Daily Kos

Hillary's Iraq problem

Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:15:01 AM PDT

Slot this in the "cry me a river" category:

Mrs. Clinton’s advisers do not relish the idea of someone bringing up her 2002 Senate vote at every campaign stop.

Clinton cast a vote that has led to one of the biggest foreign policy disasters in this nation's history -- a vote that even cursory skepticism would've counseled against.

Most of the presidential candidates have gotten the "I fracked up the vote" stuff out of the way last year. It's not the most compelling tack to take -- if their judgment was so poor as to vote for the darn thing, why should we promote them. We talk about DC being a place where people fail upward. Do we really want to encourage that within our own party?

But in any case, pro-war Dems who have unequivocally admitted their mistake don't have to offer tortured justifications for their war. They can honestly take Clinton pollster Mark Penn's advice:

It’s important for all Democrats to keep the word ‘mistake’ firmly on the Republicans and on President Bush. Senator Clinton has been very clear that we, as a party, should keep the focus on Bush — these were his mistakes. Ultimately that’s very important, not just for her, but for the entire Democratic party.

Too bad for Penn that just ain't gonna happen. I have no interest in giving a pass to those Democrats who aided and abetted Bush's mistakes, and I especially have no interest in giving a pass to those who demonstrate Bushian inability to offer self-reflection and admit that mistake. It's not a question of offering an "apology". I want acknowledgment of past mistakes.

These Democrats didn't just enable Bush's war, they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening. And while most of the candidates in the field have come around, Hillary remains the notable exception.

Those who have admitted their mistakes are now free to train their sights on the GOP. It doesn't absolve them from their terrible judgment, but it mitigates it. While it's best to not make a mistake in the first place, it's even worse to compound that mistake by refusing to come to terms with it.

Clinton doesn't have that. And what's worse, she has pretty much lost the window of opportunity to do so. After resisting for so long, she finds herself in the thick of the presidential primary (yes, even a year out) with no room to maneuver. If she suddenly reverses course and decides that yes, she'll take personal responsibility for her vote, it'll feed into the strongest anti-Hillary narrative -- that she's a panderer and will say what is most politically expedient at the moment.

It's a sad state of affairs, but Hillary has made her bed. And while her advisors may cringe that voters demand she account for Iraq at every campaign stop, I hope she continues to get grilled on it. She deserves nothing less.

Update: Ahh, now it's Hillary advisor James Carville trying to tie Iraq into 9/11 to justify Hillary's war vote:

There was James Carville on CNN's Situation Room, desperately trying to explain why Sen.

Clinton voted for the war, even though other senators who had been given the same faulty intel she had, voted against it: "But they weren't from New York," he said. "Their state wasn't hit. They didn't have to deal with the grief of these 3,000 people."

As you recall, Hillary has already tried to make Cheney's favorite connection in trying to justify her vote:

As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and am still dealing with the aftereffects.

Arguing that since New York was hit, we had to bomb the fuck out of a country that had nothing to do with it, then invade it and lose what will eventually be a trillion dollars and countless lives is really not an endearing argument.

  • ::

Tags: Iraq, 2008 elections, president, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 896 comments

  •  Until she says she made a mistake (25+ / 0-)

    with her vote then she is no different than W in my mind.

    " In our every deliberation,we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations" From the great law of the Iroquois confederacy.

    by flatford39 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:17:15 AM PDT

    •  Its too late now, too. (65+ / 0-)

      It wouldnt seem like an honest admission so much as something she was badgered into admitting.

      That guy at her NH stump who asked the Iraq question presented it WONDERFULLY, and IMO gave her the last opportunity to answer it with an admission of regret. But she didnt. And now she cant.

      It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

      by ablington on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:19:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  HRC Didn't Just Vote for the AUMF (54+ / 0-)

        she truly supports the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Although she has criticized Bush's handling of the war, HRC has stood right beside Joementum policy-wise with regard to Iraq. There is NOTHING she can say now that will ever overcome that for me.

        This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

        by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:25:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Now don't you contradict Jimmy Carville! (12+ / 0-)

              He's always right, even when he's wrong!

              :P

          •  Coming up on 100% of the time (7+ / 0-)

            The only thing worse is Mary Matalin -- who must make Republicans squirm with her smug pickle puss as often as Carvill makes Dems squirm.

            •  someone should ask Hillary to list (13+ / 0-)

              her biggest mistakes of her first senate term..

              that's a question I'd like to see.

              Why do Murdoch and David Brooks like Hillary?

              by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:55:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  how about mistakes admitted by all here? (3+ / 0-)

                who support funding the war now.

                the more we bomb, the worse things will be.

                " what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil " -- Alan Greenspan

                by carlos oaxaca on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:58:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Not merely the IWR, it's Hillary's continued Iraq (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                David Boyle

                War boosterism in the half-decade since.  Hillary has been among the steadfast prominent members of either party in pushing to continue and expand the Iraq War.  Hillary's also been very hawkish on Iran and Syria.  Her little PR campaign about Iran today convinced nobody-- Hillary Clinton has been at the forefront of those waving bayonets in the direction of Tehran.

                This is the same reason that I'm annoyed at John Edwards right now.  He's done more of a 360 on Iraq, but he was also one of the war's biggest supporters in the Senate for 2 years after it started, and he's also pushing the anti-Iran line.  I like John Edwards' economic stands a good more than Hillary's-- she's the most awful example of DLC pro-corporatism of anybody, on outsourcing in particular and on things like credit availability to poor families, she's worse even than many republicans.

                Again, it bears repeating here-- there are countless numbers of grass-roots Democrats who will not under any circumstances vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton.  Will not vote for her at all.  The anger against her stands is far too palpable, she's too much against what the Progressive base is interested in, like Joe Lieberman.  

                People are already seeking out third parties, who would be massive beneficiaries if she's nominated. There's a critical angle here that often isn't grasped-- the Democrats control the Congress, and people angry at Hillary therefore are able to tolerate a moderate (or moderate-appearing) Republican in the White House, restrained by a Democratic Congress.  If Hillary is nominated, with all the frustration directed against her, a terrifying number of Democrats will not vote for her just because she's the nominee.  They can afford to wait until 2012 when a real progressive would presumably be nominated.

                This would be catastrophic against a GOP line-crosser like Rudy Giuliani.  

                Again, our best candidate by leaps and bounds is Barack Obama, and he is an actual progressive.  He's one of the few people who called Iraq right from the start (when he was in the Illinois legislature), and he's been keen on too many other fronts to count.  People wonder if the country's ready for him in 2008, but even if he were to lose as our nominee in 2008, he'd be a powerful contender for 2012 with the broader exposure.  HRC would be an absolute disaster for our party.  Barack, win or lose, would build up his profile tremendously and really has the capacity to unite us as we haven't been since John F. Kennedy.

                The best part, furthermore, is that I think that Barack really can win.

        •  I will vote for her if she wins the primary. (16+ / 0-)

          But I cant believe she doesnt seem to understand how this is a huge thorn in her side going into the primary season.

          It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

          by ablington on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:31:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I said the same thing about Kerry (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            revbludge, playtonjr, jct, TomP

            You'd think she would have learned something from that campaign.  Edwards has and admitted his vote was a mistake - he can move on now.

            •  does anyone have a link to Edwards' (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lynmar, TomP, End game

              senate speech.. I'd like to compare it to Hillary's

              Why do Murdoch and David Brooks like Hillary?

              by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:53:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It in the Congressional Record for (0+ / 0-)

                October 10, 2002 at page S10325-26. I'll try t hustle up the link, or perhaps someone else can move the ball here.

                Your message here. Email for summer rates.

                by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:09:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's the CR link (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  vivacia, flatford39

                  Edwards floor speech is here in the Congressional Record

                  Your message here. Email for summer rates.

                  by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:17:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  as I thought (4+ / 0-)

                    Hillary was the only one to confound Saddam with Al-Qaeda.

                    While Edwards was clearly wrong on Iraq and not a pacifist he at least clearly separated Saddam from Al Qaeda... he mentions whether or not Saddam will "distract" us from Al Qaeda.   (although none of these speeches are to be proud of in retrospect)

                    Hillary's speech.

                    He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

                    Why do Murdoch and David Brooks like Hillary?

                    by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:51:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Apparently no evidence." (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      flatford39, inevitibility

                      She seems seriously bummed about that.  As if it's a drag to live in the dreary confines of the reality-based community.  

                      She was probably torn between drinking the Kool-Aid in its entirety, or trying to keep one foot on the same planet as her saner constituents.

                      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

                      by Dale on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:35:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Hillary's speech (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      MikePhoenix

                      She acknowledged that it was a blank check but voted for it anyway:

                      Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

                      So Hillary, was taking the President at his word not a mistake?

                      Moreover, do you support the practice of signing blank checks? After all, if it's the President who has to cash the blank check which you signed, then it's clearly not your fault because he shouldn't have cashed it in the first place if at all possible, right?

          •  The Truth Is That (15+ / 0-)

            all primary voters do not think as many of us do. Her vote is the past and they are looking for the best person to MOVE FORWARD with.

            Once again I am not a Hillary fan and will vote for someone else in the primaries. But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. Many Democratic Senators voted for the AUMF. Are we going to replace them all? Do people make mistakes? And when they make one then that's it - they're finished? Please! Who here hasn't made a mistake.

            There are many reasons to not want Hilliary as our ideal nominee that are far more important than how she voted. But this 'one issue' weekly screed that Markos is obsessed with is just plain dumb. In one paragraph he says "if their judgment was so poor as to vote for the darn thing, why should we promote them." Then in another he says if they say the word "mistake" then they can proceed. A vote is a vote and if one is lame enough to use that as a litmus test of whether a Senator can move upward then we are shackling ourselves far into the future.

            The other night I was watching Bill Maher being interviewed. I don't always agree with him because sometime like all people, even Senators, he is just plain wrong. But the other night he said that he just doesn't get the mindset in America today where a politician or public figure only has to say or do one thing and then the screaming masses want to toss them to the curb as unworthy of anything anymore. I guess he would know because that is what happened to him when ABC tossed him to the curb.

            But he is right. This "one wrong word" or "one wrong issue" and you are out madness is just that - Madness.

            I suggest we start acting like educated adults and take these single issues, factor them in, but not make them the obsessive single litmus test of anyone.
            `
            `

            "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

            by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:01:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not a matter (21+ / 0-)

              of "one wrong word" or "one wrong issue". The issue was war and her word was yes.

              What we need to look at when someone makes that kind of mistake is to look at the thought process whereby they came to the reasoning that led them to act incorrectly and then observe whether or not they are still using the same thought processes to make decisions now. Right now, the boys who cried wolf about WMDs in Iraq are crying wolf over Iran. Will we be having this same conversation about Hilary's judgement and willingness to beleive Bu$hCo lies 4 years from now?

              Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

              by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:15:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Then According To Your (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                cpresley

                thought process every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                FYI the vote was not just for war. the vote was for going to the UB and putting inspectors in.

                The fact that Bush 'gamed' the AUMF and kicked the inspectors out is no one fault but Bush's.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:40:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  uhmmm (6+ / 0-)

                  > every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                  I think the whole point of this, was Hillary's inability to ADMIT that she fscked up.  And as for other unrepentant senators, yeah, they oughta be challenged, and tossed out if they just don't get it.

                  •  So For One Issue (0+ / 0-)

                    which they had 'false' intel and were under extreme political pressure...

                    You would toss them - for one issue - and forget about all the other issues that have and would benefit us for years to come?

                    Sigh. Our party really is going to the dogs.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:00:17 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  challenge != toss (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      opinionated, flatford39

                      They (said Senators who voted for AUMF) damned well OUGHT to be challenged (you know, like in a primary, and by the voters, at every campaign stop), on this.  If they don't answer to your satisfaction, do what you can to get the challenger elected.

                      For me, Hillary's "knowing what I know now, I'd have never voted" is a cop-out, and I think she's also passed the point where admitting straight out that the entire premise was a bad idea, and she truly regretted voting yes on it, wouldn't look real sincere.

                      •  who lead the fight in congress against the war? (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Geotpf, opinionated, jfm

                        http://www.wagingpeace.org/...

                        Vote "NO'' On Iraq War Resolution US
                        Statement by Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), October 3, 2002

                        Before the House of Represenatives

                        As the vote on whether or not this Nation goes to war approaches in this Chamber, a vote which most surely will come within a few days, I think it is important, Mr. Speaker, for us to be able to make the case to the American people as to why it is not appropriate for this country to go to war and to encourage the American people to call their Members to make sure that government of the people, by the people, and for the people does prevail.
                        ...

                        " what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil " -- Alan Greenspan

                        by carlos oaxaca on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:56:59 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Kucinich isn't able to win the... (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          carrieboberry, flatford39

                          ..."mainstream" voters, I'm afraid.  And the man who could (Feingold) ain't running. :(

                          Speaking of people who voted against the war, I am so looking forward to watching Ron "Dr. No" Paul throwing a gigantic monkey wrench into the Republican presidential debates. :)

                          •  I like your Ron Paul (0+ / 0-)

                            logic. He will create some havoc within the GOP and that is a good thing!!!!

                            " In our every deliberation,we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations" From the great law of the Iroquois confederacy.

                            by flatford39 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:41:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Lieberman logic (9+ / 0-)

                      'Look guys, the Iraq War is just one issue...do you really want to toss out somebody because of this one little, eensy, weensy, teeny bit of an issue?'

                      I love it.  The DLC boys are back in town, and this time they've got a little more intertubes experience under their belts.

                      Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

                      by cfaller96 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:35:16 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  According to my (13+ / 0-)

                  way of thinking, if any Senator who voted yes did so because they were naive enough to take Bu$hCo's word for anything or were too cowardly to oppose them and  is still thinking and acting the same way, then why the hell not kick them to the curb? We're a Big Tent party, but I say that we no longer have room for fools and cowards.

                  What Hillary said was that if she "knew then what she knows now", she'd have voted differently. Well, I did know then what she knows now--that Bush was lying and that this would trigger an Iraqi civil war and an bloody quagmire. Now, I'm not an educated man. In fact, I'm a high-school dropout. So why am I smarter than Hilary Rodham Clinton?

                  The fact that Bush "gamed" the AUMF is the fault of every Senator who voted for it. For them to claim that they could not have foreseen the present situation is as insulting as Condi claiming that they could never have foreseen terrorists slamming planes into buildings.

                  Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

                  by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:57:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  let's keep the tent big (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    flatford39, revbludge

                    ... but I say that we no longer have room for fools and cowards.

                    Can't we welcome those "fools and cowards", but nominate somebody else for the highest political office in America? I suspect HRC will be a positive force for the party, as well as the nation, if she continues to serve in the Senate.

                    The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                    by wystler on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:24:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If the "fools and cowards" (4+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      opinionated, revbludge, jfm, MikePhoenix

                      are big enough to admit that they made mistakes and promise not to repeat them, and then keep that promise, fine. But if not, why on Earth would we want to be represented by people that don't act in our best interests?

                      It's really that simple.

                      Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

                      by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:33:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i feel ya (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        carrieboberry, drewfromct

                        I understand completely. (And, no, it ain't because one of your senators is named Joe.)

                        HRC, at this point, represents the people of New York. She had an outrageous margin of victory in her Senate campaign. They've got her (and shared her with the rest of us).

                        There actually are more than a few things about HRC that I respect, but there's no way I'm going to want to see her prevail in the primary. Even so, I'll commit myself to respecting the will of the primary voters. If she does win the nomination, she'll have my backing, just as John Kerry did.

                        The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                        by wystler on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:39:40 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  It isn't that she voted for the resolution - it (9+ / 0-)

                  is how she has handled explaining her vote.  She and her team have grossly underestimated the public's need for clarity on this subject.

                  Carville's lame defense really makes her look weak - not stronger which is the whole reason they told her not to reverse her position on the war ages ago.  She wanted to look like a hawk.  She comes off looking like a scared victim.

                  Worse still, John Corzine of New Jersey who lost an awful lot of citizens on September 11th had the wisdom and presence of mind not to vote for the Iraq War Resolution even in light of his state's trauma.  Acting like it is a New York thing and pretending like no one else understands simply doesn't cut it.

                  If the powers that be in the party are going to shove her down my throat as my nominee, then she better get her story straight and tell people what she really thinks or she is going to get caught out in the general election.  Worse, there won't be a lot of us who will either be able to defend her or motivated to do so.

                  •  not so sure (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    inclusiveheart

                    She and her team have grossly underestimated the public's need for clarity on this subject.

                    Hope that you are right. Suspect, though, that the general public might not have that "need". (It's kinda sad.)

                    The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                    by wystler on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:42:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The media is hitting her extremely hard on this (9+ / 0-)

                      point.  It has been unending since the weekend.  And don't think for a second that the "vast right wing conspiracy" isn't egging it on.  The Clintonians are often touted as the most politically shrewd people on the face of the earth rivaled only by Rove and his camp.  The reality is that while they both have been very skilled in the past several years, they political landscape is changing and neither seems to be adapting very well.  At least, in my mind, her hedging and dodging is quite parallel to the kinds of communications that are sinking the White House at the moment.  It could almost be said that both are practicing "old style" politics where the lack of consistency and straight forward honesty was once forgiven by their audience.  I believe that the audience has changed.  They are looking for authenticity and have a lot less patience for spin and nuance than they did in the past six years.

                      I really believe she would be smart to stand up and make an Iraq speech and admit that she always wanted to invade Iraq.  That she believed that it was a very good idea even if it had nothing to do with September 11th; and that she believed that a policy of a pre-emptive war was acceptable.  I think she should admit that because I believe that is what she believed at the time.  I don't know what she believes now and she would have to go on to talk about what if anything in her thinking has changed to have satisfactorily answered the questions we want answered now.  If on the other hand she still believes everything she did at the time then she should come clean and say so.  But if she continues to weave and dodge she will get hit from both ends.  Her base won't like her and the Republicans will eat her alive in the general.  What I have always disliked about the Clintons is that they have never seemed to have an instinct for honesty.  I don't think they are total liars, but I don't think that their first thought is "just tell the truth".  I think that truth is weigheted on a par with nuance and lies and wins out with them if and only if it is politically advantageous.  If Senator Clinton was an unknown quantity, she might get away with it, but Americans are a much tougher crowd than they were in 2000 and 2004.

                      •  You're only seeing half the story (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Lois, opinionated, inclusiveheart

                        Though the media seems to be hitting, they're even moreso handing us HRC as presumptive nominee. Thus, their narrative is still that Dems are second-fiddle losers.

                        Don't count on the traditional media to get anything done. If HRC's poll numbers begin to drop, they'll suppress this story ...

                        The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                        by wystler on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:16:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm not sure what you mean about counting on (0+ / 0-)

                          the traditional media to get anything done.  I am really looking at this as John Kerry's swift boat moment and think her failure to hit this question head on is really going to hurt her.  The worst thing is that in this case we can't even refute the facts - she did vote for the war and her explanations are confusing.

                      •  this isn't going to change things with (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        inclusiveheart

                        Hillary's base.

                        Her base is the subset of Fortune 1000 CEOs who are willing to finance her. It's a 20th century corporate-subsidized and corporatist values campaign, just like Bill's in the 1990s.

                        The marks that support Hillary are exactly that. Since they'll vote for her regardless of what she does or says, she doesn't care what they think.

                        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                        by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:55:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It is her choice. (0+ / 0-)

                          She can not care at her own peril.  I think she and her team are underestimating their early 21st Century audience.  It is back to that whole thing about her negatives.  They are high.  It would be a miscalculation to not only have a camp that is quite large that really detests you and then go on to make your base uneasy in addition.

                          •  that's what I meant about her (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            inclusiveheart

                            running a 90s style campaign where "new media" is something one does on TV.

                            And I'd like to emphasise that her marks fanatics are NOT her base. Without corporate support, Hillary wouldn't even be in the also-ran category.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:41:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  You and I (3+ / 0-)

                    have agreed on  a lot of things in the past. In fact this is the first issue that I remember we don't agree on and it really is not a big deal. I feel that the word 'mistake' is not necessary and that Hillary has clearly enough stated she would not vote the same again and you and others feel it necessary for her to explain it in the way you want it explained.

                    Myself - the word "mistake" is just not that big a deal. As I said in another post in this thread I think the words she used, that she has "taken responsibility" for her vote are far stronger that the word "mistake".

                    It is one thing for a person to say they made a mistake which does not necessarily include responsibility. But it is much more courageous and meaningful to accept responsibility.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:58:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree taking responsibility is powerful and (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      talex, flatford39

                      important.  What is tripping her up is the second part which is what would she do differently the next time and there will be a next time.  I am concerned also about whether or not I'll watch this campaign and finally end up having a stroke out of frustration watching the Clinton team calculate their messaging to the point where they talk themselves out of the job.  I'm really not in the camp that wants her to give blood for her errors here.  But I am realistic enough to understand that the more she dances the more she will be forced to dance.  Carville and Begala (I saw Begala go with the "she was in shock" narrative either last week or the week before) suggesting that her emotion was that much of a factor in her decision is only going to make it worse for her.  I'm talking pure media strategy here and fairly objectively.  The thing is that even though I'm not a fan, I actually am loathe to see any Democrat fail at this level.  I hope for her sake get can get it back under control.

                      •  Good Post (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        inclusiveheart

                        and well thought out as usual.

                        I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say "What is tripping her up is the second part which is what would she do differently the next time and there will be a next time". Are you talking about how she would handle a possible future military confrontation or how she will handle the issue of her vote next time.

                        If it is future military confrontation I really don't think she would lie us into a war or even go into a war without clear cut non-manipulated intel. She is no fool and has seen how Iraq has harmed our country. Besides if we are still in Iraq in January 2009 we won't have the military strength to do anything else. I think that is one of the reasons
                        Bush is trying to Make Nice with N. Korea. He has no army  left to take them on and he is trying to take threats off the table so we can't beat him over the head with them by talking about how Iraq puts us in danger with other threats.

                        Now if you are talking about how she would handle the issue of her vote then that is easy. It won't come up again. At least not in the General Election should she get the nomination. I mean what would the repubs do - slam here for voting yes? They can't do that and won't do that. In fact you don't even hear them doing that now. No actually as much as we don't like it her yes vote is one weapon the repubs won't have to use against her. Same with Edwards.

                        No, right now the only one beating up on her as you mentioned upthread are the MSM. And the sad thing is that many on the Left are actually help fuel it and giving the MSM the talking point that the Left doesn't like her which helps keep there story going. That is what I have been trying to communicate the last few weeks but many here have blinders on and refuse to see it.

                        As for Carville and Begala - yeah they scare me too. But you know what even if Hilliary disassociated herself from them completely they would still be out there flapping their traps just to be on TV. And it would be the same with any candidate. If Edwards or Obama or any of the others were to get the nomination the poisonous Carville and Begala would still be out there flapping their traps. It's scary for sure.

                        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                        by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:57:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What she would do in the face of another threat (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          flatford39

                          is my question - I wasn't clear.  You see the intelligence community is complex and there is a lot of "noise" about a lot of stuff almost constantly.  Being able to cut through the bull is going to be more challenging since BushCo has essentially infiltrated the Pentagon and the CIA in the ways that they have.  Next assuring me that she isn't the sort of person who buys into pre-emptive strikes would be a big plus - and I have to say I haven't heard her say she has a problem with them unless I missed them.  Those are my two personal issues - and I have heard others express similar concerns about her position and Republicans who don't reject that policy.  Oddly Begala's and Carville's stated defense exaggerates my need for her to clarify her position.  I am frankly stunned that the Clinton team wouldn't have anticipated that someone could have that perspective on their line of defense.

                          As for Begala and Carville (oh and also McAuliffe) - they are taking their marching orders from the Senator at the moment and what they have said has given me pause as to their overall ability to get this deal done.  Keeping in mind that none of them have really been out amongst the people since 1992 - I think their performance is still amazingly tone deaf.  Especially if her opponent ends up being McCain, she is going to have to make sure that she doesn't appear to be calculating becuse he is a master of being calculating and not appearing to be.  So is Giuliani.  Anyhow, we'll see what happens.

                          Oh and the left adding to the frenzy.  I have to tell you that I have genuine concerns about both HRC and Obama.  The past six years have been too scary and too painful for me to just let stuff go unanswered or to be trusting.  I am in a really practical - list oriented - state of mind - I am also looking for authenticity, practical experience, and a level headed approach that tends towards peaceful conflict resolution and diplomacy abroad and at home.  If Obama runs a coy campaign, I won't have anything to do with him.  If Hillary continues to weave and dodge I won't have anything to do with her.  If her husband had just said the courageous and not politically correct thing about the blow job "It is none of your goddamned business" we might never have even thought about George W. Bush after November 2000.  But he wasn't into personal sacrafice when it counted.

                          Anyhow, I've gone into why I don't like the Clintons on a totally different level here and probably muddied my earlier argument which is offered in ernest as an assessment of what I think is her current political miscalculation.  I'd be saying the same about someone I supported whole-heartedly though.  I am in marketing and there is nothing that frustrates me more than a Democrat blowing this stuff especially since the Republicans have proven to be quite good at the art of communication.

            •  I don't see it that way... (12+ / 0-)

              "But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. "

              I think the obession is with the fact that she won't admit she made a mistake.  Therefore she must not feel she made a mistake, that the war is not a mistake. I think the war is a mistake ergo, I don't care to vote for her.

              If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

              by crkrjx on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:18:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I Won't Either (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                heartofblue, cpresley

                That is I won't vote for here in the primaries - but I will vote for here if she wins the nomination.  The reason I won't vote for her in the primaries isn't because I'm obsessed with her not saying the word "mistake". I'd like to think I am above that. She has said she wouldn't vote the same today. Good enough for me. But for you and others unless she says "mistake" it just isn't good enough.

                I have heard of 'one issue' voters and thinkers before but this is an example of taking things to the ridiculous extreme IMHO.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:55:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I believe if someone can't admit a mistake (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  opinionated
                  • it's a fatal flaw - case in point?  GW Bush

                  If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

                  by crkrjx on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 08:30:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  The problem is "political calculation" (11+ / 0-)

              not the vote.

              That is the main problem I have with Hillary.

              I believe she calculated that voting for the war would be the best thing for her politically, just like Kerry and Edwards did. Now, she has calculated that the best thing is not to recant.

              All I know is what I perceive to be her political stance, not her true stance on the war, which is why I don't trust her to be my president. I want someone who is not afraid to say what they believe.

              That is going to be Hillary's biggest problem to overcome. The vote is just symbolic of the underlying problem.

              Today's problems are yesterday's solutions. Don Beck

              by Sherri in TX on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:20:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  She has Recanted (9+ / 0-)

                She has said knowing what she does NOW that she would not vote yes again. That IS admitting that based on the facts now she would not vote the same.

                The problem people have is she will not say the word "mistake". I bet most people here have swallowed that word more than once themselves - that they wouldn't publicly admit the made a mistake. But yet they use it as a litmus test for others.

                As I said - let's discuss the real issues that one does not like about Hilliary. But if we are going to obsess over the word "mistake" for the next year then this blog is going to become very boring. I'd like to think that people here are broader thinkers that that. But then maybe not.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:47:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Broad thinkers... maybe not (7+ / 0-)

                  I agre talex - here's what she said in New Hampshire

                  CLINTON: Well, I have said, and I will repeat it, that, knowing what I know now, I would never have voted for it. [audience applause] But I also—and, I mean, obviously you have to weigh everything as you make your decision. I have taken responsibility for my vote. The mistakes were made by this president, who misled this country and this Congress into a war that should not have been waged.

                  Yet, many here including Markos insist on comparing her to Cheney.

                  •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    dannyinla, cpresley, fairleft

                    She has said everything she needed to say to make clear how she feels.

                    She has even "taken responsibility" for her vote while saying she would not vote the same again.

                    I know for me I'd rather see a person "take responsibility" than simply say they made a mistake. Admitting a mistake is not necessarily taking "responsibility" - and taking responsibility is what adults do - children say they make mistakes.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:02:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  It's not obsessing over a word (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  alizard

                  It's being firm on the concept of accountability. She got it wrong and won't admit it.

                  Refusing to admit that she made a mistake is to refuse to acknowledge that there was a difference between those of us who called it right back then, and those who got it wrong.

                  You either got it right or got it wrong. If you got it wrong, you need to reassess the thought processes/logic that you used to arrive at your conclusions.

                  If you refuse to admit error, you cannot reassess. If you cannot reassess, you cannot improve you defacto flawed thought process.

                  In addition to that, she is essentially refusing to accept her part in the hostile environment that those of us who got it right had to endure.

                  Kos' comment says a lot.

                  These Democrats didn't just enable Bush's war, they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening. And while most of the candidates in the field have come around, Hillary remains the notable exception.

                  There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

                  by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:09:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  She was conned (5+ / 0-)

                  The problem here is that Ms. Clinton is staking her position thusly: that there was no way she could have voted differently if she (and her staff) had been more diligent in 2002. That's the kernel of her action.

                  I really don't want to hand the White House keys to somebody who claims that she'll be no more diligent in the future than she was in October 2002. The job's too big for an easy mark ...

                  She'll never admit that she voted thusly for political purposes. We really cannot purport to know her mind on that. Still, claim that she was suckered rings hollow among those who've been paying close attention (like most fellow Kossacks). It's really a damned shame that most Democratic voters don't do likewise.

                  The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                  by wystler on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:33:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  No, she hasn't... (0+ / 0-)

                  fully explained her vote (see Bob Johnson's diary yesterday), and she seems unwilling to do so.

                  Besides, if doesn't use the word "mistake," then how am I supposed to know if she really does believe it was a mistake?  Or do you think Iran/Iraq v2.o doesn't count?

                  Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

                  by cfaller96 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:38:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Two bad choices (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                alizard, creeper

                Either we believe she's acting out of political calculation or we believe she made one of the most wrong-headed votes in the history of the Senate, based on the flimsiest of evidence, out of misguided patriotism and at the behest of a group of warmongers who had been jonesing to go to war since the nineties. The first one disgusts me, but the second choice sends a chill down my spine. Either she's a machine or an idiot. Neither one inspires my vote.

              •  This is mind-reading (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                diplomatic

                inspired by the MSM anti-Hillary (and anti-Democrat) narrative: "She is a calculating panderer (they are calculating panderers). St. John McCain is a straight shooter." The Dem nominee was killed by this in 2000 and savaged by it in 2004.

                There is no evidence that Hillary is any more calculating than any other politician. At least show me some evidence, instead of just relying on the Republican-managed 'impression' of Hillary we get from the MSM.

                I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:42:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sherri, you're right. (0+ / 0-)

                At least for me, the underlying problem with Hillary is that she isn't honest and did not stand up publicly for anything important to me, nor did she stand up with Feinstein, Murtha and other colleagues who could have used her high profile support. Interesting that in her effort to portray herself as a badass on defense, thus overcome the stereotypical passive female liberal persona, she comes across as a weak woman, lacking the courage to stand up to the boys until it was popular to do so. On the other hand, maybe she really is a hawk on defense; her speech at AIPAC a couple weeks ago surely indicates that she is. Either way, she's created a mess for herself.  

            •  Being wrong about an illegal war... (14+ / 0-)

              where countless thousands have been slaughtered is a little bit different than being wrong about the most efficient way to administer highway funds.

              I'm willing to allow mistakes in politicians, but when I, pretty much everyone who posts here, as well as millions of others all around the world were able to see that the rationale for war was a crock of shit, then why didn't Hillary. If you can't outthink George W, then you've lost my vote.

              "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

              by cometman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:20:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I Just say the same to you (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                cpresley, fairleft

                that I said to another poster above:

                Then According To Your thought process every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:50:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, I would like to see that... (4+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  leftyboy666, Roadbed Guy, jfm, MikePhoenix

                  the war is illegal.  There are no excuses.  None. Period.

                  "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

                  by cometman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:10:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Indeed, out of the other 299,999,900 (6+ / 0-)

                  people in this country - I'd be happy to take my chances that we could find another 100 qualified individuals to take over the senate . . . (OK, sure, maybe we can leave in the handful who voted against the IWR).

                •  Every Senator isn't running for president (0+ / 0-)

                  I have two responses to your response:

                  1. Every Senator isn't running for president. If you're running for president, you better have a damn good reason for the entire country why you did something stupid like vote for an illegal war. If you're not running for president, you're only responsible to your constituents, which means I only have a beef with Feinstein on this, besides Clinton.
                  1. Every Senator who's running for president isn't a former inhabitant of the White House. She should have known better. She knew what kind of snakes these guys are and she blew it.

                  A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

                  by tmo on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:56:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  ACTING LIKE ADULTS vis-a-vis HRC (12+ / 0-)

              Her vote was a colossal error, indeed.  Also, one that was supported by the vast majority of Americans (who are obviously not as quick as bloggers--that meant tongue in cheek).  THAT is why most Democrats are not raking her over the coals.

              The anti-Hillary vitriol sounds like the "right wing smear machine."  It astounds and distresses me how many writers say that they'd never vote for Hillary.  I mean, better to have a GOP Pres, to doom Roe v. Wade, destroy the COURTS, the ENVIRONMENT, etc.

              Thank you for saying the necessary:  we need to act like adults, if we want to move this country forward.

              •  Yes, I'll vote for her if she gets to the ticket (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                by foot, alizard, larrybutch

                But hell no I will not support her now.

                It's not being childlike for me to call her on the carpet for her positions.

                I don't like her positions, I don't like her explanations.

                I'm not obsessing over her vote. I am obsessing over the fact that she will not admit that it was a mistake; that there was a better position to take and for whatever reason, she failed to recognize it at the time.

                I hate it that GW won't admit mistakes, and I will hold ANY Democrat to that standard as well.

                There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

                by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:13:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  adults can admit mistakes. adults don't (0+ / 0-)

                rely on hordes of political consultants to make their decisions for them.

                What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:37:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "hordes of political consultants" = MSM spin (0+ / 0-)

                  You're just regurgitating the Republican/Rightie MSM spin on Hillary.

                  Which they'll turn on whoever is the leading Democrat, just watch.

                  She says she would've voted differently with what she knows now. That's all us adults should need. This is not a big deal, except in the MSM and here on dailykos.

                  I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                  by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:45:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  nice try, but really James, stick to CNN. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    alizard, MikePhoenix

                    that is all us adults should need? You mean we should turn off our rational thinking process (just like the bush supporters do) and blindly follow a heavily flawed candidate because she has money? You mean we should ignore thinking about what this says about her leadership qualities, intellectual curiosity and gulibility? You mean we should ignore her laziness as a senator, her willingness to hide in a crowd in order to protect her presidential aspirations and simply say, oh, that was then, this is now?

                    No way.

                    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                    by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:15:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, you should fight on real issues (0+ / 0-)

                      There's plenty wrong with the real Hillary's positions on the issues. But all kos and you ever attack is the MSM-created Hillary, the one with 'hordes of advisors' (all the Big Dems have 'many' advisors, so does Hillary), the one who's calculating, who will do anything to become President.

                      Y' know, just like Gore in 2000, that same MSM-created character the Republicans create for all the Dem Presidential candidates. The b.s. we're supposed to be fighting.

                      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:32:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OK. I agree with that completely (0+ / 0-)

                        you  win :)  and yes, I know, we are NOT having a contest. a contest suggests competition, a fight, a spat, a boxing match, a. . . .

                        What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                        by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:01:28 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  according to you (0+ / 0-)

                    ANY criticism of Hillary is Republican/Rightie MSM spin.

                    Is there some reason why anyone should take your opinions seriously?

                    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                    by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:05:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It's not just the one vote. (0+ / 0-)

              Once again I am not a Hillary fan and will vote for someone else in the primaries. But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. Many Democratic Senators voted for the AUMF. Are we going to replace them all?"

              It's not just the vote.  It is the whole-hearted support she has had for her vote up until now, and has others have said better than I can, that she has undercut us at every turn the way Joementum did.

              And I think this goes to her underlying character problem that the Republicans are eager to exploit: her cynical political opportunism.  Because I don't for one minute believe that she really believed in her vote for that.  On the one hand, I give her enough credit to see what a pile of crap that vote was when she made it.  On the other, her consistent positioning around that vote shows a sociopathic willingness to do the wrong thing.

              Hillary and her entourage really must have believed that as dumb as the war was, it was going to work to Bush's advantage for a long time and they better not get in the way, but it would be over before 2008.  It isn't, and now her strategy has failed.

              Who was it that said, "Better to be wrong and strong than right and weak?"

            •  Agree completely (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              talex

              It's the same one-issue-ism that people on this site often complain about.

              Be it choice, drugs, gay marriage, etc. Though to my mind the war is more important that any of these. To some, not.

              I fully expect a candidate to differ from me on any number of issues. Some more important than others. I will look for the candidate who most shares my views and who I think would be a good president. Right now that person is Al Gore. Unfortunately for me, I don't expect him to run. After him, I prefer Wesley Clark, after that I'm undecided.

              But whoever is the nominee, I will support that person. I'm amazed that some people on this site are refusing to make that same committment.

              How many Ralph Nader voters (or other third party) does it take to elect a GOP president?

              Don't cut your nose off to spite your face people!

          •  I won't vote for her if she wins the primary (11+ / 1-)

            We don't need another deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid president.  I'll stay home or vote for Vermin Supreme.  There are some Democrats I would vote for enthusiastically, others I'd hold my nose and vote for, and then there are those I would not vote for under any circumstances.  Hillary and Biden fall into that last category.

            JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

            by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:15:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ridiculous. Gore and Bush are the same. (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              wystler, carrieboberry, heartofblue

              Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

              by tigercourse on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:29:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Agree (6+ / 0-)

              although I reserve the right to change my mind.  I can respect the fact that some people believe in voting the lesser of two evils for any democrat, but I can't figure out why they don't respect the fact that some of us draw the line in a different place than "democrat vs republican"

              Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

              by eparrot on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:49:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are some real authoritarians here... (9+ / 0-)

                ...who relish their self-appointed roles as diary and discourse police.  They believe if you participate at this blog you are somehow required to automatically and blindly vote Democratic, regardless of how loathsome the individual candidate might be.  Tigercourse, in this thread, is one of them.  Delaware Dem is probably the best-known of them.  (Perhaps you recall some of his diaries in the weeks before the election...)  Now that he no longer blogs here there are probably plenty who want to take DD's place.  They're known for abusing the ratings policy and hijacking threads with their bleatings.  Kos has banned some of them, but there will always be more.  Authoritarians are just like that, it seems.

                JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

                by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:11:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are welcome to vote for anyone. (0+ / 0-)

                  In fact it's good that you speak up. But here's the thing would you vote for Obama or Edwards?

                  "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

                  by Salo on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:39:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The only Dem candidates I would not vote for (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    in the general election are Biden and Clinton.  In general, I support Democratic candidates.  But I do NOT support them blindly, and I very strongly DO believe in holding them accountable.

                    JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

                    by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:48:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  tough choice. (0+ / 0-)

                    I like Edwards more than Obama, but I can't get past his war vote or my fear that he will be another centrist democrat re: Israel/Palestine.  I don't like Obama as much - I worry he is more interested in philosophy than policy - but I have to admit that his record is better (albeit shorter) than Edwards'.

                    If I had to go into the booth today, I might not decide until I got there between those two and Clark.  But that's one reason I am trying to pay a lot of attention so that when I do have to vote, I am confident in the vote.

                    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

                    by eparrot on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:22:05 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  it should be mentioned (4+ / 0-)

                  as always, the statement of purpose of this site

                  This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory.

                  Certainly one can go overboard in quashing dissent.  But above is the purpose of the site.  Despite my moniker, I, for one, see the necessity right now of supporting that purpose.

                  •  Yup (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    And all the authoritarians on this site are always quick to throw that quote in the face of anyone who disagrees with them, taking a ridiculously and childishly overly-literal interpretation of it.

                    If Joe Lieberman ran as a Democrat again, would you support him?  Would you support Bush if he ran as a Democrat?  What if we dug James O. Eastland out of his grave, removed the stake that had been pounded through his heart, and ran him for president?  Would you vote for HIM?

                    JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

                    by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:53:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Since you brought up the subject of your moniker (