Daily Kos

Paul Krugman, Robert Reich, and the Primary Wars

Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:07:43 AM PDT

When Paul Krugman wrote his first column about Barack Obama and Social Security on November 16th called "Played for a Sucker", I didn't think too much of it, figuring he was just using Obama to make a larger point about social security.  But when he wrote a column on November 30th about Obama and health care called "Mandates and Mudslinging", I realized there was more to it.  And when Robert Reich wrote a blog post on December 3rd entitled "Why is HRC stooping So Low?" about Hillary Clinton, social security, and health care, I knew it was about more than just Krugman.

Finally, on December 7th, Krugman wrote another column about Obama and health care, this time called "The Mandate Muddle"  It was then that I knew for sure: these two distinguished liberals, one a NY Times columnist and Professor at Princeton and the other a former Secretary of Labor and Professor at Berkeley, had entered the primary wars.

Here at Daily Kos, we're used to the primary wars affecting our community.  
I became aware of them during the 2004 primaries, when friends here became enemies before becoming friends again after it was all over.  We have quite a few members of the community here now who openly support a Presidential candidate and write diaries either promoting that candidate or attacking the positions of other candidates.  When this happens, we usually take the attacks with a grain of salt.  That doesn't mean we dismiss them out of hand.  We simply approach their diaries with the knowledge that they support one of the other candidates.  So if they provide a fair and honest criticism, we can address it. However, if they veer off and launch an unfair and unjustified attack, we can call them out on it.

Just like any diarist here, Krugman and Reich have the right to critize a candidate they disagree with.   And just like any diarist here, they deserve to get called out when they cross the line with unfair attacks.  
While Krugman and Reich make some substantive policy points in their columns, they also go much further. In Krugman's case, this includes accusing Obama of spreading "right-wing talking points".  In Reich's case, it is accusing of Hillary of spreading a "series of slurs". And while there have been many diaries addressing the policy points raised, there hasn't been much discussion of these accusations, which have really been the source of much of the controversy surrounding their columns. So that's what I'm going to focus on in this diary.  It certainly doesn't mean we can or should dismiss those substantive points made in their columns

In his first column, while Krugman calls Obama a "sucker" and a "fool", he didn't go as far as he would later go in criticizing Obama for using the word "crisis" in reference to social security.
Nevertheless, he was unfair in singling out Obama for such criticism.  Here's an excerpt from Krugman's column:

Lately, Barack Obama has been saying that major action is needed to avert what he keeps calling a "crisis" in Social Security  — most recently in an interview with The National Journal.  
http://www.nytimes.com/...

While he suggests that Obama has used that word "crisis" before, he provides no evidence for it and I could find none when searching for other instances.  In fact, other than that one time, Obama's been consistent in saying there was no social security crisis.  For example at the Philadelphia debate, Obama said:

"I absolutely agree that Social Security is not in crisis."
http://www.nytimes.com/...

Of course, you wouldn't know that if you read Krugman's article or most of the subsequent media/blog coverage.

Meanwhile, Krugman neglected to say a single word about the fact that candidate Edwards used the exact same word ("crisis") in reference to Social Security (both in this campaign and as far back as 2002).  For example, here is Edwards in October using the word in the exact same context that Obama would later use it, chiding Hillary Clinton for not addressing questions about Social Security:

"The American people need a president who will be straight with them -- who will be honest about the greatest challenges our government faces. And one of the most important of those is the looming Social Security crisis."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...

Here are some other links to Edwards, from as recent as 2 weeks ago and far back as 2002, talking about a Social Security crisis, calling it an enormous issue, and talking about the problems it faces:
http://www.youtube.com/...
http://news.yahoo.com/...
http://www.gwu.edu/...

The point of this isn't to attack Edwards or argue about Social Security.  However, it does raise questions about why Krugman chose to single out Obama.  Until Krugman pointed it out in his column and on TV, Obama's comments in that National Journal radio interview had not been publicized.  And it's not as though Krugman has been ignoring Edwards.  This diary by an Edwards supporter has links to all the glowing words of praise he's given Edwards, including a number of columns solely devoted to praising or defending Edwards.  Meanwhile, I couldn't find any negative words at all for Edwards in his columns.  Nor could I find many positive words for Obama or Hillary (who he has criticized a number of times, even going so far as to say she might be the next Grover Cleveland), except of course when he was praising them for following Edwards' lead.  Now if Krugman is giving Edwards preferential treatment, that's his right as an opinion columnist.  It's just something to note.

Reich's blog post follows the same pattern as Krugman's columns  It starts tough by asking why Hillary is "stooping so low", then turns to more substantive points, before it ends by unfairly going on the attack:

HRC’s campaign, by contrast, is singularly lacking in conviction about anything. Her pollster, Mark Penn, has advised her to take no bold positions and continuously seek the political center, which is exactly what she’s been doing.

A Hillary supporter could just as easily substitute Obama and David Axelrod's name in there and it would have just as much validity.  It's a cheap shot.
He then says:

...this series of slurs doesn't serve HRC well.

 The problem is that Reich never references any "slurs".  Surely pointing out flaws, real or not, with your opponent's plans on Social Security or health care is not a slur.  The closest he comes is Hillary's answer to a question about whether she intended to bring up points about Obama's character, but I've never seen an actual quote of what she was asked and her answer ("It's beginning to look a lot like that") hardly fits the definition of a slur.  So it looks like Reich is trying to conflate legitimate policy disagreements with slurs as a way of attacking Hillary.

So what is Reich's motive?  Like Krugman, he has not announced a favorite candidate, but it is equally clear from his previous blog entries who he supports and who he doesn't.
Here are links to additional posts where he defends and praises Obama:
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/...
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/...
And while he did once call Hillary "one of the smartest people I know", he's quick to follow it up with references to "her movement to the right" and "her political timidity", before closing with: " I wish she'd either step aside or show some genuine outrage."
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/...
For those who question the idea of looking at his past work to see who he supports, note that Reich himself advocated doing that to a reporter who wrote a negative piece about Obama.  And if someone here who claimed to be undecided was writing articles bashing one candidate while praising/defending another, we wouldn't have any doubt what the deal as.

Back to Krugman.  In his articles on Obama and health care mandates, he did almost the same thing Reich did.  Krugman mistakes policy disagreements not for "slurs", but with "right-wing talking points".  Like Reich, Krugman never provides any actual quotes of these supposed "right wing talking points".  He does go on to describe the common objections regarding enforcement, subsidies, and forcing people to buy insurance, but those are hardly "right-wing talking points".  They are legitimate concerns raised by people from across the political spectrum.  Just look at the debate going on in California right now:

http://news.yahoo.com/...
That's why California unions have been so suspicious of compulsory insurance and have pushed Democrats to demand higher subsidies for the nearly 5 million residents who have no insurance on any given day.
...
But Democrats are nervous about making it mandatory and Republicans reject the whole idea of expanding government's role in health care.

Here at Daily Kos and across the liberal blogosphere, there are many who make the same arguments against mandates, and not all because they support Obama, but also some who support single-payer health care.  It's possible these people are all wrong, but that doesn't mean they believe "right-wing talking points".  To top it off, Krugman even goes so far as to compare Obama's language (which he never provides a specific example of) to Giuliani's use of the phrase "socialized medicine", which is just a cheap shot like Reich's on Clinton.

Does Krugman also think Edwards was echoing right-wing talking points when he dismissed single-payer health care by saying "Do you think the American people want the same people who responded to Hurricane Katrina to run their healthcare system?" to Rolling Stone.  I guess we'll never know.  Despite those being similar to the words Mitt Romney has used, Krugman hasn't criticized Edwards for it and probably never will.

I don't think any of this discredits Krugman or Reich as commentators.  We certainly shouldn't dismiss the substantive points they've made.  It's just that, like many here, they got caught up in the primary wars.
And like any good primary war, once its over, we can make up and move on as we were before it began.

Tags: Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, Social Security, Health Care, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Election 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 45 comments

  •  Sorry if it's a bit long (20+ / 0-)

    I've been adding to this diary for a while now and then let it sit to let the controversy die down. Since I wrote it, both Krugman and Reich have written additional columns on the primary.   I don't address those columns here, but they do fit in with what I'm talking about.  In his latest column, Reich even goes after Krugman for going after Obama.  He somewhat misses the point since the problem isn't that Krugman is going after him, but how he's doing it.  And Reich is guilty of the same sins in that regard.

    Since this deals with the primary wars, I realize a number of people will already have their minds set on this and may not even be open to any discussion.  Still, I do think it raises some points that haven't been mentioned before and I'd love to hear if you think I'm way off base (wouldn't be the first time) or if I'm onto something.

    •  I Am Confused By Your Logic (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Salo

      not sure how Edwards got into the mix. If you think Krugman and Reich are doing to "hit" wouldn't it be for Clinton?

      •  No (7+ / 0-)

        I'm not sure why they're doing it.  But it seems clear that Krugman has unfairly gone after Obama, while praising Edwards and giving him a pass for doing the same things Obama has.  That's where Edwards comes into it.  Meanwhile, Reich has done a similar thing in going after Clinton, while praising Obama.

        •  Could it be they're doing it because (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MattBellamy

          they're no different than the rest of us and opining about shit we do as well? I know a guy who works at a very prestigious university and is considered one of the foremost authorities in the field of astro-physics. If you saw the movie with Matt Damon as a boy genius, this guy surpasses that. However, he has been proved wrong more times than he's been right. When you read columns by so-called experts in every field, politics, economics or even baseball, you as the reader of their information have the right to disagree. Krugman and Reich are extremely brilliant men. Albert Einstein was an extremely brilliant man and he was wrong more times than he was right throughout his life.

          You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

          by tazz on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:56:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good points (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MmeVoltaire, tazz

            For some reason, I've always had this false notion that distinguished professors like these two were too good to get into the mud of politics with the rest of us.  The most involved they would get would be to stand above us, emotionally detached from the proceedings, with facts and figures at the helm.  In reality, they have their favorite candidates too and they're just as susceptible as we are to letting their biases cloud their judgment.

            •  Krugman is aware of what needs to be done (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              LaEscapee

              to barter for the introduction of a national public plan.   reich evidently doesn't realize there will be demands from their side...

              "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

              by Salo on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 06:57:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  see this point about Mandates. (0+ / 0-)

      KUcinich's people are correct--it is a bribe to Republicans and the Insurance lobby in exchange for creating a public programme to compete with private firms.  

      I would be content to negotiate away regulation of private firms if tha public programme could be set up.   The mandates give the promise of a temporary expansion of a customer base that is low risk to private firms.

      The mandates can be promised and the regulation could be traded in EXCHANGE for the gold standard public programme.

      I fail to see what Obama is offering the Republican lobby to sweeten the medicine.

      Mandates are a spoon full of sugar for the Republucans to help the medicine go down.

      What will Obama offer in exchange for setting up a public programme? He's got nothing to barter with as far as I can tell.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 06:55:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is the point (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Yoshimi

        Mandates are a spoon full of sugar for the Republucans to help the medicine go down.

        If mandates are just a sop to the Republicans and the industry, then why attack Obama as not being sufficiently "progressive" enough if doesn't go along?

    •  SCUMBAG !!! (0+ / 0-)

      This is to say Krugman is a scumbag in my opinion. There's a more civil way to express your preference of one candidate over another.
      For a man his pedigree, it's a shame!!

  •  Your reference to Edwards in Rolling Stone... (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Piotr, clarkent, dkmich, relentless, jct, LaEscapee

    completely takes the quote out of context.

    He was asking if we want the incompetency and neglect of Bush and Brownie to run anything.  Can you imagine the health care system they would create and how poorly they would administer it?

    He was not using a right wing talking point or dismissing single payer, and it is inaccurate to say or imply he was.

    Thus, there would be no reason for Krugman to say anything.

    •  Did you look at the Rolling Stone article? (6+ / 0-)

      If anything, I put it in a better context.

      Edwards is also careful to temper his progressivism with more centrist positions. Speaking to Rolling Stone, Edwards refused to rule out recommitting U.S. forces to Iraq to halt a genocide, and he even demonized single-payer health care: "Do you think the American people want the same people who responded to Hurricane Katrina to run their health-care system?"

      Now tell me how I took it out of context.

      In any case, the point isn't to attack Edwards.  Everyone says dumb things and maybe he meant it differently that the Rolling Stone reporter took it.  However, if Obama had said it, you know Krugman would be attacking him for it in his next 2 or 3 columns.

      •  inconclusive quote (0+ / 0-)

        There was a similar problem with a quote of Hillary Clinton "denigrating" atheists.  In this case, this is a snippet that allows another interpretation, "the same people" after all being Busheviks, and the journalist making an interpretation without context.  In Clinton case, the journalist paraphrased Clinton to suggest that according to her, religious motivation is necessary for charity to be effective, while she could merely say correctly that religious motivations makes effective charities.  When a journalist makes a judgment without providing the exact words or context, a critic should hold his fire before going ballistic.

        Now, if Obama wants to be defended on the grounds that he is unjustly suspected of being consistent...

        Social Security crisis/non-crisis is a banana skin of an issue too.  There is a problem of preparing the budget for paying back the loan to Social Security trust fund, and a politician has to be honest about that.  It is waaaay premature to see any need to restructure/cut Social Security benefit.  If Obama campaign would issue a clarification that they mean the former not the latter, the issue would be over.

        •  Missing the point (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Aexia, Yoshimi, chicago jeff, Akonitum

          Once again, I'm not interested in attacking Edwards here.
          However, I noticed Edwards supporters had no problem with Krugman attacking Obama for supposed "right-wing talking points" while including no quotes or references, much less context.  The only thing he ever provides is the single word "crisis".
          As far as Social Security benefits, Obama has said on numerous occasions that he is opposed to cutting benefits and has stated that one of his main goals is protecting those benefits.

          •  Touche (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MattBellamy

            OIne problem is that I have read Krugman for years, I bought two of his books and I trust him.  Thing would be simpler if he were a candidate.

            So there is a general schema that out there there exists "lines of arguments" and if one uses one, he/she is expected to endorse the other and there is ample room for splitting a hair in a wrong way.

            On top of it, the codes change, as I elaborated on Social Security.  Krugman made it clear that to him, healthcare reform is the death ground of progressive politics.  [On difficult ground, press on.  On encircled ground, devise strategies. On death ground, fight. ---Sun Tsao.]  Hopefully, it is difficult for us, "death" for the oppenents.

            •  I'm a fan of Krugman's as well (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Yoshimi, Akonitum

              I've been reading him since he started at the NY Times and I picked up Conscience of a Liberal even though I still haven't gotten around to reading it yet.  Like I said in the diary though, even the best of us can get caught up in the primary wars.  

          •  What about the mandates? (0+ / 0-)

            Obama has become an outright critic.

            If one did not know it was him speaking, one might assume it was a Republican uttering those statements.

      •  Find ANY other quote that is similar... (0+ / 0-)

        to this on the matter and supports a right wing frame.  

        I read the entire article when it came out.

        Krugman's objection is that Obama repeats the frames.

  •  March (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MattBellamy

    can't get here soon enough. I figure we'll have a true Democratic frontrunner by then. With divine guidance we will have the presumptive nominee.

    -7.38, -5.23 "Though the storm may be raging, and the billows tossing high, Lord I feel like going on."

    by CocoaLove on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 02:33:14 AM PDT

    •  March? (0+ / 0-)

      we won't have to wait until March, we'll know who the candidate is on Feb 6.

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 06:59:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  insurance policy (0+ / 0-)

        The political landscape is so screwy I ain't taking no chances. It would be fine by me from a mental health standpoint for the primaries to rap up early.

        But in the long run, this early run-up to presidential elections and the ensuing thuggery and carnage from the candidate wars is soooooooooooo not a good look.

        -7.38, -5.23 "Though the storm may be raging, and the billows tossing high, Lord I feel like going on."

        by CocoaLove on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:22:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have links! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Piotr, MattBellamy, LaEscapee

    This link takes you to the discussed article's links.  

    This link takes you to where krugman blogs about Obama's history.

    It would be nice if we had reporters that could ask each candidate to clarify their plans on insurance and Social Security.

    Daily Kos needs it's very own reporter.

    None of the candidates are going to start out with their guns loaded and drawn when it comes to making changes.  None will walk in the room filled with insurance company owners and say "You SOBs, this is the way it is going to be.  They are political animals. They will start out mannerly and nice, but like Edwards said, they aren't going to give up that money willingly no matter how nicely it is done.  That is when the steel of the person will matter.  We need someone that won't fold and give into them.

    Both Obama and Hillary gave into the insurance industry when they had a shot at them.  

    •  Thanks for the links (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chicago jeff

      I did provide links to the ones I'm talking about in my diary.  They show up in an orange color.  But thanks for providing these.

      That blog article is interesting.  Krugman doesn't take nearly as harsh a tone as he does in his columns.  I noticed that Reich has calmed down his tone as well.

      I think it would be nice if instead of putting out these policy proposals that'll never see the light of day again, the candidates spent some talking about how exactly they planned to bring about their proposed reforms.

  •  Did you read the Krugman TPM interview? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Piotr, Salo, jct, Bartimaeus Blue

    Here's a link:Krugman Ramps Up His Critique of Obama
    Krugman doesn't endorse Clinton or Edwards.  But he zeros in on Obama pretty well: getting everyone around the table talking without coming to the table without a particular political philosophy is already ceding too much to your opponent.  
    Obama favors an insubstantial fuzziness.  He seems afraid to embrace true liberal or progressive values.  Does he really believe in sharing the risk?  Hard to tell.  
    And that is why he is a dangerous candidate.  He is either naive to believe that this compromising strategy will work or he simply doesn't strongly believe in progressive ideas.  But his supporters are failing to see this yet because he is surrounded by glamour right now and is a celebrity candidate.

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:06:49 AM PDT

    •  I don't think he can officially endorse (6+ / 0-)

      The NY Times doesn't allow columnists to endorse candidates.  However, as I point out in my column, Krugman has written numerous columns praising Edwards while none for the others.  There was a diary here on his last column calling it an unofficial endorsement.

      As far as Obama, I think Krugman is just misinformed.  He didn't appear to even know about Obama's efforts in the Illinois Senate until someone alerted him to it in his recent blog post.  Krugman calls Obama naive for thinking his strategy will work nationally, but doesn't provide any evidence to prove it won't work.  He doesn't provide any evidence of a more confrontational approach working either.  I think that's a fair debate to have, but Krugman goes too far in saying stuff like that Obama is the "anti-change candidate".  That's where you know he's crossed the line from being an opinion columnist to a candidate advocate.

    •  Two basic models of negotiation. (6+ / 0-)

      Positional and principled (using Fischer and Ury's terms).  Positional begins with a position and relies on overpowering the adversary or, as a plan b, compromise.  Edwards seems to take this approach and consequently, if he fails to overpower the special interests, he will have to compromise on something or get nothing at all.  And since all he's got is his position, his concessions would have to be substantive--i.e. watering down his plan.

      Principled negotiation begins with interests and is focused on getting a solution to your problem.  You get the solution through process (negotiating based on what happen to be progressive values/behaviors) and flexibility (esp. openness to solutions that benefit both sides without compromising one's own interests).  

      So Obama invites everyone to the table.  Since he owns the table, he can use that to elicit concessions without giving it up on policy or just accepting failure.  He can make continued access to the table conditional, for example.  He can make the other side look reasonable and fair -- or stupid and greedy, for example.  

      •  Then what are his positions? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Piotr, Salo

        This is where Krugman has put his finger on Obama's weakness.  Obama appears to go the table with positions that are to the right of Clinton.  Is he going right because he thinks this is a good starting point?  Does he really believe that SS is in crisis?  Can universal health insurance really be voluntary?

        Obama may have a position, but it might not be ours.  Or he may not have a position and is too easily persuaded.  

        I'm inclined to think it is the latter.  

        -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

        by goldberry on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 04:12:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On healthcare, obviously ... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Aexia

          Access to affordable, quality coverage for all.

          On SSI ...

          Maintain benefits without making already regressive way of funding it worse.

        •  You are quite correct (0+ / 0-)

          I can tell you have been in a few negotations in your life.

          "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

          by Salo on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 07:06:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Positions, interests (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          chicago jeff, psericks

          The principled negotiator often doesn't take a position, or a hard position. That's the point.

          If you look at Obama's record, however, you can infer that he always has a progressive bottom line, "BATNA," or Best Alternative To A Negotiated Agreement, because his accomplishments are always progressive on the whole. His life choices (community organizer, civil rights law, etc.) also are an indicator of his progressive bent. In addition, his voting record arguably is better, more progressive, than Clinton's, and Clinton's voting record is better than Edwards'.  

          By focusing on "interests" peoples' needs, hopes, fears, concerns, and desires, he creates opportunities that never happen in traditional positional negotiation, which invites posturing, misinformation, and gamesmanship.

          "Positions" are what we say we want, but when people are thinking in terms of position-based negotiation, of course, there's great incentive to take extreme initial positions -- and lie or deceive. Expectations and patterns of untrustworthy behavior produces sub-optimal results most of the time.

          "The most significant difference between now and a decade ago is the ... rapid erosion of spare capacities at critical segments of energy chains." Cheney, 2001

          by Akonitum on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 07:55:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Invites to the table? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Piotr

        They will not come.  Believe me. Obama offers nothing to them. He just has a list of demands.  Edwards and Clinton are the only two who offer any honey to these flys. That's the whole point about Kucinich wailing about Mandates.

        Kucinich thinks he can do a quick eminent domain on insurance assets at 10% of value. That is a non starter.

        Edwards and Clinton are offering the insurance companies the prospect of a temporary windfall, in exchange for the introduction a public competitor.

        Obama, he's likely to get children fully subsidized--he'll be lucky to get even that.  That's about it. He's going to negotiate away regulations and the public programme because he offers no Quid pro Quo to the Republicans and the Insurance lobby in exchange for the public programme.

        The entire point of this exercise is to start a public programme that working men and women can join.  That's the thin end of the wedge.   I don't see how Obama's plan get's us there.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 07:05:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You miss the point, I think. (0+ / 0-)

          If they don't come to the table, then they provide tangible evidence of how unreasonable and selfish they are.  Edwards is shooting himself in the foot because he begins by putting the insurance companies in a position of advantage (they can dismiss his argument by saying "see, he's the unreasonable one").  It's the old conservative talking point: neither side is trustworthy or constructive so do nothing at all.

          If they do come to the table, well ... then you've got them playing a game where we set the ground rules.  Obama would get them to play our game or concede the appearance of moral authority or integrity.  Edwards would play their game and hope he comes out on top.

      •  You should diary this (6+ / 0-)

        as an attorney and policy advocate who's been involved in tons of negotiations over the years, there is so much bs on here about negotiation strategy.

        People seem to think that negotiation is simply a process of either one side wins, the other loses, or, barring that, splitting the difference between two extremes. According to that theory, you start with an exaggerated version of your own position and a pugnacious posture. Then you either win it all, or if you do compromise, the middle ground is at least closer to your position.

        The real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes the other side gets turned off by your posturing and just gets up and leaves and beats you in another forum. Sometimes you win the negotiation but lose the larger fight for whatever reason. Most good negotiators understand that it's really about how do we get the win/win.

    •  Obama is disingenuous (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Piotr, LaEscapee

      IMHO.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 06:58:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why Krugman fails to comprehend Obama (7+ / 0-)

    (I'm partially recycling this comment from one I wrote in another diary on the topic.)

    It's disappointing that Krugman's attacks on Obama are based on Krugman's own failure to understand Obama's way of doing things.  He's attacking the popular straw-man of Obama as a guy who's willing to compromise his principles to work with Republicans, and that's just not correct at all.  An academic of Krugman's stature should be above such intellectual laziness, but I think this diary is right: primary-season competitiveness has tainted his judgment.  

    Krugman argues that Obama can't fight effectively for progressive causes with his conciliatory tone.  He incorrectly portrays Obama's style of compromise as something akin to Hillary's split-the-difference triangulation, but in reality it's far different.  Obama does not work with Republicans by caving in to their ideas; he works with them by getting them to support his ideas.

    I point to exhibit A:  David Brooks.

    Of course, there are better examples.  In the state legislature, Obama took a house divided on death penalty reform and championed a progressive solution which he led to unanimous victory.  And in the U.S. Senate, there's the Obama-Lugar Nonproliferation Legislation and the Obama-Coburn Bill to create that database of federal spending, plus sponsorship on dozens of other bipartisan, progressive bills.

    Obama's "bipartisanship" really amounts to a keen strategic understanding of the other side.  He learns what their hang-ups are about progressive policies, which surprisingly are usually not the core progressive principles.  They're the "wedge issues" within the issues.  Obama finds them and neutralizes them.  He strategically dismantles the opposition and turns them into supporters, at least on an issue-by-issue basis.  He beats them and they like him for it.

    This is why so many conservatives are coming out and saying, "well, Obama's more liberal than Hillary, but I still hope he wins."  Conservatives and, more importantly, independents are defecting in droves to support Obama without him budging on his progressive positions.  He's creating a class of Obama Republicans that can help progressives coast to the sort of electoral victory the misguided Reagan Democrats created.  Only, this time, our side will be the beneficiary of these anti-partisan voters.

    A conservative friend of mine wrote the following to me:

    Obama impressed me. He is obviously a thinking person. And while I may not agree with some of the positions he takes, it's refreshing to know that he has put so much thought into understanding the complexities of the issues.
    ...
    It's remarkable to me how many times I'd be reading his discussion of a topic and have him echo a thought process almost exactly the same as my own... only to have him in the end come down on the opposite side of the issue. Even when I disagreed with his ultimate conclusions, I found after reading his discussion that I had a greater respect for his position.

    Obama knows that the fight against conservatives, just like the war against al Qaeda, cannot be won with force and angry rhetoric alone.  We must win hearts and minds to beat both these adversaries, and Obama has a once-in-a-generation ability to do just that.  Krugman utterly fails to grasp this.

    ---
    "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
    "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

    by Troutnut on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 04:47:18 AM PDT

  •  Nice, thought-provoking (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Better Days, MattBellamy, Yoshimi

    I really love Krugman as a general matter, and I admit that my favorite candidate is actually Edwards.  But you wrote a really interesting diary, thanks for it.

  •  Krugman is anti-Obama, and Reich is pro-Obama. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Better Days, MattBellamy, Yoshimi

    Pretty easy to tell from their respective writings.  So, one can filter accordingly, i.e. anything Reich writes about Obama should be assumed to have the purpose of helping him electorally while Krugman is trying to help defeat him.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 05:34:04 AM PDT

  •  Loved the diary and comments (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MattBellamy, Yoshimi

    My final feeling is that any of the top three would bring something special to the table.  While my knee-jerk love is for JohnEdwards and his progressive positions, I really do respect Hillary's knowledge and forging of alliances, and Obama's.  We're not going ANYWHERE with a militant approach, no matter how much outrageous stuff needs payback. And the problem lies within most of our Demorcratic congresspeople, for whom the electoral system still works fine, thank you. Politicians are a self-interested lot. So even though it's clear to anyone with a brain in her head that our system is controlled by corporate interests, what that person will also have to admit is that a president with 20 or so principled people in each house is not going to be able to effect change.

    I love Edwards--and I hope he is awarded the task of helping to design a single-payer system for us. I also hope that Hillary and Obama don't hurt their own relationship too much in the months ahead--as president and VP they'd be flatly unbeatable. I don't see things trending that way however.

    Sometimes i've hated Hillary for her hawkish compromises, just as I've been disgusted with Obama's masterful avoidance of tricky votes in the Senate.  But I understand that politics is a master game of chess. I have finally made my peace with her--she is extremely smart, seasoned, and does have compassion for human beings. Any of the three--I'm fine with it now.

  •  People have patterns (0+ / 0-)

    When you know what they have done before, then you can be pretty sure they will do the same thing the same way in the future.

    For instance, Hillary's vote to declare the Iran Guard as 'terrorists', was similar to her vote that gave Bush the right to go to war with Iraq.

    Bill has betrayed Hillary sexually all his life.  He will do something again because he will think no one will know and be swept away by the moment of passion.

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