Daily Kos

Paul Krugman is For Single-Payer Healthcare

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:11:54 PM PDT

I've seen a couple of diaries recently, including this one today, taking Krugman to task for his support of mandates in the Democratic healthcare plans (in clear opposition, therefore, to Obama's plan). He's been called a hack, a neo-liberal who's looking out for the interests of for-profit health insurance over the interests of consumers, and has been smeared in any number of ways.

It's been asked why he supports mandates instead of single-payer healthcaere.

Well, here's the thing: he doesn't. But don't take my word for it. Try looking at everything Krugman has been saying on health insurance the past few months instead of just focusing on one column.

Two months ago, Krugman actually responds to the question of why the current Democratic plans are not proposing a single payer system. Krugman's take?

A number of people, including Atrios (who happens to be a trained economist) and Matthew Yglesias have been wondering why, exactly, the Democratic plans for health care involve such complicated schemes. The generic Demoplan, which basically follows the template laid down by John Edwards, involves four moving pieces: community rating, requiring that insurance companies offer insurance to everyone at the same rate regardless of medical history; a mandate, requiring that everyone have insurance; subsidies to help lower-income people pay for insurance; and public-private competition, in which people have the option of buying into a plan run by the government.

The alternative would be single-payer, aka Medicare for all: a payroll tax on everyone, and a government insurance program for everyone. Wouldn’t that be simpler, easier to administer, and more efficient?

Yes, it would. I myself described the Schwarzenegger plan in California, which contains all these elements except the public-private competition, as a "Rube Goldberg device — a complicated, indirect way of achieving what a single-payer system would accomplish simply and directly. "

He goes on to affirm that:

In an ideal world, I’d be a single-payer guy. But I see the chance of getting universal care, imperfect but fixable, just a couple of years from now. And I want to grab that chance.

It is in this context we need to understand his discussion of mandates. Krugman is not advocating these cobbled together mixes of government assistance, private insurance and government mandates as a substitute for a single-payer system. He's advocating it as something that can be achieved politically in 2009.

So agree or disagree with Krugman on whether single-payer can be achieved in 2009. Agree or disagree with him on whether mandates are politically manageable. But please, don't distort him into someone who is opposed to a single-payer system. Single-payer is what he wants, and he's stated as much in many of his columns over the past couple of years.

My personal opinion on mandates: if we're going to fix two of the current problems with healthcare-- the fact that insurance companies are allowed to reject applicants based on their health, and the fact that so-called "pre-existing conditions" aren't covered for the first year of insurance if you were previously uninsured for 60 days before receiving your new insurance-- we have to mandate coverage. Otherwise, a significant number of people would simply not buy health insurance until they became sick, which would substantially drive up the price of insurance for everyone else.

The preferred solution is universal, single-payer healthcare. Anything else is just a band-aid. But Krugman acknowledges that; he's of the opinion that a band-aid is better than nothing, and that all we can manage now is a band-aid.

So argue with what he actually says. I'm confident arguments can be marshalled against him. Just don't attribute to him views he doesn't actually hold.

Tags: Paul Krugman, Healthcare, Single-Payer (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 57 comments

  •  Tips for (28+ / 0-)

    contextualizing

    "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

    by dedmonds on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:11:43 PM PDT

  •  yeah, the mandate approach -- if done right... (12+ / 0-)

    can be an intermediate step towards UHC.

    I'm not sure how the Obama plan gets us there. I'm not even sure that Obama likes single-payer.

    It's not a campaign. It's a movement. Will you stand up?

    by danthrax on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:20:17 PM PDT

  •  I knew I had read Krugman espousing these (10+ / 0-)

    views and thought it was bizarre, the attacks on him.

    Recommended, unlike the other diaries seen here on the subject. It's sad when the political posturing extends outwards into these massive smear campaigns.  

    Thanks for putting the perspective back in.

    "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

    by shpilk on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:21:56 PM PDT

    •  oh, and as I did post on one of those diaries, (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      groggy, DaleA, dkmich, dedmonds, pioneer111

      one of the real problems with the health care industry  is "for profit" insurance companies being involved with health care, to begin with. They offer nothing of value: doctors and trained professionals should be more than capable determining the levels of appropriate care required, as medicine was practiced in this country up until the 1970s.

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:25:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How does that explain his BS cheapshots on Obama? (0+ / 0-)

    The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

    by RonK Seattle on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:25:09 PM PDT

    •  I'm not sure (11+ / 0-)

      what cheapshots you're talking about.

      Krugman believe mandates are necessary for the patchwork version of healthcare that's politically manageable in 2009 to function. Obama's plan doesn't include mandates.

      So I'm not really sure how expressing that opinion constitutes a cheap shot.

      Unless there's something else I'm missing.

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:26:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When your skin get's really thin, (8+ / 0-)

        as it's want to do when your protective instincts overwhelm your sense of reason, everything feels like a cheap shot.

        Keith Olbermann: If you truly revere Eward R. Murrow, it's time to change your sign off from "Good Night and Good Luck" to Fired Up and Ready to Go!"

        by sgary on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:29:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe this will help (0+ / 0-)

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Krugman discards both logic and evidence, and pulls a series of rhetorical fast ones to mislead careless readers.

        As a Krugman fan, and an Obama detractor, I find this just too ugly to follow any more closely.

        Yes, there's definitely a hidden agenda here and it ain't single payer.

        The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

        by RonK Seattle on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:29:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Krugman is WRONG about mandates (0+ / 0-)

        Full stop.

        We should not discuss compelling people to buy health insurance until we are assured that K Street hasn't tweaked the fine print to mandate that we purchase crappy policies at inflated prices.

        A federal law to require everyone to buy over-priced poor quality insurance would be a financial feast for health insurance executives and a wet dream for K Street.

        First things first -- quality care at an affordable price. Then we can discuss mandates (which are not relevant to single payer, anyway).

        = = =

        In the meantime I support 200% the idea of using general federal revenues to purchase medical care for the uninsured -- especially children.

        If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

        by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:38:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  he doesn't think Obama's plan gets us to UHC (9+ / 0-)

      It's really that simple. There's no backstory, where Obama's cousin killed Krugman's nephew.

      It's not a campaign. It's a movement. Will you stand up?

      by danthrax on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:27:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  None of 'em get us to UHC (0+ / 0-)

        ... and Krugman's attempt to skewer Obama leaves principled argument in the dust. Why?

        The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

        by RonK Seattle on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:33:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think mandates will get us to UHC (0+ / 0-)

        And besides . . .

        We should not discuss compelling people to buy health insurance until we are assured that K Street hasn't tweaked the fine print to mandate that we purchase crappy policies at inflated prices.

        A federal law to require everyone to buy over-priced poor quality insurance would be a financial feast for health insurance executives and a wet dream for K Street.

        First things first -- quality care at an affordable price. Then we can discuss mandates (which are not relevant to single payer, anyway).

        = = =

        In the meantime I support 200% the idea of using general federal revenues to purchase medical care for the uninsured -- especially children.

        If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

        by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:37:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  your problem is (4+ / 1-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, SignalSuzie, pioneer111, zombierain
      Hidden by:
      RonK Seattle

      that you really don't know what a cheap shot is.  A cheap shot is what Obama supporters did to Krugman.  

      ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

      by dkmich on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 02:48:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Krugman Hasn't Attacked Obama At All (2+ / 1-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, pioneer111
      Hidden by:
      RonK Seattle

      He's pointing out the facts about Obama's Health Care Plan. Krugman has been very kind while doing so; even as Obama has issued an "oppo research" report on Krugman on Obama's website. Your mischaracterization of Krugman's columns as "attacks" just shows you haven't read any of them.

      December 7, 2007
      Op-Ed Columnist
      The Mandate Muddle
      By PAUL KRUGMAN

      Imagine this: It’s the summer of 2009, and President Barack Obama is about to unveil his plan for universal health care. But his health policy experts have done the math, and they’ve concluded that the plan really needs to include a requirement that everyone have health insurance — a so-called mandate.

      Without a mandate, they find, the plan will fall far short of universal coverage. Worse yet, without a mandate health insurance will be much more expensive than it should be for those who do choose to buy it.

      But Mr. Obama knows that if he tries to include a mandate in the plan, he’ll face a barrage of misleading attacks from conservatives who oppose universal health care in any form. And he’ll have trouble responding — because he made the very same misleading attacks on Hillary Clinton and John Edwards during the race for the Democratic nomination.

      ***

      Mr. Obama is storing up trouble for health reformers by suggesting that there is something nasty about plans that "force every American to buy health care."

      Look, the point of a mandate isn’t to dictate how people should live their lives — it’s to prevent some people from gaming the system. Under the Obama plan, healthy people could choose not to buy insurance, then sign up for it if they developed health problems later. This would lead to higher premiums for everyone else. It would reward the irresponsible, while punishing those who did the right thing and bought insurance while they were healthy.

      Here’s an analogy. Suppose someone proposed making the Medicare payroll tax optional: you could choose not to pay the tax during your working years if you didn’t think you’d actually need Medicare when you got older — except that you could change your mind and opt back in if you started to develop health problems.

      Can we all agree that this would fatally undermine Medicare’s finances? Yet Mr. Obama is proposing basically the same rules for his allegedly universal health care plan.

      http://www.nytimes.com/...

      Which Democrat's Health Plan
      Really, Truly Covers More People?
      By LAURA MECKLER
      December 5, 2007; Page A8
      http://online.wsj.com/...

      Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. ~Potter Stewart

      by SignalSuzie on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:21:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have a problem with us eating our own (0+ / 0-)

        when they deserve it.  Krugman has been a pillar of progressivism.  He doesn't like Obama's plan, and WHAM.  The dirty, rotten, yadda, yadda, yadda.

        ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

        by dkmich on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 10:08:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with Krugman's (12+ / 0-)

    critique of Obama's plan and use of right wing attacks on universal healthcare.  

    Jerome Armstrng has apost on the Obama campaigns attacks on Krugman on MYDD:

    If there's one person that I would point to in the establishment press that was there during the wilderness, the period of '01-'03, before Dean arrived on the scene, it was Paul Krugman. The guy should be awarded some sort of Presidential award by the next President for his truth telling while nearly all the rest of the establishment press could only be found on their knees in front of BushCo during the beginning of this decade.

    snip

    It's mistakes like these that make me think that if Obama gets the nomination, it's going to be disgusting to watch as he turns against progressives in his bid for the middle, and as he says, that's the way he'd govern too.

    Obama attacking Paul Krugman's credibility

    Ezra also was very good:

    It's not only the actual attacks that are weak (most of them rely on misinterpreting one comment, then misinterpreting the next, then pretending there's a contradiction), but, seriously, it's Paul Krugman. Arguably the most progressive voice in American media. When I argued that the campaign should take the gloves off, I really didn't expect their target, in this document and in the health care fight more generally, would be progressivism. What in hell is going on over there?

    Obama v. Krugman

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:27:38 PM PDT

    •  The attacks (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, SignalSuzie, pioneer111, TomP

      on Krugman were just nonsense. Jerome is right about Krugman--he was a voice in the wilderness about the Bush administration.

      I just can't understand the knee jerks from the Obama campaign. If you can't understand that criticism is part of the game. Lord knows, I get tired of the "my candidate can't be criticized but yours is scum" stupidity around here.

      I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

      by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 05:32:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amen, Ga6thDem (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ga6thDem, pioneer111

        I'm sick of it too. It doesn't say much to new readers when they come to DKos and see pile-on attacks of anyone who dares to criticize an Obama proposal, or highlight a flaw in Obama's campaign.

        This site is always best when information is the springboard for a rational discussion about progressive values, and the rank hypocrisy of this Republicon Party's "values" agenda.

        Instead of attacking anyone who points out a flaw in your chosen candidate or one of his/her proposals, I really wish people would just try to debate the proposals themselves, so that we could enlighten and inform readers who come here, instead of the free-for-alls that are taking place now.

        Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. ~Potter Stewart

        by SignalSuzie on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:41:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  While I wouldn't go as far (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    groggy, pioneer111, bhagamu

    as either of those critiques, I do think there's something problematic in the responses I've seen to criticism of Obama's healthcare plan.

    "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

    by dedmonds on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:31:25 PM PDT

  •  Single Payer is the Best Solution (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dkmich, Bill White

    But if none of the leading candidates are going there because it's not politically possible right now, why the outrage at Obama because he makes a judgment that mandates are also not politically possible. Some would say that both opinions are wrong, and single payer is not only politically possible, but the only desirable way to go. It's all just different opinions about what's possible right now. And I think  Barack Obama a lot more qualified to make a determination about what's politically possible than Paul Krugman.

    •  Because Obama walks on water and any reports (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, pioneer111

      to the contrary are to be immediately quashed and the messenger attacked.  Give those anti-Obama heretics an inch, and next thing you know, they'll think they're entitled to an opinion.

      ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

      by dkmich on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 02:50:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama lacks political courage. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, pioneer111

      Without a mandate it will not work. What don't you get about this. It don't work. Presumably Edwards and Clinton who are also politician and think they can get them passed have a  lot more guts than Obama.

      •  Obama is calculating.... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MontanaMaven, pioneer111, okamichan13

        Barack Obama is calculating that he can win over Republicans if he attacks "mandates" for health insurance coverage. Or he's calculating that some progressives are so uninformed about these issues, that he can fool them with fancy footwork. I guess he's right about that.

        Now, a politician being calculating isn't shocking to me, but the so-called progressives here at Daily Kos who keep attacking other progressives for pointing out the flaws in some of Obama's proposals do surprise me. They clearly aren't thinking straight about this candidate on many levels.

        But, his proposals are clearly showing that he really doesn't have the experience he needs to become president. For example, using GOP talking points about Social Security "in crisis" was a very clear stumble. And, talking about raising caps on SS without even realizing that it's a huge tax increase was another stumble. And, now his attacks on health care coverage "mandates" is another stumble.

        Why some progressives here can't see that is really surprising.

        Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. ~Potter Stewart

        by SignalSuzie on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:28:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe it's the definition of "progressive" that (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pioneer111

          is now muddier than liberal. I prefer to use liberal.  A liberal embraces "Liberty, with equality and fraternity".  They are inseparable.  Universal heath care is either universal or it isn't.  Who gets left behind?  No brother or sister should be left behind.

          If Obama supporters want to support HIM fine.  But be clear why.  He's a pro-business guy.  Fine.  But "business" doesn't need the help right now.  Labor does.

          We had a guy in his fifties hang himself last Saturday. He left a note saying that he couldn't pay his medical bills and was ashamed.  This is not an intellectual exercise.  People are dying.  

          This is urgent.    

          "It is not be cause things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult." Seneca

          by MontanaMaven on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:53:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bullshit! I say Hillary is playing (0+ / 0-)

        three card monte on behalf of her K Street clients.

        Promise us universal coverage but give us a federal law than compels all Americans to buy crappy policies at inflated prices.

        If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

        by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:25:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

          aren't you allowed to buy into Medicare? If that's the case then you aren't forced to buy "bad coverage."

          As long as there are cost concerns, whether the insurance is public or private, there's going to be crappy coverage.

          I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

          by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:39:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Those details . . . (0+ / 0-)

            Such as the "Medicare buy-in for everyone" price point have not yet been established, as far as I can tell.

            If Medicare buy-in is set low enough, of course everyone will buy in to Medicare and no one will purchase private insurance. If the buy-in price is "too high" no one will buy in to Medicare.

            Until we know what price point is being proposed we cannot evaluate the proposal.

            If Congress sets the Medicare buy in price point "too high" and mandates converage, then insurance companies will receive windfall profits;

            If Congress sets the Medicare buy in price point "low enough" then we can skip the mandates, and anyone who wants affordable coverage can simply buy in to Medicare and voila! voluntary single payer.

            = = =

            Medicare buy-in for everyone is something I do support -- if the price point is low enough to be feasible for enough people.

            But why do we need mandates for that?

            If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

            by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 10:16:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because (0+ / 0-)

              unless you have everybody in the pool then the costs won't come down. Anytime you allow people to opt out you are still going to have cost shifting unless you end treating people without insurance so there's an incentive to buy insurance. Without some sort of mandate you are going to have people choose not to have insurance even if they can afford it.

              I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

              by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 01:37:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I assert this is magical thinking (0+ / 0-)

                not supported by reality:

                Unless you have everybody in the pool then the costs won't come down.

                WHY and HOW does having everyone in the pool lower the profits earned by Big Pharma, for example? Remember, under current Medicare D Big Pharma has a guaranteed high profit monopoly.

                No aggressive negotiation of prices.

                We can change that without mandates.

                = = =

                Anyway, I have spent time in child support courtrooms trying to persuade deadbeat dads to pay up. The idea that Washington will pass a law and everyone will cheerfully pay is simply nuts. Freaking nuts.

                Don't waste time and money trying to collect insurance premiums from deadbeats.

                Offer Medicare buy in to everyone at a price point lower than private coverage, drive the private insurers OUT OF BUSINESS (with respect to primary coverage) and let private insurers offer supplemental and Cadillac care to those who want more than the basic coverage.

                Kids get covered free.

                If an adult is uninsured and seeks treatment, give it to them (paid for by Uncle Sam) and file a lien for the money due.

                If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

                by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:52:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No because (0+ / 0-)

                  like I said before there's going to be cost shifting. And unless you get rid of cost shifting which would require a mandate you basically have the same system you have now.

                  Medicare D was poorly written and I share your concern for the lobbyist angle but in all honestly, Obama's plan is no plan as I understand it.

                  If you think that people won't pay then why even offer a plan? Why not just leave it as it is?

                  Medicare would be offered at a lower price point. That's why conservatives oppose this kind of thing so vehemently. They know that the majority of people will choose Medicare due to the cost.

                  Putting a lien on someone's house is cost shifting. The cost will be shifted onto Medicare and private insurers because they will only recoup their money when the homeowner dies or sells which could be years. And what happens if they have no assets? Or their medical bills are higher than the value of the house? This is the system we have in place now.
                  Covering children for free is another cost shifting mechanism.

                  Again you seem to be advocating for the current system that we have.

                  I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

                  by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:42:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Another (0+ / 0-)

              point:
              The medicare buy in price will never be as high as private insurance I can tell you as someone who has worked in insurance. The profit motive is not there in Medicare and there are no stockholders to answer to other than the American people. What is the medicare price right now? It has to be pretty low since you don't hear many elderly people griping about how high their premium is.

              I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

              by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 01:43:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unless private insurance lobbyists (0+ / 0-)

                prevent Congress from setting the Medicare buy-in price lower than private insurance.

                If the Medicare buy in price will be lower than private insurance, private insurance will very quickly go out of business, except for supplemental coverage.

                But if this is Hillary's plan, it is very well disguised.

                I will continue to oppose mandates very very strongly UNLESS and UNTIL an affordable Medicare buy in price is set in stone. But, if an affordable Medicare buy in price is established, why would we need mandates anyway?

                Unless we are overcharging young and healthy people to subsidize the rest of us.

                If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

                by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:45:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  In Feb Paul will be quest on AirAmerica Cruise (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pioneer111

    http://www.airamericacruise.com/...

    I look forward meeting Paul

    "The Conservatives definition of torture: Anything that provides death or false information from its captive." Me 2007

    by army193 on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 02:53:01 AM PDT

  •  Smart Universal health care is needed. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Newzie, pioneer111

    Do you know for example that Medicare does not pay for an annual physical?  The single most important "wellness" screening device AND THEY DON'T FUCKIN PAY FOR IT!

    Doctors need to cobble together a bunch of symptoms that qualify in order to accomplish the goal if at all.  Mostly, the participant pays.

    Our system is designed to maximize profit for the medical industry rather than serve the needs of the population.

  •  There isn't a snowball in hells chance of passing (4+ / 0-)

    single payer universal healthcare on the Medicare model. There is not even the remotest chance of getting elected on that platform. If there was why wouldn't Edwards, Obama and Clinton be proposing it. Unlike some of the "experts" here they have sufficient political realism to understand this and have come up with what essentially is a half way house. Not perfect but a big step forward and something of a trojan horse as the right recognize which is they are so violently against it. Unfortunately Obama's plan has a gaping hole and Krugman has pointed it out. Without mandated participation it is not going to work. Instead of recognizing the problem and adjusting his stance with good grace he has chosen to defend a patently wrong position and of course all his defenders here have to fall in line which results in them getting into some very convoluted positions like saying we should only be satisfied with a single payer system now. When's that going happen. Never or at least for a very long time. But that doesn't matter the 47 million can wait.    

    •  I will give kudos to Clinton for her stance (0+ / 0-)

      I do think she and her team "copied" Edwards in that they examined it and other options and obviously came to the conclusion that a plan more like Edwards with a mandate was needed.  Her team chose to do what is right and based on the opinion of the best experts in the field rather than what is different in order to avoid being accused of copying.  Obama is choosing to defend a flawed plan.

    •  Perhaps, but mandates will make a bad situation (0+ / 0-)

      worse.

      Because of your unfair comments about Obama's plan I will repeat my new mantra:

      Hillary's health care plan is playing three card monte on behalf of her K Street clients.

      Promise us universal coverage but give us a federal law than compels all Americans to buy crappy policies at inflated prices.

      = = =

      What we should all agree upon is that the current health care situation is FUBAR-ed and that the right course to follow is not clear and therefore remove this issue as an issue in the primaries.

      Until a comprehensive solution is found and enacted I fully support using general federal revenue to assist those without adequate health care.

      If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

      by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:29:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Except this isn't what it does (0+ / 0-)

        "give us a federal law than compels all Americans to buy crappy policies at inflated prices."

        Maybe you missed the public option as well as all the parts of the Edwards plan that actually reduce costs, including the mandate.

        Indeed as Krugman, Kohn and others have pointed out the cost reduction elements of Edwards and Clinton's plans are greater than Obama's even without the mandate.

        •  "Public option" remains hypothetical & undefined (0+ / 0-)

          If a public option is cheaper than comparable private coverage then why do we need mandates.

          And if this is true:

          Indeed as Krugman, Kohn and others have pointed out the cost reduction elements of Edwards and Clinton's plans are greater than Obama's even without the mandate.

          Maybe yes, maybe no, I dunno as I haven't looked close enough, then

          Just drop all this mandate nonsense and focus on this.

          = = =

          In any event, health care reform will require cooperation between POTUS, House and Senate.

          Frankly, ANY of Obama, HRC, Edwards, Dodd, Biden and Richardson will get us to the same place once the legislative process is put in play.

          Senate Majority Leader Hillary Rodham Clinton could probably do a better job of getting her plan enacted than POTUS HRC.

          Fewer distractions and and fewer attacks from the Republicans.

          If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

          by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:56:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for this diary. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Inky, Newzie, pioneer111, TomP, okamichan13

    There is no such thing as universal coverage without some sort of a mandate. That's true whether it's single payer or insurance-based. If it's single payer, the mandate becomes a mandate to pay your taxes associated with providing it. Under this system, the mandate is for everyone to be covered, in most cases by buying insurance, but (under the Edwards plan anyway) by getting insurance for free for low income people.

    Universal means everyone IS covered. Period. It does not mean everyone has the mere potential to be covered, if they can afford it.

    I have been continually disappointed that Obama, who said he was for universal health care in the very first debate this year, has proposed something that is not universal and then, rather than explain why he changed his mind, has been using Orwellian language to try to redefine what universal means.

    I am an EDWARDS DEMOCRAT.

    by be inspired on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 05:14:17 AM PDT

  •  Excellent discussion of Krugman's thought (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Inky, dedmonds

    Very much appreciated analysis.

    We need universal health care coverage.  In my view mandates are part of the way of expanding the public options and would get us to single payer faster.

  •  The band aid is worse than the cure (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Bill White

    Because it will dissolve the pressure for the single payer.

    Too many people will lose interest assuming the rube goldberg plan has solved the problem.

    No Rube Goldberg.   let's get on to the solution, single payer, immediately.

    Obama used to be for single payer before he came out against it.

    by formernadervoter on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 06:48:59 AM PDT

  •  It is my understanding that (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pioneer111

    the Edwards Universal Health Care Plan will offer options.  If you are happy with your current plan, you can stay with it.  If you aren't happy with it, you can go with the government plan, but everybody must be covered.  That is the best solution I've seen.

    www.EENRBlog.com
    http://www.campaignamerica08.com &
    or http://www.onecarolinagirlvideos.com

    by OneCarolinaGirl on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 07:07:47 AM PDT

    •  It should have progressive payments (0+ / 0-)

      There are many who are not covered by the povery guidelines who cannot afford to pay for insurance and are not covered by Medicaid.

      Some who have a little extra money may have more interesting places to put it, like invest it or pursue their career.

      I am against mandates, unless insurance is very affordable and the payments are on a sliding scale, with good benefits.

      We need to be careful that we aren't just funnelling the insurance companies more profits and taking much needed money from the middle class.

  •  Community rating is defined (0+ / 0-)

    as "everyone pays the same amount" on the website of Medicare.  It is defined on here as meaning that everyone is accepted.

  •  Do not run with scissors (0+ / 0-)

    unless we have rock solid assurances that insurance companies will not use K Street to write the fine print in any legislation, mandates offer a very real risk that federal law will be used to compel us to buy crappy policies at inflated prices.

    First things first - correct that which makes health care not affordable.

    I very much suspect that current levels of profit for Big Pharma, large medical corporations and the insurance industry are INHERENTLY INCOMPATIBLE with universal affordable care.

    In other words, if we fail to slash excessive profits FIRST then mandates will end up being a financial feast for large corporations and a wet dream for K Street.

    If Barack Obama drew a line in the sand and Harry Reid stepped across it, then what?

    by Bill White on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 08:22:58 AM PDT

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