Daily Kos

Another Xmas as a Closeted Atheist

Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:06:24 AM PDT

Christmas is over. Pejoratively, I write, thank God. For many reasons this is a bleak time of year for me.

One reason is that, like many Kossacks, I am an atheist. Some people might call me a lapsed or a recovering Catholic. My parents, though, don't believe such designations exist. I have been baptized, taken communion and been confirmed. To them, I am Catholic for life based on the completion of these rites of passage.

It doesn't matter that I haven't gone to Mass on a regular basis in 13 years. It doesn't matter that I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, or the existence of Heaven, or the immortality of the soul. I am Catholic forever.

And at some point, they figure, the blasphemy will stop: an awakening, an epiphany will occur and the sinning will cease. I'll be back on my knees, begging the heavenly father for forgiveness and reciting the Lord's Prayer with remorseful tears in my eyes.

It's never going to happen.

My wife live and I live 2,000 miles away from our families. I haven't gone back home for Christmas since I moved away and my parents have visited us only twice in seven years.

Religion rarely comes up whenever we speak. I have argued with my parents over the church's sex abuse scandals and its cult of secrecy. They have defended the church and its priests and I listened, aghast, as they rationalized away the rape of children.

Politically, they've grown more conservative over the years, wholly buying into the Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck backlash and voting 100% Republican since 1980. You probably can imagine the other things they've come to justify, most of which are contrary to Christian belief: cutting social programs for the poor, denying health care to millions of children, endorsing corporate hegemony, supporting the Iraq war, etc.

Regardless of this long history of disagreement, I still have their ear. We still talk. So I had another chance today to come out an as atheist. I didn't even have to do it in person.

It could've have been this simple:

"Mom, Dad, I don't believe in God."

"What?"

"I don't believe in God."

"What? How can you say that?"

From there I likely would have clarified that I don't believe in God as Catholics/Christians define him. Or I might have said that if God indeed exists, how can human beings possibly comprehend divine intentions when they/we know so little about the earth and its creatures?

This might have made matters worse. I imagine my parents clinging to these words as equivocation, taking them as unsure steps on a path back to agnosticism and, ultimately, renewed faith in what they believe.

The pro-Catholic cheerleading, which has been held somewhat in abeyance for the past couple of years, might resume. I'd be repeatedly told to give the church another chance. During our phone calls they would start to tell embellished fables about what a pious child I was.

Dreading this passive-aggressive tact - enduring years of it, likely - I said nothing. So my wife and I shared the same Christmas conversation with my parents about an irrelevant exchange of gifts, the weather, what we're each having for dinner, et cetera. It could've been recorded in 2006, or 2005.

My wife supports my beliefs and would defend me if I told my parents how I feel, how I've felt my entire adult life. So why can't I do it? Do I feel a need to protect their faith from my overwhelming doubt? My lack of belief wouldn't cause them to waver for a second in their steadfast Catholicism.

Am I keeping my atheism secret just to keep the peace? Am I a coward? I've been in this place before. I lied to them about going to Mass the final three years I lived at home. Now I've been harboring this bigger secret for even longer.

I need to tell them before next Christmas. Maybe telling them on Christmas - given its significance - is a sucker punch, anyway. I don't know.

Thank you indulging me with this diary. It was just something I needed to write. Happy holidays to all and best wishes for a great 2008, both personally and politically.

Tags: Christmas, atheism, personal (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 57 comments

  •  Chinese food and movies (7+ / 0-)

    Hey, it works for other groups of nonbelievers....

    More seriously, do you need to tell your folks? Obviously, their Catholicism is important to them, and they'll feel hurt if you tell them you're an atheist. Apart from feeling slightly dishonest, is there any reason to tell them? You live a long way away, and the issue between you and them sounds as much political as religious...something that telling them your beliefs (lack of beliefs) won't remedy.....

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:12:55 AM PDT

    •  Honesty vs. secrecy (14+ / 0-)

      This is why I want to tell them. It's an issue in our family, and another reason I became liberal while my parents got deeper in conservative thinking. I would prefer to be open with how I feel/what I think rather than repress it and have it eat me alive.

      It's hardly a perfect analogy, but one of my aunts is closeted (as a lesbian), even though her homosexuality has been obvious for at least 20 years. I can't imagine how it must be for her, having to put on a charade for a bunch of, well, bigots.

      Also, it makes me feel like a hypocrite railing against secrecy while engaging in it to shield myself from criticism.

      Granted, keeping this secret is not nearly the same as the Catholic church covering up crimes against children.

      •  Nicety on the Head of a Pin (3+ / 0-)

        You are not leading a closeted life any more than your aunt is really closeted.  Your "secrets" are open, just not formalized by proclamation.

        From your diary, we see that you are not keeping the rituals of Catholic faith, that you and your parents have long-standing disagreements on your a-religiousness, and that they acknowledge your lapsed state in their urgings to be otherwise.

        You are not a hypocrite.  They are not ignorant.  There is no closet.

        You are suffering from wanting to be the son they indicate they want; you are trying to please parents who will not fulfill the first precept of parenting: love your child because he's yours.

        You are a good son to them because you want to protect them from what you know is painful for them.  Realize that about yourself and continue living your modest (as in self-effacing) but honest life, knowing that they know you are an atheist.

        Their problem is not lack of knowledge, it's the refusal to accept it and their son.  I'm afraid there is no value in telling deniers to "deal."  So, spare yourself a second wall to beat your head on.  And let the wall of faux secrecy crumble on its own.

        They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

        by Limelite on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:28:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My husband (11+ / 0-)

    was raised hardcore Baptist in Alabama. He won't tell his parents he is an atheist, I think he doesn't want to hurt his other's feelings. His family is seriously into denial as a mode of communication. And admitting you are any kind of non Christian in the south isn't that easy never mind the whole atheist thing.

    •  It wouldn't bother me to not have told folks, (0+ / 0-)

      but what about the badges of religion?  By not coming clean, doesn't he have to pretend to be xian, pray w/ 'em, etal?  That part would bug me, cuz those activities a) suck on their own terms; and b) are borderline disrespectful to pretend to believe while doing.  IMHO, of course.

      •  He needs to come out of the closet. (3+ / 0-)

        It is actually pretty demeaning to his parents not to.  The greatest insult is indifference, and hiding it presumes they are too _______ to handle it.  

        I refuse to pray, and since the insertion of god,  say the Pledge of Allegiance.  I have to admit, 30 years of Reaganism has also soured me on the pledge.

        ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

        by dkmich on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 08:19:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see your point... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          undercovercalico

          ..but they absolutely will not be able to handle it. My parents found out about me "ditching" Mass in 1997 after I'd been doing it for 3 years. At the time I was 22, engaged and just about to move out of the house. They pestered me almost every day about returning to church, and continued to do so for years afterward.

          My wife and I have a policy that whenever we see my family, she tries to make sure I'm never alone with either parent b/c I'll get cornered and nagged about returning to Catholicism.

          They partially blame her for not being Catholic, I'm sure. The "go back to Church" exhortations melded with the "don't marry that woman"  campaign that went on for the length of the engagement.

          From their POV, they're actually trying to save from eternal damnation. As ridiculous as that sounds to me, it's the "reality on the ground" b/c they believe it.

          I've told my parents I'm no longer Catholic. I've told them I loathe the Catholic church's hypocrisy and that if I'm ever beaten down enough to crawl back, it means that my life is a total failure.

          But these are people so invested in their faith they will rationalize child rape. Catholicism defines them to the core. They can't even begin to see themselves as something else.

          •  You know your parents best, (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            AmericanFactotum

            and what you can and cannot tolerate.  They are not defending child rape.  They are protecting their belief system.  You are challenging everything that defines them.  You have to expect them not to like it.  The question is, can you handle it and how?

            If not, the hell with it all.  Don't say anything.  Do whatever works for you and don't feel guilty.  I came out of the closet on this, and I don't regret it.  I do, however, have some people look at me like I'm the one with no credibility.  I laugh at them.  I don't care what they think or what they say as long as they have no control over me.   Good luck.  If your independance is tied up in this, it may be worth a blow out.  You are entitled to your own life, as they are theirs'.  

            Hard decision, but don't worry.  Obviously you are doing what you choose to do because nobody is forcing you either way.  When you choose to do different, it will happen despite you.  You are exercising your free will even if you don't realize it.  Good luck.  

            ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

            by dkmich on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 09:24:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  take my comments w/ a grain of salt (16+ / 0-)

    If you have a powerful need to have your parents know who you are, then you'd better tell them (but, yeah, not on Christmas day if you can avoid it). There is nothing more miserable than being drastically and persistently miscast by family members to whom you would like to feel close (and it's bloody hard to feel close if you're not known).

    On the other hand, if you don't really need them to know you, don't tell. If they would never get it and it doesn't matter anyway (your wife understands you, your friends, etc), then, sure, let them go on thinking whatever they want about your views on religion. Let them stay blissfully unaware.

    Good diary. Sorry to hear about your parents going all conservative wingnut on you; my mom did that for a while in the 80s. It was a bad scene.

    God bless our tinfoil hearts.

    by aitchdee on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:32:03 AM PDT

  •  Wow... (9+ / 0-)

    I'm sort of in the same boat, though I wouldn't say I'm an atheist, more agnostic.  But I got to say these diaries are becoming a bit cliche, the whole 'I'm a liberal atheist and my parents are conservative Christians, waah!!'.  My parents voted for Bush two times in a row and just a few months ago my dad asked me, 'say, how did you know all this stuff that has happened would happen?'  ARRGGHH!!!  But at the same time, my dad and brother are rabid sports fans and whenever I go over to their house, or even  they to mine, it doesn't take long before the football game comes on, but I'm not writing diaries 'Another Xmas as a Closeted Non-Sports Fan' or wondering when I'm going to tell them that I'm not into watching football.  I just don't watch, and when they leave the History Channel comes on.  Jeez, we are all adults now.  I have a friend whose gone 35 years thinking his parents don't know he smokes.  Now maybe I and or my parents are freaks and/or hippies, but its like this - this is who I am and  that is who you are, we're family, and either we can spend time together or not, and we decide to spend time together, so we all got to deal with it..  

    There comes a time when  people have to just grow up.

    Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

    by scionkirk on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:39:12 AM PDT

  •  My girlfriend... (0+ / 0-)

    ...was raised in a devout Roman Catholic home, and she feels like you do. She cannot stand it when I talk about my Lord and savior, and has on more than one occasion begged me with tears to stop talking about him!

    I'm just your average run of the mill follower of Jesus Christ, not the one that you hear about only at Christmas, or when a televangelist is begging for money on tv. I consider myself to be a true disciple of Christ. The Lord has been falsely accused since he was born into this world, since he walked this world, since he was crucified by this world, and since he returned to the right hand of his father, and whom shall return very soon with great glory with all of his heavenly host.

    It grieves my soul and cuts me to the heart that this present world religious system has corrupted the truth of the one true and living God so masterfully, that people would rather die in their sins, and dismiss Jesus Christ out of hand without so much as a fair hearing, much like when Pontius Pilate crucified him the first time around.

    Like I tell my girlfriend, "I will continually pray for the Lord's mercy upon your life, that you will one day come to know the man that Pontius Pilate told the angry jewish mob, I FIND NO FAULT IN THE MAN"!

    If even the wicked, evil Roman Governor Pontius Pilate, after having Jesus scourged with the cat of nine tails, ripping his skin and muscles down to the bones, could find no fault in him, that's good enough for this lost sinner. I will continue to cast my lot with him, and his redemption through his shed blood. Peace to you.

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:43:30 AM PDT

    •  dear disciple of Christ (15+ / 0-)

      I know you mean well. Actually, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you mean super-dooper dooper well.

      Regrettably, however, with respect to the present needs of the diarist (not to mention those of your poor gf), you have the most well-meaning tin ear on the planet.

      When people asked Jesus for help, did he preach at them, or did he just, you know, bust a move and help?

      God bless our tinfoil hearts.

      by aitchdee on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:55:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can only speak for my own life's experience... (0+ / 0-)

        ...no one else's aithchdee. I don't presume to know everything there is to know. I'm only a sinful man who found his favor and mercy. I don't know how to answer your question. I only know he's never let me down, never deserted me in my darkest moments, and has never left my side for one second. I don't make it my business to speak for him anymore than I or anyone here can speak for Markos. I can only speak as a living witness to his loving kindness, his unconditional love for all people, and for my hope and faith that he's all that he told me he is, that he is thruthfully the one and only Son of the living God. Peace.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 01:23:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You Know (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          aitchdee, GW Chimpzilla, Anne Hawley

          We all have testimony.

          But testimony isn't the equivalent of compassion.

          The question is, which is more Christ-like: To practice what one preaches or just to preach what one practices?

          They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

          by Limelite on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 05:55:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Answer: Love thy neighbor as thyself... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Limelite

            ...Don't place any burdens or expectations on them that you wouldn't expect from yourself. IOW, don't be like the hypocrites who lay weights upon others that they themselves can't or won't or have absolutely no intentions of doing themselves. If you say, "Do not murder", do you yourself commit murder? Adultery? False witness? Steal? Covet? Blaspheme? Treason? Live your secret life as though the Lord himself was watching you(which he is watching everyone). Character is doing the same things publicly that one does in secret. Not being two-faced. I guess that just about covers it for me. I don't judge or condemn anyone, and if you asked anyone I know they would testify to that fact. I try my very best to accept and love everyone, and do like you said, practicing what I believe. Peace to you limelite!

            "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

            by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 07:46:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You assume some sort of monolith... (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              aitchdee, Limelite, ImpeachKingBushII

              Don't place any burdens or expectations on them that you wouldn't expect from yourself.

              I expect myself to be on time.  Others couldn't be on time if their life depended on it.  I have three choices:

              *I can continue to be on time and resent their tardiness,  
              *I can continue to be on time and be sanctimonious and forgive them the error of their way, or
              *I can take the same liberty as they do and put the resentment to bed.  

              I'll take the last one thank you very much.  Freedom from coulda, woulda, shoulda is very liberating.

              ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

              by dkmich on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 08:28:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Rec'd for Practicing What You Preach (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              aitchdee, ImpeachKingBushII

              in this Republican age.

              They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

              by Limelite on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 08:52:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Is this snark? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          aitchdee

          Or, are did you just compare Markos to Jesus Christ?

          We can have the Constitution or we can have Bush but, we can't have both.

          by Friend of the court on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 07:53:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  amen.. help the person in real ways (5+ / 0-)

        and stfu.

        By example might win a few, if you actually have something worth following.

        fact does not require fiction for balance

        by mollyd on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:27:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Your dilemma reminds me a little of mine. (5+ / 0-)

    Different scales and details, but perhaps the parallels are valid.

    My best and oldest friend and I grew up together spiritually through a long series of explorations in what could be loosely termed "New Age" kinds of beliefs.

    Over time, I've lost those beliefs. Like to think I've "left them behind" but that's a slippery slope implying superiority. We live on opposite coasts, this friend and I, but we talk regularly. I've recently learned that some weird "seizure-like" episodes I've been having are in fact panic disorder.

    My friend was interested in the psychic and spiritual implications of the problem, and urged me to explore them in terms of "my life's purpose" and "what my soul intended" and so on. I finally just came out to her and said that as far as I'm concerned, the unconscious mind is the body, there is no "soul" except the energy field that ties our cells together, and the only "purpose" in life is whatever is driven by biology.

    Oh, it was a hard conversation! I've strayed from the faith, and what's worse, I'm deluded by these cold, intellectual ideas. "Personally," she said, "I've let go of my need for intellectual proofs. I know what I've experienced."

    The implication was that I would eventually rejoin her on the heights of transcendent spiritual awareness, once I let go of this weak preference for the mental and intellectual. Nothing I could say would convey to her that I feel I've found an even more transcendent truth than the one it's supplanted.

    In short, very similar to the conversation you predict you'll have with your family.

    In my experience, the reaction you're expecting is probably exactly the reaction you'll get. On the other hand, I kind of think people who love you deserve to know where you stand.

    Just my two bits' worth on this late Christmas night. Good luck.

    Politicook is Food for the Progressive Soul

    by Anne Hawley on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:45:58 AM PDT

    •  I'm New Agey (3+ / 0-)

      or Old Age-y, if you take my interest in Renaissance magic & divination into account. ;-)

      Anyway, wow, that sounds startlingly like me on the phone. How did your friend take it?

      For myself, I always want to know how my friends feel about my woo-woo side. I hold back very little (well, with some friends I hold back more than with others--I don't regale the scientist ex-boyfriend with too many tales from the astral). They tell me I've gone mushy-headed in my dotage. But without Harper's (aitchdee's) runes and rituals, I Ching and tarot cards, whence would come the material for half our jokes? Does your friend have a sense of humor? That seems to be how we handle it, with humor.

      God bless our tinfoil hearts.

      by aitchdee on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 01:17:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No humor at all on this subject (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        aitchdee

        as far as I can tell. There's a deep, earnest sincerity that seems to arise from the kinds of transcendent experiences she has had.

        What was very hard for me to convey to her was that I'm not denying the experiences--some of which I've had myself; I'm saying that I'm no longer honestly able to ascribe the experiences to supernatural forces or give them supernatural meanings.

        A panic attack is a form of ecstatic experience, albeit kind of a horrific one. When I say that it's the result of a neurotransmitter imbalance, she's afraid I'm saying that it's nothing more than that--that somehow "science kills spirituality." I'm saying that there's enough wonder and transcendence in the natural world, and that "why" I'm having the attacks no longer intersts me much.

        It comes down to an irreconcilable difference in semantics, I think. But we'll be friends forever.

        Politicook is Food for the Progressive Soul

        by Anne Hawley on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:05:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Would your parents want you to lie (0+ / 0-)

    and would they want you to be happy? Most parents want their children to be happy yet yours  will not give unconditional love because they can't force you to believe what they want you to believe. It is control and coercion of the worst kind.

     Parents of the Castrati who gave their children to the Vatican to be castrated so they would retain their soprano voices believed they were giving a gift to God. At least parents don't do that any more.

    Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

    by ohcanada on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:55:08 AM PDT

  •  Do not hide from the truth... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GW Chimpzilla

    Do not hide from yourself. Do not hide from your parents. Being an atheist does not mean that you have no faith. Mayhaps the faith that your parents might push upon you is different, but you still have faith.

    Do you believe that your decisions in life are your own? Do you believe that you are responsible for those decisions? Are you able to accept responsibility for your decisions?

    To me, this is the truth of being an atheist, and accepting what I do. I need no moral code dictated to me to know my right from wrong. It is plain to see for any moral human being. Do not let others dictate their moral doctrine upon you and make you feel guilty for not subscribing to it.

    Believing in yourself and taking resposibility for your own actions does not require you to conform to someone elses belief "system". You do not need to subscribe to the hypocrisy of religion to make others feel better about "you". Helping your fellow man does not make you a Christian or any other denomination. It makes you a decent human being.

    Nothing more...

  •  It's so hard to tell what others reactions will (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    aitchdee, AmericanFactotum

    be. I am sure you know your parents as well as anyone. I have seen many parents absolutely amaze their children with their understanding. I have relatives that I can openly talk about my beliefs (or lack thereof) with, and others with whom I don't discuss it. There is nothing wrong with not discussing matters that only cause pain.

    Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

    by Sacramento Dem on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 01:06:35 AM PDT

    •  Maybe... (5+ / 0-)

      ...I should've written this in the diary, but my parents aren't particularly happy or fulfilled people. Things have not gone well for my father in his career over the last 8-10 years. My mother's best friend is her own mother, who is now getting closer to death (at 93 years old). My parents are happy just to talk to my wife and I on holidays and whenever we spare the time for them.

      Sometimes I think I haven't told them not b/c of cowardice or abdicating some responsibility to the truth, but rather out of sympathy/mercy/pity. I'm sure they'd hate to know I feel that way, too.

      •  Well I wish you the best of luck (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        aitchdee

        My relationship with my parents has certainly changed over time. I am able to tell them things now that I couldn't before. Even so they are not my closest confidants.

        Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

        by Sacramento Dem on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 01:30:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)

        Have mercy on them as much as possible, but don't get suffocated.

        My parents haven't been that bad, but it's been a rapid deterioration to anger and theistic dependence/fanaticism in parallel with decline of their physical health.  The sad thing is how they've increasingly confabulated evidence for what they want to believe, mostly.  

        We're probably living with some of the greatest mental generation gaps in human history.  But our job is to forgive it, and to bury them, and to let the fight end there.

        Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

        by killjoy on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:03:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think what one thinks about Religion (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Limelite, acnetj

    Is no one's business! I mean I am granted the right to privacy by the Constitution and I stand on that. What faith or non faith I am is no one's business but mine and the others I may or may not experience it with.

    Frankly living in the biblle belt I am so put off by the NEED of these cultists to go around spouting their religious views.

    I know i am a good person, and I look to other people to see if they, too, are good people, that's what matters. If one has a religion, fine, but please keep it to yourself--and i'll keep mine private as well.

    Good for your aunt in not feeling the NEED to talk about her sexuality to anyone else, that is a totally PRIVATE affair, and that is whether someone is a heterosexual, Homosexual or even doesn't have sex--no one's business but my own and that's another area I think people would do better if they didn't go around telling everyone. I've had people tell me they're gay and it didn't matter one bit to me as long as they are good, solid people.

    Quite honestly I think that people who are so concentrated on religion have a pschological problem or are lacking something since every other word that comes out of their mouths has to be about religion--now remember I live in the bible belt, so it's insane down here sometimes.

    And I've seen the most hatefilled things said using the name of God--like political demonstrations where religious people carry signs that say "God hates fags"--Now to me this isn't a 'good person' at all, but one who needs use the name of religion to spout hate.

    So, that's just a few comments from me.

    I do hope you can come to some kind of peace within yourself in this highly charged political--religious atmosphere.

    OH, BTW did you know that the Civil Rights law guarantees the right of people not to be discriminated against based upon religion?

    When I grew up in the segregated south people did discriminate based upon religion, there were signs in windows that said 'no dogs or Jews allowed", we had to put our 'religion' on job applications--no kidding, my first act of rebellion in the sixites was to leave that religion question blank--none of their damn business.

    "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

    by Wary on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 01:10:46 AM PDT

  •  Aw hell. I went to Midnight Mass last night (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    myrealname, acnetj

    so I could sing some christmas carols. So what if I don't believe anymore. It's a cultural thing.
    If MY middle name were Hussein I'd probably go to a mosque every once in a while, for the same reason.
    ducks

    •  A lot of it is indeed cultural (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BoringDem

      and shared experience in the family. For example in the Chinese culture, Christian Chinese don't altogether abandon Chinese cultural traditions and values that were set before Christianity came to China. As such, Chinese communities among different religions (western and eastern) get along much more peacefully than those say in the Middle East.

  •  you might get some help here (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Limelite, myrealname

    http://de-conversion.com/

    I too am a "recovering catholic", though my journey took me thought the UU church as an agnostic.

    I still go to the UU church, but only when the hiking/running/bicycling weather is bad. :-)

    It wasn't that hard in my case; my parents fully expected me to fall away from "the faith" when I went to college.

    But, I've found that saying "I believe in nothing supernatural" is sometimes a softer way of saying things.  I guess that people don't feel as if you have gone out of your way to reject their deity.

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:25:04 AM PDT

  •  Tough Love (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Limelite, myrealname

    When my first marriage blew up no one from my family talked to me about it. I was going insane. I found a therapist and on day one she said to me, "If your family is not with you now, they never will be." I was shocked, kind of pissed, and starting about 45 minutes later, eternally grateful for receiving a most liberating perspective that has now helped me regularly over the past 15 years.

    Here's the thing: our family, even our parents who we most likely love a lot, are just other people. There's nothing intrinsically special about them. So if your parents, as mine are, are part of The Problem Out There, in denial/racist/blind to not having it all figured out/control freaks to the point where they not only believe in superstitious Medieval nonsense but make you believe it too, then unfortunately you need to be the parent. I don't criticize my 9 year old daughter for believing that Maroon 5 creates better music than Frank Zappa - it's beyond her.  You can love your parents while seeing them for what they are - products of their age, upbringing and fears. They have no effect on you unless you choose to give them that power.

    If, on the other hand, they are pressuring you to be someone other than who you are, then it is sadly not that simple. But to the degree all of this is in your head because you're a good person and because we all want to please our parents, then you really have to get over that. I'm sorry if it's harsh but but it's true. They are probably lying to themselves over so many other issues that if you don't bring up your atheism they won't either, and that factor alone won't really effect your relationship.

    Remember, you're the adult here - they believe in Caspar the Holy Ghost for Christ's sake. Let them have their fantasy as long as they don't deny you your right to live in the real world.

  •  skip straight to Boxing Day (0+ / 0-)

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:44:43 AM PDT

  •  I'll wade in (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Limelite, mango, myrealname

    You are describing my parents.  They too have beome more conservative over the years.  They are not happy that all five of their children have not really continued their catholic faith.  I am not sure if my sibilings are all nonbelievers like me, but none of us attend church or are religious in any way.  Must be a catholic thing.

    However, we still get together all the time and we abide by the rules of life - never discuss politics or religion (even when having too much to drink).

    Personally, I think just as people who are religious should not make a big show of it, people who are not should not make a big show of it either.  

    My kids and I have a hohoho christmas every year, and it doesn't bother us that their are religious overtones to the season.  We have our own little traditions and have a great time.  Who cares what the rest of the world is doing?  People worry too much about what others think and do.  

    http://icasualties.org/oif/ ** 4144 **

    by BDA in VA on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:03:16 AM PDT

  •  My parents (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Limelite

    found religion after I left home. I think they feel guilty about the circumstances causing that. Anyway, they wanted to see me before I deployed for what amounted to a sort of crusade to ensure my soul was saved in the event of my demise. I let it all out, about my atheism, but they remain steadfast. Oh well...

    We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ~Richard Dawkins

    by Therapy on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 05:09:46 AM PDT

  •  everyone has to decide sometimes (0+ / 0-)

    what kind of familial peace they want, a slightly dishonest peace that comes from keeping some things private, or if in the a paraphrase of the odious Dr. Phil McGraw, the peace that comes from being right because people chose to share their personal truths about religious/political/economical  beliefs. (Dr. Phil says what would rather be right or happy?, and unfortuately, in my personal experience being right in my family never leads to be happy, although, I know many people and times being right did make for being happy)It's a decision that is made based on personal family history, past experience and how much acceptance that a person has from their family. No one can tell you which choice ot make.

    For my part, I share nothing with my family, chosing to keep things very private. In my family, I have this total don't ask, don't tell policy based on a flirting with my "heretical" ideas on religion and politics. This decision is based on my family's way of invalidating my feelings and decisions, secondguessing and saying "you should of..." after swearing to support me in my endeavors. For example, when I decided to move back home for financial and family reasons, my mother was all for it. Now, after being miserable in a job that I took a 2/3 pay cut with, being in a culture(North Minnesota redneck central) where I am grossly misunderstood, my mom says to me that moving back home was the worst mistake I ever made. It's infuriating.

    Personally for me, I have a don't ask, don't tell policy with a LOT of things/ideas. I don't discuss my spirituality, leave the room when religous discussions come up, ignore the slight digs my mother gives me, such as when the communion minister brings my mom communion every Saturday night, and the minster says-"well, I will pray for you." My mom says-"did you hear that? she will pray for you!" I just say smile and say thank you. Although, I do have my slipup moments. For example, the first Saturday I met Rose the communion minister, she told my very sick and dying mom that my mother that could offer up her sufferings as an offering for me getting a job. I said before I could I stop myself, "oh, yes, just what God and I need another martyr." Poor 83 year old Rose, she probably didn't deserve that! Of course, my mother pulled her favorite line out, "why are you being so ugly?" which I now totally ignore, and if she says it again, I say, "I am sorry if my truth offends you." (gotta learn that apologies never start with if, I guess!)

    In any case, I feel for you, as a slightly  agnostic woman centered spiritualist, it's not easy to be in a family situation like that. I enjoy the american cultural traditions at this time, carols(they are pretty aren't they), kids and santa, bad spritz cookies,(seriously, is there such a thing as good spritz cookies), giving presents.(this year being broke, I gave my sister an organized tupperware cupboard, and all three nieces the daring book for girls, with coupons for an afternoon of doing one activity from the book) I try to go to midnight mass, because I love the candles, and the singing, and the incense. When I mentioned I might go, my mother almost leapt out of bed and did a jig as she took it as a sign I was returning to the Church, but I Ignored that.

    So, I guess this disjointed rambling comment can be  summed up as "hey, I use the don't ask don't tell policy and it works really well for me, but it might not for you based on your beliefs and experiences, and man, it does sure suck to be us doesn't it?" variety.

    I hope you did have a happy American cultural holiday, and got good spritz cookies, and best regards for the New Year.

  •  Out Yourself.... (0+ / 0-)

    instead of "I dont believe in God," try the more intellectually honest approach, and you will feel better.

    "There is no God," works much better to flush out the supernaturalists among your friends and family. It also pegs you as a person not willing to be polite when God is used to murder, maim, impoverish and sustain injustice.

    A coworker who tried to end a discussion last week with the Apocalyptic Required Ending, "Well, it doesnt make any difference. We will all die soon anyway;" had to face this;

    There is no God. Its up to us. Now.

    Despair is being peddled by these supernaturalists. Time to wake them up from their suicidal sleep, and their attempt to take us down with them.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 05:58:48 AM PDT

  •  Always hard (0+ / 0-)

    to tell how these things will play out. Even at 60, there are those in the family who, when tey here me say I am an Athiest, stop dead in their tracks. My Mother on the other hand, figured out when I was a small boy that I was one of the unbelievers. We had discusions occaisionally for a few years regarding some aspect or another of religion. But, she still loved me and I her and we had a great relationship.

    Hope it all works out for you whatever the course.

    Common Sense is not Common

    by RustyBrown on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:15:49 AM PDT

  •  I find the more fundamental religious people (0+ / 0-)

    become, the more atheists there are.
    I too haven't been to church in many years. If I go, it's to appease my mom, who loved the Christmas eve services. I did too for the candles, the carols, etc.
    But I don't believe in God as defined by any of the fundies, Catholic, Protestant, etc.
    But I still enjoy the season. After all, remember that most of its symbols are pagan, not Christian.
    I enjoy the tree, and wonder why can't others? I see no reason why any denomination can't enjoy a piece of nature brought indoors to celebrate its beauty and the passing of the season.
    I hop you look farther out for spirituality. There's more to it than some guy in a white robe and sandals, ready to smite those who don't obey his word. The fundamentalist God is not a loving god. And since most religion has, at its core, love for fellow humans, I reject most religion too.
    No, there is more to it than that, I think. I mean, just look at the fibonacci sequence! Look at the galaxies, the stars. I have a hard time not believing in something that binds humanity, the earth and all living things. The very idea of reincarnation is not only fascinating but, for me, an answer to this connection - what you do determines what comes next (and by this accounting, boy-oh-boy Bush and Cheney are soooo screwed next time around!). The human you help this time, might be the one that helps you next time.
    anyway, the part I will agree with you on is the friggin commercialization. Why do we need carols in the stores on the Muzak system in September? WTF?
    And how many trees will you see on the curb this morning? This pisses me off the most. Far too many put their tree up on Thanksgiving and tear it down Christmas night. People, the 12 Days of Christmas starts now and ends at epiphany! The tree should go up the week of Christmas and come down about a week after New Years. That's the season. If you're going to profess to be religious at all, shouldn't you follow the dates? And even if one isn't a devout Christian, is there anything wrong in having the holiday season begin at Thanksgiving, enjoying that, then gearing up for Christmas in December?
    There's so much about the holidays to hate  - commercialism, greed, excess, etc. Over the years I've cut back. For me, you don't have to spend a dime at Christmas and you could still have a great time.
    Sadly, it's gone too far the other way.
    So I don't blame you for not liking the season. But I would urge you to find the good where you can find it. And don't be angry at your folks. Just feel sorry for them. When you forgive them for being so naive, you might actually get to know them better.
    Anyway, sorry this is so long.
    Best wished to you and yours for a great New Year!
    ;)

    "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    by MA Liberal on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:24:17 AM PDT

  •  Let it go (0+ / 0-)

    There are two reasons why people go down a path different from their parents:

    1. It's what you really really believe in.
    1. You want to piss them off.

    Think about it for a minute, and if it's #1 just let it go.  Why should you care?

  •  we could be twins (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AmericanFactotum

    I left the Catholic church over it's attitude towards women, in 1995. I'd been more and more uncomfortable about it but I didn't have the nerve to leave and antagonize my parents. I go to Mass only once or twice a year - Christmas and Easter - and only in response to prodding from my brother who tells me to do it "to show respect for the family".
    Although this year he amended it to "do it for Mom's sake."
    I thought was a cop-out on his part because he shows almost no respect for the Unitarian/Universalist church I joined instead. Because there isn't a UU church in my city, I get my sermons by mail via the Church of the Larger Fellowship. So my brothers derisively call it a "church by mail". Neither has the stones to come to a UU church service (I don't have a car and would need someone to drive me there). It's maddening, I tell you, maddening! But I'm not going to return to the Catholic church. Ever.

    I'm at the junction of short, nerdy, and oddly attractive.

    by Pan Zareta on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 12:33:44 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for sharing (0+ / 0-)

      I think you're right. Looks like we bailed out at about the same time.

      I was tempted to go into the laundry list of reasons for leaving the church. The hypocritical stances against women and gays were two big ones.

      I remember discussing it w/ my parents in the context of the scarcity of young priests. Of course they were against ordaining women. And I always wondered how they reconciled themselves w/ the fact that many priests are gay. In their warped minds, they probably think the gay priests are the ones that molest children.

Permalink | 57 comments