Daily Kos

C'mon, Folks, it's Politics

Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 04:54:08 PM PDT

These candidate and anti-candidate diaries are getting to be toxic cesspools--just about all of them--and I'd have to think that none of them are doing your respective candidates any good whatsoever. The name calling and the backbiting at Democrats is bad enough, but nonetheless expected in a primary season.  For many, I'd imagine, the first reflex is to find the scroll bar.  Perhaps that's why some try to skirt the scroll bar by resorting to the photobucket image of headline-sized type--red, of course--imploring those fucking fucks who that fucker does not agree with to, rather expectedly, fuck off.  My, how the level of what passes for political discourse on this site has been elevated.

The point of this diary, though, centers on the fact that for too many here, it seems, the slings and arrows of political campaigning are so virulent so as to cause grown adults to loose all sense of proportion and to melt into fetid pools of sludge every time a cross word is directed toward our beloved candidates by one of his or her rivals. Well, enough of that.  It's time to toughen up a little.  Yes, it's time we all lost our political virginity and look like we've been through this before.  

Before going any further in demonstrating to the readers of this site (participants and lurkers, alike) that we still haven't lost our political, um, innocence, don't you think we should all take a step back and first come to understand--and I mean really get it--that elections are not moral purity contests and that every candidate has an obligation to exploit--that's not a bad word--every legal advantage available to her or him that may be seen as leading to success?   Where is it written that the purest of heart and most incorruptible of deed will win this nomination and thereby gain the right to at least ask for our vote to be nothing short of the most powerful person in the world?  

Now I'm not advocating that we turn a blind eye to anything illegal or even anything grossly immoral.  But what I am saying is that there are things that get done in political campaigns that are well within the rules of engagement that are going to happen because the stakes could not be higher and people with the best of intentions but surely lacking in judgment are going to make decisions that are, in the end, not wise--especially if you get caught.  

Take for instance the planted question at the Clinton campaign event in Iowa.  The staffer who made the request that Ms. Gallo-Chasanoff ask the global warming question likely did so because she thought it would help get her candidate's message out, and it probably would have had Gallo-Chasanoff not been uncomfortable enough about the thing to talk about it to the press.  But, c'mon, do you really believe that this is the first time that a question was planted by a campaign?  Is it so shocking that campaigns manage events to their best advantage?  Judging from the weeks' worth of comments professing outrage here, you'd have thought the staffer, before handing off the question to Gallo-Chasanoff, had killed off the several people who had turned down her request that they ask it.  

And so, too, with this flap over Obama's decision to bus in Iowa college students so they can now participate and vote--hopefully for him, yes, that's their plan--in a caucus that has now been rescheduled to a date where many of them will still be out of state for the holidays.  If it's legal for these kids to vote in the Iowa caucuses--yes, the only qualification is whether it's legal--then Obama would be a fool not to try to get as many of them back into the state to vote as possible.  What is so damn difficult about that?  If it looks unseemly, there's a risk his campaign will have to take in looking opportunistic and unfairly exploitative in the eyes of the Iowa voters.  If Clinton wants to make a stink over it, fine, she has a right to respond to Obama's move.  She's the one who risks looking as though she's attempting to disinfranchise voters.  

And, yes, it's fair game that we comment on it here, but, my friends, the "Oh, I'm so offended s/he did that" attitude that sweeps through this site every time one candidate does something that falls just the other side of angelic evinces nothing but a political neophyte's naïvete that is frankly embarrassing.  We don't need five days of recommended diaries the plow the same ground as the four days that preceeded it. Aren't we that so-called reality-based community that supposedly understands politics and the way it is played?  

So, let's be real about a few things, okay?  

No candidate has any exclusive hold on the truth or some higher right to the nomination, and not everyone who supports some candidate other than yours--whomever you are for--is some deluded rube or right-winger-in-training.  Hillary Clinton is not the spawn of Karl Rove and Ann Coulter.  Barak Obama is not inspirational successor to John F. Kennedy.  And Diogenes did not leave his lamp on John Edwards' door step the night before he announced his candidacy.  

These are all fairly flawed candidates, who each in their own way is going to have problems convincing rather large swaths of the Democratic electorate to first support them, then get out and vote for them, and in the meantime to do what they can to get others to do likewise.  Yes, Clinton is polarizing and there are none too few here who wouldn't dream of supporting her unless she's the nominee (and even then then, should she win the nomination, there are far too many here who profess they won't vote for her).  But fine; let's accept that for what it is.  But does it do our party any good to read ad nauseum that Clinton is so despicable, or as one kossack said, that the hostage incident is emblematic of what we can expect for the next four years if she is elected?  I don't think so.  

The top diary of the day for most of last Sunday--not that it was much different from any other--was another in the long succession of anti-Clinton diatribes.  It was posted, of course, as an invective-laden answer to an earlier anti-Obama diary that centered on the latter's student mobilization plan.  (I could do a busing joke here but will forbear.)   Anyway, each of these rants does little but invoke outrage and lend further credence to the idea that we are the angry, unthinking "activists" who in reality sit at home in our jammies pounding out red meat rantings to stir up the emotionality that turns up more heat than it produces light.

Moreover, when one of these candidates shows yet another gaping chink in his or her electoral armor, talking about it is not verboten, and calling that candidate to task for it in an effort to effect the narrative is not tantamount to defending the indefensible.  Thus, when John Edwards' campaign releases a video on the the senator from New York's way with language, or when Hillary Clinton takes umbrage at Barak Omama's health care plan, those statements are generally fair commentary on the a rival's perceived gaffe or failure of policy.  It is not, as one said in a recent diary, the pathetic last gasps of a candidate's (Clinton's as it turned out) campaign (assumedly before she falls from current front-runner to sub-Gravellian numbers by next week).  That said, do we really need to see John Edwards' Greatest YouTube Hits for weeks on end.  Honestly, the first couple dozen times was sufficient.

Folks, all this moral outrage and juvenile sniping is not getting us anywhere toward electing one of these folks to office.  And while I'm not looking for someone who can play guitar well enough so we can sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, it would be nice to think that what we're taking so much time out of the day to write is actually leading to something productive.  I mean, really: how many minds are being changed or motivated to action by what is written in these diaries?  Any?  Does someone really think that if he finds Hillary Clinton to be a candidate he may support that he'll change his mind if you call her supporters Clintonistas?  Are those the same people you're going to be excited to go out on GOTV efforts with next fall if Clinton does manage to win this thing?

Can we put aside the ideological purity and the over-the-top moral affrontery, and get on with doing something positive?

Come on, this is a long hard slog, and while the primary process can be bloodier than a Kansas City slaughterhouse killing floor, can we at least try to be a little more politically hardened about what is written here between now and the time we have a candidate?  I honestly believe it will help elect that person after he or she is chosen if we are.

Tags: Candidate diaries, meta, rant (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 77 comments

  •  You're trying to take my virginity? (6+ / 0-)

    My precious, precious purity?

    Bad man!

  •  it's how things have always been done (9+ / 0-)

    seems to be the excuse. whatever. i thought we were trying to change political paradigms. maybe this is one we need to think about, too.

    there's an old saying: if airlines advertised the same way politicians do, they'd keep telling us how often their competitors crash, and soon, no one would want to fly. and people wonder why so many americans are so turned off by politics.

    •  It's About Winning (6+ / 0-)

      The primary losers won't be changing much.  It's because the stakes are so damn high that you play hard, you play tough, and you play to win.  As GOTV points out, you also run risks of going overboard.  The voters will determine whether that happens.  But the people around here squawking about every little thing like it's the worst offense known to mankind are just silly.

      FWIW, for all the complaining about what candidates and campaigns did in 2004, I can only think of one seriously low blow, from Sharpton, when he complained that Dean didn't have any African-Americans in his cabinet.  Other than that, it was fairly tame.  And so far, this campaign, it's been fairly tame again.  About the only place where I see many over-the-top attacks or reactions is not out in Iowa or NH or in the press, it's at Daily Kos.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:22:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Voter suppression and intimidation (7+ / 0-)

    is not just politics.

    When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

    by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:03:59 PM PDT

    •  You May Want to Read... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BoringDem

      ...this.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:16:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And you might want to read (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Elise

        When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

        by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:21:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There Wasn't Much There Except Histrionics... (0+ / 0-)

          ...about voter intimidation, when in fact nobody votes for another month.  Unless you have a crystal ball, I think you're complaining about things that couldn't yet have happened.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:23:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your vote constitues fraud (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Elise, Number5

            and voter fraud is a crime.

            What if it were a Republican saying that a month before the caucus?

            It is intimidation and you know it.  Why are you dismissing it so readily?

            When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

            by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:26:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK, I Know It's Intimidation (0+ / 0-)

              Thanks for calling me a liar.

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:29:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I didn't call you a liar. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Elise

                But you called it histrionics to be concerned about it.  Were students allowed to vote in the last election you were involved in?  What reaction would you have had if you opponent was trying to keep them away from the polls?  Would you have dismissed it or fought against it?  Would you have encouraged people to fight for students' rights or made fun of them for giving a damn about access to polls?

                When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

                by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:33:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, Exactly What I Implied (3+ / 0-)

                  Yes, it's clear I implied there's absolutely no reason to be concerned about it.  You're not jumping to conclusions or mischaracterizing what I wrote AND implied.  And of course, you're not using bullshit rhetorical questions, because OF COURSE students weren't allowed to votei in the last election I was involved in.  And OF COURSE I did nothing about it, because, you know, it popped my political cherry to think, OH MY GOD, SOMEONE MAY TRY TO SHAPE THE ELECTORATE TO HELP THEIR CANDIDATE AND HURT THEIR OPPONENTS.  Because, you know, that never happens, so if it may even be suggested this time, one shouldn't just call bullshit and argue against it and do what you can to fight against it, you should act as if it's never happened before, that your campaign is completely pure in every regard and your opponents are undiluted evil in every regard, and affecting that pose will foster greater discourse and NEVER yurn people off to your candidate, and it will NEVER make you look either disingenuous and/or naive.

                  The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                  by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:41:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As I said below (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Elise

                    This has nothing to do with who I support and everything to do with what I believe.  My ethics aren't situational.

                    I'm not acting as if it hasn't happened before. I'm pissed because it had happened before.  It's a dirty trick used all the time by the other side.  I'm fucking appalled that someone on our side is using it in such a high profile campaign.  

                    We fought back when Katherine Harris did it.  We fought back when Ken Blackwell did it.  We should ignore it or dismiss it when Clinton and Dodd do it. Does that sum up the zeitgeist?

                    Dismiss it as histrionics all you want but I'll keep fighting for what I think is right.

                    When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

                    by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:49:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Or how about (0+ / 0-)

              WARNING WARNING WARNING

              Students WILL lose funding and their parents will get screwed at tax time if the primary in Iowa.

              WARNING WARNING WARNING

              "Stop the drama. Vote Obama!"

              by Number5 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:30:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Personally, I can't wait until the general (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            clonecone

            election in 2008 - when Republicans say the EXACT same thing that Clinton and Dodd have said - and then toss their quotes back in our faces!

            This is her message (pdf) You can see the same mailer in  this diary.

            A Republican used that mailer...and now Clinton is continuing in the tradition and using the SAME language.

            "This is a process for Iowans. This needs to be all about Iowa, and people who live here, people who pay taxes here," she told the Clear Lake crowd.

            Link.

            Complaining about things that haven't yet happened? There are stories every goddamned election year about how Republicans have attempted to suppress the vote for college students. I'm positive you've read them. This isn't something that's new - and you know that it starts by mixing messages. The intention here was to make college students feel like they were breaking the law - if she can get some of them to stay away from the caucus, then she has an easier chance of winning. She's started with the mixed message (the law says they can vote there, but it's certainly "unethical" and it might be "fraud"), and the next step of course is to challenge anyone who looks like a student to prove residency when they show up to caucus.

            This is indeed politics. We're going all the way back to the days of Jim Crow politics - instead of suppressing African American voters - the goal is to suppress the youth vote.

            Continue to dismiss it all you want, but if this is the way Clinton is going to play "politics" in the White House, well I don't see a goddamned difference between her doing it and Karl Rove doing it.

            •  OK, You're Outraged, Nobody Else Is (2+ / 0-)

              That strategy worked great for Bob Dole, because telling people you're righteously indignant and they're not, it makes them like you and want to love your candidate.  

              And nobody else cares.  You're Cassandra.  

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:21:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They aren't? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                clonecone

                That's interesting...you know, no one seemed to care about this story when you wrote about it on the FP - and yet you wrote it anyway. I wonder why that is. Could it be because YOU felt that it was something that people should pay attention to? I believe that's what you said about it.

                And you know what, I'm not the only person who cares about this story. The Brennan Center cares, Young Voter PAC and Future Majorty care, The Iowa Independent cares, and I'm sure I could keep going on this for a while - because there are plenty of  stories on google about it. And it's all over Iowa.

                But yeah, I'm the ONLY one who cares here.

              •  And you may find this hard to believe - (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                clonecone

                but not everything is about "my candidate" - some of it is about what is right and what is wrong.

                I have been registering people to vote since I turned 18. I've registered Republicans and Democrats and I haven't cared about how many or what they believed. I register people to vote because I think that EVERY person in this country has the right to express their opinion through voting. I did that before I'd ever heard of Barack Obama.

                So you can imply all day long that I care about this only because my candidate is the one being attacked - but you couldn't be MORE wrong about that. The REASON that I support Obama is because he SHARES my belief that every American deserves the right to vote - without being harassed and because he's worked to help make that happen HIS whole life.

                If it makes it easier for you to think it's about my candidate - then I suppose you can go ahead and do that, but that is simply not the case. And you know what else, I'd be offended by the fact that you thought that? But I've been offended by so much bullshit here lately that at this point, it's just another drop in the bucket.  

    •  I didn't say "just" politics; (4+ / 0-)

      I said politics, and there's a difference.  What I mean is--and I assume you're talking about Clinton's attempt to negate Obama's efforts to boost college student participation at caucuses--yeah, she's going to try to do what she can to frame his efforts in a manner that suits the short-comings of her appeal.  That is, she knows damn well that he has a greater appeal among the college age voters, so, she paints his efforts as illegitimate.  Okay, I agree that she's wrong.  I agree that she's trying to suppress votes, but that's her gamble.  Personally, I think it makes her look foolish, but others may disagree.

      Her stance is fair game for criticism, to be sure, but for four days?  Holy shit.  

      Voter suppression (not voter intimidation) is as old a practice as there is and as part and parcel of electoral politics as yard signs and kissing babies.  To argue against it is something I can understand; to be morally outraged by it I find to be indicative of a certain political naïvete.

      •  I think it makes her look foolish. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Elise, Number5

        I also think it makes her look like a criminal.

        I don't think it should be so easily dismissed as a political tactic.  If it were a Republican doing this we would (and have in the past) be screaming and calling for action to be taken.  We can't let something so unethical slip by just because someone on our side happens to be the one doing it.  We're supposed to be better than that.

        When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

        by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:24:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not here to argue the merits (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Runs With Scissors

          her position, and thought I drew enough examples written for and against each candidate to clearly demonstrate that the merits are precisely what I am not talking about.  This diary is about how we talk about what goes on in campaigns, and how we treat those things here.  In that context, if you want to use the diary to denigrate your candidate's rival, then I clearly did not accomplish my goal with you.

          •  I find it offensive (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Elise

            that you are attempting to convince me that voter suppression is just part of the game.  It has nothing to do with who I support and everything to do with what I believe.  If I didn't believe in it I wouldn't bust my ass doing GOTV every election.

            When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

            by clonecone on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:36:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're making it sound as though I'm (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Runs With Scissors

              defending the practice.  I'm not.  I'm merely recognizing it for what it is, and what it is is something that every campaign does in one form or another.  It's done every time some candidate or campaign says anythin negative about an opponent (the desired effect of which is to give people a reason to keep from turning out for that opponent).

              It's a fact of life in politics and it's not worth getting upset over.  It's something worth reversing.

              That's the point I'm try to make.  Complaining about it here isn't worth a shit; doing GOTV to combat it is.

              •  Recognizing it for what it is? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                clonecone

                It's illegal. I haven't seen you say that. And to suggest that outrage shows naivete?

                Right. When was the last time someone said YOU couldn't vote? When was the last time you were misdirected to your precinct? Or the last time you were told you were part of an attempt to commit fraud by caucusing in your state?

                If an attempt to violate the very thing our Democracy stands on - the right to vote - doesn't bother you, then I've gotta say - I'm pretty disappointed.

                •  Again, this diary was pretty carefully laid out (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Runs With Scissors

                  so as not to pass judgment on the merits or demerits of what any campaign is doing, but to discuss the reaction to it at this website.  So I may understand what you are saying clearly, though, precisely what did Clinton do that is illegal?  

                  More generally, though, I still believe that I am not getting my point through; I do not believe that voter fraud is okay--and I don't see where it occured in this Iowa student flap--I'm saying that voter supression is part of any political campaign and that the best way to deal with it is to counteract it; not complain about it.

                  But if you can show me where out-and-out voter fraud occured, please do.

                  •  Well, it isn't technically illegal yet - (0+ / 0-)

                    that's how Republicans have gotten away with voter suppression for so long, isn't it.

                    As I said above - she's started out with the misinformation campaign. She's also stating that her opinion is that Iowa state law is wrong - unethical - and fraudulent. Of course, I don't remember her ever saying that students in college in NY shouldn't register to vote there for her...and I don't remember her echoing Republicans when they questioned students in Ohio and PA during 2004 elections, but I suppose when your own election is at stake and you're losing in polls, you'll do just about anything to win.

                    So, now there are thousands of students who are registered or were going to register in Iowa - and many of them are wondering if voting there is illegal.

                    •  Well, if by your own admission it's not illegal, (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Runs With Scissors

                      then that's why you haven't seen me say that it is, and I think your disappointment is highly misplaced.  This diary is assertedly not intended as a Clinton vs. Obama diary, but that's what much of it has become, apparently because I failed to do denounce a certain candidate's campaign practices.  I did, however, clearly state that I am not defending what she said.

                      But, so long as we're on the subject, I will say this:  In the long run, I'll place my bets on Iowa college students to understand correctly whether they have a right to vote or not, and if one candidate is helping them do that, it may well inure to that candidate's benefit.  Conversely, if another couple of candidates are trying to tell Iowans that their campaign laws are wrong or unethical, I cannot imagine that those candidates will be better off for having said so.

                      I recall the last candidate--one who was leading in the polls in Iowa--who got caught on some Canadian television show denigrating the Iowa caucus procedures, and by the time the votes were in he was in third place.  It was enough to make him scream.

                      •  This isn't about Clinton and Obama. (0+ / 0-)

                        This is about TWO candidates who think that using Republican voter suppression tactics against fellow Democrats in a primary is perfectly OKAY. It is NOT okay.

                        I don't give a shit which candidates are involved. Some of the college students who won't vote now certainly may have intended to vote for Clinton or Dodd. Those votes won't happen now - likely because some damage has already been done.

                        I do believe this will harm Clinton and Dodd in Iowa.

                        Again - that's not the point. The point is that this is unethical. Democrats are supposed to be BETTER than Republicans. And Democrats are supposed to be fucking smarter than giving Republicans voter suppression excuses to use for the general election.

                        Voter rights are paramount here. That is all that matters. Any attempt to confuse voters about their rights to vote is suppression and needs to be stopped. Questioning the legality of potential votes - or challenging a law isn't illegal - but in this case, it certainly isn't ethical either.

              •  Some People Would Rather Be Martyrs... (2+ / 0-)

                ...than be effective.  

                That, too, is politics.  

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:21:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Politics (0+ / 0-)

    pol·i·tics      /ˈpɒlɪtɪks/ Pronunciation Key  Spelled Pronunciation[pol-i-tiks] Pronunciation Key

    –noun (used with a singular or plural verb)

    1. the science or art of political government.
    1. the practice or profession of conducting political affairs.
    1. political affairs: The advocated reforms have become embroiled in politics.
    1. political methods or maneuvers: We could not approve of his politics in winning passage of the bill.
    1. political principles or opinions: We avoided discussion of religion and politics. His politics are his own affair.
    1. use of intrigue or strategy in obtaining any position of power or control, as in business, university, etc.
    1. (initial capital letter, italics) a treatise (4th century b.c.) by Aristotle, dealing with the structure, organization, and administration of the state, esp. the city-state as known in ancient Greece.

    —Idiom
    8. play politics.
    a. to engage in political intrigue, take advantage of a political situation or issue, resort to partisan politics, etc.; exploit a political system or political relationships.
    b. to deal with people in an opportunistic, manipulative, or devious way, as for job advancement.

    I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

    by NewHampster on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:17:08 PM PDT

  •  Seriously (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger, TomP

    No candidate has any exclusive hold on the truth or some higher right to the nomination,...

    Haven't you been paying attention ;~)

  •  Well, I think I've been fairly (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    taylormattd, GOTV

    even handed throughout the diaries, and have defended and criticized all three of the frontrunners.  I never got particularly upset or into any of the primary bullshit, but I disagree, strongly, with your assessment of the student vote diaries.

    I worked my ass off in 2004 registering student voters, finding out if my friends were registered (and if they were, where their polling place was), and making sure they got to the polls on election day.  I also spent the day in a Detroit polling place, after being trained in applicable MI voting law to assure that no voter was challenged illegally (Republicans paid a bunch of students to try to cause a ruckus).

    I am pissed at the bullshit too-clever-by-half-are-they-or-aren't-they-Iowan-enough to-vote-in-the-caucus rhetoric.

    While I agree that every little thing is portrayed as an outrage here, and that some supporters pretend to be doe-eyed innocents who are SHOCKED, SHOCKED when a candidate does something aggressive, or a little sneaky, or a little underhanded, I don't think that the anger over the student voters falls into that category.  Some are undoubtedly using it as a hammer to bash Clinton and Dodd with, but I think you need to leave room for genuine anger and hurt there as well.

    Also, it's Barack.

    Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

    by Sinister Rae on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:19:55 PM PDT

    •  Difference (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GOTV

      What you were working to prevent was challenging voters at a polling site.  What Clinton is doing--stupidly, imo--is trying to make it sound like Obama's strategy is illegitimate.  The Clinton campaign is doing it a full month before the vote, so it's not like people will be confused by this and not vote.  I also fully expect it to backfire on Clinton.

      I think the key is the word you used, "rhetoric."  It is rhetoric, and it's something that people need to slap the Clinton campaign over.  But I haven't seen anything--and if I've simply missed it, point it out to me, because I think you know I've been with you slapping around people from all three camps--that appears to come close to challenging voters, or registrations or the like.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:28:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm aware of the differences (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, Elise

        I was just illustrating why it's important to me, not drawing a direct comparison w/the Clinton camp.

        The Clinton campaign is doing it a full month before the vote, so it's not like people will be confused by this and not vote.  

        I disagree with this.  There's no real way to measure how many people (if any, of course) will hear the "Iowa's caucus are for Iowans" rhetoric, get the message that they can't vote, and won't hear the corrections that they, are, in fact, eligible voters.  On top of that, I'm not sure how knowledgeable the average Iowan SOS clerk is.  I ran into a few in MI who didn't know the rules, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's true in Iowa as well.  If these students get muddled on what their rights are, they won't know enough to stand up for themselves.  I'm glad the Obama camp has time to get the correct information out there, but they can't unring the bell.

        It is rhetoric, and it's something that people need to slap the Clinton campaign over.

        I would never say that Clinton and/or Dodd are out there distributing fliers w/the wrong date, or telling people the can't vote if they have unpaid tickets, but I think making the distinction between the Clinton/Dodd rhetoric and those other voter suppression tactics (which are purely about distributing misleading and/or incorrect information) is more of scale than of type.  I do think the rhetoric is different then directly challenging voters, however.  

        Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

        by Sinister Rae on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:44:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Back to the Diary (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          GOTV

          I don't think I've ever been involved in a major election--including primaries, like the 2004 MI Democratic caucus--where there wasn't some of this bullshit.  Campaigns frequently try that bullshit.  Is it "right" to do it?  No, but this diary isn't arguing that it's "right," it's arguing that this shit happens all the time, and to behave as if it's something unprecedented is naive or disingenuous, and to run around for days and days pretending that it is unprecedented is hard to accept.  

          Besides, it's just one example, and it's hard to argue anything else by any of the campaigns is as crappy from an ethics standpoint.  And what this diary is reacting to predates this Clinton/Dodd crap by about six months or so.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:52:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ye-up. (0+ / 0-)

            When is an endorsement no an endorsement?  Heh.

          •  I don't disagree w/that. (0+ / 0-)

            With these types of diaries I think some people hear "so you shouldn't care" when what was really written was "there's nothing new under the sun."

            I really should be prepping for my defense, however, so have a good night!

            Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

            by Sinister Rae on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:09:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Happens all the time - that doesn't make it okay. (0+ / 0-)

            And that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it every time.  

            Every time we sit back and allow it to happen and say, "oh well, this is just politics" - we enable it further.

            How do Republicans get away with so much? Because they have convinced everyone to respond by saying, "Oh, that's just politics, it happens all the time!"

            This is why people don't participate in the process. It's also why people believe so easily that "Both parties do it!" or "All politicians are crooks!"

            I don't believe those things and I think any event that helps to further those messages is a detriment to US more than it's a detriment to Republicans. Republicans will come out and vote for whoever they're told to vote for. Democrats are the ones who want to feel energized...and "Democrats do it to" doesn't energize anyone.

            •  Well, I Was OBVIOUSLY... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Runs With Scissors

              ...implying it's OK, and that it shouldn't be fought.  Thanks for catching that.  You got me!

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by DHinMI on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:24:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't see you saying that we should fight it. (0+ / 0-)

                I don't see you CORRECTING the information. I don't see you doing anything actually. I haven't seen anyone on the FP even mention the story. If a Republican had said this crap you'd have been all over it. If Joe Klein had said it you'd have been all over it. But since Dodd and Clinton did it, it's apparently something that can just be ignored?

                Remember Biden's comment from the debate - "Don't tell me what you care about, show me your budget and I'll SHOW you what you care about."?

                This is similar.

                The fact that the FP has been silent on this story shows me that you guys either don't care - or you prioritize something ELSE over this. Whichever one it is - I don't care - but don't tell me that you think Clinton and Dodd were wrong when you've been virtually silent on the matter- other than to say, "it's just politics".

    •  I did leave that room (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sinister Rae

      I agree that commenting upon Clinton's position on the issue is fair.  I commented upon it myself, but that was four days ago.  Today, again, a rec'd diary with over 500 comments on it and absolutely nothing new took up how many? total hours of peoples' time so they can again portrey their 4-day old shock.

      How horribly wasteful.

      By the way:

      I also spent the day in a Detroit polling place, after being trained in applicable MI voting law to assure that no voter was challenged illegally (Republicans paid a bunch of students to try to cause a ruckus).

      So did I; in Detroit (and Southfield).  Thanks for helping us out.

      •  asdf (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, GOTV

        Today, again, a rec'd diary with over 500 comments on it and absolutely nothing new took up how many? total hours of peoples' time so they can again portrey their 4-day old shock.

        I don't think it's shock, so much as anger.  Like I said, I'm still pissed about it but I'm not shocked.  I can understand how some people aren't as angry, or who feel like they've said their piece and can move on, but I also understand (because I find it so personally offensive) why people still want to talk about it.  

        So did I; in Detroit (and Southfield).  Thanks for helping us out.

        I hope to do it again in 2008 (couldn't get the time off for '06, and there was less demand anyway).

        Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

        by Sinister Rae on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:05:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It is true that (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GOTV, Coldblue Steele, bubbanomics

    "Diogenes did not leave his lamp on John Edwards' door step the night before he announced his candidacy."

    But Edwards fought the corporate powers (with our help) and wrested that lamp from Diogenes for the people.

    And don't you forget it!  :-)

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:23:42 PM PDT

  •  Good advice (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GOTV, hopscotch1997

    It's difficult though: we're all humans with emotions.

  •  The other folks' outrage is all feigned. (4+ / 0-)

    Mine, however, is real.

    Great diary, GOTV.

  •  short version: "politics happens." (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GOTV

    Anyone who advocates, supports, defends, rationalizes, or excuses torture has pus for brains and a case of scurvy for a conscience. - James Wolcott

    by rasbobbo on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 05:51:42 PM PDT

  •  You know, GOTV, that rationality has a (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, hopscotch1997

    pro-Clinton bias.

    Just sayin'.

  •  Hey, this is a marketplace of ideas (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GOTV

    Some diaries find themselves in the equivalent of dollar stores.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:10:33 PM PDT

  •  I may not be able to vote FOR the nominee (0+ / 0-)

    but I'll definitely be able to hold my nose and cast a vote AGAINST the Republican't.

    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:18:53 PM PDT

  •  You've made excellent points here. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Runs With Scissors

    And that some may choose to ignore or dispute is merely more proof that this site has devolved into two distinct camps:  the politically astute and the politically naive.  

    Yeah, I know that sounds a bit harsh, but there it is.  

    And while you have the tact to refrain from saying this, I do not.  This site is increasingly populated by what campaign vets would commonly call unwanted voters and they are strident and prolific.  

    So, while I applaud your efforts to recalibrate the right-hand side of this front page, I believe that little longstanding relief is possible.  Some of these people would willingly eat their own and then pat themselves on the back for it.

    I prefer this brand of Socratic inquiry, actually: WTF is wrong with you?

    by lightiris on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:27:37 PM PDT

  •  Diary steps on its own toes. (0+ / 0-)

    If "it's politics" means that a certain amount of bad behavior by candidates is expected or tolerated, then scolding diarists is a waste, for it too is politics.

    If "it's politics" means that it's too important to allow partisanship to interfere, than it's also too important to allow bad behavior to pass without voiciferous condemnation.

    And for god's sake, not another person declaring that a topic relationg to the primary campaign has been done to death.  You know what's repeated ad nauseum?  Complaints about repetition.  Give THAT a fucking rest.  If the primary election season is a bore you before it even begins, go read a book.  I suggest "Last Town on Earth".

    Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

    by Inland on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:41:03 PM PDT

  •  Good diary, GOTV (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lightiris, GOTV, Runs With Scissors

    It'll fall on deaf ears, but good diary.

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by BarbinMD on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:54:23 PM PDT

  •  I love you GOTV (0+ / 0-)

    but to be frank, I getting sick of being told I should never be offended because "it's just politics", or that when I feel outrage it is somehow selective. Perhaps that true of some people, but it's not for me. I also fail to comprehend how I am exhibiting some kind of unacceptable "ideological purity" simply because I find it shocking that any democrat would label Iowa student participation in caucuses "fraud."

    Your diary speaks of decisions by the campaigns that are "just politics", and that candidates who engage in such politics run the risk of been seen in a poor light. This is true, but it misses the point around here. A candidate who engages is quasi-dishonest rhetoric (for example, pretending that Obama's outreach to Iowa college students is voter fraud) should be called on the dishonest rhetoric. Instead, what happens is the candidates reflexive supporters incorporate it as an article of faith, writing diaries that essentially accuse Obama of committing felonies. Any reason in particular I should say nothing about that?

    The thing I've grown most tired of is the use of false equivalence. "Sure the reflexive Clinton supporters are hacks for accusing Obama of 'theft', but people wrote nasty comments in response, so let's throw our hands up - 'a pox on all of your houses'!"

    John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

    by taylormattd on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 11:41:36 AM PDT

    •  Matt, I love you, too, and (0+ / 0-)

      I never said anything was just politics.  I said it was politics, and there's a difference.  Had I tried to pass these tactics off as something distasteful but legitimate, I could see the point of what you are saying, but that's not what I said.  Rather, what I was arguing for was a little thicker skin on everyone's part that would buffer us from having to exist on all outrage/all the time as we display our unabashed fury at certain tactics for days on end.

      The recommended diary that prompted mine was the third diary in as many days by the same author, employing the same rhetoric, and containing days-old links, and was put up for the apparent purpose of continuing an onslaught of bellicose and vulgar comments directed at a Democratic candidate.  

      Outrage sells here, and while I did indicate that criticism of Clinton in the case of the Iowa student issue is clearly fair and warranted, what bothered me was the fact that such criticism is so constant and vociferous.  Thus, my plea was simply to steel ourselves to the fact that in political campaigns a certain amount of aggressive tactics are going to employed and that we would be far better off by recognizing that and countering it, rather than complaining about it for days on end.

      Voter suppression is a fact of electoral politics, and no party has any corner on the market of that practice or of being the target of it.  

      Maybe it's a generational thing; I don't know.  Maybe as I've seen presidential politics going back to '72, I'm more desensitized to this sort of thing.  Maybe I'm just a cynic.  One thing's for certain, though, when I do see this, my first thought runs to how to combat it, not how angry it makes me.  To me, as I said, it's politics.

      So, again, I never said we should not say anything; it was my argument that more than enough had been said, and that it was time we acted like we've been through a campaign before.

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