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From the internet: "is what evangelicals believe based on anything more substantive than unscholarly, recent reworking of traditional mythology into literal revelation? Why is this not addressed?"

One reason it is not addressed is that it is not so simple. The writings of St. John (The Divine) of Patmos, which form the basis of the eschatology of most Christian churches, date to ca. 70 CE. John, who I - non Christian though I am - consider to be the historical Anti Christ, wrote what is known as the "Book of Revelation" or "The Apocalypse". It is hard to consider beliefs based on this book as an "unscholarly, recent reworking of traditional mythology into literal revelation" when it has always been seen as "revelation" and is still not seen as "literal".

In fact the "novelty" of current interpretation of the overtly allegorical  "Apocalypse" is itself at least three centuries old, dating to certain extremist sects of European Protestantism in the late 1600's and early 1700's, and drawing on themes tracing to Calvin in the 1500's.

For most of that period, the extremism of these interpretations was acknowledged and directly opposed by mainstream protestant theologians, dating at least to the early 1700's.

The task of orthodox Christian theologians was made more difficult - as is our own - by the fact that these eschatological extremists were split into two opposing camps - the Arminianist (Darbyist, Plymouth Brethren) "pre-millenial dispensation" camp, which held that the "Great Sucking Up" would come before the millenial apocalypse and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth (KOHOE). This group believed that all sins had been atoned for by Christ's sacrificial crucifixion, and the only requirement for salvation was the acknowlegement of the Christ as Savior.

This group was in opposition to the "Calvinist" "post millennial dispensation" group who held that the apocalypse,and return of the Christ as King could only occur after Christians had, through whatever means required, helped God along by establishing the earthly preconditions for the Return. These include the reestablishment of Israel in its traditional territory, the conversion of the Jews (ring any bells?) and the establishment of Sharia, umm, I guess that should be Old Testament Law, e.g. the 10 Commandments, as the basis of civil law on earth. (Silly things like Bush's "piece of paper", our Constitution, being suborned in the process.)

An interesting feature of this Dominionist (The Dominion of Christ on Earth, in the KOHOE) theology and political program is that any act, including any deception, dissimulation, lie, or slander, which contributes to the establishment of the Dominion is justified before God, and therefore "moral". We can easily both imagine, and find examples of this principal at work in our recent political discourse. In churches the world over it is reflected in the "steeplejacking" of congregations, where churches are subverted by ministers presenting themselves as orthodox, but who are secretly agents of Dominionist theology.

Please also see Mahanoy's June 21, 2006 DKos posting "Deconstructing the Dominionists"

These features of the pre-millenial and post-millenial varieties of the dispensational eschatology were being criticized by mainstream Christian theology even in the 1700's and earlier. The excesses and amorality of those involved in these extremist cults were defined and described in tract and sermon against them then and later.

Yet, the sects kept springing up, the bad seed alway with us, as new denominations. This was especially the case in England and the US, and less so in Europe. We should keep that in mind when contemporary heirs to the dispensationalist and Dominionist tradition who are running for President find it convenient to criticize Europe's religious traditions and practices.

After the Civil War the influence of extremist dispensational eschatology in the US was greatly enlarged by the Schofield Bible - an immensely influential commentary on the KJV of the bible which many adherents confuse with the bible itself. Schofield's personal history is mysterious and more than a bit disreputable. The source of the resources he relied upon during the years he lived in Switzerland, Land of Calvin, and in England, while writing his commentary are both unknown, and suspect. (His itinerary - St Louis, London, Switzerland - mysteriously parallels that of Aaron Burr, the Hamilton killing grandson of the famous American revivalist of the same name, decades earlier.)

In recent decades the problem of dealing with these formerly opposing extremist theologies as been compounded by an effective truce between the two of them, in which, somewhat as in "we are all dispensationalist together, pre or post millenial regardless", they have joined forces politically. As a result the politically driven program of the Dominionists has been augmented by non Dominionist, but socially conservative pre-millenial believers' votes.

The conflation of the two traditions also makes it harder to sort out exactly who is who and what is what when dealing with a particular preacher, congregation, or believer. (I once told a post millenialist that they were harder to keep sorted out than the varieties of famously schismatic Shia Islam - he figuratively "hung up" on me.)

My point is that it is both important, and difficult, to understand and deal with the tradition these folks represent, the ideas which motivate them, and the threat they represent to orthodox Christian belief, the Constitution, and our liberties and potentially our lives - (see "LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces; A "Christian" computer game - "Killing for the Kingdom" - for more on that. Think Eric Prince and Blackwater.)

Edit:
suborned >> subverted - para. 4.

Originally posted to Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:33 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is Huckabee Dominionist or only Millenialist? (9+ / 0-)

    If Dominionist, his candidacy is far more problematic that has been addressed in the MSM.

    Why has Clinton be given a free pass on her membership in "The family"

    Comments?

    The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

    by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:34:54 AM PST

    •  Huckabee will be whatever he needs to be (12+ / 0-)

      according to who he is speaking with. These people have taken the Bible and rewritten it for the purpose of control. Its time people in this Country wake up.

      "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

      by Owllwoman on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:44:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amen Sister n/t (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro, OHdog, Owllwoman

        If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

        by marykk on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:45:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Your comment implies the answer: (5+ / 0-)

        You are saying, essentially, that he is Dominionist, as DeLay. I think many others - likely Bush, as well. But I have not read enough about the theology of Bush's prayer group in Texas to say for certain.

        To get an idea of the pervasiveness of this, read the Harpers article cited in the post.

        The Dominionist habit of mind has so infected a section of religion in the US and GB that I think Tony Blair, a nominal Catholic, shares Dominionist goals and a willingness to use their means. Yet the "official" theology of their religious denomination may not be Dominionist - Catholicism has not been, and still is not, formally. (US Catholcism is perilously close, these days.)

        Based on his speech, the same is true of Romney. He wishes to conform US law to the literal Old Testament law, and has no respect or regard for our constitutional principals - tolerance, pluralism, and the separation of church and state.

        The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

        by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:59:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  re: Clinton - what "family" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk

      are you referring to?  I am guessing that since she is being "given a free pass" it can't be good.

      Arianna Huffington's post this a.m. poses the dilemma for the Republicans.  Their "base" is fine when it is only their base, but Huckabee, Romney, etc. have risen to prominence and that's just not the way it is supposed to be.  Dog wags tail, but bites owner.

      "Man's life's a vapor Full of woe. He cuts a caper, Down he goes. Down de down de down he goes.

      by JFinNe on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:01:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does this refer to her "Prayer Group" of sisters (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alizard

        when she was dealing with her husband's infidelities in front of the world stage? She has mentioned them several times and some of them were members of the Heritage Foundation and other "Conservative" backbone organizations that backed Bush.

        All I want for Christmas is...IMPEACHMENT!

        by Temmoku on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 06:56:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  "The Family" is (4+ / 0-)

        described here:
        Harpers Magazine, March, 2003

        I hope you'll have a good read.

        The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

        by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:45:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good Grief! Didn't know whether to laugh or cry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim Pivonka

          so I laughed.  The article brings to mind the saying "The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys."

          "Man's life's a vapor Full of woe. He cuts a caper, Down he goes. Down de down de down he goes.

          by JFinNe on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:19:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Abosolutely The Gayest Thing I've Ever Read (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim Pivonka

          I mean, even if I were having sex with a man at this very moment, I'd say "Now that story is really gay."

        •  Jeff Sharlet is here among us (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim Pivonka

          though unfortunately, not on this diary. However, he was on this diary last night posting as "Ishmael".

          The diary discussed a new article written by Jeff Sharlet and Kathryn Joyce called Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics.

          Hillary's supporters went nuts, though judging from hundreds of their comments, their sanity was questionable to begin with.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 12:14:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I just saw the comments on the new article (0+ / 0-)

            While most don't throw much new light on the article subject, they do shed light on the mentality of HRC's supporters.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 12:29:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Everybody over there at MJ seems to have (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alizard

            gone a bit nuts. Interesting thread. Shows how helpful a policy of sorting out the trolls can be to the level of discourse. Not being able to paragraph does not help comprehensibility, either.

            A post from a Canadian reader reminded me of a useful source - I criticise it for its lack of coverage of Dominionism, and what appears to be a rather strange didactic goal. But as a short recent history of the movers and shakers in US and Canadian Evangelicism, it seems very good.

            Read: The Evangelical Sanhedrin and Republicanism; by Ron Dart, Vive Le Canada, 8-09-2006.

            The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

            by Jim Pivonka on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 02:28:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  There is an interesting comment in the MJ thread (0+ / 0-)

            "Gary" posted this:

            "Look, Dominionism is NOT mere Christianity. Dominionism and other extremism makes the Christian faith LOOK BAD, like Islamic Extremism makes all Muslims look bad. And the reverse, when BOTH go on the defensive. The whole point of the Enlightenment Age was to inject REASON and ETHICS into government and public philosophy. Religion -- ironically -- can justify sidelining reason, ethics, and even basic morality. And it can do this in the name of morality, narrow definitions, dishonest emphasis. Google "Council for National Policy". Christians, Nazis, KKK, Reverend Moon, CIA, Ollie North, etc. And now it looks like Hillary too. This is NOT FUNNY and NOT to be taken lightly." . . . Posted by: Gary September 6, 2007 1:34:35 ^

            The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

            by Jim Pivonka on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 03:30:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  HRC's current "the family connection" (0+ / 0-)

        is discussed here posted last night.

        As for the diarist's question of "Why has Hillary been given a free pass", it's because hillbots who are just as batshit as any Dominionist will attack anybody who dares to ask critical questions about HRC in public. Usually without bothering to read the linked article.

        The diary probably contains hundreds of examples of this by now. Anyone who questions my use of the hillbot is invited to click the above link.

        The majority of HRC's followers I saw on that diary were people I have never seen on the majority of the diaries by the Religious Right experts around here. I presume from this that they have no interest in the theocratic attempt to take over America unless their Leader is involved.

        The Kossack Religious Right experts I know of are Frederick Clarkson, the Jeff Sharlet (who posts here as Ishmael) who wrote the article, dogemperor, and troutfishing) Judging from the content of the diary, we have a new expert in our number.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 12:09:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am a student, not an expert, for sure. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lcrp, alizard, Pariah Dog

          Much of what I have learned I discovered through Frederick Clarkson's "talk2action.org" and the people who are published and linked to there, and the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. And a bit from earlier blogging on the history of Darbyism and the Plymouth Brethren.

          It has surprised me how difficult it is to get my mind to focus on this material - the will to deny its importance is so strong, the unpleasantness of its implications so distateful, and the extent and complexity of the personal and doctrinal relationsips so vast that I get real, honest to god headaches when I do try. So I hope any error resulting from "premature abandonment of method" in trying to write about these things can be both corrected and forgiven.

          The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

          by Jim Pivonka on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 01:05:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Understood (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jim Pivonka, lcrp

            I understand completely why you get headaches sifting through this crap. How can one make any sense of a movement that can and will say anything at any given moment, even if it directly contradicts something they said five minutes ago?

            Example: Last time out, I recall HRC flying the banner of her Jewish roots (then again weren't they all). This time she's playing footsie with the Dominionists (whose goals include converting the Jews).

            Example: The Christian Reich constantly brays about how this is a "Christian Nation, founded on the principals of Christianity as guided by our founder's Christian faith." And yet, simultaneously, "consider democracy a manifestation of ungodly pride."

            Well, Which. Is. It?

            When you're dealing with people who consider any "deception, dissimulation, lie, or slander, which contributes to the establishment of the Dominion is justified before God, and therefore moral," how is one to believe, or make sense of, anything they say? We should simply consider the possibility that they have no real interest in "God" or his will, but are perhaps self-diefying egomaniacs intent on ruling a world of fawning sheep.

            Meddle not in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup.

            by Pariah Dog on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:32:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I just saw the ad (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snakelass

      for the Huckster and I do not agree that it will help him.  Anyone attempting to spread that  sucrosey oleo on the elections is going to get blasted.  I doubt Iowans are so comfortable in their lives that the shlocky ad will lull them into a warm and comfy feeling about the Huckster.  People are fully into problems or at least beginning to see that hard times are just over the horizon.  His filtered crap isn't going to get many over to his side.  I am grossly insulted by the ad.  Stuff made of paternalistic desire to drug us all into compliance.

      "Do you want to tumble? Let's tumble." Stephen Colbert

      by tobendaro on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:04:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're obviously not from Iowa. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, tobendaro, Pariah Dog

        I'm not going to take anything away from a group of people who are so easily comforted by ideas that are in direct conflict to every other facet of their lives; however I don't have to join them either.

        Take a good look at the maps of the Urban Archepelago and then you will realize that outside the cities, we are a country full of people who are lucky they can read; it's not hard to sell someone on a pretty wild idea if they've never had anything to compare it to.

        Iowa is not the only state that has people far too easily comforted by ideas that contradict all of the other ideas that make their modern life comfortable, and even possible. And we who have computers, broadband connections, the upper eschalon cable/satellite channels, and an education that lasted longer than sixth grade also find it impossible to believe such simple ideas would ever sell.

        But we're outnumbered, tobendaro. Only two things are universal; hydrogen and stupidity. And George Carlin pointed out a universal truth of mathematics that is too often overlooked:

        "Think about how dumb the average guy is, then realize that half of them are dumber than that."

        Sort of explains the entire 2000/2004 election cycles (fraud notwithstanding), and why guys like Huckabee are even on the map.

        I think it was P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute", but it was I who noticed that if you throw in Terrorists, Jesus, and the Lake of Fire you can get it down to about 2.7 seconds.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:57:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim Pivonka

          you are depressing.  I was thinking that most people are seeing the light, not the one at the end of the tunnel but the one that is shining on the results the r's have left us with.  Life can only get so hard before everyone will be blaming the administration.  I guess I really don't know much about those who are so different from me.  Most people in my sphere have turned on the pres and the republicans.

          "Do you want to tumble? Let's tumble." Stephen Colbert

          by tobendaro on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:22:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, tobendaro. I make no apology for being (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tobendaro, RevenantX, Pariah Dog

            a downer, because I think the perennial optimists are going to kill us all. Read my diary on the "smirk",and meditate on it for a while. I have nightmares about Abu Gonzo, for that man was the master of how to smile when he was screwed so hard there was no hope. But there he was, making a fool and a fraud of himself in front of the world and for all eternity, smiling like there was a girl under the desk giving him a hummer.

            I believe we must see genuine prison sentences for many in the Bush administration or this country will never be taken seriously ever again; either by the world at large or even ourselves.

            Optimism is great for soothing the soul; optimisim is also good for finding alternative strategies. But optimism can be utterly fatal as well, and I can name ten off the top of my head:

            - The Titanic is an unsinkable ship.

            - Neville Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler.  

            - The 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster.

            - "I'll quit smoking when I get sick."

            - Dale Earnhardt's sole use of open-face helmets.

            - "I did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky"

            - "We Will be greeted as liberators."

            - How can Kerry loose in 2004 with Bush's numbers so low?

            - "Home ownership is at an all time high" (GWB state of the union speech from less than two years ago)

            And for the all-time winner:

            - "Bush must be keeping us safe, because we haven't been attacked in the six years since 9/11/2001"

            I have been lucky/unfortunate enough to have lived and worked amongst a wide array of Ph D's and people with less than a sixth-grade education; people who made millions in their lives and people who have lived in poverty all their lives; and I am an atheist who was raised a child of two people who did not believe in god but descended from the strictest of Roman Catholics which also comprised the remainder of all my other relatives. I've been exposed to a lot of different viewpoints.

            And the one thing I can say with near certainty is that if one can train their mind to accept what the Judeo-Christian churches are selling on Sundays, then that mind can be trained to believe almost anything.

            And I think that many are seeing the light, but they are counterbalanced by those who don't want to see the light becoming even more entrenched in their old views and making even more vicious attacks on anyone who wants the truth as we know it to start to change the policies.

            Having said that, I hope the optimists are right. I'm just not going to fool myself because the letdown will be brutal. Maybe you can invite me over to spend time in your circle? (Smile)

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:54:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  My daughter, grands, and Ex are in (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tobendaro, Pariah Dog

            Marin County, north of San Francisco. It's a terrible place to get any idea of what is going on in the middle of the country.

            Try listening to AM, and even FM, radio as you drive across the intermountain West - California's Central Valley, Nevada, utah, Colorado, Kansas. Don't reflexively turn off the Winger and Felon Talk radio shows, and especially not the religious right preachers. Think of the people who are listening, believing, and sending money they don't have to keep these programs broadcasting. Think of the oilmen who fund them. Think of Mitt Romney's Clearwater Broadcasting investments, and how that network supports them.

            See if you can find the ACLJ program, and listen to them talk about the coming Kingdom and how they are working with the European Parliament, very closely - that would be Jim Ryun and his son, if I recall...

            Then go home and try feeling safe in your bed at night.

            The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

            by Jim Pivonka on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 01:17:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I live in PA, 90 miles from NYC and PHL, and I (0+ / 0-)

              have Rush/Hannity/Savage/O'Reilly on seven AM stations, not one suggestion of Air America anywhere in my future unless I am online.

              Think about all the people who spend their time on the road and wouldn't know what a browser was unless they picked up a Reader's Digest condensed book.

              My neighbor, who I like and admire as a person who is a damn hard working man, married 35 years and father of a daughter who graduated from High School with a 3.9 and is doing the same her third year in College said the following to me:

              "The only problem with Gitmo is it isn't big enough"

              "Yeah, I know your story about that ONE guy who was born in Brooklyn and arrested at O'Hare (Jose Padilla), but who cares if we torture terrorists, they are TERRORISTS"

              "I drive around this state in a truck seven days a week, and I can tell you there are more trees now than there ever were before. They're planting trees everywhere."

              "Al Gore's whining has made it impossible for there ever to be a fair election again. Now all someone has to do is cry "dirty tricks" like Gore did, and we'll never be able to trust any election results forever more. This is all Al Gore's fault".

              Even if I could get him Air America 24/7 in his truck, you think I could change his mind?

              George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

              by snafubar on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 08:21:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Hey ! Stop that! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim Pivonka, snafubar

          You're breaking one of the rules.

          Not contemplating the abysmal ignorance and gullibility of the American electorate is the only way we can keep from flinging ourselves off the nearest bridge. The fundies supply a justification for the ignorance and require the cultivation of gullibility.

          A person of definite character and purpose who comprehends our way of thought is sure to exert power over us. He cannot altogether be resisted; because, if he understands us, he can make us understand him, through the word, the look, or other symbol, which both of us connect with the common sentiment or idea; and thus by communicating an impulse he can move the will.

            ---Charles Horton Cooley (1864-1929), U.S. sociologist. Human Nature and the Social Order, ch. 4 (1902).

          The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

          by NCrefugee on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:38:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I really love this quote. (0+ / 0-)

            It is exact, precise, true. And that it comes from 1902 makes it all the more delicious. Thanks for sharing it.

            The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

            by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:33:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's a powerful quote; strong tagline too (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jim Pivonka, RevenantX

            I was born in upstate NY, moved to NC when I was twelve. I was transplanted into another world where the first question I was asked after my name was "what church do you go to?", and when the answer was "I don't" found that there were no more questions.

            I'll see if I can get it posted on Photobucket or something, but there is a picture someone sent me of a young man with an angry scowl on his face carrying a picket sign: The sign reads "GOD HATES BOOK LEARNERS" with a Biblical quote.

            And to those of us who can think outside one book, that quote has such a double meaning: it's obvious the sign carrier intended to express (G)od's hatred for those who read books that can make the Bible look uninformed; and yet to a crowd of people who make their lives centered around a book - THE book - it could be interpreted that (G)od hates people that can't get their head to function outside of the Bible as well.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:21:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  If He'll Vanish And Leave a Pile of Laundry...... (5+ / 0-)

      why does he want to be President?

      I want to hear this explained in great detail.

      •  Silly Democrat...who needs an explanation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bernardpliers

        or detail when you can have faith?

        That's the whole point of "believing", it seems obvious to me at least, so that knowledge, evidence, or explanations are no longer neccessary.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:41:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The people who have taken the time to understand (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, snakelass, alizard, RevenantX

        all this in any detail - well, they all seem to believe it. Makes it hard to get information that is not colored by the belief system.

        But my take on it is that Huckabee will turn out to be a "real" Dominionist, which is a variety of postmillenialism, in which the "Great Sucking Up" or rapture only occurs AFTER the world has been perfected by humanity - making possible the establishment of the KOHOE, followed by the piles of laundry.... or something like that.

        To deal with these people, I truly believe, requires some understanding of their minds, and beliefs, and intellectual and social history - as we are learning in Iraq, and will learn in Iran if Cheney Bush get their war there. But gaining this understanding requires wandering down corridors most of us would rather not travel.

        Consider though, that their minds are much closer to the Medievalism of our ancient forebears, and to that of the mullahs and Ayatollahs of revanchist, radical Islam today than they are to our minds.

        Bush and Osama are of a single mind, in this regard - dedicated to the proposition that the Kingdom of God or Allah must be brought about by the hand of a man guided by God's word. That is what we are faced with - we will not be able to understand it or deal with it until we "get it".

        The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

        by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:14:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And The Less They Know, The More Certain They Are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RevenantX

          I've always  want to ask a Millenialist "Are you a premillenialist or postmillenialist?" just to enjoy the blank look I'd get.

          •  I have asked (4+ / 0-)

            and a blank look is indeed what you will get. A Baptist minister started spouting pre-mil crap at me once  (1982 I think )and when questioned did not understand the history or the fact that there were variations.

            I had to rundown the high points and explain how  his denomination had been hijacked in 78.

            He was stunned that an atheist/agnostic could know more about the sordid history of the church than he did.

            The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

            by NCrefugee on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:48:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  More on '78? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              alizard, RevenantX

              If you are around - do you have a story about the '78 hijacking that you could do a diary on, or commment here, if shorter? Or links to sources of information you could post?

              I assume you know the site "talk2action.org", and the work done there by a number of good people, including "Mainstream Baptist".

              The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

              by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:18:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mainstream Baptist (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jim Pivonka

                Has the most detailed info on the subject I have found on the net. I read talk2action regularly.

                This is one you might find interesting. It ties Gary North to the takeover. (Note Gary North is R.J. Rushdoony's son-in-law)

                http://txbc.org/...

                "The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."
                -- Gary North - Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism, Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989, p. 87

                **********
                Our critics so far have been utterly incompetent. How do I know this? Because I know the "soft underbelly" of the Christian Reconstruction position. Every insider knows where the weak chinks are in his movement's armor. The best test of a critic's mastery of his opponent's system is his ability to go straight for his opponent's weakest spots. He will not be sidetracked. If he can do this, he will draw blood. He will create consternation and confusion in the opponent's camp.

                Gary North, Christian Reconstruction: What It Is, What It Isn't (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1991), p. 175.

                ----------------

                The church today has fallen prey to the heresy of democracy.

                R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 747.

                The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

                by NCrefugee on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 06:00:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  For the same reason (0+ / 0-)

        Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins charge $12 a pop, and are raking it in with both hands, for books about how aaaaaany day now they're going to be sbatched out of their jammies... and you should too.

        Yeah, it begs the question "then why do you need all that money?" But that question never occurs to the people shelling it out.  

        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup.

        by Pariah Dog on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:23:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I hope this makes the Rec list for a week (6+ / 0-)

    This is the diary that needs to be as popular as Oprah for at least as long as Nov 2009. Because the true believer of Armageddon may be in office at this moment, and it's time we recognize that his last 18 months of "diplomacy" may be designed to start wars, not prevent them.

    Hey - he did it once, who's dumb enough to admit he won't at least try it again. Enough of us were dumb enough to let him do it once already...

    I invite all of you to watch the last episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos series; he foretold a tragic tale of the end of humanity resulting from the stockpiles of nuclear weapons amassed by the then Soviet Union (don't forget to tell Fred Thompson that it has broken up for almost 20 years now) and the US.

    I ask this of you all, because even though the "nuclear football" is no longer likely to be the way it ends as predicted in "War Games", the end will be even more tragic.

    It is tragic because we may very well be written into the history of the universe as the only intelligent species who surrendered that ability for a bizarre story in a book. The alien species that finds our charred remains (or in another few million years our mutated ancestors may dig up what's left and find for themselves) will never understand.

    We spent millions of years evolving intelligence beyond the animals only to find out that in the end, the one species who had more power than any other to alter the world around it for the better decided to surrender that power to the 2000 year old mysticism of 'the greatest story ever told'.

    We learned how to be smart enough to stop thinking.

    Wow.

    I applaud you for putting this diary together. We may all be in your debt...

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:14:41 AM PST

    •  We seem to rely too much on our mirror neurons. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, Carib and Ting

      "We learned how to be smart enough to stop thinking."

      Humans may have created a society capable of destroying itself and much of life on the planet through the evolution of "mirror neurons" which make thinking unnecessary, but enhance the transmission of technique from on individual to another and from one generation to the next.

      There have been big dustups about this recently - arguments between individual analitical thinking and creativity and those who place their trust in the transmission of technique and ideas to individuals by cultures and civilizations.

      We are witnessing how this plays out "in real life" I think.

      Thanks very much for your encouragement, by the way. Very much indeed.

      The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

      by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:23:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  this could be your next diary n/t (0+ / 0-)

        God bless our tinfoil hearts.

        by aitchdee on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:30:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, right after the financial meltdown, maybe.. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aitchdee

          I have done some notes, a few months back. If I can find them I'll advance it in the que. Thanks for the positive.

          The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

          by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:25:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  relevant quotes (3+ / 0-)

        It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all.
        -- Carl Sagan
        -----------------------

        We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.
        -- Carl Sagan

        The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

        by NCrefugee on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:53:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The story may be more complicated, but the people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Owllwoman

    who believe the end times theology most certainly aren't.

    Why do you think Rove adopted them?

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:18:58 AM PST

  •  Very small minor ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim Pivonka

    ... nit.  Forgive me, but this is important and well-written.  Surely you don't mean "suborned".  Perhaps "subordinated" ... I'm not sure.

    Re: the important stuff:  keep writing.  Thanks.

    President Kill and Vice President Torture. Why do we allow them to rule us?

    by Yellow Canary on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:25:58 PM PST

    •  Looks like it fits to me (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Pivonka, RevenantX

      Verb 1. suborn - incite to commit a crime or an evil deed; "He suborned his butler to cover up the murder of his wife"
      corrupt, debase, debauch, demoralise, demoralize, deprave, misdirect, pervert, profane, vitiate, subvert - corrupt morally or by intemperance or sensuality; "debauch the young people with wine and women"; "Socrates was accused of corrupting young men"; "Do school counselors subvert young children?"; "corrupt the morals"

      The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

      by NCrefugee on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:56:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  subvert, corrupt morally - exactly... (0+ / 0-)

        but I made the change to "subvert", for the sake of directness and the "first glance" effect. Thanks for checking and posting this definition. I appreciate that.

        The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

        by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:22:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I need to have been specific ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... I was referring to the use of "suborn" at the end of the third paragraph after the jump, viz.: "Silly things like Bush's 'piece of paper', our Constitution, being suborned in the process."  I think we agree that "suborn" must be used with people, as it is in all the examples you give.  Bush may have suborned Republicans, just as church leaders may have suborned those who trust their religious lives to them (which was the usage the diarist changed), but I find "Bush suborned the Constitution" to be awkward to the point of meaninglessness.  "Subvert" may be what the author means:  Bush subverted the Constitution.

        I apologize for the confusion and the threadjacking.

        President Kill and Vice President Torture. Why do we allow them to rule us?

        by Yellow Canary on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:12:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yellow Canary

          I left the suborning/subordination of the Constitution, after noting it and considering the useage..

          It seemed to me, at least, that the Constitution has been not only subverted, but its observance corrupted by the Cheney Bush maneuvers to establish a "unitary executive" free from review and balance by the Legislative and Judicial branches. And by infringments upon the people's civil liberties, and the rest of the long list.

          So.. suborned in the sense of 'converted to a different use and character, subverted, corrupted' seems to me an accurate reflection of what they have done to the Constitution.

          Thanks again for calling my attention to the subtleties of the word's useage.

          The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

          by Jim Pivonka on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:42:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  subverted, ... I fix.. Thanks! n/t (0+ / 0-)

      The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

      by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:05:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is such an important Diary (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim Pivonka, alizard, RevenantX

     We really need to know the enemy.

     I've met these people -- the religious right took over the Washington State Republican party in the 80s. They had/have no interest in democracy -- their aim is for a theocracy -- with their god in charge.

     This group of the radical religious right is trying to run their candidate for Governor again.

     They are busy on all levels elected office -- they started on the GOP Precinct and moved to the school board, county offices, State elected offices, Federal offices. They are religious fanatics -- and they will NOT tolerate any sort of democracy.

     They are the enemy -- and they are out to win. Compromise isn't part of their vocabulary.

     I'm predicting that once the democratic candidate is chosen -- we are going to see the dirtiest, nastiest campaign in our life times. What was done to Kerry will be nothing compared to what this band of zealots will do to the Democratic candidate. We will have the fight of our lives -- all the stops will be pulled.

      Way back in 1844 -- Jesus was expected to return and there was fanatical movement to get ready for his "return". History does repeat itself with new twists added to keep us guessing.

     

     

    •  Thanks for the information in your comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard

      I was not aware of the action in Washington state. I suspect, based on slight contact with with the SW part of the state, that the same thing may be true in Oregon.

      Some of the folks who write and are linked to at the Talk2Action.org site have written about the process by which people who intitially organized to subvert and "capture" religious congregations and churches realized that the same methods and deceptions could be applied to political action, and how that has created the political power of the religious right. That site is has a wealth of resources, if you want to follow up.

      The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

      by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:44:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Know Nothings" and "Anti-Masons" all over again. (0+ / 0-)

      "History does repeat itself with new twists added to keep us guessing."

      I suggested in an abreviated posting in another context that this was another round of the 19th Century "Know Nothings" and "Anti-Masons" boil over. The bloggers I was responding to were near enough my age I had some hope they'd know what I referred to.

      I wonder how many under 35 got that information in their H.S. US history studies? I suspect few enough that it helps to explain the pickle we are in.

      The source of all error is impatience, the premature abandonment of method, a delusive fixation on illusion - Kafka

      by Jim Pivonka on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:54:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ReligiousRightWatch.com glossary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim Pivonka

    There's a glossary I maintain on Religious Right Watch that might also serve as a resource for readers wanting to know more about terms such as evangelicalism, dispensationalism, apocalypticism, and the rise of the religious right within the GOP and nationally.

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