Daily Kos

FBI Building Vast Database of Biometric Info (W/Poll)

Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:26:46 AM PDT

Busy, they're always busy...

WaPo--The FBI is embarking on a $1 billion effort to build the world's largest computer database of peoples' physical characteristics, a project that would give the government unprecedented abilities to identify individuals in the United States and abroad.

The FBI's program will be utilized not only by law enforcement agencies around the globe, but may also give your employer the heads-up should you have a run-in with Johnny Law: (bold added)

Digital images of faces, fingerprints and palm patterns are already flowing into FBI systems in a climate-controlled, secure basement here. Next month, the FBI intends to award a 10-year contract that would significantly expand the amount and kinds of biometric information it receives. And in the coming years, law enforcement authorities around the world will be able to rely on iris patterns, face-shape data, scars and perhaps even the unique ways people walk and talk, to solve crimes and identify criminals and terrorists.The FBI will also retain, upon request by employers, the fingerprints of employees who have undergone criminal background checks so the employers can be notified if employees have brushes with the law.

But is the data accurate? Not so much, say some experts:

In 2004, the Electronic Privacy Information Center objected to the FBI's exemption of the National Crime Information Center database from the Privacy Act requirement that records be accurate. The group noted that the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2001 found that information in the system was "not fully reliable" and that files "may be incomplete or inaccurate." FBI officials justified that exemption by claiming that in law enforcement data collection, "it is impossible to determine in advance what information is accurate, relevant, timely and complete."

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

Poll

Global Biometric Surveillance: A boon for world security?

21%57 votes
9%24 votes
1%4 votes
2%7 votes
2%7 votes
1%5 votes
3%8 votes
15%41 votes
4%13 votes
11%30 votes
2%7 votes
4%11 votes
0%2 votes
1%5 votes
15%41 votes

| 262 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: FBI, biometric database, Department of Homeland Security, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 153 comments

  •  They oughta rename the agency.... (12+ / 0-)

    FBI = Federal Big-Brother Initiative

    I appreciate the idea of security for the US and its citizens, but do ya blame me if I don't trust my government?

    Just sayin...

    Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

    by DontTaseMeBro on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:30:46 AM PDT

  •  What sucks about this the most to me... (5+ / 0-)

    is that I wouldn't be so hellbent against this kind of thing if I thought I could actually trust the government to use the information benignly for legitimate law enforsement/security.

    The fact that I so oppose this kind of thing is Bush's own fault.

    Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

    by Jimdotz on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:32:14 AM PDT

    •  You can never do that-thats the whole purpose (14+ / 0-)

      of limited government and the bill of rights.  Never trust the government to be benign.  Thats different from saying drown it in a bathtub its saying don't let it get to be all-powerful and have courage to face the world without being scared of every little thing.  Hell, we all die eventually and if we give in to our fears we never live.

      "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson

      by NearlyNormal on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:38:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What I mean is that the FBI has kept fingerprint (4+ / 0-)

        files for decades, mostly to the betterment of the country. It would be nice I could have the same level of trust about all this stuff.

        Barack Obama -- The President we were promised as kids!

        by Jimdotz on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:55:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What goes in (10+ / 0-)

          The traditional fingerprint files were derived from arrests.

          Since 2002, they've greatly stepped up their photography of protests, seeking to buff up the backend collection of images.

          Early trials of face recognition used an algorythm which would rotate your features from the front and side photos taken at booking, and proved not very useful. The more shots of you they have, the better chance the system has of picking you out of a crowd. When the National onference of Mayors came to Madison, there were 3 guys shooting me for hours at the protest stage for which I'd secured permits. When they were in turn photofgraphed by an Indymedia reporter, things got ugly. (photo) I confront "Ron."

          Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
          Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

          by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:09:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not correct..... (0+ / 0-)

            Most of the fingerprints in the database (which I have toured) are from 10finger prints from the military end employment as well as arrests.  The CSI software is pretty mythical where they search the database.  The pull up some close matches and then a west virginia pulls up the files and examines them visually for a match.

            A major reason to do this is to check that when people are arrested you know who they really are.  People who are hardcore criminals lie and change names all the time.  This database is an identity database rather than a forensic database.  There are elaborate software packages being written to try and connect the forensics with the identify database, but the partial prints from forensics are sort of poor and the large numbers of prints in the identity database are sometimes not all that good.

            Remember that little kidnapped girl in Utah who was taken by the crazy mormon prophet guy as a second wife?  He was someone they arrested in California and he used a false name.  A few days later they realized he wasn't who they thought he was after he was released.  You are worried about a future technology that is actually quite hard to achieve.  The FBI have wasted billions on bad contracts to get their computer systems up to date and interconnected- one of the root causes of 9/11.  You should be glad they are trying to get some of this technology to actually work.  The have better things to do than spy on you all the time- they just aren't that good at it and they don't have that many agents.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:47:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Better things to do than spy on me"... (4+ / 0-)

              The record suggests otherwise. Per FOIA's in the early 1980s I had 880 pages with the FBI, 350 with the Secret Service, 56 with the US Postal Inspectors.

              In the Press Conference announcing the Levi Guidelines in early 1976, then FBI Director Clarence Kelly acknowledged a burglary of my house in Kansas City, rented as protest HQ for the upcoming Republican Ntional Convention. He used the incident as an exampple of why the guidelines were needed. Seems the KC field office had failed to secure authorisation from Washington.  

              Did you check the photo linked above?

              Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
              Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

              by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:38:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you they spy on..... (0+ / 0-)

                you are a serious protester.  Most of us are not being spyied on, unless we get out there and protest too.  But to spoof the ssytem, bigger protests would be best.  Then we would overwhelm their resources.

                You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:51:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  And they still fuck up... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville

              ....look at the sad case of Brandon Mayfield - the Spanish authorities saved him from being waterboarded at Gitmo by repeatedly saying that his fingerprints were not a match to prints taken off a bag related to the Madrid train bombings.

              9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

              by varro on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:26:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  anybody who understands fingerprints..... (0+ / 0-)

                knows how easy they are to mix up as well.  Several experts did tell FBI it wasn't a match and he is sueing.

                You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:50:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Louise Slaugter came here a few days ago (8+ / 0-)

    trying to get support for including language banning genetic discrimination in the omnibus spending bill.  McConnel was was trying to keep it out despite broad bipartition support.  

    People yelled at her and cussed her out for not ending the war and derided people who insisted this is an important issue.

    They have no clue how much worse things are going to get before they get better.

    ---
    Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

    by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:38:51 AM PDT

    •  banning genetic disrimination is much more ..... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      VelvetElvis

      pressing, in my opinion.  It is happening right now.  

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:48:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wait a second... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      o the umanity

      Genetic discrimination? Like, they're taking blood samples, doing DNA analysis and rejecting people for employment based on their genes? WTF?

      During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

      by kyril on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:51:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  health insurence (6+ / 0-)

        people are losing coverage because there's a 5% chance they will get sick later.

        Since insurance is employment based and employers want to keep the cost of that down, yeah, that's where things are going right now.

        The bottom line is that insurance companies are starting to engage in eugenics.

        ---
        Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

        by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:14:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Genome project (0+ / 0-)

        has a complete human DNA sequence(s), now they are working on racial differences amongst others things.
        why DNA projects would want detailed DNA differences on the worlds races is a mystery.

        WASHINGTON - The first effort to map variations in the human DNA code reveals patterns in three ancestral populations — European, African and Chinese — that go back thousands of years, scientists reported Thursday. They said the trend could lead to medical treatments tailored for your specific genetic background, but they also worried that it could spawn a 21st-century style of racial discrimination.

        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

        Who wants to be cured! by government force in the future no doubt, just like the early 20thC forced sterilizations (of feeble people and degenerates) in the USA and Europe.

        THE HUMAN GENOME PROJECT

        The largest U.S. government funded research in the history of the biomedical sciences - the $3 billion Human Genome Project (HGP), designed to map our the entire human genetic code – promises significant medical dividends in the treatment of individuals suffering from genetically related diseases. To justify its monumental expense, however, several HGP proponents, such as Daniel Koshland, editor of the prestigious journal Science, have claimed that discoveries resulting from HGP research will help cure society of crime, poverty, and other social ills. Koshland, a biochemist by training, wrote, "It is time the world recognizes that the brain is an organ like any other... and that it can go wrong not only as a result of abuse, but also because of hereditary defects utterly unrelated to environmental influences" (editorial, Science, October 12, 1990).

        http://www.sntp.net/...

        Its a fundie christian / facist / neo nazis wet dream to decode and identify racial groups hiding in plain view in society.

        Morality is the single most important issue.

        by Ferrofluid on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:53:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd be very surprised if there wasn't (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          GN1927

          research going on to tailor bio-weapons to specific groups of people.

          •  there isn't in the USA..... (0+ / 0-)

            what kind of evil people do you think scientists are?

            Plus, people aren't all that different.  Tailoring would doubtless backfire.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:41:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like you KNOW. (0+ / 0-)

              "Science" is traditionally ahead of "public knowledge" by decades.  It's getting "worse" recently, as the public increasingly can't understand, hell... standard English, much less esoteric scientific matters...

              And I don't think scientists are "evil", for Pete's sake.

        •  Oh, come on (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          murrayewv, Rob Cole

          The Human Genome project is fascinating. They're not looking for racial differences - they're looking for common threads in each of three large population groups, which is something of great interest not only in medicine but in anthropology and archaeology.

          This could help us learn more about human history. It could help cure genetic diseases. Eliminating crime and poverty? I don't think so, but scientists will say just about anything is possible if they think it will get them grant funding. Remember how antimatter and cold fusion were going to fix all our energy problems? They weren't, but I don't blame the researchers for giving that impression - it's their life's work, the love of their lives, their baby and they want to continue it. And the only way to do that, with today's limited grant funding and astronomical research expenses, is to claim that it will eventually solve all the world's problems. The editor of Science, of all people, is not part of some huge government/corporate conspiracy!

          If/when a scientific discovery gets used for evil, we should fight that use, and we should do so more effectively than we've done in the past. But fighting scientific inquiry itself? That's what fundie fascist nutcases do.

          During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

          by kyril on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:23:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  another paranoid fearful thread..... (0+ / 0-)

          where evil scientist rule and are trying to kill you.  As a scientist and human geneticist, I must tell you scientists are very liberal as a group.  They get their money from the government but they compete for it in public calls for funding.  There are hereditary defects as well as environmental problems.  Try looking up Fragile X, the cause of approximately 25% of autism.  Understanding human disease is a good idea, not a bad idea.  Finding treatments is a good idea, not a bad idea.  Having genetic privacy is a GREAT idea not a good idea.  With such privacy, I would feel a lot more comfortable about genetic testing.  With public health insurance for all, I would also feel a lot better about genetic testing and treatments.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:45:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  So how is it that the FBI won't give (6+ / 0-)

    up the identity of their agents who harass dissenters?  How about it AG Mukasey?

    BushCo Policy... If you aren't outraged, you haven't been paying attention. -3.25 -2.26

    by Habanero on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:51:33 AM PDT

  •  NCIC and me, a cautionary tale (5+ / 0-)

    I got my NCIC record in 2000, as part of discovery in a criminal case, and found it had me incorrectly convicted of Felony Assault on a Police Officer in 1979, when, in fact, I'd plead to a misdemeanor.

    I demanded, under the Privacy Act, that this be corrected, sending in the actual Court records. FBI returned that they'd do so only if I got them an affidavit signed by the State Attorney General. He failed to respond for 7 months,  until my Attorney sent a letter threatening to drag him into Federal Court on the eve of his eletion for Governor.

    Ascroft created the NCIC's accuracy exemption shortly thereafter, so mine is probably the last inaccurate NCIC record to be corrected.

    Of my then 128 arrests, only 82 had made it into the NCIC database. Quite a few of those were missing dispositions, but the Privacy Act only cives the right to corrections of inaccurate information, not a right to complete incomplete entries.

    The NCIC is mostly arrest and conviction info, it's the database the FBI makes availble to State and Local cops, and most of the records are sent in by the locals, who often fail to update when the cases go to court. In 2005, Canadin Immigration was given terminals with NCIC acess, so these records are the basis for the recent spate of exclusions from Canada.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:58:30 AM PDT

    •  Ben, have you looked into the new Fusion Centers? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril

      From what I have read. they look more like data storage places for our lifes hisory.

      President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

      by SmileySam on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:22:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I thought one lost one's right (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      peaceloveandkucinich, kyril

      to life or liberty whenever one had as much as an uncharitable thought about the police or any of its officers.

      •  Judging by the apoligists on some forums (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        corvo

        whenever theres a discussion on the latest police brutality, Yes.
        You can tell who the police stooges are by the "if you dont follow orders, you will be hurt" routine they parrot.
        Theres a large fascist movement going on in the LE community at the moment, covers up a lot of their misdeeds and prob crimes nicely IMO.

        'Dissent will be punished'

        Morality is the single most important issue.

        by Ferrofluid on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:00:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ooof! (0+ / 0-)

      most of the records are sent in by the locals, who often fail to update when the cases go to court

      So anyone who has had any sort of run-in with local authorities (from traffic tickets to first-time non-violent offenders to those arrested, tried and convicted) could be a part of this database, am I reading this right, Ben?

      I hope not, but if I am, per this post below, I'm guessing that perhaps we don't have to be as worried about being eugenically-screened any time soon as we do about, say, wanting to go on vacation abroad (or desiring a one-way ticket outta here). Jesus...

      On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

      by o the umanity on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:30:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Since NCIC's indexed first by fingerprints (0+ / 0-)

        that appears, at least as of 7 years ago, to have been the threshold at which the locals took the trouble to make an entry. Wouldn't suprise me though, if the browsers on today's local police laptops had a "forward to NCIC" button. I'll ask the next cop I get the chance.

        Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
        Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

        by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:39:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Biometric... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    murrayewv, Ferrofluid

    identification in an of itself...really isn't identifying.  This misconception just enables the 10 year contract holder to extract the billion dollars from we taxpayers.  Who's getting this money, and who did they have to <fill in the blank but it rhymes with schmo> get the contract?

  •  I've taken to wearing disguises. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    corvo, oibme, leonard145b, Rob Cole, kyril

    I'm in my bike helmet and facemask (it's winter), daily.

    Try and find me, FBI!

  •  Intl. Conf on Computers, Freedom, & Privacy (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kck, kyril

    http://cfp.org

    19th Annual, in New Haven sometime in May, exact date not yet set. Brings together advocates, acedemics, .gov types. The top event in the field. I expect to be on a panel or 2.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:15:44 AM PDT

  •  From Breathalizer to DNA Swab in 20 yrs (5+ / 0-)

    One swipe of the swab and they will have your entire life at their fingertips. When you first had sex, or caught the crabs to what the pizza place delivered last night. That slippery slope is being greased up.

    President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

    by SmileySam on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:17:01 AM PDT

    •  seriously.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      peaceloveandkucinich

      there is a 7 month backlog on most DNA for rapes.  While they are can do this in 6-8 hours, it is not being done expect in high priority cases.  There is also a big backlog on the offender database.  I work in the forensic DNA area and I assure you, we are not in GATTACCA land for quite some time, although they are working on advanced technology to make it hapen.  There is a lot of privacy concern on DNA and it is fairly well regulated for privacy.  Also it is quite expensive to do for forensics cases (paternity is easier and cheaper.  It took months to solve a recent murder and the killer suspect was roaming around free while the DNA analysis dragged out.  It is quite a while until your fears are realized and there is plenty of time to get some privacy laws enacted by campaigning for some good representation.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:56:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We were at a party with friends who own (0+ / 0-)

      a breathalizer and it certainly doesn't take much to set one off; frankly amazing.

      In youth we learn, in age we understand.

      by Jbeaudill on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:25:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The *only* time... (11+ / 0-)

    ... you should have to be fingerprinted (outside of being arrested for an actual crime) is if it's part of a valid background check, like if you're applying for a high-level security clearance, or a job working with children (my mom was fingerprinted as a teacher, to make sure she didn't have a criminal record... they've caught convicted pedophiles applying for jobs to work with kids).

    I didn't have a problem with being fingerprinted when I applied for my concealed pistol carry licenses.

    Outside of that, it's bullshit.  Especially for a government database.  Any retention of innocent citizens' identifying characteristics is a slippery slope at best.  It's all part of the shredding of the Bill of Rights.


    Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed. -- Bruce Springsteen

    by Plutonium Page on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:18:51 AM PDT

    •  the real scary part (4+ / 0-)

      is that it's legal for them to get these profiles from "discarded" genetic material, mean spit on a coke can and stray hairs.  

      The only way to stay  out of it is to use your own silverware and and cups where everywhere you go, only use the bathroom in your own home, and shave off all body hair.

      ---
      Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

      by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:30:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  reading material (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kyril

        (warning, pdf)

        http://www.lff.org/...

        ---
        Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

        by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:36:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yep... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Plutonium Page, corvo, ashwken, kyril

        The only way to stay  out of it is to use your own silverware and and cups where everywhere you go, only use the bathroom in your own home, and shave off all body hair.

        All to reminsicent of the dystopian scenario described in the film Gattaca...

        •  bingo (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          GN1927, kyril

          Here's another scary thought:

          If there is nothing that can stop the NSA from tapping phone lines, there is nothing that will stop them from tapping sewer lines either.

          ---
          Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

          by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:56:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tapping sewer lines? Already on the way... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kyril

            Researchers have figured out how to give an entire community a drug test using just a teaspoon of wastewater from a city's sewer plant.

            The test wouldn't be used to finger any single person as a drug user. But it would help federal law enforcement and other agencies track the spread of dangerous drugs, like methamphetamines, across the country...

            Two federal agencies have taken samples from U.S. waterways to see if drug testing a whole city is doable, but they haven't gotten as far as the Oregon researchers.

        •  please start carrying your own cutlery.... (0+ / 0-)

          and dishes.  Very green.  Carry home your own shit too- campers have the equipment.  Body hair too- nothing like being safe!

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:38:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Most Americans are required to have immunizations (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kyril

        prior to starting in public schools. Blood samples are already available from birth but by the time a child is in school they become regularly available.

        DNA patterns are already easily stored digitally and attached to demographics.  

        I once needed to research an epidemic from around the Civil War and another one in the 1940's at a rest home in Minn. and I was easily able to get blood samples from all of the patients.

        Pretty much, whenever your blood is drawn, for non-routine tests (not CBCs but all VD tests like when you marry), a sample is retained put on ice.  

        HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

        by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:54:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no they aren't..... (0+ / 0-)

          seriously, this is one of the most paranoid inaccurate threads I have ever participated.  The blood samples need to be properly stored.  The military have these stored but the infant genetic tests are not stored anywhere.

          They are done on automated equipment that punches them out.

          There are plans to store this information but no one should store their DNA unless there is genetic antidiscrimination laws.

          No one pays to do store this information and no one just does this test for free.  

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:06:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't mention tests (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kyril

            What I'm talking about are actual blood, not test results. The blood used to inject into various dx machines is retained in a vial and frozen.

            HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

            by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:11:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and covered by HIPAA..... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kck

              would need a warrant.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:58:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  and you need a warrant to get it..... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kck

              and they are not doing these tests for fun and giggles- they are very expensive.  They won't give you healthcare- why do you think they will do this to you?  There is limited national ability to do this testing.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:36:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again, my issues are transparency &infrastructure (0+ / 0-)

                The technicalities of DNA tests and the storage of the resulting data is trivial. My concern is information management: ownership, liabilities, access. These are personal assets, mine, not shared, assets I'm legally accountable for.  

                Here's a less clinical example. When signing the papers for a mortgage, a new form requires signing with your most commonly used name + legal name and it's sent to Homeland Security as required by a pretty new federal directive for lenders.

                Now I don't really care that the government suddenly has a history of my home purchase, where, when, how much, etc. But why? And should they? And what's their liability? Who can/will they provide this data to?

                If the federal gov't requires sending  1'st graders' pictures in, thereby creating "a file" I want to know. I am not allowed to photograph my foster child  because of bona fide privacy and consent reasons - they can't give consent and neither can I. Yet the federal government can?

                To hell with HIPPA, we need a superseding PIPPA, all personal information, clinical or not, biometric and all, with stringent privacy and access rules.

                HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

                by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:02:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Do states still require Wasserman tests? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          murrayewv

          Nevada didn't when I got married there...

          And whatever happens runs into HIPAA, which medical personnel enforce very strictly.  I've had problems getting medical records for legitimate purposes because my client didn't put a birthdate on the release...

          9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

          by varro on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:32:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Local LE finger-prints kids already (0+ / 0-)

          Its done as a safeguard if a kid goes missing, nice start for a big database of future perps.
          Plus schools and colleges maintain big databases of future draft candidates if they receive federal funding, they go to hand over all info on the kids to the Feds.
          Supposedly starting from age 16, but I woundnt trust any money grabbing org to be decent.

          Morality is the single most important issue.

          by Ferrofluid on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:07:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes and they collect kids DNA..... (0+ / 0-)

            in case they get kidnapped.  Paranoid people who will pay money for something they don't need to pay money for.  But people aren't being kidnapped all the time here, Nancy Grace not withstanding.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:34:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  please don't worry..... (0+ / 0-)

        unless you are a criminal.  Then, they will get your evidence.  I know a LOT of DNA people and I definitely trust them.  I know that you are all concerned, but the everyday folks doing this work are very honest and ethical.  Not so sure about local law enforcement, very sure about all of the lab people I have trained currently working in the field.  There are a lot of checks and audits put in place after some very bad incidents that I am sure you are remembering from the past- including some here in WV.

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:03:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Surely, the actual technicians, programmers, (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ben masel, jxg, GN1927, Rob Cole, VelvetElvis

          designers, are all OK people. The idea here is not to identify villains but to establish an appropriate, rigorous, robust security infrastructure and ownership legislation. The people are not our concern  but the legal, and what's worse, business applications.

          HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

          by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:15:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  what about (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rob Cole, o the umanity

          prospective employers?
          prospective inlaws?
          Insurance companies?

          Right now anyone who is willing to pay for it can get full genetic testing done on you without your permission.

          ---
          Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

          by VelvetElvis on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:23:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  say what- (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            varro

            how exactly would they go about doing that.  Do you seriously believe they will take kleenex and do this for you?  They can do this testing and it costs- a lot.  I bet they require permission as well- and employers aren't spending >$2000 to do this.  Our overpriced healthcare system to the rescue.

            And the offenders database is not open for casual people to check like employers.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:01:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Corruption (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          o the umanity

          Just takes one employee with the access passwords.

          10 years ago, the Chicago Police Lt in charge of the elite anti-burglary squad went into business with a couple of the high end cat burglars he'd previously busted, gave them the database of expensive jewels the Dept had collected so thgat they could be sent to pawnshops in case they were listed. Now, the crooks knew who kept really expensive stuff in their apartment.

          Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
          Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

          by ben masel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:29:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  DNA sequencing and manufacture (0+ / 0-)

          How hard would it be to fake up some physical DNA evidence (for a crime scene) if you knew the intended (innocent) criminals actual DNA sequence already.

          Morality is the single most important issue.

          by Ferrofluid on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:10:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you would need their actual blood.... (0+ / 0-)

            for your fake crime scene, since they do presumptive and confirmatory tests for presence  human hemoglobin in blood before they extract the DNA for evidence.  If you planted the DNA with someone's short tandem repeats and you used human blood, you would need to get rid of the other person's DNA from the blood- not trivial.  Might be able to do it by irradiating it- but you would have to test it to be sure it actually was gone.   Likewise semen is tested with alkaline phosphatase and then they extract the DNA and saliva is tested for alpha amylase and then they extract the DNA.  

            One of my favorite fictional stories of co