Daily Kos

bomb iran now

Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 09:26:44 PM PDT

this is sarcasm, ok?

i don't think we should or could bomb iran without devastating repercussions, but i have some concerns about what we know we know about iran's nuclear programs, what we know we don't know, and even scarier, what we don't know we don't know -- the "unknown unknowns".

the NIE report came out recently and states that our intelligence services are not aware of any current operations that iran has undertaken to build nuclear weapons. bush says that's a good reason to keep holding our stupid and uninformed hostile position towards iran. hillary clinton says that's exactly why we need to be saber-rattling (calling their state military terrorists) and negotiating -- a stick-and-carrot approach. i don't trust bush or hillary, so here's my thinking on the subject.

  1. iran does not currently have nukes. if they did, they'd brag about them
  1. iran wants nukes. it's the biggest military threat against another nation, and with the hostile idiots running our country, iran has a right to feel threatened. so having nukes wouldn't prevent our idjit president from attacking them, but it would make it so much more risky.
  1. sanctions will not work to prevent iran from developing nukes. they want them, and the more financial pain we bring to their country, the more determined they'll be to obtain nukes.
  1. we should feel threatened by a nuclear-capable iran. this is perhaps one of the few things that bush and i agree on. iran is home to a zillion people who hate our guts, and who would detonate a nuke no matter the repercussions. that's just CRAZY. and we should fear crazy.
  1. there is no way to get the crazy USA-haters to stop hating us. you cannot make some people like you. but we could at least stop being arrogant assholes, invading innocent and non-threatening countries like we're king of the hill. but no matter how much aid we give to the poor and hungry and sick people around the globe, there will always be some assholes who don't like us. i'm fine with that.

one "solution" to our iran problem is to bomb them first, before they obtain nukes and bomb us. but who in america thinks that iran has ICBM's capable of reaching our shores? or bombers and fighter jets who could bring their nukes here? since iran has no capability of hitting us with a nuke, we really should turn down the rhetoric of fear and start being more reasonable in our negotiations.

if i were president, i'd threaten iran with a nuclear strike. sure, it's an aggressive stance, perhaps even more aggressive than bush and cheney and rice have been. so what -- a nuclear deterrence plan doesn't work unless your enemies are quite sure that you will not hesitate to hit them with your nukes. since i studied nuclear proliferation in college a little over 15 years ago, a lot has changed on the world stage. heck, bush even sought to ignore or overturn all the nuclear peace settlements previous presidents had sought to create and preserve with the soviets/russians. but since we haven't yet seen bush use a nuke (i'm not asking him to), we still need to do something to let the world know that our nukes were built to be used. that's the only way to deter sane people from striking us first. hey hillary, that's my stick.

then, we have to protect ourselves from the insane haters -- the muslim jihadists who WANT to bring an end to all life as we know it, since it's their personal religious mission to destroy anyone or anything that doesn't follow their zealous beliefs. since religious zealots are dangerous to all modern democracies, our foreign policy should be redesigned to support democracy worldwide, regardless over whether or not those democracies like us. as long as they're run as rational governments -- and surely the world must realize that bush is not rational -- we should have less to fear. heck, i support hezbolah in the gaza strip because dangit, they won their election. had we stopped supporting despots like sadam hussein and the shah years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. so democracy and economic support should be our carrot.

an alternate strategy would be to bomb iran with nukes now. it doesn't matter where we hit. apologize for missing their nuclear programs, but as stephen colbert said, if they want an atom bomb we should give it to them. surely the world would be upset with us if this happened. but we would then have a living, modern example of what nuclear devastation is like -- perhaps it's different than chernobyl or nagasaki -- and just maybe more people would be horrified / mortified of what happens in the aftermath, thus inspiring a new generation of people who are not only afraid of the power of nuclear weapons, but working with all their might to get rid of them.

i suggest to anyone who is interested, check out A Canticle for Leibowitz, one of the best sci-fi books i've ever read. it's a protest against nuclear weapons, and a chronicle of what could happen should we be so gutless and cynical as to bomb iran first.

*

oh yeah, i'm not sure how to tie this in but it also needs to be noted that the intelligence on iraq was correct -- they had no nuclear program -- yet bush interpreted our lack of knowledge about a program and saddam's hostile posturing to mean that we should invade. do we feel that the nie assessment is correct? what if our intelligence is wrong, and iran has a nuke program that is so far underground that our sources haven't uncovered it? again i'd like to postulate that iran has every reason in the world to develop nuclear weapons, and relatively few reasons not to do so. i'm not sure i trust our intelligence agencies to really know the truth on this, so again i must agree with bush, we should fear the fact that iran is using so many centrifuges to refine uranium. however i'm not sure this is the smoking gun / mushroom cloud that we should fear most. no, the greatest thing for us to fear (now that we've already pissed off the world with so many other crappy actions, like promoting torture and repealing the right of habeus corpus) is the reaction of the russians, chinese, french, british, muslim nations and oil-rich states should we bomb iran. after all, we could see $200/barrel oil or a very painful blockade of oil imports to the US should we attack iran, an oil-rich opec nation.

Tags: iran, nukes, nuclear, george w. bush, hillary clinton, SALT, peace (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

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  •  W.T.F.? n/t (4+ / 0-)

    "Never" forget 8-6-08: the glorious day edscan "made" the Rec List.

    by Ekaterin on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 09:43:38 PM PDT

    •  Ignorance is far more dangerous than relig zealot (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ekaterin, forgore

      and you display ignorance; not only that, you base your whole argument on ignorance.

      weeping.

      hen, we have to protect ourselves from the insane haters -- the muslim jihadists who WANT to bring an end to all life as we know it,

      have you thought about this for more than 10 seconds or did you just assume that if Michael Savage said it it must be true?

      Iranians are NOT insane haters. If they were, consider the argument Reese Erlich makes:  Iran has enough weaponry to inflict serious damage on everyone in their neighborhood:  US, Saudi, Israel..right now, today.  They have not done so, and have not done so in the past 200 years.
      Why?  
      Because Iranians are eminently SANE strategic thinkers, and they are an intensely family-oriented society:  if they attacked someone, there would be a counterattack and their precious children would suffer.

      since it's their personal religious mission to destroy anyone or anything that doesn't follow their zealous beliefs.

      Most Iranians HATE the religious mullahs who run their country; many consider Islam an imposition on their far more ancient Persian culture.  But they know that they are capable of reforming their own culture.  It's their business.

      since religious zealots are dangerous to all modern democracies, our foreign policy should be redesigned to support democracy worldwide, regardless over whether or not those democracies like us. as long as they're run as rational governments -- and surely the world must realize that bush is not rational -- we should have less to fear. heck,

      don't know if the above is supposed to reflect rationality, satirize rationality, be based on rationality:  it doubles back on itself.  
      Iranians are NOT irrational; their leaders understood long-term strategic thinking from before the US was a gleam in Jefferson's eye.

      i support hezbolah in the gaza strip because dangit, they won their election. had we stopped supporting despots like sadam hussein and the shah years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

      Yup.

      so democracy and economic support should be our carrot.

      I find mindless mouthing of the "carrot & stick" meme to reflect a fundamental failure to think through what "c & s" assumes.  

      It assumes that the US is the parent, the superior, who is in a position to reward or punish an unruly child.

      Iran is a mature nation, not a child.  It is arrogant for the US to assume it has the right to fashion another states' behavior.
      Moreover, Iran does not NEED carrots US has to give; that may have worked with N Korea, but Iran has a robust economy, natural resources, manufacturing, industry.  It is precisely because Iran has a dynamic, educated, young demographic, natural resources, and is geographically located in the next center of global power, that the US and Israel feel it must be taken down a peg.  Israel wants hegemony over the ME; it does not have the economic wherewithal, absent US aid.  Their way of cutting Iran down to size is by bankrupting Iran -- the economic sanctions US is imposing are aimed at crippling Iran's banking and mercantile systems.  Not a carrot, an anti-carrot.

      Besides respect for its sovereignty, The only thing Iran wants from the US --the only carrot-- is a security promise, that US will not attack it.  And that US will not seek to undermine its government, the way it did in 1953 when CIA overthrew democratically elected Mossadeq.

  •  Only Bush could understand this LOL (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ekaterin, Owllwoman
    •  The rest of us must understand REALITY (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ekaterin

      about Iran, not the Bush/neocon/limbaugh version.

      Fortunately, our school children get better information from their libraries than we do from the Yalies and the pundits.

      Suggest you look in juve section of your library for: "The Persian Empire" by Karen Zeinart, for starters.

  •  In 2002 The Supreme Leader issued (0+ / 0-)

    a Fatwa{that is a supreme law}against Nuclear weapons. After seeing what 9-11 did he decided that Iran is a peace loving Country and the Koran is against Nuclear Weapons.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 04:05:01 AM PDT

  •  Iranians do NOT hate US (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ekaterin

    we should feel threatened by a nuclear-capable iran. this is perhaps one of the few things that bush and i agree on. iran is home to a zillion people who hate our guts, and who would detonate a nuke no matter the repercussions. that's just CRAZY. and we should fear crazy.

    take deep breath
    get calm
    in out in out   okay.

    STOP REPEATING THE G$$DAMN F**KING NONSENSE PROPAGANDA that Iran hates the US.  

    Okay?

    Iran is a home to 65 to 70 million people who love the US.  Iran is the most US-friendly nation in the entire Middle East.
    -
    check this out:  Iranians are the third most populous group of internet users.  Iranians at home & diaspora frequent this site:  spend some time reading what they have to say about themselves, their government, USA, Jews-- it's a no-holds barred discussion with opinions all over the map. It's one way I am trying to learn what Iranians think.

    http://www.iranian.com/

    You know how folks complain about madrassas and how they teach kids Quran only, and hate America?  That's Saudi Araba and Pakistan, our allies; it's not USA, which has sophisticated schools and state-paid higher education where admission is highly competitive.  There are engineers and scientists galore in Iranian universities; 60% of them are women.  

    A friend just returned from a 'peace and citizen diplomat' trip to Iran and showed me his pictures.  A union activist in his other life, my friend went out of his way to talk to 'blue collar' Iranians, from the goatherder to the shopkeeper, to Iranian soldiers, and yes, an exception to the blue collar, a VP in Iran's government.  He had dinner with Iranians in their homes, went to Muslim prayer services, was "mobbed" by 80 Iranian schoolkids at a museum.

    Did you know Tehran has a museum to Peace? It does not have photos & implements of war or destruction or people dying; it is a museum to peace.

    There is so much that Americans do not know about Iran.  Please, please, please STOP propagating lies about the Iranian people, then basing horrible conclusions on them.  Learn about the culture, the people, the history, from an honest perspective, not the bilge our own government feeds us.

    Please revise & update your diary.  If Kos joins the addle-brain Iranophobia chorus, who is left to stand for sanity in this world?

     

  •  good diary... (0+ / 0-)

    ....I like your points...

    but they'd be easier to read if you used some punctuation...

    Just sayin'

    Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane. -Philip K. Dick- Economic Left/Right: -4.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.97

    by Ubik on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:52:25 AM PDT

  •  High snark or highly confused? (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know.  I urge the diarist to consider a re-write.

    I am leaning towards high snark though.

    i suggest to anyone who is interested, check out A Canticle for Leibowitz, one of the best sci-fi books i've ever read. it's a protest against nuclear weapons, and a chronicle of what could happen should we be so gutless and cynical as to bomb iran first.

    In my mind, anyone who reccomends A Canticle for Leibowitz is not all bad.  I re-read it a couple months ago.  It was written when the Cold War was pretty warm - way back then - but it may well have been inspired by the Bush Two Crew.

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