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The main goal of a recent NYT piece, which had a lot of unattributed quotes, seems to have been to show that Hillary’s experience during the Clinton presidency was less than impressive and certainly not what she and Bill have recently claimed.   And though the piece disproves at least part of its own thesis by listing impressive achievements of Senator Clinton during her White House years, it also seems intentionally written to omit  certain facts and obscure or deny certain other demonstrable truths from that time period.  

What even the New York Times Gives Hillary credit for:

First, let’s start with what the piece admits: As First Lady Hillary Clinton had an outstanding record of defending the rights of women, including a landmark trip to China. (link)

Her role mostly involved what diplomats call "soft power" — converting cold war foes into friends, supporting nonprofit work and good-will endeavors, and pressing her agenda on women’s rights, human trafficking and the expanded use of microcredits, tiny loans to help individuals in poor countries start small businesses.
...The foreign policy achievement most often credited to Mrs. Clinton came in 1995, with her speech to the United Nations conference on women in Beijing, where she declared that "human rights are women’s rights, and women’s rights are human rights." She also tangled with Chinese officials, she said, and refused to bow to pressure to soften her remarks.
"She had a good balance of being firm on these issues, even if they clearly covered Chinese sins, but also understanding the need for good relations with China," said Winston Lord, then the assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, who briefed and accompanied her on the trip.

These are not the only achievements that could have been lauded.  They could have talked more about her work in Northern Ireland, or children's issues, and several other topics.  

Something the NYT omitted: Hillary is "scary smart" and does her homework

But to get the full context or Hillary’s potential as an advisor, one has to understand just how smart Hillary is, even in a room full of other smart people.  Larry Johnson, who is widely respected on intelligence issues recently put it this way (link)

She is an attractive 60-year-old woman. But that was not what stood out for me. She is scary smart.
I was not alone at the briefing–there were two other participants who are well-known experts on the Middle East and Iraq. We had not submitted our briefings in advance. We made our respective presentations and had a genuine, in-depth discussion about viable options. She asked us tough questions and could think on her feet without having to look at notes. She focused on what could be done to achieve U.S. interests in Iraq without bleeding our country’s treasury and military.
As we talked about the limits and efficacy of using military assets to go after terrorist targets, the Senator brought up the book, Not a Good Day to Die by Sean Naylor. She did more than bring it up. She described in detail the challenges that special operations military forces actually face on the ground. I was stunned. This is not an easy book to read. It is an excellent work and provides enormous detail on special operations and CIA military activities in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda. But it is tough sledding for folks not familiar with military terminology. She had it nailed, and it was not a mere pre-planned politician’s trick. She knew what she was talking about.

Obviously, this is an example of more than just being smart.  Even a smart person would have to do the hard work of reading and learning arcane details in order to perform so impressively.  But this description of Senator Clinton is nothing new.  Thie goes back to the days before she met Bill and includes her impressiveness as a student at Wellesley.  And she also outshined even Bill at Yale Law School.  Try as they might, those who attack Senator Clinton cannot explain this away.  For example Steven Stark, also a Yale Law School alum, wrote this (link):

The press's assumption about Hillary has always been that she's the power behind the throne: the smart, savvy one at Yale Law School, who got better grades but postponed her own political career for the benefit of her husband. David Brock wrote an earlier biography, The Education of Hillary Rodham, that advanced this thesis, making the claim that Hillary, not Bill, was the leading light of the twosome.
There's only one problem with this theory: there isn't evidence to support it. Love him or hate him, Bill is a political phenomenon.

Then in the same piece, Stark has to admit that, contrary to what he as just written, Hillary was impressive at Wellesley.  So he then tries to minimize the impressiveness:

It's true that, according to the Hillary myth, Hillary's classmates were wowed by her at Wellesley and that she gave what they considered to be a stirring graduation address when she left. But giving a great graduation address is not a qualification for the presidency. And, even if it were, it would have to be a lot better speech than Hillary's, which, to be kind, has not stood the test of time as well as, say, the Gettysburg Address.

Then comes Stark’s efforts to admit the truth and then minimize it with respect to her performance at Yale Law School:

It's also true that Hillary was an outstanding student at Yale Law School. But so was everyone else -- that's what Yale Law School attracts. (Okay, I'm bragging; I went there, too.) As with almost everyone else who went to Yale Law, she's smart and quick on her feet, which is why she does well in debates.

Did you catch that?  Stark admits that Hillary stood out at Yale Law School.  And he also has to admit that everyone at Yale Law School is smart.  But in order to minimize her performance there he has to resort to verbal sleight of hand and to imply that standing out, even among all the other smart students is not really impressive.  Although the students at Yale Law School are an impressive lot, certainly not all of them are outstanding students, as Stark admits Hillary to have been, among all the other impressive students.
All of this does not necessarily make Hillary qualified to be president, especially when she is compared to other outstanding Law School students like Barack Obama.  But it does explain why Bill Clinton might have gone to her for advice both while Arkansas governor and as US President.  Again, Stark has to admit that she advised Bill when he was President and then try to minimize that:

Since then, Hillary has been one of Bill's closest advisers. But if that, too, were a presidential qualification, we could elect Dick Morris or James Carville (no thanks).

A Defining moment that the NYT piece obscures and denies.
Of course, the NYT piece specifically attacked the idea that Hillary was one of Bill’s closest advisors, so simply quoting someone who says this is not enough to prove that President Clinton turned to her for advice, even if she is "scary smart."  They gave her some credit but failed to provide enough context or admit certain other important facts.
Here is one snippet that attempts to characterize her actions as "acted as a spokeswoman for American interests rather than as a negotiator" in what seems to be an effort to minimize her executive experience, specifically with respect to Bosnia and Kosovo.   (link):

In visits to Bosnia and Kosovo after the American-led bombing of Serbia, she entered war zones before officials believed it was safe for her husband to go and acted as a spokeswoman for American interests rather than as a negotiator. Mrs. Clinton had become a champion of the bombing campaign, and many officials — including Madeleine K. Albright and Richard Holbrooke in the administration and Tony Blair, then Britain’s prime minister — turned to her at times to stiffen Mr. Clinton’s resolve to take on Serbia.

More on that effort to minimize her executive role in Bill's administration comes elsewhere in the piece  (link):

She was not independently judging intelligence, for the most part, or mediating the data, egos and agendas of a national security team. And, in the end, she did not feel or process the weight of responsibility.

Both these quotes might seem like fair assessments of her role until one sees the broader context.  That context is hinted at by mention of Albright and Holbrooke but is far more easily understood when General Wes Clark’s role is added in.  One place to get more info is this piece by Fred Kaplan defending General Clark against a 2003 attack by Peter Boyer. (You can also read a pdf here in an old piece of mine explaining some of those same details.)  

In the Kaplan piece, it becomes clear that Clark had joined with Albright and Holbrooke against the joint chiefs, who opposed intervention in Kosovo.  In the piece, Hillary is not mentioned but she had a crucial role in all this, one which required "independently judging intelligence, for the most part, or mediating the data, egos and agendas of a national security team."  Once one gets the fuller context, this quote from the NYT piece is completely different in meaning (link):

Mrs. Clinton had become a champion of the bombing campaign, and many officials — including Madeleine K. Albright and Richard Holbrooke in the administration and Tony Blair, then Britain’s prime minister — turned to her at times to stiffen Mr. Clinton’s resolve to take on Serbia.
"Bill, you’re the president," was a refrain that several administration officials said she used when Mr. Clinton was torn between his advisers.

Remember, this was coming at the height of the Lewinsky scandal.  At the time Bill didn’t know whether to side with Defense Secretary William Cohen and the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs or with Secretary of State Albright and Holbrooke and Clark.  And, as even the NYT piece clearly admits, Hillary stepped in to push him into siding with the State Department and Albright, Holbrooke and Clark.  Her role in this explains why Albright, Holbrooke and Clark are all avidly supporting her.  And it also explains the curious Holbrooke statement recently quoted here about Hillary being more willing to use force than Bill.

Conclusion
The idea of a "co-presidency" of the Clintons has been widely criticized.  And while Hillary did not sit in on all the cabinet meetings, it is clear that even though she was busy working on various projects for which she deserves credit particularly from liberal Democrats, she was also an intelligent voice that Bill turned to for advice at crucial times, even during the Lewinsky scandal.

No doubt many on the left who support other candidates will complain that this is just another example of Hillary's "warmongering ways."  But these same people will complain that there was no intervention in Rwanda and other potential genocides during the Clinton presidency, failing to accept that, unless Hillary had stepped in, there would probably have been no intervention in Kosovo either.

Originally posted to mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:01 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Huh? (7+ / 0-)

    Although the students at Yale Law School are an impressive lot, certainly not all of them are outstanding students.

    Actually, they are.  They only accept 6.8% of applications, and almost everyone who is admitted attends.  

  •  There's no question she is smart. (11+ / 0-)

    I am going to vote for Obama in the primary (also smart), but there is no doubt in my mind that Clinton is up to the job in terms of intelligence and capability should she win.

    This information cannot leave this room. Ok? It would devastate my reputation as a dude. Relentless!

    by ablington on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:11:45 PM PST

    •  She is certainly smart and able (8+ / 0-)

      I have my concerns about Hilary as our next president, but I would not claim that she isn't smart enough.  In fact, despite my reservations I think she would make a good president.  I just don't think that is enough

      After 8 years of Bush America needs a great president to repair the damage to our nation.  We have several candidates who would be good or even very good presidents, but only one who has the potential to be great.

      I believe that that person is Barack Obama.  If as Bill said, it is a roll of the dice to nominate Barack, then I think that risk is worth it because without the potential for greatness in our near future America is trouble.

      My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
      Philly for Obama

      by Luam on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:17:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, that's what I think. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, Luam, DaleA, Pager, SaneSoutherner

        otoh, it is reassuring to me that my second and third choices don't fill me with dread. I don't envy the GOP voters.

        This information cannot leave this room. Ok? It would devastate my reputation as a dude. Relentless!

        by ablington on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:20:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Simply saying that Obama would make a great... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DaleA

        ...President doesn't make it so.  I have been reading a lot of stuff lately about how Obama is actually the LEAST progressive of the three (Clinton, Edwards, Obama) and that he doesn't support Universal Health Care, he's practically spouting Republican talking points on Social Security, he's always talking "bipartisianship" and "working together"...as if the Republicans are going to be suddenly responsive to him because, well he's HIM...OBAMA.

        I like Obama and will support him if he wins the nomination, but are Democrats going to f**k it up again?  Why Obama?  Dodd has a much better record and better positions on policy?  Are we supporting Obama because he's the first real viable African-American running for President?  Is that enough of a qualification?

        Obama has had so little time on the national stage, that he will have to spend an enormous amont of time trying to define who he is (rather than have an established record/persona to run on) and the Republicans will be doing the same thing.  Who's vision of Obama will win?  Obama has so many uphills to face.

        I would like to see Obama on the ticket as VP, but not as our candidate.  I guess I've seen how Democrats shoot themselves in the foot time and time again  This next election is ours to lose and it looks like the Dems will find away to lose it!

        •  Reading "Stuff" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Luam

          I have been reading a lot of stuff lately about how Obama is actually the LEAST progressive of the three (Clinton, Edwards, Obama)

          Nothing personal, Kipzoo, because even though I'm voting Obama, I can understand your frustration with the Party.

          However, regarding saying you have been reading a lot of stuff lately... if you're not going to give sources, why say it? And frankly, given today's news cycle, you can show me stuff today, including polls, and by tomorrow I'll show you three times more stuff contradicting it.

          www.opedna.com
          "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

          by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:33:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Saying doesn't make it so (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund, Tempus Figits, GirlZero

          but if you've been reading a lot of stuff lately...

        •  Making it great (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mperloe, GirlZero

          It is my impression and summary of the man which makes me think he would be a great president.  His style and speeches are inspirational to myself an to millions of Americans.  He has a strong appeal to Democrats as well as Republicans.  He is willing to look past our current hyper-partisanship to an America were we are no longer our own enemy.  I believe that he has the bravery, honesty and integrity to lead our nation.

          That I believe he is the only candidate with the potential to be great is certainly an opinion, it is also only an opinion that we need a great president now.

          My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
          Philly for Obama

          by Luam on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:42:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  here's Krugman again (0+ / 0-)

          today in salon.com

          http://www.slate.com/...

      •  A GREAT president..... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mikepridmore, ms in la

        was lost in the last presidential election and he has chosen to support Hillary.  His name is General (Ret.) Wesley Clark, and both are plenty intelligent.

  •  How could Hillary (4+ / 0-)

    advise on matters of war and security if she didn't have the necessary clearance to review classified information.

    Maybe that's why she has been less than forthcomming with specifics.

    She might get bill in a lot of trouble if she reveals too much of what they discussed.

  •  Echoing one of Obama's points, (9+ / 0-)

    Hillary has many years of experience...  the result of all that experience is that in Oct. 2002 she trusted the most irresponsible human being to ever sit in the Oval Office with unlimited authority to wage war in Iraq.  On Primary Day I'm going to vote for someone who had the good judgment to not trust GWB with the authority to be dogcatcher, much less to invade and occupy a Middle Eastern country that had not provoked us.

    "Some men see things as they are and say 'Why?' I dream things that never were and say, 'I need to quit drinking!'" - Greasy Grant

    by Greasy Grant on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:12:25 PM PST

    •  But She Was "Scary Smart" So That Information (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Greasy Grant

      Does. Not. Compute.

      Vote Biden (D-Ascerbia) Physicist Wolfgang Pauli upon reading a paper: "This isn't right, this isn't even wrong."

      by ChapiNation386 on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:19:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, the scary smart Senator (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zbctj52

      lived through one gulf war that was started based on manufactured lies

      And then when the same gang of thugs came back for Round Two, we are supposed to believe she was "fooled".

      Reality check time . . .

    •  Exactly. You know who else was "scary smart"? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dinazina, schumann, Quicklund

      JFK's advisers in the Bay of Pigs fiasco and the escalation of US involvement in Vietnam. It's where the (ironic) term "the best and the brightest" comes from:

      The phrase referred to President John F. Kennedy's "whiz kids" -- leaders of industry and academia brought into his administration -- whom Halberstam characterized as arrogantly insisting on "brilliant policies that defied common sense" in Vietnam, often against the advice of career US Department of State employees.

      "It is time to make peace with the planet." - Al Gore (Nobel acceptance speech)

      by hannahlk on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:57:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  By the way, (0+ / 0-)

        that was a quote from someone normally respected here. It came directly from a diary he also posted here.  And it is an important part of explaining why Bill might turn to Hillary for advice.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:12:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

          Is this a reply to my comment? I'm confused...

          "It is time to make peace with the planet." - Al Gore (Nobel acceptance speech)

          by hannahlk on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:32:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. The "scary smart" (0+ / 0-)

            quote comes from regular dKos contributor, and usually respected, Larry Johnson.  If you look at the link to the quote you will find that he thinks she does not deserve the venom heaped upon her.  So my point is that you are so busy hating Hillary you didn't even bother to see if the quote came from someone you might ought to respect.

            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:38:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I really have no idea why (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dinazina

              my repeating the term "scary smart" has offended you (and not the dozen or so other times it's been repeated on this thread) but I'm not in any way disparaging the term or the person who first used it.

              I was simply making the point that intelligence, even at the level of being "scary smart," does not equal good judgement in foreign policy decision making. What is venomous about that? I don't hate Hillary at all. Why on earth would you say such a thing?

              "It is time to make peace with the planet." - Al Gore (Nobel acceptance speech)

              by hannahlk on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:53:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I actually really enjoyed this NY Times piece. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mperloe, Luam, mcfly, KayCeSF, Quicklund

    I think it's very important to point out that Hillary was not an "advisor," as you inaccurately titled your diary, but she was a very politically knowledgeable woman who happened to be married to the President.

    Hillary is not the first sharp-as-a-tack First Lady to boost our image abroad. Anyone remember Jackie Kennedy? She spoke about seven languages proficiently, and was extremely valuable to JFK in smoothing over ruffled feathers in a tense early Cold War period.

    Lets not mince words here. An advisor is a staff member, typically on the payroll. Hillary lived in the White House, but didn't run it. Just because staffers were intimidated by her knowledge and she had influence over the man she married does not give her experience as a foreign policy aid or president through "osmosis," as the NY Times piece so eloquently put.

    www.opedna.com
    "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

    by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:12:40 PM PST

    •  What gives more experiance, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AKTup, cpresley

      living in the White House for 8 years or living in Indonesia as a child?

      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:16:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course the former (0+ / 0-)

        But it's hard assessing that experience when the Clintons are so secretive about what counsel she offered.

        •  The simple fact is that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund, cpresley

          she does have more experiance though.

          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

          by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:20:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  More Experience, Less Wisdom. (9+ / 0-)

            And, of course, Joe Biden and Bill Richardson have more foreign policy experience than Sen. Clinton.

            •  hmmmm (0+ / 0-)

              I wonder why my list is like it is in my sig line.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:25:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wisdom, like beauty, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SaneSoutherner

              is often in the eye of the beholder.  

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:31:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Or in the eyes of a dead US soldier in Iraq. nt (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GN1927, jack rance

                .

                •  Or in the eyes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DaleA, SaneSoutherner

                  of any of 1.5 million Albanian Kosovars that were saved by the intervention she helped make possible.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:53:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And exactly how did she help (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mperloe

                    make it possible Mike?

                    By reminding her husband that he was the president?

                    What exactly did she do/say/advise/cajole that saved those lives.

                    Funny. Less than 4 years ago it was General Clark and Bill Clinton who were given the credit for the saving of those lives. Don't recall anyone (including the General or Bill Clinton) mentioning any key role that Mrs. Clinton played in that intervention back then.

                    Do you?

                    Amazing how now, in 2007 during a campaign she is getting credit for convincing Bill to do something.

                    Just sayin'.

                    "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                    by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:14:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I didn't know about (0+ / 0-)

                      her role in that until I saw it in the NYT piece and recognized the context.  Are you saying she should not have stepped in and convinced Bill to side with ALbright, Holbrooke and Clark?  I'm not sure I understand your point.

                      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:35:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And is your point (0+ / 0-)

                        that she was the final influence in the decision to go in?

                        That seems to be the case. And yet it is something we will never know. We can only consider the clues left along the way over the years since.

                        I'm just saying that until her run for president I don't recall anyone, including Bill Clinton or Wes Clark mentioning her supposed role in Kosovo.

                        The most Wes Clark has said (and this since her run) is that she was "there" for Kosovo. Cryptic at best.

                        Do I think she gave her opinion to her husband? Sure, spouses tend to do that. Do I believe her opinion is what clinched the decision? I've no reason to believe one way or the other.

                        Your assumption that she "stepped in and convinced," is just that--an assumption. One that seems to never have been assumed prior to this campaign.

                        Funny how that works, huh?
                        ;)

                        "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                        by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:57:05 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well I think (0+ / 0-)

                          it is obvious that her role was more than the NYT writer wants us to believe.  And yes, it seems like she was the one that finally convinced Bill, even though the final decision was his.  After I read this piece I looked and there seems to have been some discussion of this from the right wing nutjobs, pieces saying that Bill was a wuss and Hillary, the evil witch, had to tell him to buck up like a man.  So although it is new to me, others have known about it before but applied it differently. I guess you can make of it what you want.  It's a free country.

                          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                          by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:26:53 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Right wing nut jobs are A-1 sources (0+ / 0-)

                            for "facts".

                            At least when those "facts" help make the point for whichever candidate one happens to be backing.

                            And thank you, I will make of it what I want, as will you. Human nature never changes. We'll be doing that till the day of doom arrives--we maybe not "us" but I gurantee our descendents will be well engaged in, making of it what they will.
                            ;)

                            "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                            by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:56:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are so right. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ms in la

                            By the way, here is where I found the mention, from an October 2000 attack piece when she was running for Senate.

                            Remember, it was she who really bullied her hapless husband into ordering the bombing of Yugoslavia: she called him up and argued that the Serbs were engaged in "genocide" on the scale of the Holocaust – and reportedly threatened him with some pretty dire but unspecified consequences if the air raid sirens weren't wailing over Belgrade and soon. What she clearly wants, most of all, is not to have to get on the horn with anybody but the Joint Chiefs of Staff – and then only long enough to give the order to attack.

                            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:11:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Then why does Obama (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ms in la

                  keep funding the war?

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:21:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Depends on how you evaluate "experience" -- (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mperloe

            Cheney and Rumsfeld were highly "experienced" - and how that is related to what you want a candidate to accomplish is they should win.

            If you like GOP public policy, vote for Clinton because that's what Bill delivered and Hillary gives every indication of being more GOP lite than Bill.

            What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

            by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:16:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Right because the three (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, SaneSoutherner

              of them have all fought for the same thngs. They even defended Nixon.

              Oh wait. She helped investigate Nixon.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:25:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you really that literal and concrete? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GirlZero

                I mentioned Cheney and Rumsfeld in relation to the word "experience" (as examples of when "experience means little) and not GOP which I specifically brought up in a separate paragraph.

                Odd that Mrs. Clinton has made no effort to impeach Mssrs. Bush and Cheney who have engaged in more extreme criminal activity than Mr. Nixon did.  She was only a staffer back in the Watergate days; so, let's not give her credit for the investigation.  But now she has power and does nothing.    

                What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:18:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  My feeling on impeachment is that (0+ / 0-)

                  it would be a waste of time and a distraction that would go nowhere. I'd like to see more investigations but impeachment is a no go for me.

                  As far as experiance goes, I took your comparrison litterally because in truth Cheney and Rumsfeld did exactly what they set out to do. It wasnt that they were incapable of governing well, it was that they didn't want to. I don't think Clinton would be the same in any sense of the word.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:30:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Odd rationalizations there, Bud. (0+ / 0-)

                    On the evening of the OJ chase, I pointed out to friends that it would be impossible to impanel a jury of his peers in LA that would convict him.  That conclusion, however, was not a reason not to arrest and try him.  Crimes must be investigated, indictments (impeachment)issued if supported by the facts.  Facts not opinions.  

                    If Cheney/Rumsfeld accomplished their goals, wouldn't they also state that they governed well?

                    What will Clinton do?  More goodies for the insurance, energy, telecom, and financial services industries like they received in the '90s?  I'm sorry but anyone stupid enough to vote for the IWR and not smart enough to get a clue years later and vote for Kyl-Lieberman is too stupid to be POTUS.

                    What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                    by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:45:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Huh (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adam B, GirlZero

        Barack's life experience did not end when he left Indonesia.

        "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

        by ParaHammer on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:18:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong question. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mperloe, Marie, Luam, bumblebums, KayCeSF

        What gives more real world, real life experience, growing up in a sheltered, comfortable middle class community in Illinois, and then living well as First Lady of Arkansas and then the U.S. for decades? Or growing up in several diverse communities, from Hawaii to Indonesia, without a father, studying your ass off and becoming the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review, giving back as a community advisor and professor, and serving in the State Legislature and then Congress?

        www.opedna.com
        "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

        by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:21:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's pretty lame. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA, ms in la, cpresley, SaneSoutherner

          What gives more real world, real life experience, growing up in a sheltered, comfortable middle class community in Illinois, and then living well as First Lady of Arkansas and then the U.S. for decades?

          I had hope for you last week. It was misplaced.

          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

          by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:24:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm confused. (0+ / 0-)

            You had hope for me last week?

            www.opedna.com
            "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

            by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:26:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You were more fair minded (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Trix

              and less likely to post comments that were lame like that.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:27:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can you elaborate on "lame"? I don't know (0+ / 0-)

                how to respond to that kind of vague criticism.

                www.opedna.com
                "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:28:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Simple. (5+ / 0-)

                  If someone ever describes your life that way they will rightfully be labeled assholes. You act as if she's just a little wifey who has done nothing in her life.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:29:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not "acting" any way, I'm illustrating (0+ / 0-)

                    that when Hillary calls Obama's experience into question, she's being an absolute hypocrite.

                    www.opedna.com
                    "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                    by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:35:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Agreed. (0+ / 0-)

                      Now get back to the kitchen where you belong. Leave the important stuff to the men folk.

                      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:12:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

                        You've just illustrated my point about how women who don't support Hillary are chastised for their decision.

                        For the record, I never said any woman working for/beside/with their husbands wasn't playing a critical role. My mother helped my father run a business for years. My point, which Mike S. has painstakingly reconstrued to distract from weaknesses in his own argument, was that Hillary was not an "advisor." That her role was over-exaggerated. And that Barack Obama got just as much experience out in the real world as a community activist and professor that Hillary did in the White House.

                        But for your own amusement, and by your own admission, simply to get a rise out of me, you have gone on some sort of crusade to take the piss out of me and call my feminism into question. And you were an original here on Kos? Is this what this public forum was designed to do? Personally attack people who don't support your candidate? Anyone who questions your candidate is anti-feminism or lame?

                        Personally, I don't care if you liked me last week and now that I've learned about some unsavory tactics on Hillary's part, you don't like me. And I don't care what you think about my views on women. My mom worked tirelessly to put me through school. She teaches children with learning disabilities, she campaigned for Bobby Kennedy, and while she loved Hillary in the 1990s, she's not voting for her this primary season.

                        All kinds of ugliness comes out around the caucuses. It's fantastic to live in a democracy where this kind of public discourse is possible. But it's downright hurtful and disappointing to read the things that you wrote about me personally simply because I questioned a presidential candidate, and quite clearly not all women in general.

                        www.opedna.com
                        "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                        by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:37:37 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You poor thing. (0+ / 0-)

                          You dug your own grave with that comment. Don't blame me.

                          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                          by Mike S on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:29:27 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  BTW (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SaneSoutherner

                      If you are a "girl" then you only hurt yourself with that sort of comment. My mother thanks you for helping to shove women's lib issues backward so that your chosen candidate can score a few more points. In your world she was just a wifey for 23 years.

                      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:17:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I helped my husband start his own business. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mike S, AKTup, DaleA

                        I worked my ass off, and knew the ropes inside out. He never made a move without consulting me.   But since my name wasn't the one on the letterhead, and I "lived well", I guess I only lived off of my husband's largesse, and my contribution counted for nothing.

                        What is sad is that the people saying these things do not even comprehend how wrong it is.   Kudos to your mom, BTW.

                        Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

                        by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:26:48 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  SaneSoutherner (0+ / 0-)

                          I hope you understand that my comments about Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with the incredible achievements women make in business, with or without their husbands by their sides. I sincerely apologize if my words offended you or any other women on Kos. Everything I said was about Hillary Clinton, not anybody else, in heated debate with Mike S. Please accept my apology if you were offended, it was most certainly not my intention in the slightest. Same to anyone else who might have been.

                          www.opedna.com
                          "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                          by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:45:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Don't worry (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GirlZero

                  Mike appointed himself arbiter of the important "You'd defend it if your candidate did it" whinge. He spends most of his time here crying and telling people how much better he is at being objective than anyone else.

                  •  I like the way she (0+ / 0-)

                    recced this comment.

                    He spends most of his time here crying and telling people how much better he is at being objective than anyone else.

                    Am I crying or asking for fairness? I know that children like you don't care about fairness, you want your candidate to win regardless, but you really show that you are just the flip side of the GOP's coin.

                    I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                    by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:11:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  BTW little one. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SaneSoutherner

                    Do yopu want to know who appointed me Arbiter? It was actually Markos back in 03 before we had scoop and at least 3 years before you graced these pages.

                    I'm guessing it was also about the time that you got your learners permit.

                    I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                    by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:41:34 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  2003 was a few months before John Kerry hired me (0+ / 0-)

                      You can criticize my viewpoints, diaries, perspectives, the candidate I support, whatever. But don't call me a child. I've worked my ass off for Democrats since I was 16 and I have just as much right to be here on Kos as you do.

                      www.opedna.com
                      "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                      by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:21:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  And your initial question... (0+ / 0-)

            What gives more experiance,living in the White House for 8 years or living in Indonesia as a child?

            By your own definition, that was pretty "lame" in itself. To suppose that all of his experience came while he was a pre-teen? Pretty nervy.

            www.opedna.com
            "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

            by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:41:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure was. (0+ / 0-)

              It was designed to get these responses. It did it's job by exposing the real you.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:28:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you plant comments to get a rise out of (0+ / 0-)

                people?

                Very mature for someone who has spent the past few comments calling people childish.

                www.opedna.com
                "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:22:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  heh (0+ / 0-)

                  Last week you were this fresh faced girl who believed that we had this phenominal field that made it hard to pick.

                  This week? Your true colors come out. And of course my exposing them is the problem, not that you have them.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:29:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Perspective (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mperloe, GirlZero

        I have also lived overseas for a number of years, it granted me a perspective that I bring to politics and my opinions on foreign policy.  I value that perspective and am pleased that Obama has a similar one.

        My experience is more recent and when I was older, but there is very little that can match the actually knowing what life is like for citizens of a foreign nation.  Barack has friends from other countries that were not his friend because they were influential and powerful, but because he knows them and they lived in common circumstances.  It creates an ability to understand how those overseas perceive America and helps one to comprehend the opinions of those who would be our allies.

        You cannot really compare those experiences, but they are both valuable.

        My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
        Philly for Obama

        by Luam on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:48:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Both of my stepchildren lived overseas (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Luam

          when very young, in Japan and Italy.  While a valuable experience, that perhaps makes them a little less likely to see things from a solely parochial perspective, I can't see that it has made either of them that versed in world affairs.

          I love them. They are great kids (well, 17 and 20 now), and better than most.  But no great wisdom was bestowed on them for having lived overseas for 5 years.

          Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

          by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:10:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Experience at what? (0+ / 0-)
    •  An advisor (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AKTup, SaneSoutherner

      is anyone who regularly gives advice.  

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:20:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am not getting sucked into this...n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaleA
  •  that article was pathetic (6+ / 0-)

    Like so much political reporting in this primary season, I wondered how that made it past the NYT editors. Using employees of the Obama campaign as 'sources' to back  up the argument that Hillary Clinton's claims to FP experience are not true?  Honestly.  It's like using Wylie Coyote as a source in an article about Road Runner not being as fast as he/she claims.

    The NYT ran the same junk-food journalism when it 'reported' that the Clinton campaign had out raised the Obama campaign in donations--using a Clinton staffer as the source.

    It's sad, really, how desperate the NYT has become to write turn nothing-to-see-here non-facts into 'ahah' stories.  And Patrick Healy in particular isn't qualified to write for a middle school bake sale newsletter...

    ---
    Frameshop needs your love to survive! Click through to support the site...

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:23:08 PM PST

  •  Hillary is ... (0+ / 0-)

    smart, experienced and determined. Fair to say that nobody disputes those qualities, just the degree of.

    Regrading your title (Lewinsky) - I would hesitate to suggest that anyone qualifies their experience by claiming the invaluable guidance provided to a HUSBAND when he got caught getting a lewinsky.

    "Dear Jack: Don't buy a single vote more than necessary. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a landslide."

    by 1918 on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:27:31 PM PST

    •  I mentioned Lewinsky (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SaneSoutherner

      because ever since the Clintons started talking about her experience during the White House years, there has been discussion of how strained they were during the Lewinsky mess.  

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:34:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm smart! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Donna Z, ParaHammer, 1918, jarhead5536

    It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

  •  Though I Oppose Her I Give 2 Way Marriage Credit (5+ / 0-)

    for the participatory experience.

    I have no doubt that her supportive experience as well as Bill's Presidential experience are both significant assets to a Clinton II presidency.

    That second one is probably even more important, frankly.

    I still oppose her (or them if you will). Carter has been described as very smart but he was voted out; Nixon was smart but turned out to be so scary he was thrown out.

    I do think we've determined that the smartness floor needs to be permanently raised, but all our prospects are a strong improvement over every Republican since Ike.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:31:53 PM PST

    •  My whole purpose (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jen, SaneSoutherner

      in mentioning how smart she is was to explain why Bill might turn to her for advice.  The NYT piece implied that there was no good reason to think he would.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:43:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Double standard. (9+ / 0-)

    The same press that spent the 90's screaming that Hillary was way too involved, and overstepping her bounds, and had way too much power for a First Lady, is now flip-flopping and claiming she hadn't a political thought in her pretty little head for the entire 8 years.

    These are the same morons that claim that the entire reason Gore doesn't like her is that what amounted to the traditional VP's role fell to her, rather than him, and he was marginalized. They want to have it both ways.

    They are wrong about Gore, but correct that a lot of what Hillary did is very similar to the traditional role of a VP - being a private advisory sounding board, and functioning as a worldwide goodwill-maker behind the scenes.

    VP's before Cheney were not public policy makers. Yet for all of those decades, white male VP's have run on the "experience" of their Whitehouse years. That experience has not been poo-pooed. The press did not insist that they produce their signature on policy papers to "prove" that they played a part. No one has called their private contributions as the president's confidante,  or their feel for international affairs worthless because their overseas mission was to make nice and build personal good will and relationships.

    The very same sort of back-door, private, ceremonial and "soft" diplomatic involvement that Hillary had, has ALWAYS been accepted WITHOUT QUESTION as part of the qualifying resume when it was a man running.  No one ever batted an eye that it counted.

    But suddenly it's not good enough? Suddenly, when it's a woman claiming very similar experience, POOF! the bar got MYSTERIOUSLY HIGHER?

    Been there, heard that. Kiss my feminist ass, Mr. Healy.

    Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

    by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:40:59 PM PST

  •  After seven years of "scary stupid" (6+ / 0-)

    I will gladly welcome "scary smart."

    My new mantra: "Don't buy shit from China."

    by Radiowalla on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:42:50 PM PST

  •  Uh Huh! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GirlZero

    Something the NYT omitted: Hillary is "scary smart" and does her homework

    Hannibal Lechter was "scary smart" too, but I wouldn't want him running my country!

    A "Big Tent" is fine; What we really need are some more "Big Table" Democrats!

    by seenos on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:46:44 PM PST

  •  Wow. HRC is even more hawkish than her husband. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Donna Z

    That's the gist of what the Times wrote about her and the Kosovo war.

    Hardly a compelling reason to hand her the nomination.

    "I'll rant as well as thou."--Hamlet, Act V, Scene 1.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:57:18 PM PST

  •  Smart? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Luam, witchamakallit

    Book smart maybe, if we accept her repeated plaints that she was "tricked" and "fooled" by Bushco on the Iraq War resolution.  I'm far from being the world's most intelligent person, but I do have a lick or two of street smart, and I saw the IWR from 1000 miles away as something Dubya was going to use as a blank check for war.  So there is one alternative to Hillary being a bogus liar claiming she was "fooled" when she really played along with the IWR to maintain her "political viability" as her husband used to say.  That alternative is that she doesn't have a lick of street sense.  Is that what you really want as president, some bookish wonky type that is utterly clueless as to the slippery shady side of life?

  •  Back to the Hillary bash-a-thon. . . (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaleA, testvet6778, SaneSoutherner

    Keep it up, everyone.

    The fact that she was not on the payroll does not detract from her very real experience in The White House, nor do all the mischaracterizations of it, upthread.

    She's been Bill's mentat, all along.

    The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

    by Pacifist on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:20:16 PM PST

    •  this is D Kos Hillary has about a 6% approval (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pacifist

      rating here, after the convention and she is nominated I hope and pray the site will come together and support her none the less  the object is to get a Democratic candidate in the WH  not a Republican

      •  I know it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        testvet6778

        My patience with anything is at about 0 (my first day without a cigarette, again), right now. I was so sick with the flu that I had to give up smoking to prevent what almost inevitably becomes pneumonia. It happens every year about this time, so I may be a little more shrill than usual.

        The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

        by Pacifist on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 05:24:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  And...what does that mean? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, westcott, Sybil Liberty, GirlZero

    I have no doubt that Senator Clinton is very bright. I don't doubt that she has more experience with matters pertaining to the WHouse and the protocols of traveling the world. (note: Obama's undergrad degree is in foreign policy from Columbia. The man's not exactly clueless.)

    I do think that Team Clinton has chosen a narrative that inflates the nature and amount of that experience, but that is for the voters to decide.

    Nevertheless...what does that word "experience" mean? The value of experience is measured in lessons learned. Considering Senator Clinton has chosen to surround herself with hawks like Lee Feinstein and Jack Keane, I don't think she's learned the lessons that a president setting our nation on new course needs. Also, her Cuban policy is more dated and belligerent than her husbands'.

    A person can spend a hundred years living the WHouse and traveling the world, but if that experience brings no enlightenment and wisdom then it means nada. Those years are merely dates on the calendar if they don't produce major changes in the Clinton economic policies.

    The time spent in Washington for Clintons have given them a well-oiled machine and all of cell numbers that matter. That will probably be enough to win the nomination, but where's that old vision thing? Besides, I don't like political machines.

    •  Great to see you. :) (0+ / 0-)

      Even though we seem to be disagreeing for the moment.  I hope you find yourself pleasantly surprised if Hillary becomes President.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:04:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have no candidate (5+ / 0-)

        so disappointment doesn't enter the picture. Although I find the yammering about experience much ado about the undefined.

        I turned the teevee off during the last set of Clinton years figuring that at least a woman's right to choose wouldn't come under assault. My main political activity during those years was staying current enough to beat back the right-wingers at work. Unfortunately the Clinton economic policies have taken their toll where I live. And that was before bush made them worse.

        The idea of vp Bayh or Kerrey or Richardson gives me the creeps.

        As I said, I don't like machine politics especially those of the DLC.

    •  You so completely rock my socks, DZ (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Donna Z, KayCeSF

      Tho, I'm not wearing socks right now, but if I was.. Rocked, they would be. :D

      Wish you could get onto super speed instead of dial up, Matthews laid it out pretty well on Morning Joe, tho some was so much hyperbole, the point was dead nuts.

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

      •  Matthews? (0+ / 0-)

        Surely you can find someone less shrill to quote.  Glad to see you got your socks rocked though, or that they would be rocked if you were wearing any.  Good to see you!!

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 10:19:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How bout Ed Schultz - "Done with the Clintons" (0+ / 0-)

          Part 1 http://youtube.com/...
          Part 2 http://youtube.com/...

          Mainly because Hillary won't come on progressive radio, won't answer tough questions, won't allow unedited interviews without handler massaging.

          •  Much more believable. I'd stick with (0+ / 0-)

            Ed Schultz if I wanted sensible criticism of Hillary. Matthews goes "cuckoo for cocoa puffs" whenever Hillary is mentioned.  

            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 10:54:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, the Matthews bit wasn't much about Hillary (0+ / 0-)

              He was talking about the implications of an Obama win worldwide. For how America is viewed, for how many Americans view themselves.

              I agree about Matthews, it's that this particular piece stands up regardless of who may have said it. Definitely worth a look. just try to forget that it's the Tweetster that said it.

          •  Hey westcott! (0+ / 0-)

            You need to read more absurd things!

            Like "Hillary won't come on progressive radio" and the rest of it.  I know Ed feels dissed and therefore pissed.... but he's been slamming on her for so long he shouldn't really be all that surprised that she might not want to submit to an on air slap-fest with him.

            Here's a little pom pom free refuting of Ed's truthiness claim that she won't appear on progressive radio.
            --------------------------------

            Just last week Clinton guested on Public Radio (on Dec 20th) discussing current challenges for working women and working mothers.
            http://iptv.org/...

            Clinton guested on Air America's 'Ring of Fire' with Robert Kennedy Jr. 12 days ago. (Dec 15) For a one hour interview.
            http://www.airamerica.com/...

            Two months ago Hillary was interviewed for an hour on Public Radio (and a joint podcasting effort) by author John Grisham, who, before becoming a best selling novelist, worked as a Mississippi lawyer and was later elected as a Democrat to the Mississippi House of Representatives; serving in that capacity from 1983-1990. Who knew?
            http://www.cvillepodcast.com/...

            Also in September 2007, she was interviewed on NPR discussing the controversial Norman Hsu contributions, fielding tough questions. No handlers... just her.

            She was interviewed by Keith Olbermann last May...(Yeah, I know it's not radio, but it's progressive and we have such a small slice of the airwaves I threw it in. It's an interview. It turned up in my search.)

            Earlier this year Steve Inskeep of NPR interviewed Sen Clinton for 'Morning Edition'- tough questions on Iraq and on the presidential campaign. Not a handler in sight. Just her. You can listen, it's quite good.  
            http://www.npr.org/...

            Inskeep btw is not a softball questioner or lightweight. (From the NPR site) :

            Steve Inskeep is host of Morning Edition, the most widely heard radio news program in the United States.  Inskeep's first assignment for NPR was the 1996 presidential primary in New Hampshire. He went on to cover the Pentagon, the U.S. Senate, and the 2000 presidential campaign of George W. Bush.

            After the September 11 attacks, Inskeep covered the war in Afghanistan, the hunt for al Qaida in Pakistan, and the war in Iraq. In 2003, he was honored by the Press Club with a National Headliner Award for investigating a military raid that went wrong in Afghanistan. He has twice been part of the NPR News team that was honored with an Alfred I. duPont-Columbia University Silver Baton award for its coverage the war in Iraq.

            January 2007- she was also interviewed at length on Boston Public Radio.

            ----------------------------

            And then my Google finger started to limp and I quit....

            •  Hey ms.. It's a dead thread (0+ / 0-)

              You can speak freely. :)

              Nice that Hillary stopped by the show of one of her endorsers. And NPR, always known for the hard hitting incisive questions. "The Sequoia"..  Jon Stewart.

              Ed was making the point about candidates.. leaders.. reaching out to their base, explaining their positions, taking the heat as well as the nice and easy. He mentioned a number of programs.. Randy Roades, Stephanie Miller.. a whole bunch. "The base" as it's called.

              So, really you'll have to take it up with Ed Schultz.. the.. what was it.. number one progressive program?

              Point is, Hillary, as I'm sure you would have explained before Sept 15, 2007, seems to feel a sense of entitlement regarding the nomination, and indeed, the presidency. She has shown no interest in everyday, ordinary people. They are at the lower tiers of the machine, and it's to the surrogate endorsers to wrangle support for her.

              Hillary Clinton is a continuation of the disease that is Washington DC political gamesmanship.

              Someone says something that they feel is unconscionable for a candidate, and the game is on.. discredit, diminish, whatever.. anything it takes.

              But here's the thing.. If the most important thing is winning.. You've already lost.

              I hope like hell that Barack Obama wins this thing. We may be able to regain some the pride in this country again. We'll know for certain what we are against, and what we are for.

              You may want to read his dumb speech again.

              I can tell you this, if Barack Obama is the nominee, I will take personally the destruction of the GOP candidate, their positions.. And we'll win.

              With Hillary, you'll have to hope that the classic media strategies are still good enough, and they most certainly are not. With no real grassroots support, with a "Base" that feels demoralized and betrayed, it is unlikely that November will see much success.

              By the way, are Mike and I the only ones that just found out that Hillary failed the bar exam?

              Am I and about 5 other people here on dailykos the only ones that foresee 30 and 60 second spots with Laura Bush laughing off the implication that being first lady in Texas and in the White House somehow provide experience to be president of the United States.

              And for you, to help you.. the mistake was latching onto "Experience".. Your word should have been "Understanding"

              Hope to see CCN back to normal some day. Rational, reasonable.. all that good stuff. And I hope that the damage being done with Barack, in the name of being prepared.. pfff.. isn't too bad. :)

              •  Rolling my (0+ / 0-)

                eyes at the idea that Laura Bush as a first lady has been anything like Hillary.  But I still luv you.  And that Parahammer, who was once a Clarkie... was he just tooling around on google putting in things like "Hillary Clinton" and "bar exam" or did he hear, or perhaps read, that somewhere first?  I'm guessing the latter.

                The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                by mikepridmore on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:22:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well of course you would (0+ / 0-)

                  The "Squishy middle" will laugh along at the notion of marrying into the presidency, my opinion anyways. Then add Monica Lewinsky, if she starts to pop her head out from whatever rock she's been thrown under, then to stay on topic, the advise of Hillary has been rumored by many to save her upcoming Senate run from disaster through the scandal. on and on. and I had no idea she failed the bar exam, Kerry didn't even do that.. I don't think! :p

                  Anyways, the big mo will come from the "Base" and the grassroots activists. If Obama takes off early, he will be a juggernaught and the GOP will remain a tatter wreck of it's former self. With Hillary, they will arise like the living dead, with Falwell out in front haha. what was the quote, nothing will incense the GOP to GOTV like Hillary Clinton, not even a run by the devil himself. That's too true. With Obama, many will choose to sit out and let the chips fall where they may. I know too many people who voted for GW TWICE who feel that way.

                  To paraphrase WKC.. vote for Hillary Clinton.. there's a word for it.. mistake!

                  Anyways, just kinda venting out loud, I know you guys are all in for the Hillster.

                  And I have no reason to believe that General Clark would not be sought after by an Obama  admin. His background and understanding of world affairs is an asset to anyone who seeks the Oval office, regardless of the projection of experience from their husbands, wives, gardeners, neighbors, or whatever. :)

              •  Everything dies so fast here.... (0+ / 0-)

                I would talk to you on a live thread too, westcott! My primary blog time kicks in after midnight though.

                Anyways, I'm not sure that comment was all for me or for general consumption.  But let's see...I didn't say anything about experience or "understanding" and actually have never even touched that rather nutrient-free argument.

                But maybe you were just rattling off a host of symptoms of that dreaded 'disease' which you call 'Hillary'. That's a new one- Hillary as a Disease! I love metaphor so from a communications standpoint I can appreciate that ... I am left pondering though, if she is a terminal disease like cancer, or if she might be more like a bad case of the flu? Or bronchitis? Where you could like-- take two Obamas and feel better in the morning? Gargle with a little Biden for quick relief?

                And yes, Ed does have a big audience, that's true. I've never found him to be as progressive as he claims but that's just me and pet issues. For years he insisted any discussion of insecure voting systems was nothing but conspiracy theory bunk and had no place on his show. (kinda like over here) Then he finally saw the light like the rest of the world -- but it took an eternity. Morning Edition btw is the "most widely heard adio news program in the United States"... which is kinda big too.

                I agree -- I'd love to hear all my (Dem) candidates on Randi, and most especially on Thom Hartmann, for whom I have enormous respect. I'd love to hear them on Young Turks too. But so far, I've only caught a few second - third tiers on progressive radio. We still have about a year to go though. Would be grand if we actually had more progressive airwaves beyond the designated end-of-band sliver too.

                I don't unconditionally love any of them, westcott. So what I did to maintain sanity(!) when the lineup was in its seedling stages --was to super shrink the role of president to a mere figurehead. In my mind only. heh. In that way I was able to place greater emphasis on the role of cabinet and other likely admin appointments and focus there. I needed to be able to get behind someone and wasn't having much luck with the current lot on their own.

                You know me... I tend to give a huge benefit of the doubt to Wes Clark. Even when it hurts like hell. I can therefore be called a sycophantic bootlicking blonde cultist idiot fool wacko nutbag lockstep mindless sheep for it. (And probably have been) But until this week I hadn't even picked anyone to vote for in the primaries. Then Clinton confirmed to the press that she would put Wes in her administration, were she to be elected. And I made my choice, again based on my own fantasy restructuring of the executive branch vis a vis the cabinet (shrunken ... soley for my purposes);)

                http://www.wqad.com/...

                I'd work equally hard for whoever gets the nom. I find flaws in them all and seldom subscribe to the purity theory of my candidate vs yours and your mother wears army boots anyways.

                My only point was... that it wasn't true that Hillary wouldn't ever appear on leftist radio.

                Now back to Pakistan - which is on fire.

                •  I'm not so sure this thread is (0+ / 0-)

                  actually dead.  It does seems to have a very slow pulse.  And I can't find a single thing I disagree with in your comment.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:03:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  It just so happens.... (0+ / 0-)

        My town (of 600 people) has written and received a grant for (ta da!) DSL. By June I should have joined the world on the information speedway. This is not a frivolous adventure. There are many unemployed people in the area who need this service if they want to work out of their homes now that all the factories have been shuttered.

        Matthews, who does hate the Clintons beyond all reason, was forth coming on Morning Joe. How he skews his personal sense of nationalism to justify his conservative center is a matter for the Laskoffs to decipher. What? In Matthews' spit-filled brain only republicans love the country? Nevertheless, like Sy Hersh, Matthews does see that an O presidency completely changes our interface with the world. I'm still pondering that idea.

        I don't see any Democratic candidate---and certainly no republican---willing to do the heavy lifting of getting to the root of problem: holding people accountable. Trips around the world to assure other countries that we are "opened for business" only glosses over our failure to standup for the rule of law. The world is well aware of our sins. Also, the American people need and deserve an eye-opening education in where they, their politicians, and the prime suspects have taken the country. Without a baptism of truth, we risk, as we did when Iran-Contra received its white wash, a return of the vampires of state. That should be a "lesson learned" for those claiming experience; however, it would seem that the lesson is to be that we need a bigger rug. Thus, I have no candidate.

        I have several problems with the prospect of Senator Clinton's rise to the WHouse. I do not want to ever see Lee Feinstein (bush's policy of preemption didn't go far enough) near the seat of power. He is widely considered Clinton's go-to foreign policy wonk who will be named NSA. Good grief. The man has spent far too much time with Max Boot. Feinstein needs to leave and take Gen. Keane with him.

        Okay, my morning rant is getting rather long. Have a happy holiday Westcott, and thank you. Put some socks on to go with th'm thar bootstraps.

        •  I've always liked (0+ / 0-)

          your inner fire that comes out when you talk about things you are passionate about.  Even when I disagree, I still like seeing that fiery spirit.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:55:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Also, no offense but.. (0+ / 0-)

    this is the most absurd thing I've ever read. The pom pom diaries are expected, but.. whew. man.

    failing to accept that, unless Hillary had stepped in, there would probably have been no intervention in Kosovo either.

    You know I luv ya tho Mike. ;)

    •  What if that is true? (0+ / 0-)

      Then it wouldn't be absurd at all.  I luv ya back, I hope you know.  Even if you are wrong about "things." ;)

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 11:38:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, then you could at least have said (0+ / 0-)

        that she has invented a longer lasting light bulb, a hydrogen fuel cell that will get 750 miles to a tank, and she has reworked her home air conditioning unit to reverse the melting of the polar ice caps.. I mean, if that were true, it wouldn't be absurd at all.. it would be so sweet! I'd vote for her then for sure! :D

        •  I keep reading (0+ / 0-)

          descriptions of what happened that lead me to believe her voice was the deciding factor.  So :p to you!!

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:51:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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