Daily Kos

Habeas Corpus Redux

Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:33:29 PM PDT

One of the key issues that triggered my current focus on political activism, my creating of this blog and my previous post "The Real Tragedy of 21st Century America", is that of habeas corpus, and the Military Commissions Act.

Given the introduction of S.B.576, the "Restoring the Constitution Act of 2007", it seems like this might be a good time for a posting that will try to explain what this is all about and why it troubles me. This diary borrows from two of my Vox Libertas blogs on the topic.

But, don't take my word for it. One of the themes of Vox Libertas is the importance of individual involvement. Read what I think, but make sure to get involved, formulate your own views and then work to insure that they get acted upon.

What is Habeas Corpus?

In Latin, "habeas corpus" means more or less "have the body" (or as Dorothy Sayers named her mystery story "Have His Carcass"). A writ of habeas corpus, is a demand by a court that a government agency produce a prisoner and demonstrate that the have proper grounds on which to hold him. It is called "The Great Writ", because it is the process by which Common Law countries insure the second freedom mentioned in the U.S. Declaration of Independence—Liberty—in its most fundamental form: the right not to be imprisoned arbitrarily.

Whereas the rights of free speech, religion, assembly and such are important enough to be in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, habeas corpus is important enough to be mentioned in the first article of the Constitution. Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution includes the following:

"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

What these two sentences guarantee us is:

  1. the right to require the government to justify detaining or imprisoning us
  2. the right  not to be outlawed without a trial
  3. freedom from laws passed after the fact

Collectively, they protect us from the whim of those in power, and distinguish a government of laws from a government of men.

Recent History

Our most recent problems with habeas corpus started after 9/11. In November 2001, President Bush issued a military order "Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism". This was the directive that called for the detention and trial by military commissions of aliens that the President determined were dangerous. This order was controversial because it ignored or circumvented the US federal Courts and civilian law and due process, military Courts Martial and the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Geneva Conventions, and denied the  detainees rights such as habeas corpus and speedy trial. In the end, the Supreme Court found that it was unconstitutional.

The case that brought this order to the Supreme Court is known as Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (not to be confused with Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, which is actually a case setting precedent for Hamdan v. Rumsfeld). Hamden petitioned the Washington DC US District Court for a writ of habeas corpus, which Judge James Robertson heard and decided in Hamden's favor. This decision was reversed by a three judge appeals court, including Judge John Roberts. The next day, the President nominated Roberts to the US Supreme Court, and so when SCOTUS heard the case, he recused himself. The court declared the order unconstitutional after first deciding that it had jurisdiction.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 was passed in direct response to the Supreme Court's ruling.

Perhaps the most troubling aspect of these events is the administration's reliance on the military orders of the Commander in Chief in conflict with the Constitution, civil and military laws and courts and international treaties in the name of emergency "war powers" in combination with an unprecedented new form of "war" that has no obvious end conditions and which the administration itself says could last decades or even generations.

The MCA and Habeas Corpus

In response to the Supreme court's decision, the Military Commissions Act was drawn up with much the same purpose as the military order that started this whole chain of events. Among other things, it allows a broader range of harsh interrogation methods that are permitted on, disallows the use of the Geneva Conventions by, and denies the right of habeas corpus to those found to be unlawful enemy combatants.

Several legislators, lawyers and other critics have suggested that while the MCA only explicitly denies habeas corpus to non-citizens, there is a catch 22 involved: If the government picks you up for being an unlawful enemy combatant or materially supporting a terrorist organization, and denies that you are a citizen, how do you challenge their jurisdiction and prove your citizenship? The normal mechanism would, of course, be a writ of habeas corpus, but you don't have access to that, given that they claim you are an alien unlawful enemy combatant.

Michael Dorf, a Professor of Law at Columbia provides a rather dispassionate criticism of the MCA in FindLaw's on-line journal Writ.  Keith Olbermann, in turn, made an impassioned indictment of it and the President as a Special Commentary on his show Countdown. Other criticisms can be found in the Wikipedia article on the MCA. The Wikipedia provides a good definition and history of habeas corpus, and FindLaw has the full text of the MCA.

After the election, with the Democrats taking control of the legislature, a number of Senators began to move to restore habeas corpus. Several of these, Senators Dodd, Menendez, Leahy, and Feingold, have introduced a new bill (S.576), the "Restoring the Constitution Act of 2007", which is intended to restore Habeas Corpus rights, bar evidence gained through torture or coercion and to reinstate U.S. adherence to the Geneva Conventions in order to protect the nation’s military personnel abroad. The text of the bill is not yet available, so comparing to the bills that never came to a vote in 2006 is not yet possible.

"Creating New Rights for Terrorists"?

One of the arguments that you often hear in defense of the MCA is that it doesn't violate anyone's rights because foreign enemies never had habeas corpus rights. This, as it turns out, is not actually true. During the War of 1812, in the case of United States v. Thomas Williams. Chief Justice Marshall ordered the release of an alien enemy, Thomas Williams, on a writ of habeas corpus. Williams had been held under the Alien Enemies Act, which is the only one of the Alien and Sedition Acts that has never been repealed. Thus, it is quite clear that enemy aliens during a time of declared war do have the right of habeas corpus, and so dismissing the possibility that detainees, whose unlawful combatant status has not yet been determined by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal, also have the right is just not warranted.

Remember, questions of the constitutionality of a law or ruling cannot actually be answered unless the Supreme Court has ruled on the issue. Up until they have, it is only a matter of opinion. But, in this case we do have the decision of Chief Justice John Marshall on what is clearly a highly related matter.

It is particularly difficult to credit the claim that the bills to restore habeas corpus that have been submitted since the MCA was passed are creating new rights for terrorists. Here is the pertinent language from Senator Dodd's 2006 bill:

"SEC. 9. RESTORATION OF HABEAS CORPUS FOR INDIVIDUALS DETAINED BY THE UNITED STATES.

(a) Restoration.--Subsection (e) of section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, as amended by section 7(a) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Public Law 109-366), is repealed."

It's hard to see how repealing the change made by the MCA involves creation of a new right and not the restoration it claims to be.

"No Express Grant of Habeas Corpus"?

An exchange between Attorney General Gonzales and Arlen Specter during Senate hearings on January 18th caused quite a controversy. As reported, the exchange went as follows, (a fuller transcript and video are available at Think Progress):

Specter: Where you have the Constitution having an explicit provision that the writ of habeas corpus cannot be suspended except for rebellion or invasion, and you have the Supreme Court saying that habeas corpus rights apply to Guantanamo detainees [... text elided]

Gonzales: A couple things, Senator. I believe that the Supreme Court case you’re referring to dealt only with the statutory right to habeas, not the constitutional right to habeas.

[further exchange elided]

Gonzales: "[...] there is no expressed grant of habeas in the Constitution; there’s a prohibition against taking it away,"

Specter: "Wait a minute... The Constitution says you can’t take it away except in case of rebellion or invasion. Doesn’t that mean you have the right of habeas corpus unless there’s a rebellion or invasion?"

Gonzales: "The Constitution doesn’t say every individual in the United States or citizen is hereby granted or assured the right of habeas corpus. It doesn’t say that. It simply says the right shall not be suspended except in cases of rebellion or invasion."

A Daily Kos diary suggested that Gonzales was correct, and at the time, it seemed to me that neoperiapt   might have a point. With time to consider it, however, I believe that at best the Attorney General is mistaken and at worst he was using rhetorical trickery in a deliberate attack on the fundamental freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution.

The key claim here, of course, is that "there is no expressed grant of habeas in the Constitution". And of course that's correct, but very misleading. The thing that you have to remember is that—and this is critical—the Constitution does not grant rights to the people. The constitution has no expressed grant of habeas corpus, because it has no grants whatsoever!

Perhaps the most important thing in the whole constitution is its first three words: "We, the People". The US Constitution is a groundbreaking document because unlike previous charters and constitutions, it derives its authority and power from the people, and not a grant from King or other "greater power". What makes it different is that in it the people grant the government certain powers. The most radical and important statement in the whole document is that "We, the People of the United States, ... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

This sentence and its wording are important. We not only establish the constitution and the government that it defines, we "ordain" it, which means "To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact", and carries the connotation of "invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders". English law, on the other hand originates with the granting of rights by the King who ruled either by divine right or by right of conquest. We in America, on the other hand, "hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights", and that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

So, when Attorney General Gonzalez says. "there is no expressed grant of habeas in the Constitution" he is telling the absolute truth, but his statement doesn't mean what it sounds like. It doesn't mean that there is no such right and it doesn't mean that the Constitution doesn't protect that right. When he says ""The Constitution doesn’t say every individual in the United States or citizen is hereby granted or assured the right of habeas corpus", it doesn't mean a thing. The Constitution doesn't grant or assure us the rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness either. It doesn't have to. It assumes them.

The key, meaningful claim that he makes in the controversial passage is "It simply says the right shall not be suspended except in cases of rebellion or invasion". And what that means is that when we, the people, created the government, specifically the legislature, as this is Article I, we ceded Congress the right to suspend habeas corpus only in certain specific circumstances. By mentioning the right (or privilege) and ceding the power to suspend it in certain circumstances we also assured ourselves that it could not be taken away in any other circumstances.

This brings us to the statements leading up to the Attorney General's claim, the ones that make me wonder about his motives. Senator Specter starts out by talking about  the Constitution the way it actually works. He speaks of the explicit provision that habeas may not be suspended. Gonzalez responds by drawing the distinction between the "constitutional right" and "statutory right" to habeas, and says that SCOTUS was dealing only with the "statutory right". Specter then responds that he is wrong that they deal with the "constitutional right", and then after they differ on that, which depends on Specter accepting the usage and concept of a "constitutional right", Gonzalez points out that there is no "express grant" of the "constitutional right". Please note that he was the one who introduced the term "constitutional right to habeas", which he now says the Constitution doesn't grant, and implies doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, why did he even speak about it?

And it gets worse... As I was searching the Internet for a transcript that included Specter's question, I came across the following on Jeff Strabone's blog:

Gonzales: I was just simply making an observation that there isn't an expressed grant. My understanding is that in the debate during the framing of the Constitution there was discussion as to whether or not there should be an expressed grant, and a decision was made not to do so. But what you see in the language is a compromise. I think the fact that in 1789, the Judiciary Act, that they passed statutory habeas for the first time, may reflect -- maybe -- I don't want to say a concern, but why pass a statutory right so soon after the Constitution? Perhaps, because it wasn't express grant of habeas.

Up until I read this, I might have believed that the whole bait and switch introduction of the "constitutional right of habeas" for which there was "no express grant" wasn't deliberate trickery, but  then he pulls this stunt! First of all, there was no suggestion that there should be an "express grant". The founders knew that the state doesn't grant rights to the people. What was proposed was that the passage should read as follows, based on the Massachusetts and New Hampshire constitutions:

The privileges and benefit of the writ of habeas corpus shall be enjoyed in this government in the most expeditious and ample manner: and shall not be suspended by the Legislature except upon the most urgent and pressing occasions, and for a limited time not exceeding _ months.

After about a week, this was changed to:

The privilege of the writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended; unless where in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

The original New England version did not attempt to grant a right. Rather it tried to insure that its implementation be full and timely and that any suspension have a specific time limit.

As to why the Judiciary Act was passed immediately, first off the Constitution ordained that there should be a federal judiciary, but it didn't define the details. The Act determined the number of Supreme Court justices, defined the federal district and circuit courts and defined their jurisdictions, powers and responsibilities. Until it was passed there were no actual courts. Thus it needed to be passed as soon as possible.

As to why it addressed habeas corpus, Chief Justice John Marshall explained that in Ex parte Bollman, the case which established Supreme Court's habeas corpus jurisdiction. First off, he points out that in a country with "courts which are created by written law ... the power to award the writ by any of the courts ... must be given by written law". To this he added the observation that,

It may be worthy of remark, that this act was passed by the first congress of the United States, sitting under a constitution which had declared "that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus should not be suspended, unless when, in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety might require it."

Acting under the immediate influence of this injunction, they must have felt, with peculiar force, the obligation of providing efficient means by which this great constitutional privilege should receive life and activity; for if the means be not in existence, the privilege itself would be lost, although no law for its suspension should be enacted. Under the impression of this obligation, they give, to all the courts, the power of awarding writs of habeas corpus.

It is hard to believe that the Attorney General is unaware of these facts. You could learn them easily from The Founders Constitution web site or FindLaws' Annotated Constitution, or even the Wikipedia, all using Google. For him to speculate the way he has, consigning the right to the Great Writ to the maybe/perhaps world of dubious rights never expressly granted is reprehensible.

We must not let Orwellian Double Speak and rhetorical trickery deceive us about our most fundamental rights.

Don't believe me. Inform yourself. Protect your freedom. Vote. Write your representatives. Inform your family and friends.

Tags: bill of rights, constitution, habeas corpus, liberty, military commissions act, Hamdan, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 24 comments

  •  Loud cheers and great rejoicing! (6+ / 0-)

    I was hoping somebody would post on this! Great job! THANK YOU.

    I knew there was legal reason to be bothered by what AG Gonzales said; but I am a secretary, not a Constitutional scholar, and I didn't have time to search it out.

    Love it, love it, love it.

    And bookmarked.

    •  There is a difference between right and privledge (0+ / 0-)

      We are endowed with rights. No government may legally take them from us. The writ of Habeaus Corpus is a privledge which may be suspended under certain conditions. The writ of Habeaus Corpus is ordained as a privledge in the Constitution and supported by statute.

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 03:02:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably our most important privilege (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rktect, quinque, kay dub, DanC, offgrid

        The great Writ is one of the very first privileges granted by the King to allow the people (well the ones who counted at the time, which is to say the nobles) to guarantee what one of our greatest rights, the right of (physical) liberty.

        We are endowed with the right not to be held captive by the powerful without reason. The Great Writ, habeas corpus, is the fundemental mechanism for protecting that right. It is the embodiment of the right to face King, Court or tyrant and say, "Prove that this man is not held unjustly".

        It is possible that the privilege of habeas corpus can be suspended, but under our Constitution the only "certain conditions" under which it can be done legally are in the event of invasion and rebellion. All other conditions are precluded by the Constitution.

        •  We have the Right to Life and Liberty (0+ / 0-)

          and the Pursuit of Happiness; not only that but any rights not reserved to the government are retained by We the People.

          Mechanisms for protection, grants of privledges, guarentees, are so far inferior to the basic power of the inallianable rights we are endowed with as to be meaningless.

          Furthermore we are all equals and thus have no nobels or elites. Today I watched Anthony Kennedy arguing to the Senate Judiciary committee that the judicial system needed to be able to raise salaries, rather than have them tied to those of the legislative branch, so as to attract competent administrators, and Senator Durbin suggesting that the attraction to public service should be the opportunity to serve rather than economic gain.

          I also heard Kennedy argue that the proceedings of the Supreme Court should not be televised so as to preserve the collegiate atmosphere among the justices and insisting that the Congress should defer to the courts wishes.

          My thought was that this was a very good argument for a maximum wage for lawyers set lower than that of legislators.

          Also, from what Kennedy argued which was that without higher wages the court couldn't get the job done, maybe what we should do is get rid of it and give the job to someone who could get it done.

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 03:33:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Uh... no... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            rktect, offgrid, Justus

            Without the mechanisms to protect ourt rights we lose them. You can rail and cry all you want that the big mean man shouldn't have thrown you in the dungeon, but if someone doesn't have the rule of law to force them to show why you are incarcertared you'll just stay ther.

            Voting is a privilege. One you can't keep without habeas corpus or something equally powerful. The Constitution is a mechanism, one that we the people instituted to guarantee our rights and the privileges that protect them.

            The mechanism of the Constitution, the law and the courts, the privileges of the vote, trial by jury and habeas corpus protect the sacred god-given rights that we are endowed with and did not cede to those in power.

            Without mechanisms, and privileges, our rights have no protections other than our guns, if they let us have them.

            •  You can never lose your rights, thats the point. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Spoc42, offgrid

              Its possible for your rights to be violated regardless of protection, but you still don't lose them.

              The law and the courts can actually be more of a threat to our rights than a protection of them.

              Thats why Gonzales and Yoo, the Heritage Foundation, the Federalist Society, the American Enterprise Institute, and the Project for a New American Century began their attack on our rights by trying to subvert the attitudes and values of the law schools and the lawyers and the judges.

              The Civil Rights Act protects voting rights as much more than a privledge. When Bush was selected president by a 5 to 4 majority of the Supreme Court
              and a bad decision in Bush vs Gore that may have trampled all over your right to vote, but it didn't take it away, we didn't lose it and we eventually  took back the Congress.

              You can't protect your rights except by exercising them. Thats why Freedom is so much more important than Security.

              Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

              by rktect on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 04:10:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  great presentation (0+ / 0-)

    If Congress had passed a Declaration of War (instead of just a Congressional Resolution) after 911, would habeas corpus rights still apply to individuals who would then (I guess) be called POWs?

    •  Most if not all would still not be POWs (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      offgrid, sandbox

      What theoretically makes the people being held under the MCA "enemy combatants" and not POWs is not the lack of a declared war, but the detainees failure to meet the requirements of a "lawful commbatant" under the Geneva Conventions or the Executive Branches interpretation of that.

      The treatment of POWs is pretty clearly specified in the Geneva Convention and conventional troops captured during armed conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq even with the current undeclared war fall under them today.

      What is at dispute is what happens to people who appear to be civilians and are alleged to be combatants captured, kidnapped or turned in by bounty hunters. This is moderately tricky.

      Hope that quicky answer helps. If you need a longer one, I tend to take a couple of days to write them, in order to do my research and not stick too many feet too deeply into my mouth.

      Good question

      •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

        My main concern re Habeas Corpus and the War on Terror is that someone may be picked up on the battlefield in Afghanastan, or wherever,  who is not an enemy combatant or aiding an enemy combatant.  In other words a case of mistaken identity--the individual is really a goat herder but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  On the other hand if someone is an al queda member, then that would be sufficient reason to hold them indefinitely, once we feel sure they are really al queda.

         

        •  And not just by accident (0+ / 0-)

          Some of the current detainees were turned in by bounty hunters rather than being captured during a direct conflict. Some were turned over to us by Afghani warlords with who we allied to kick out te Taliban. Not all of the warlords are men of unimpeachable character, and some might not be above turning their political enemies over to us, misrepresenting them.

          Given that we are engaged in a "War" that has no clearly defined enemy, local, time-frame, or even goal or end condition, we need to be careful in assuming that we know who our friends are, that that doesn't change, and so on.

          •  And weren't the bounties (0+ / 0-)

            a significant source of income for certain groups in Pakistan as well?  I've read a figure we're supposed to have paid out there, but I have a tendency to remember sums wrong, so I don't dare suggest one.

            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

            by DSPS owl on Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 10:18:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Habeas was first established by arms. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Spoc42, Justus

    It will be restored by arms if need be.

    •  That is my great fear (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      offgrid, bluedogtxn, Justus

      In my Diary yesterday, regarding the shift to government by men rather than laws, I suggested that we are concentrating power in one individual in a way that courts a shift from republic to Empire. If I am right on that, I see only three outcomes:

      1. We turn that trend around now at the ballot box.
      1. Our children live under a dictator as one will eventually arise.
      1. We "water the roots of the Tree of Liberty in blood of tyrants and patriots", as the saying goes.

      I do not want to see my children face either #2 or #3.

      Therefore, not merely must somebody do something about all of this, but i feel I have no choice but to work as hard as I can for #1.

  •  S.B. 576 is a great idea (0+ / 0-)

    but I doubt that it will become law while W. is President.  The MCA is his signature legislation and any attempt to undo it will almost certainly be vetoed and that veto will almost certainly not be overcome due to GOP and Blue Dog support.

    Absent court intervention, I don't see any recourse.

    Also, the amnesty give by the MCA to those who committed war crimes can probably not be undone.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

    by ohwilleke on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:56:26 PM PDT

    •  W/o a break in "party loyalty" you may be right (0+ / 0-)

      Sadly, you may be right. I'm a moderate independent who historically has voted nearly as often for Republicans as Democrats, and it didn't used to be that torture, warrantless searches, indefinite detention, spiraling debt, and spying on thepopulace didn't used to be Republican values, and I don't honestly believe that they are today.

      Rather, the Republican legislators are standing behind their man rather than up for their principles, and I sometimes fear that the Democrats are only standing against a man and not for their principles either.

      If the MCA is going to be reversed and many of the other harms to our freedom and Constitution rolled back, it will only be because we, the people, tell them that it is no longer acceptable to be governed by loyalty to a man, but by adherence to the law and principles. If that happens, I believe that a veto can be overturned. Americans, most Republicans, and most Democrats believe in freedom and the rule of law. They just don't know what is happening to them.

      •  The MCA passed with all or almost all GOP and (0+ / 0-)

        some Dems.  You can lose all the Dems and about a third of the GOP votes and still sustain a veto.  And, you only have to hold onto two-thirds of the GOP votes in the House or the Senate, not both.

        There are a lot of freshmen in Congress, but not that many.

        Also, the MCA only directly impacts habeas corpus rights for non-U.S. citizens.  While many Republicans have some belief in the rule of law, most believe that the rule of law is limited to U.S. citizens, and need not apply to even legal aliens.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 03:11:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well... sorta kinda, so long as you're lucky (0+ / 0-)

          The MCA is supposed to only apply to non-citizens, but it the President or his agents decide incorrectly that a citizen is an "enemy combatant", the normal recourse would be a writ of habeas corpus, requiring them to show that that is the case. The MCA appears to preclude that.

          So long as the President and his agents are never wrong, that isn't an issue, but that's one heck of a big "so long as..."

          As to the rule of law applying only to citizens that is not and never has been the case. See, for instance Chief Justice Marshall's release of an enemy alien on a writ of habeas corpus during the declared war of 1812.

          There are privileges that apply only to citizens, but fundamental rights are natural and endowed in our system, and the rule of law applies to all who find themselves in our legal system.

          •  I think that bona fide claims to U.S. citizenship (0+ / 0-)

            would probably get you in the door at the court house even under the MCA (which isn't to say you would win).  

            Notably, the MCA also does not affirm that anyone does have a habeas corpus right, and the administration's argument has been that it is not suspending habeas corpus, it is merely not affording it to people who aren't entitled to it.  I don't buy that argument, but that is their argument.  This legal theory is bad for U.S. citizens, but it isn't direclty a consequence of the MCA and repealing the MCA itself wouldn't solve that problem.

            I certainly don't think that habeas is confined to citizens or that it ever has been.  It is settled law in the criminal context, for example, that non-citizens have that right.  But, the politics are another matter.  Most Republicans and Blue Dogs don't give a shit about the rights of non-citizen, regardless of their source.  So, finding the votes to override would be very hard.

            "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

            by ohwilleke on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 03:59:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Pardopn? (0+ / 0-)

            So long as the President and his agents are never wrong

            When did that happen? I have seen no evidence that BushCo has not "never been wrong"; i.e., every decision they have made has been wrong!

            The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.

            by Spoc42 on Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 04:26:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary, VL (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Spoc42, DSPS owl, BentLiberal

    I think that the fact that the Declaration of Independence does not carry the force of law in our courts is one of the great oversights of the Founders.

    But of course, the Constitution was written a mere 11 years after the DoI, and by some of the same people. It was still very fresh in their minds and they probably didn't think that it was necessary to repeat the ideas.

    We in America, on the other hand, "hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights", and that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

    This is so often forgotten. I often try to correct people when they talk of "constitutional rights". They are "unalienable Rights", or in other words, Human Rights, granted by the fact that we are alive. They are not granted by government, but must be protected by government.

    You gave the clearest explanation of this point that I've seen.

    Thanks! I'll use this as fodder for the next argument I engage in on this issue.

    "If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy." -teacherken

    by offgrid on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:44:52 PM PDT

  •  The Future Has Arrived (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BentLiberal

    I guess the future turns out to be like those old science fiction novels where the government's gone crazy. Or a play by Stoppard. Maybe we can get the reader to put the book down!

    Our names shouted in a certain dawn . . . There must have been a moment, at the beginning, where we could have said--no. But somehow we missed it. (He looks round and sees he is alone.)

    Rosen--?

    Guil--?

  •  Just an Excellent Diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BentLiberal

    Thank you for researching and presenting that. It puts the whole argument in perspective.

    The problem with "rights" is that it's also something people feel intuitively. How you feel about it depends on your experience and how knowlegeable you are on the subject, so feelings vary widely.

    But, the Constitution was created and has been kept in many ways by people who were highly informed and had personal experience with the abuse of rights. That's one of the things, I think, that's made it such an excellent document.

    People have rights no matter what we might write down or think. The Constitution doesn't give rights, it protects them. So, for Gonzales to claim that they aren't "constitutional rights" because he can't find them defined in the document misses the point.

    The Nineth Amendment is there to remind people like him, but apparently it will take a thump on the head before he gets that "ah-ha!" moment.

  •  Excellent diary (0+ / 0-)

    The Constitutional make-over by Bush and company is just plain pathetic.

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 05:43:37 AM PDT

  •  Attention Comrade Vox (0+ / 0-)

    While you're co-sponsoring Senator Dodd's bill, don't forget about the Ministry of Love! We were protesting the MCA before it was all trendy...find us at http://ministryoflove.wordpresss.com
    We also have a fabulous video at http://www.youtube.com/...
    thanks,
    O'Brien

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