Daily Kos

Paul Krugman Is Completely Wrong

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:52:10 AM PDT

Bet you never thought you'd see those words headlining a diary at Daily Kos, did you? Since Bush's election, Paul Krugman has been one of our best allies and spokespersons opposing the economic and political recklessness of this administration. He spoke up for our causes when nobody else would, and his books, from The Great Unraveling to The Conscience of a Liberal have been hailed as defining statements of our movement.

Which makes today's column all the more stunning. It's as if we got the anti-Krugman, the bizarro Krugman - one who is advancing a neoliberal economic agenda, trying to undermine progressive causes by swiftboating us as using "right wing frames." Those are strong accusations to level at someone most folks here would see as a hero, but they're also accurate. In fact, there is nothing bizarro about this - Krugman has a long history of supporting neoliberal policies, such as free trade. His column on mandated insurance is an example of this.

The basic problem is that he is framing the odious, craptacular "individual mandate" as the only way we can solve our health care crisis - and that to criticize it is to engage in right-wing attacks. In doing this, Krugman writes all of us who support single-payer out of the picture and willfully ignores the multiple, demonstrated problems with mandates.

He begins:

Imagine this: It’s the summer of 2009, and President Barack Obama is about to unveil his plan for universal health care. But his health policy experts have done the math, and they’ve concluded that the plan really needs to include a requirement that everyone have health insurance — a so-called mandate.

Right off the bat, the tone is set - if we "do the math" we'll come to only one conclusion - that mandates are necessary. There Is No Alternative.

(Implied here is an attack on Obama. This isn't his first use of a column to attack Obama. Personally I'm not interested in defending Obama; his health care plan sucks too, and I'm not backing him or anyone else for president at this time.)

But Krugman twists the knife:

Without a mandate, they find, the plan will fall far short of universal coverage. Worse yet, without a mandate health insurance will be much more expensive than it should be for those who do choose to buy it.

His framing is solidifying at this point. Only a mandate can provide universal coverage, he says, and only a mandate can provide affordability. Later on I will explain why this core assumption is totally incorrect - that mandates cannot and will not provide both universality AND affordability. It can only be one or the other.

But Mr. Obama knows that if he tries to include a mandate in the plan, he’ll face a barrage of misleading attacks from conservatives who oppose universal health care in any form. And he’ll have trouble responding — because he made the very same misleading attacks on Hillary Clinton and John Edwards during the race for the Democratic nomination.

And here is where he writes all of us at Daily Kos out of the picture. In the last year there have been a number of excellent diaries from well-respected Kossacks pointing out why individual mandates are flawed. There's bonddad's "Why Market-Based Health Insurance Doesn't Work" (he's written many other diaries this year repeating this point in differents ways). This week nyceve - perhaps the best blogger in the country writing on health care - offered two diaries explaining the flaws of the mandated health insurance approach, yesterday's This better not be what they mean by healthcare reform and Wednesday's Are we being set up for junk healthcare reform - reform in name only?

The point these writers have made is that health insurers as a matter of basic business practice must deny care and claims to maintain profitability - they have to take in more money than they pay out. (bonddad) They also point out that this means health insurers routinely deny care - nyceve has noted her wait time for an MRI, and in Wednesday's diary explained the new trend of doctors refusing to accept health insurance at all for fear of no reimbursement. We also are aware of Markos and Elisa's problems with their health insurance - Markos had to wait weeks to get a necessary CT scan; his wife was told that BCBS wouldn't pay for her epidural.

What all of this demonstrates is that health insurance is NOT health care. Health insurance is no guarantee of health care. Health insurance is nothing more than you paying some company. That's it. Whether you actually get health care is another matter entirely.

Krugman is ignoring this. He is suggesting that our health care crisis can be solved by forcing people to buy insurance. Nowhere does he address bonddad's point that insurers deny care as a basic business model. Nowhere does he address nyceve's point (and Michael Moore's point, in SiCKO)  that the real issue in America is that insurance is failing to meet our health care needs. His failure to discuss this, and his desire to frame these points of view right out of the conversation, is deeply troubling and should cause us to question Krugman's sense on this topic.

But lately Mr. Obama has been stressing his differences with his rivals by attacking their plans from the right — which means that he has been giving credence to false talking points that will be used against any Democratic health care plan a couple of years from now.

What Krugman is saying here is that not only is Obama's attack an "attack from the right" but that anyone who uses Obama's terms is ALSO attacking from the right. Because he acknowledges no valid criticisms of mandates from the left, the implication of the column is that in fact, ANY attack on mandates is an attack from the right.

Yeah, it's stunning, isn't it? But here we are. Paul Krugman, after all, is an economist who has previously supported free trade agreements and in the '90s was a defender of much of the neoliberal model. So it really should not come as such a shock. However you react to it, the fact that Krugman is resorting to claiming we're right-wingers is a sign that perhaps he hasn't always been on our side - or that his love of health care mandates is causing him to short a few circuits.

First is the claim that a mandate is unenforceable. Mr. Obama’s advisers have seized on the widely cited statistic that 15 percent of drivers are uninsured, even though insurance is legally required.

But this statistic is known to be seriously overstated — and some states have managed to get the number of uninsured drivers down to as little as 2 percent. Besides, while the enforcement of car insurance mandates isn’t perfect, it does greatly increase the number of insured drivers.

Here in California the estimates run from 25% to as high as 45% depending on the location.

Further, car insurance and health insurance are completely different. I've been a licensed driver for 12 years and have been insured that entire time. In those 12 years I have only ONCE ever had to make a car insurance claim, when some idiot ran a red light and hit me in the middle of an intersection (I was OK).

With health insurance, however, I'd use it at least once every six months, and many Americans would use their insurance once a MONTH - as opposed to once in 12 years for auto insurance. That's a totally different ballgame.

Anyway, why talk about car insurance rather than looking at direct evidence on how health care mandates perform? Other countries — notably Switzerland and the Netherlands — already have such mandates. And guess what? They work.

Krugman should know better. Switzerland and the Netherlands are completely different cases. First, neither have for-profit insurers. Second, there is much less income inequality and a higher average income in both countries, which routinely top global rankings for standard of living. This means that citizens in these countries have more disposable wealth which which they can buy insurance. Third, their health insurance markets are VERY strongly regulated, much more strongly than here in the US, and much more strongly than in any of the individual mandate plans being offered.

Krugman is well aware of the fundamental problems of rising inequality in America and the role of corporations in promoting that. He is taking a flight from reality when he says that the Swiss and Dutch examples are relevant to America in the '00s.

The second false claim is that people won’t be able to afford the insurance they’re required to have — a claim usually supported with data about how expensive insurance is. But all the Democratic plans include subsidies to lower-income families to help them pay for insurance, plus a promise to increase the subsidies if they prove insufficient.

There are so many problems with this that I literally do not know where to begin. First, he is dismissing the multiple concerns about the cost of health insurance with little more than a wave of the hand. Second, he zeroes in on "lower-income families" - but what about middle income families?? The very families that Krugman has spent 7 years explaining how they're facing crisis? By Krugman's own implicit admission here, mandates do nothing to help them afford what could be a crushing financial blow.

Further, he should know better than a "promise to increase the subsidies" is no substitute for actual provision and detailed planning for this. Such promises are pie-in-the-sky no matter who is offering them.

Finally, there is an economic argument against these subsidies - they're wasteful and ineffecient. Wouldn't those subsidies be better spent by government paying for low-income folks' health care itself, instead of giving subsidies to health insurers in the hopes that those insurers will, against all evidence, actually spend it on patient care?

By the way, the limitations of the Massachusetts plan to cover all the state’s uninsured — which is actually doing much better than most reports suggest — come not from the difficulty of enforcing mandates, but from the fact that the state hasn’t yet allocated enough money for subsidies.

Krugman is flat wrong on this and I have to believe it is a willful error. Currently 230,000 Massachusetts residents remain uninsured even though the mandate has gone into effect - which is more than half the original number of 400,000 uninsured prior to the mandate. As CBS News explained:

It's a tough sell because one of the cheapest family plans available, unsubsidized, with drug coverage, is $662 a month. When [CBS reporter Wyatt] Andrews talked to contractor Roger Thompson, there was no way.

"I have no choice. It would be like another mortgage payment for my family and I can't afford that," he said.

Krugman dismisses this man's concerns and goes on to claim that the problem is merely a lack of money. Well, why is that? Krugman should know better than anyone - government is being starved of resources by conservative policies. Those policies are undermining the social safety net and contributing to what Krugman himself called "the Great Unraveling."

Further, who is it in MA that hasn't appropriated the money? Democrats. Romney may have signed the bill, but the MA mandates were a Democratic plan. Here in 2007 MA has a Democratic governor and massive Democratic legislative majorities. If these Democrats haven't provided the proper funding, then what is to guarantee that a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress will?

Finally, Mr. Obama is storing up trouble for health reformers by suggesting that there is something nasty about plans that "force every American to buy health care."

Look, the point of a mandate isn’t to dictate how people should live their lives — it’s to prevent some people from gaming the system. Under the Obama plan, healthy people could choose not to buy insurance, then sign up for it if they developed health problems later. This would lead to higher premiums for everyone else. It would reward the irresponsible, while punishing those who did the right thing and bought insurance while they were healthy.

WOW. Wow...just...wow.

Krugman is saying here that we who cannot afford insurance but are "healthy" (I am 28 and uninsured) are "gaming the system." He's calling us cheats! He's engaging in classic conservative rhetoric by ignoring the financial problems causing us to forego insurance and then castigating us for daring to need public assistance when we do get sick. I find this to be a personally offensive statement right there - and if you recall the fact that health insurance is no guarantee of health care, this part of Krugman's column becomes totally indefensible.

But don't just listen to me on this. The Rockridge Institute in October launched Don't Think of a Sick Child: The Logic of the Health Care Debate. In it, the Rockridge Institute argues that the health care debate is a moral debate above all else. If we are to achieve progressive ends - ensuring every Californian has access to health care - we must employ progressive means.

Their analysis turns on an assessment of the "neoliberal" argument that has seduced many Democrats and even some progressives, that the market can be harnessed for progressive health care outcomes. As the Rockridge Institute explains, it simply does not work that way:

Neoliberal thought accepts a conservative version of market principles that guarantees profits to insurance and drug companies. Often, this is done in the name of political pragmatism, as a way to mute expected conservative opposition. This creates an inherent tension between the moral mission of government to provide for the protection - in this case the health security - of all of its people and the profit-maximizing insurance marketplace, which works only by denying care....

Progressives who adopt a neoliberal mode of thought, or align themselves with others who do, could inadvertently undermine progressive values and policy goals, surrendering them in advance - anticipating conservative resistance even before negotiations occur - and before the public has a chance to even consider such values.

What Lakoff and his fellows are explaining is the same phenomenon that Krugman has fallen victim to. Krugman is arguing that neoliberal methods can achieve progressive goals - but in fact, they cannot. And as you argue in favor of neoliberal methods, you start making neoliberal arguments, deeply anti-progressive arguments such as the BS that Krugman spouted about how we who can't afford insurance but who need care are "gaming the system."

Krugman closes his column by bashing further we who raise serious questions about mandates:

My main concern right now is with Mr. Obama’s rhetoric: by echoing the talking points of those who oppose any form of universal health care, he’s making the task of any future president who tries to deliver universal care considerably more difficult.

Of course, that only holds true if you equate universal health care with individual mandates. We're not the ones making universal care more difficult, Krugman - it's folks who pass off an insurance company giveaway as "reform" that are engaging in that act.

I’d add, however, a further concern: the debate over mandates has reinforced the uncomfortable sense among some health reformers that Mr. Obama just isn’t that serious about achieving universal care — that he introduced a plan because he had to, but that every time there’s a hard choice to be made he comes down on the side of doing less.

That closes Krugman's column, and is a warning shot across not just Obama's bow but ours too: that if we oppose mandates, we're shrinking from "hard choices" in favor of "doing less."

I don't support Obama's plan, and I think Obama is a coward for not supporting single-payer care. But I think Krugman is WAY off base with this column. He's trying to shape the argument around health care reform to exclude truly progressive options and frame the discussion so that it's the neoliberal answer - mandates - or nothing at all.

Krugman's column, at times offensive, at other times wrong on the facts, is something we should reject in its entirety. That Paul Krugman is its author suggests that we progressives are best off not relying on Ivy League economists with a history of backing neoliberal policies to argue for our cause, but that we should instead be doing this ourselves.

We need to reinforce our efforts to achieve single-payer care, and we need to stand up to Krugman's baiting attacks, not on behalf of Obama but on behalf of all Americans who understand that health care is a RIGHT, not a market privilege.  

Tags: Paul Krugman, Barack Obama, health care, individual mandates, 2008 elections, president, primaries, Democrats (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 294 comments

  •  Just because Krugman wrote it (41+ / 0-)

    Doesn't mean it has to make any sense. Individual mandates are a terrible, terrible idea. We should resist them as strongly as we can.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:52:31 AM PDT

    •  I agree. Worst of both worlds. (10+ / 0-)

      Raises the specter of the overintrusive nanny-state to rile up opposition, without providing universal and affordable care for everyone.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:00:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you believe that Paul Krugman is a hack? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      debcoop, jre2k8

      Your recommend here suggests that you do.

      So which is it? Is he one of our best allies and spokespersons opposing the economic and political recklessness of this administration, or is he a hack?

    •  Weird diary (6+ / 0-)

      A mandate--according to everyone who studies this--is the only way to get universal, or near universal, coverage. The question is, is it a government or individual mandate? Me, I prefer a government mandate, but because I favor universal health care, an individual mandate is the next best thing.

      And of course, you can criticize mandates from the left, that's basically what Al Gore did to Bill Bradley in 2000, but Obama's not attacking them from the left. He's not using anti-big brother arguments or saying they would help insurance companies or arguing that they don't go far enough. He's not doing so in part because his own plan has a mandate for children and because his own plan is less ambitious.

      Instead, Obama is making bogus analogies to car insurance and claiming that his plan would cover as many people as plans with mandates.  

      Are there political problems with plans that include mandates? Perhaps, but that's a different question.

      •  The Obamakinder are in a bind. He's done somethin (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        debcoop, phenry, denise b, Gabriele Droz

        something dumb and he's been called on it by Krug. So now the Obamakinder have to rush around trying to change the subject or calling Krug a moron.

      •  Individual mandates and single-payer (5+ / 0-)

        Are totally different things. Completely different solutions to the problem. Go back and click the Rockridge Institute link in the diary for a fuller explanation of it.

        Krugman is writing the left attack on mandates out of the picture. He is framing ANY criticism as right-wing criticism.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Forget about car insurance... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, wu ming, brentmack, Mannabass

        ...just look at the Mass plan and see if it's working.

        Does it cover everybody? No, it doesn't appear to.

        And it's not just Obama who says this, Robert Reich -- and plenty of others -- say he thinks Obama's plan could plausibly cover more than Hillary's.

        It's simply not true "everyone who studies this" thinks a mandate is a good idea -- especially in the initial roll-out of a plan.

      •  My take on Krugman is completely different... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        phenry, david mizner

        ... from eugene's.  Here's Krugman:

        O.K., before I go any further, let’s be clear: there is a huge divide between Republicans and Democrats on health care, and the Obama plan — although weaker than the Edwards or Clinton plans — is very much on the Democratic side of that divide.

        But lately Mr. Obama has been stressing his differences with his rivals by attacking their plans from the right — which means ... giving credence to false talking points that will be used against any Democratic health care plan a couple of years from now.

        So my take on Krugman's column is:

        1.  Obama's plan is in the democratic party mainstream.
        1.  Obama is attacking democratic plans from the right.
        1.  Obama might be President in 2009.
        1.  Obama is making his own future job harder.

        I read item number 3 above as very important sub-context.  Krugman is taking the possibility of an Obama presidency seriously.  He is offering the future President Obama advice that will come in handy when he has to tackle the health care cost crisis.

        All things considered, if I were an Obama partisan, I would find much to be happy with in Krugman's column.

        Cheers.

        "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

        by New Deal democrat on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:23:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just don't see it that way (6+ / 0-)

          Maybe it's because I'm not an Obama supporter, but what I read Krugman as saying here is that individual mandates are the only possible solution and that to attack them is to engage in de facto right-wing arguments. It's the way Krugman defends a mandate that upsets me.

          Following your comment, this is my take on Krugman's diary:

          1. Krugman is a major figure in shaping Democratic thinking on economic issues.
          1. Krugman is making an attack on critics of the mandate idea using arguments and logic that are questionable at best.
          1. A Democratic president might propose a mandate in 2009.
          1. Krugman is making it very difficult for us to oppose a mandate, either now or when it is brought before Congress in 2009.

          That's my concern.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:28:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  eugene (4+ / 0-)

            Thanks for your in depth analysis; even though I had to swallow the bitter pill "Obama is a coward".  Please repost this diary after the primary season, so we can all engage in a more reasoned discussion.

            •  Heh (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              leonard145b, Mannabass

              I will keep writing about this, definitely. And if it makes you feel any better I think HRC and Edwards are cowards too for not proposing single-payer.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:38:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thankyouthankyouthankyou... (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                eugene, leonard145b, Virginia mom

                I like Paul Krugman, doesn't mean he's always right or anything.  I love your indepth look at this issue and you have given me food for thought.
                Obviously, all the healthcare proposals on the table suck.  There should be no profit incentive with regards to healthcare, none.  
                How to get there, that is the question.
                A study of the hysteria that preceded single payer systems in other countries would make for a fascinating diary.  I dare you to write it.

                Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

                by Mannabass on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:27:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What really stands out (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  eugene, Mannabass

                  to me is this problem-What if you give birth to a child with health issues? Are  you"irresponsible" not have foreseen this and bought insurance to cover care? Will insurers be able to deny coverage to newborns based on health? No matter what anyone says, if we have a for-profit system, lots of people won't get care.

                  •  I think.. (0+ / 0-)

                    Those of us who don't work for the private insurance industry would like to see single payer.  The question is, how do we get there?  I hope we figure it out, for all our sakes...

                    Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

                    by Mannabass on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:42:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  That would be a good diary. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Mannabass

                  In Saskatchewan in 1962, when the province went over to a single-payer system, doctors went on strike for nearly 3 weeks in an effort to stop it. They failed. Now most Sask docs love the system.

                  I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                  Neither is California High Speed Rail

                  by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:46:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  The fact that their plans are not sinlgle payer (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                campskunk

                does not validate you saying, with no support from any health economist, that mandates don't work.

                The Edwards, Clinton, and Obama plans all have a public component choice. The idea is that the public plan will be better in a number of ways, like cost and lack of bureaucratic hassles, that it will grow and the private plans will shrink. That is good because it put pressure on the system to hopefully go more toward single payer.  Mandates and universality are big part of making that work.  If you're not enrolled when you show up broken of bone, you can get enrolled in the public option....because it should be the least expensive.

                If you don't have everyone mandated to be part of the system....then the pressure toward the public option is a lot less....making it much less likely to take mor market share.

                I think we all want that public component to grow, and Obama's and your argument undercuts that.

      •  Mandates don't equal universal coverage (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, willyr

        I appreciate some of the arguments in favor of mandates although I am extremely concerned about the costs.  We can afford $200 per month.  We could squeeze out $300 per month.  If it will cost over $600, as in Massachusetts, I don't know where we will get the money.  It's just not there.  We don't have any employer assistance either.  And is this 100% coverage?  If we have to pay $300 per month and then come up with 20% of the cost, that's not just ridiculous, it's a failure.

        Now, in Colorado we currently have a panel looking at health care options.  They do not ever claim universal coverage through mandates.  They do assert that more people will be insured, though.  The only option they are studying, out of five options, that provides universal coverage and access is single-payer.  It is rather stunning when you look at the charts to see that big, ol' zero staring back up for uninsured numbers.

        The thing I object to is people claiming mandates will create universal coverage.  It doesn't.  And by claiming "near universal coverage" I find that a misdirection.  It's like partly pregnant.  We either have it or we don't.

    •  He does somewhat make sense (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Geekesque, lams712, Downpuppy, brentmack

      but within a narrow window which favors, as you say, an unacceptable status quo (health insurance as opposed to health care). It's indeed stunning that he accepts that narrowing of the terms of the debate as a starting point.

      But his point about free-riders (those that are healthy and choose not to buy insurance) is absolutely correct: if you are within an insurance system, then you do need those that would be profitable to ensure to be in the system, not out, because otherwise, only the unprofitable ones are left, and that forces to cut down costs even more.

      But I agree with your overall point.

      •  But why are they "free riders"? (8+ / 0-)

        That implies a desire to cheat the system. I'm young, healthy, and uninsured, but that's because I can't afford insurance even if I wanted it.

        He's taking an outcome of a neoliberal economy (young people who can't afford insurance) and framing it as a reckless choice. That's what I object to.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:15:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can't be serious. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          debcoop, badger, Jerome a Paris, denise b

          Please, I beg you, make an effort to understand this simple point:

          Krugman is talking about young, healthy people who, under Obama's plan, would be able to afford to buy health insurance, but would choose not to.

          Do you understand this? It's really not complicated at all.

          •  Such people don't exist. (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Halcyon, brentmack, Mannabass, bhagamu

            Or if they do, they exist in such small numbers that to refer to them is a straw man.

            In the diary I cited a CBS News report that shows 230,000 Massachusetts residents remain uninsured even under their mandate system. Of that 230,000, it is estimated that 170,000 are young - under age 30. One of them was the contractor I quoted. He cannot afford the mandate.

            To make health insurance affordable you have to cut benefits. If you want health insurance that'll actually provide a lot of care, the cost will go up. MA has found that even the minimum insurance is too costly. They had to rebid the plans several times and still it didn't provide affordability. That contractor has to choose between his mortgage and the mandate. That's not a sign of a successful plan.

            Which is why Krugman's column is flawed. He passes right over this issue and instead makes a theoretical argument. He needed to address the factual argument first. He's implying that anyone who finds the mandate unaffordable isn't a victim of a bad plan but themselves victimizing society by cheating the system.

            I also don't understand why you're making this a personal attack. I've long respected your writing, even way back when you were just putting up photos of freeways on a website (those were great shots, too). I'm trying to point out the logical flaws of Krugman's argument, and I'd prefer a discussion on those merits.

            I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
            Neither is California High Speed Rail

            by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:35:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  People do tend to be risk-averse (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              eugene, Mannabass

              Even young people. So you make a good point. Yes, I'm sure there are people out there who say "well, I don't want to pay the extra money every month, I'm healthy." But there's probably more who say that they'd rather be insured.

              •  The difference being (0+ / 0-)

                Under the current mess, if you're not insured, & get sick, you're screwed.

                Under a universal non-mandated system, you don't have to buy in until you think you need it.

                •  And that's very, very bad. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  debcoop

                  Health insurance only works if the risk pool is spread among the healthy and the unhealthy. Some people who pay into the system don't use it, which makes it affordable for the people who do have need to use it. If you're among the healthy this year, don't whine--you may not be so lucky next year.

                  If healthy people blow off the system until they need it, that makes insurance more expensive for everyone else. Those are the free riders Krugman is talking about.

              •  Yes there are such people (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                debcoop

                and I've know quite a few of them. I couldn't believe how many contract programmers I met at work who had no insurance, even people making very good money who had houses and assets that they should have been worried about protecting. People aren't always rational or foresighted, and they can be amazingly over-optimistic.

                "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

                by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:37:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  230,000 people = "don't exist"? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              debcoop, badger

              230,000 is more than the entire population of Massachusetts' second largest city, Worcester, plus the entire undergrad and postgrad student bodies of Harvard, MIT, and Boston College combined. That's really not what I would call a small number.  How much bigger would the number be if Massachusetts adopted Obama's "buy it if you want to" plan?

              And I'll say again what I said before: Any plan under which an individual cannot afford insurance and is not supplied with it is not a universal health care plan. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise.

              I also don't understand why you're making this a personal attack. I've long respected your writing, even way back when you were just putting up photos of freeways on a website (those were great shots, too). I'm trying to point out the logical flaws of Krugman's argument, and I'd prefer a discussion on those merits.

              As long as you're willing to put your stamp of approval on a post calling Paul Krugman a hack, I'm afraid a discussion on the merits of this issue is not possible. That's really beneath you, and if you think about it for a moment I believe you'll agree.

              •  They're not free riders! (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Mannabass

                What more do I have to say to explain that to you? They're going to be left out of ANY individual mandate, whether it's Obama's or Hillary's or Edwards'. What Krugman wants to do is paint them as cheaters, not victims. He is not showing how they actually will have their needs met affordably - all he offers are "promises" which I do not believe should be considered sufficient.

                I too agree that any plan that doesn't provide universal, affordable access to health care is not universal health care. Obama's plan is not universal. But neither are Hillary's and Edwards' - they rely on mandates which as MA has shown WILL NOT WORK.

                If you want to use one single rating I gave to undermine my argument, you're not debating in good faith.

                I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                Neither is California High Speed Rail

                by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:05:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not correct (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  debcoop

                  In fact, Edwards' plan is universal.

                  Edwards' truly universal health care plan will ensure that every American has health insurance. He will require proof of insurance when income taxes are paid and when health care is provided. Families without insurance will be enrolled in Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP or another targeted plan or be assigned a plan within new Health Care Markets.

                  Families who lose coverage will be expected to enroll in another plan or be assigned one. For the few people who refuse to pay, the government will help collect back premiums with interest and collection costs by using tools like the ones it uses for student loans and taxes, including collection agencies and wage garnishment.

                  Under this plan, the only way to "opt out" of the individual mandate is to go off the grid entirely, à la the Unabomber. If you want to say that there are huge, huge problems with this plan... fine. I agree that there are huge, huge problems with this plan. But the fact is that it is a universal health plan at its heart and Obama's is not.

                  •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm not here to defend Obama and attack Edwards. My issue is with individual mandates themselves.

                    If you think Edwards' plan won't leave millions uninsured, you're not paying attention to the reality of mandated insurance. Again, I will point you to the 230,000 - over 50% of the pre-2007 number - who remain uninsured despite MA's mandate, which includes tax penalties for not being insured. Here in CA the state estimated several years ago that 25% of drivers were uninsured, despite the mandate to have car insurance and despite stiff penalties for not having it.

                    Obama's plan is not universal. Edwards' isn't either - the difference is Edwards claims his plan is universal when it is, in fact, far from it. Same goes for Hillary.

                    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                    Neither is California High Speed Rail

                    by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:50:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Cut benefits... why? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              debcoop, phenry

              Affordability rests in cutting out the middle men (insurance companies) and providing preventative care.  Every ER visit by an unisured person who cannot pay is covered by those who can pay.  The more people we can get in the system the cheaper it should end up being to the individual.  The cheaper it is for the individual, the more people will opt in... not all spirals are downward.

          •  But they would choose not to (0+ / 0-)

            under the Clinton/Edwards plan as well, although then they would be breaking the law in doing so.

            Unless you are going to do a single payer, automatic enrollment system not everyone will be covered.  Period.

            "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

            by bawbie on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:20:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Edwards' plan features automatic enrollment (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              debcoop

              It is not a single payer plan (although I wish it was, obviously), but it does automatically enroll people who do not choose a plan.

              •  Only when people show up sick at the hospital (0+ / 0-)

                and then he uses the IRS to enforce it.

                Which means

                1. that doesn't get healthy people enrolled
                1. it'll never pass because automatic enrollment will be a non-starter (basically single payer)

                "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

                by bawbie on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:46:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Non-Universal Non-Coverage (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  debcoop

                  So basically your arguments are:

                  • Mandates are bad.
                  • Universal coverage is bad, because it necessarily requires mandates in some form, which are bad.
                  • Single payer is bad, because people won't go for it and can't be convinced to go for it.

                  If these are your positions, then I suppose Obama's plan is for you, but why limit yourself? Several of the Republicans are also offering health-care plans that satisfy your criteria; perhaps you will find one or more of those plans attractive as well.

                  •  Bullshit (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    eugene

                    way to assign me positions that I don't hold.

                    I am for single payer, but I don't think it would pass right now.  I consider single payer (with automatic enrollment) to be the only Universal Health Care proposal out there.  Everything else leaves someone out.  

                    I am leary of mandates, mainly because I think a vast majority of the country would balk at them.  I think Obama's plan is the easiest to pass and would get the most results the quickest, which is what needs to happen to get the country ready for single payer.

                    I like many parts of Edwards plan, and if I were picking one (of the three) that would be implemented today, I may pick Edwards'.

                    "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

                    by bawbie on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:17:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Leap in logic there (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    bawbie

                    You make the same error Krugman did at point 2 - assuming that universal care requires mandates.

                    Single-payer is NOT a mandate. Single-payer is where everyone gets health care when they need it, and it is paid for out of a tax system that people must already be a part of. No new mandates are created.

                    I'm sure your next move will be to equate taxes to mandates, but they are very different things. Taxes are progressive (especially the income tax). Further, your ability to receive care in a single-payer tax system is not dependent on whether you've already paid into the system or not; you get care because you're alive, not because you bought a policy.

                    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                    Neither is California High Speed Rail

                    by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:54:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Assertions are not proof (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      phenry, campskunk

                      You merely assert over and over that universal coverage, in a non single payer system, doesn't require mandates.  You have neither evidence, facts nor logic to support your assertion.

                      But I will say that assertion as a form of argument can be cleverly compelling because many people let the incorrect assertion go unchalleged.

                      But there is too much evidence in the opposite direction to allow that to pass muster.

                      •  You misunderstand me (0+ / 0-)

                        I am asserting that universal care is NOT POSSIBLE outside of a single-payer system. If you want universality, single-payer is the only way to go. Everything else will still leave a lot of people outside the system, no matter what proponents claim.

                        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                        Neither is California High Speed Rail

                        by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 02:18:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  single payer covers everyone.. Yes indeed (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              campskunk

              But Obama'a plan is not single player either,

              So you can't use single payer to just criticize Edwards and Clinton....Saying they're not single payer does not make Obama's plan any better.

              And that is the entire premise of Eugene's diary.

        •  If you allowed people to opt-out (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          debcoop

          of Social Security, half the country would. But we need the young to pay for the old, or the system doesn't work. How is a mandate on health insurance different? Even with single-payer I believe everyone is going to have to pay in.

          "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

          by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They are completely different things. (0+ / 0-)

            Taxes for single-payer care don't force the individual to pay the full cost of their health care - instead that cost is distributed amongst the society according to the tax laws, just as universal fire coverage and universal police coverage are. You don't have to pay the fire department before they'll save your house, but you'd have to pay the insurance company before they'll save your life.

            In a mandate, you are forced to pay a lot of money to a company that isn't going to guarantee you care, and you must pay that up front. With single-payer you pay absolutely nothing up front and get health care merely because you are alive, not because you bought a policy. Further, the cost to the average American is much, much less under single-payer because the cost is shared through society via taxes that (ideally) make the rich pay more.

            Insurance is NOT taxation. They are fundamentally different.

            I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
            Neither is California High Speed Rail

            by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:57:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Single payer is better (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              campskunk

              but again that is not an argument  that can be used on how toevaluate the effectiveness of different (non single payer) plans without mandates and those with mandates.

            •  You're not paying the full cost (0+ / 0-)

              if everyone goes into large pools where the risk is spread among everyone and everyone pays the same price.

              I'm all in favor of taxing the rich more, but as of now we don't, so that's another issue. The burden will fall on the middle class, including the lower middle. And it's going to be expensive no matter how we do it. I agree that single payer is the least expensive. But it will cost everyone, and the people who are gambling by doing without now are going to have to pay.

              "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

              by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 04:08:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  But Jerome, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mannabass

        In our for profit system, there are going to be a shitload of bugs to work out prior to adding mandates.  All sorts of negative, unintended consequences could occur.  Basically, we could have citizens who lower middle class being hit with mandatory bills which serve to enrich only the insurance companies.

        Plus adding mandates requires an added level of bureaucracy, which costs money, and usurps $$ needed to reform the system upfront--to make the transition.

        The sad and sorry truth is we are so far behind other industrialized nations on this issue because all it takes is the word "socialism" to derail reform entirely.

      •  please read my comment (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        campskunk, LillithMc

        Krugman adamantly does not favor the staus quo. Krugman is in favor of single payer and he is not a neo liberal.    His take is that there are no single payer plans proposed by any viable candidate (Kucinich)  These are the plans that the politicians think are the right ones ....given the political climate.  so let's examine that.

        This is a 2005 column of his on single payer.
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  Are (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      debcoop

      all the top tier candidates are cowards?

      Obama is a coward for not supporting single-payer care.

      Or just politicians?

    •  Right on, Eugene. (0+ / 0-)

      Excellent diary.

      "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." -- Earl Weaver

      by 2632 on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:51:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      debcoop

      Have you ever gone off in left field on this.

      Nowhere did I hear Krugman say that he favors a market-based system. Nowhere does he try to address market-based v. single payer, or what the ideal program would be.

      He has one topic here: Obama's proposal, and specifically the feature of allowing people to opt out. I completely agree with him that it's not financially feasible unless everyone is in. That doesn't mean that I want a market-based system- I most definitely want single-payer. But the 3 front-running Democrats have all proposed quite similar systems, and that's what he's discussing. Until we see the details, including the cost, I don't think we can say whether it will work or not.

      "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

      by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:26:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How does the Clinton/Edwards plan (0+ / 0-)

        ensure that "everyone is in"?

        They don't.  Clinton won't even discuss how she'll enforce her mandate.

        The only difference between the Obama and Clinton/Edwards plans is that people who chose not to buy the insurance are illegal under Clinton/Edwards.

        "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

        by bawbie on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:30:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How they enforce it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          debcoop

          is a separate issue. His point is that everyone has to be in, and I think that's obviously true.

          He's only got one column of the paper at a time. How much do you expect him to cover in one day?

          "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

          by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:49:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Krugman was a neoliberal in the 90's, not now (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      campskunk, denise b

      Almost everyone on this site would agree that single payer is far preferable to health insurance plans, some profit driven, some not

      To quote you

      He's trying to shape the argument around health care reform to exclude truly progressive options and frame the discussion so that it's the neoliberal answer - mandates - or nothing at all.

      You are just factually wrong. Paul Krugman is in favor of single payer. Paul Krugman is in favor of the same progressive tradition we are all in favor of. You can not discredit today's oped on the basis that he is a neoliberal and so he supports mandates.

      http://www.pnhp.org/...

      A system in which the government provides universal health insurance is often referred to as "single payer," but I like Ted Kennedy’s slogan "Medicare for all." It reminds voters that America already has a highly successful, popular single-payer program, albeit only for the elderly. It shows that we’re talking about government insurance, not government-provided health care. And it makes it clear that like Medicare (but unlike Canada’s system), a U.S. national health insurance system would allow individuals with the means and inclination to buy their own medical care.

      The great advantage of universal, government-provided health insurance is lower costs. Canada’s government-run insurance system has much less bureaucracy and much lower administrative costs than our largely private system. Medicare has much lower administrative costs than private insurance. The reason is that single-payer systems don’t devote large resources to screening out high-risk clients or charging them higher fees. The savings from a single-payer system would probably exceed $200 billion a year, far more than the cost of covering all of those now uninsured.

      Nonetheless, most reform proposals out there - even proposals from liberal groups like the Century Foundation and the Center for American Progress - reject a simple single-payer approach. Instead, they call for some combination of mandates and subsidies to help everyone buy insurance from private insurers.

      Some people, not all of them right-wingers, fear that a single-payer system would hurt innovation. But the main reason these proposals give private insurers a big role is the belief that the insurers must be appeased

      he ends this way

      reformers will do best with a straightforward single-payer plan

      ,

      What he recognizes is the political problem of the power of the health insurance lobby. Nevetheless he ends the article touting the benefit of single payer to any of these other proposals that still involve the health insurance companies.

      The major crux of your argument against his conclusions are based on what you call his neo-liberalism, esp on health care. He's a neo-liberal ergo his criticism must be wrong. This article pretty much demolishes that mischaracterization of yours.

      But NOW HERE IN THIS CAMPAIGN there are 3 major presidential candidates with 3 proposals.  None are single payer. All 3 have made the political judgement that this kind of plan is what can get votes in a Congress.  THAT IS THE POLITICAL REALITY UPON WHICH WE MUST MAKE OUR JUDGEMENTS OF THE PLANS' GOODNESS.

      Two have mandates and subsidies for the individuals (though Edwards does it more through the employer) and caps on the total premium for lower income people. One plan, Obama's plan doesn't have those things.

      All the problems you ascribe to the plans with mandates -----clever denials of care, in network, out of network, preapprovals, caps on payout etc etc
      ......will also happen to the the one plan that does not have a mandate. So your litany of real difficulties  with  non single player plans, that you contend,  disqualify the plans with mandates However THEY ALSO disqualify, the plan without mandates or universal coverage, i.e. Obama's plan.

      So given the three plans Krugman is right in his charges.  Even sad to say that at 28 you are without insurance, which you do by choice....

      Krugman is saying here that we who cannot afford insurance but are "healthy" (I am 28 and uninsured) are "gaming the system." He's calling us cheats

      Well he's right.  Not that you're a cheat...I'm sure you're an honest person...but that universality is the way to make sure that the costs are lower and universality maintains community rating....which means they can't deny anyone coverage. In a non single payer universe, mandates ensure universality....and the 2 plans with it have subsidies for young folks like you or caps ...whichever is applicable.  A plan without mandates, in a non single payer envirenment, undermines its own purpose.

      I wish you all the health in the world.....but if someone without insurance gets hit by a bus or lightning they do get care and it will be enormously expensive thus making everyone else's premium go up. (Once again I agree there should be no for profit plans. Bur the 3 we are comparing are health insurance plans.  It is clear that 2 are better than the other.)

      Indeed as Krugman notes the subsidies are better in the mandate plans than the non mandate plan....Obama's argument that if insurance  is available it will be bought is just not credible by any health care economist. It's like saying if we want to fly to the moon, we just need to wish really hard upon a star.

      I think you have made this very convoluted, selelctive argument

      1. Because you don't want to see yourself as gaming the system. You feel that circumstance demands it and so this choice should not be taken away. You shouldn't be forced. There are endless numbers of progressive health care experts who disagree. though there are lots st NRO who would agree with your sentiments.
      1. a quote from you

      Krugman closes his column by bashing further we who raise serious questions about mandates:

      My main concern right now is with Mr. Obama’s rhetoric: by echoing the talking points of those who oppose any form of universal health care, he’s making the task of any future president who tries to deliver universal care considerably more difficult.

      Number 2 is the WE in your sentence----you and Obama. Krugman has written a very compelling "J'accuse" against Obama's plan. He makes clear the use of right wing frames to defend his plan and the damage it does to progressive policy.  And  he is afraid he sees ( as do I)his inherent reluctance to truly do the progressive, hard thing.

      I think that is really why you wrote this. Your partisanship for your candidate is backing you into bad polcy judgements. Otherwise you might actually have to deal with not only its deficencies, but why it's deficient and the damage the defense of it is doing to the progressive converstion.    

      •  Excellent, Debra (0+ / 0-)

        I don't know why more people aren't recommending this. I think you nailed it.

        "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

        by denise b on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 04:56:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is beyond ridiculous. (0+ / 0-)

        First: NOWHERE, here or elsewhere, have I said I support Obama for president. I take pains to repeat that I remain undecided.

        Second: Are you planning to pay for my health insurance? By all means, do, I'd love it if you did. I lost my coverage July 1, when my previous job ended. I currently work 2 part-time jobs which pay me just enough to cover my share of living expenses, pay down my debt, and save $200 a month. After that, I'm broke. I got a letter from my previous employer outlining COBRA coverage - I could pay $220/mo for insurance.

        I don't have $220/mo. I simply don't. For you to insinuate as you did above that I'm uninsured by choice is insulting. You represent a common failing in this conversation - those who have insurance attempting to speak for those who do not.

        You sit here and make right-wing arguments against me, and that to me discredits you entirely on this topic. If you see young, uninsured people as having "made a choice" then you do not understand health care in this country - at all - in any way - and you should not wade into such a conversation without such knowledge.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:54:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Here's a comprehensive discussion... (11+ / 0-)

    ... on this issue with Barack Obama himself, from a Keene Sentinel editorial board interview...

    Runs about 10 minutes. Very interesting...

  •  Here's an opposing view of mandates from today's (5+ / 0-)

    Concord (NH) Monitor

    Not everyone agrees with Krugman's take on them.

    •  Ehhh (5+ / 0-)

      That editorial has its flaws. Us "young and health folks" aren't "opting out of the system" - we're frozen out by high costs and low wages. BIG difference.

      It's also not a sideshow - here in CA Democratic leaders have now agreed to a mandate plan, but it is being opposed from within the party and by a wide range of unions and other activist groups. It's a VERY real issue.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:04:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep. When I didn't have insurance for 4 years... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, red moon dog, brklyngrl

        ...it wasn't because I was "young and healthy" (even though I was) and thought I didn't need it; it's because it was really damn expensive and I wasn't making enough money to be able to afford it.  I know nobody who can afford health insurance and refuses to get it because they're "young and healthy."  This seems to me like one of those right-wing "welfare queens are having babies because they want them" canards.

        Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

        by mistersite on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 10:57:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I remember Cali well... (0+ / 0-)

        Paid for my entire birth experience with both my children.  The frustrating part was my friends who made barely more than I did and weren't eligible for Medical.  Which is why I support single payer.  However, you do agree that a viable public option should be in place as a step to single payer before the issue of single payer is tackled?

        Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

        by Mannabass on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The key is "viable" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Mannabass

          I don't see how a public option can be viable without it being single-payer. I mean, I support expanding Medi-Cal and SCHIP and such, but not if it's tied to an individual mandate. The public option will not be able to survive in a market competition environment, not without massive subsidies.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:59:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Surely... (0+ / 0-)

            A not for profit model would eat a for profit model in market competition.  Who wouldn't switch from a model based on denying claims to one like Medi-Cal?

            Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

            by Mannabass on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 02:12:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Markets don't work for us (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Mannabass

              I explained this to lorelynn below.

              In a mandate situation private insurers can't deny people a policy because they're sick. They do that now to maintain profitability. So they're going to have to find another method to keep costs down - which will almost assuredly involve denying claims and care to the sick, in an effort to make the sick drop the policy and take up coverage with the public insurer. This has the side benefit of allowing private insurers to offer cheap policies (while hiding the fact that these policies won't carry much coverage).

              The sick then flock to the public option. The cost of caring for the sick soars and the public option has to recover that somehow. Either they raise premiums, meaning the public option is going to suffer in market competition, or they have to seek a tax bailout, which will cause a political problem and discredit the effectiveness of the public option.

              No, this isn't going to work - and it's not necessary.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 02:23:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Krugman answered everyone of these points. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      denise b, lizpolaris

      Yo