Daily Kos

Why We All Need To Store Food And Water

Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:26:43 AM PDT

A public service announcement from CDC

click to play video

What a funny concept at Daily Kos. Is this a Bushism "scaremonger" concept to increase funding for Homeland security? Is it a flyer from the Idaho Secession Society or the flying saucer cult-of-the week? Uh, no. It's a message from the AFL-CIO's NYSUT teacher's union (which also represents nurses). The message from the unions and the professional societies will resemble this (see link):

Start now so you have a week or two supply of water and food. Get a few items every time you go to the grocery store and buy food that is:

  • nonperishable
  • easy to prepare
  • requires little or no water so you can preserve water for drinking

And why? because the possibility of a flu pandemic is very real. As Greg Poland from the Mayo Clinic (and a world expert on the topic) writes in this month's issue of Vaccine (something we will not have enough of for 6-8 months):

"...the question we must all ask is: "do we believe that an influenza pandemic will occur?" The answer based on biology and history is a clear and compelling "Yes"! We absolutely will have another influenza pandemic. However, what we do not know is when, with what virus, how severe it will be, and perhaps most importantly, how prepared we will be when it occurs. In the last 88 years, three such influenza pandemics have occurred (1918, 1957, 1968).To those who find it difficult to believe that an influenza pandemic will occur, one would ask; "what makes this current generation so special that what has always happened throughout history - influenza pandemics - somehow will not occur?" The consequences of denying biologic reality are dire, [emphasis added] and well outlined in a recent book, The Great Influenza. The 1918 influenza pandemic is now estimated to have killed 50-100 million people . Although the 1957 and 1968 pandemics were much milder, killing an estimated 70,000 and 40,000 persons, respectively, they still overwhelmed the medical capacity to respond to them. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt stated that the virus that causes bird flu "could become one of the most terrible threats to life that this world has ever faced" (HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt, December 2005). This raises the question of whether we have been irrationally worried, or irrationally complacent. [emphasis added]

And, keep in mind Daily Kos is a community. We owe the community a discussion about this. So what to do...

This is actually something that's been talked about in depth here. AlphaGeek has an excellent series of disaster prep diaries from Daily Kos.

And at the Flu Wiki, we have collected information both for personal preparedness and for community preparedness. You'll find businesses and schools and colleges all are on the same page... much to do and more work to be done.

But here's where the on line community comes in. Many feel that if the schools close for up to 3 months, 2 weeks of food and water may not be sufficient. Can a case be made for more? while folks here might dismiss the whole thing, there are enormous efforts being made to plan for the worst in case such a thing happens. Poland, again, from the Vaccine article:

The H5N1 virus is close to meeting the criteria for a pandemic virus-a novel virus, the ability to cause human illness, and human-to-human transmission [13-15], and we are now in at least the third of the six WHO pandemic phases (Table 2). That we have not yet experienced pandemic H5N1 influenza relates to a singular issue-the inefficiency of human-to-human transmission. Once efficient and sustained human-to-human transmission occurs, and presuming even an approximation of the current 50% mortality from this virus, time may well be marked, by those surviving, as "before" and "after" the pandemic.

This is just one of many serious articles by serious students of influenza (here's another by virologist Robert Webster in the NEJM:

H5N1 Influenza — Continuing Evolution and Spread
Robert G. Webster, Ph.D., and Elena A. Govorkova, M.D., Ph.D.

Clearly, we must prepare for the possibility of an influenza pandemic. If H5N1 influenza achieves pandemic status in humans -- and we have no way to know whether it will -- the results could be catastrophic.

and here is an excellent summary from Donald McNeill in the IHT:

Bird flu's risk far from over, experts warn
Alarm over pandemic has faded, but scientists urge vigilance

Ain't that the truth. Flu in birds is now present near Moscow and in UK poultry. So, it's not just that screw-ups from Bernard Matthews might put virus into the environment. it's that natural hazards like flu pandemics happen.

Posters here have asked what they can do to prepare. The answer may well be coming from your employer or your union. And if you need more, there's always reliable sources you can turn to, from CDC to CIDRAP to Flu Wiki. The internet is the future, and we are the people that will put the "public" back into "public health".

Update [2007-2-19 8:29:17 by DemFromCT]::Now, remember this is a political site.

"As you all know, the threat of pandemic flu has not abated. It may have fallen briefly from the headlines, but the problem remains. Bird populations across Asia have been infected by the H5N1 strain of avian influenza and the virus has spread as far as Eastern Europe. Hundreds of people have died and it may be only a matter of time before the virus mutates and sustained human-to-human transmission occurs. If the virus is able to achieve this, millions of people may die worldwide, rivaling the Spanish Influenza outbreak in 1918-1919. The CDC estimates that a ‘medium-level pandemic’ could kill over 200,000 Americans and sicken one-third of the US population.

Who said it? Click to find out.

And who is going to need political support? People who think like him.

From NYSUT:


Tags: avian flu, H5N1, disaster preparedness (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 335 comments

  •  So much for (8+ / 0-)

    Peak oil. This H5N1 stuff is very alarming. Peak Oil is some what predictable, but who knows when this H5N1 virus will mutate to human-human? It will probably happen somewhere in Asia, where humans and birds live together in high density. Ramen noodles mmm mmm good.

    •  It can happen quickly (11+ / 0-)

      We spin the wheel of fortune every day... Anywhere birds and swine live closely together.  The swine immune system is a gateway to the human immune system.

      We've had three "flu-related" deaths of children here in Seattle over the past couple of weeks.

      www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

      by chuckvw on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:36:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah I am still wondering (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Xan, chuckvw

        how much more there is to that story.

        If we cannot elect this man, we don't deserve him.

        by lisastar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:07:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Global Swine Quarantine? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        susakinovember

        Anywhere birds and swine live closely together.  The swine immune system is a gateway to the human immune system.

        Food for thought: Doesn't this make a good argument in favor of a world-wide phaseout of swine as a food source?

        Break the link, reduce the risk...

        •  Actually, this supports factory farming (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Xan, dianem, MNPundit

          I don't think there is any contact between pigs and birds (or anything else living) in the standard American commercial pork operation. There is also minimal contact with humans, I would imagine. It sounds like those attempting to practice "sustainable agriculture" are the ones who have to worry about this.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:21:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, no thank you... (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            splashy, aitchdee, Winnie, esquimaux, BalkanID

            I live the organic way and refuse their antibiotics, hormones and whatever else they inject into the food we eat.  

          •  no, it supports good sanitation (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            carrieboberry, splashy, aitchdee, maryru

            You don't need factory farming or oligopolies to have good sanitation. In fact the case can be made that the huge numbers of animals crowded together in those operations is inherently conducive to contagious illness spreading through them like wildfire (and mutating as it goes).  

            Small farmers were able to produce a clean & safe food supply long before agribusiness took over.  All it takes is education about proper methods, and some common sense & effort to use them.  

            The close proximity of fowl & swine on small farms in Asia is a local condition not found in the US or Europe.  It is a factor of population density, and of agricultural practices that involve closed waste cycles that would otherwise be highly sustainable.  Clearly those practices are now found to be dangerous and need to be stopped, but that is no more an indictment of sustainable agriculture generally, than it is an indictment of Asian cultures on ethnic grounds.  

    •  Actually the Canadian gov't is running ads (24+ / 0-)

      right now on tv, all winter in fact. These ads are telling the public---> to protect your family in the event of any type of emergency, please put away three days worth of food and water.

      I discussed this with my elderly relatives who grew up in the 1930's. Their first thought was this: everyone must do this, everyone.

      First, I was struck by their quick acceptance of the idea, zero argument or resistance. Then, I realized, well they have experienced extreme lack during WWII and the dirty thirties.

      But, it was their immediate second thought that really brought home the message, to me, not them. My 90 yr old Uncle stressed the 'everyone must do this' by adding that 'if everyone did not, in the event of an emergency, there would be an even bigger problem with those who did not store anything targeting those who did.'

      He is exactly right. We really need to put pressure on our friends, family and immediate neighbours to store at least a three day supply. Otherwise, they may be on our doorstep in an emergency, either consuming our supplies or taking them by force. If eveyrone has even a minimal supply, then we can all co-operate and focus on other important things, such as taking care of sick or injured or other situations sure to arise.

      The Real News. Become a supporting member today. No ads, gov't or corporate funding.

      by Blackstar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:03:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  peak oil is either (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee, Winnie, GW Chimpzilla, willers

      just around the corner or already here, and we'll suffer the consequences whether or not we get hit with a pandemic.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:50:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  AIDS is killing people now (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Debby, pissedpatriot

      Not potentially in the future.  We should do more for the victims of that disease.

      •  how about (0+ / 0-)

        how about malaria. Malaria kills millions a year.  The flu if it hits will kill the poor, the old, the sick. I'd be more fraid of the media and this governments over reaction to the hype then the bug.

        Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

        by pissedpatriot on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 05:07:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Slow news month. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pissedpatriot

      They've been trotting this stale old story out for how many years now?  How many tens of people died from it this year?  It's all about the cable news networks (e.g. Fox Noise Channel) trying to get your eyeballs glued to their sponsors' shows.  That is all.  While I can think of many really good reasons to keep several weeks' supply of canned goods around, snowstorms and other weather-related emergencies heading the list, a pandemic that only exists in the feeble minds of cable TV news executives isn't on it.

      •  obviously you've read the link to the (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        splashy, aitchdee, bablhous, ladybug53, willers

        New England Journal article by webster that I posted, and looked at the videos by taubenberger and the other science experts in the field.

        You've also, no doubt read the Canadian opinions (they don't do Fox news).

        Pandemic is not too strong a word to describe what will eventually come our way. Bruce Erskine’s article in Wednesday’s edition of The Chronicle Herald underscored the importance of coming to grips with the possibility of what a pandemic will mean to your firm, and to prepare for it as soon as possible. Such preparations take time. If you wait until the pandemic hits it will be too late. Imagine suddenly having only half of your staff available to run the business for several months. Such limitations can easily run your business into the ground.

        But then, you knoew all that.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:17:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's pretty short-sighted. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        splashy

        So because you're tired of hearing about it, you believe the problem does not exist?

        If you kept getting tornado warnings, but one had never hit your area, would you call them "stale" and then assume tornadoes don't exist?

        I would rethink and read up about this before deciding that the possibility of you dying and America shutting down for 3 - 18 months is imaginary.

        •  Orange alerts. (0+ / 0-)

          It's not about people sounding a legitimate alarm.  It's about news channels manufacturing issues to talk about because they have to fill those 24 hours with something.  Bird flu fits the bill nicely.  It's scary, and they can just bring it up over and over again, next year and the year after that, until the last viewer tunes out.

          It's called 'crying wolf.'  When a real problem comes up, people won't listen because they've had the wool pulled over their eyes too many times.

    •  From what I have read.. (0+ / 0-)

      Correct me if I am wrong.  If the H5 changes to H1 it would be lethal...  The 1918 reconstruct has H1 as does the Swine flu.  H5 is the entry point for birds (genetic key on the surface of the lung cells), H1 is human/swine.  The N1 is the key for exit of the host cell.  N1 is compatable with human lung host cells for exit.

      It was a time of desperate need for heroes - any kind of heroes. "Twice Upon a Time"

      by doingbusinessas on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:04:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no (4+ / 0-)

        this H5N1 is unique, but in its own way it is as bad as the 1918 H1N1. The current circulating flu is a waaay distant cousin, an H1N1 that is not lethal.

        It's not a change from H5 to something else H; what's feared is a few point mutations within H5 that make it easier to latch on to human cells in the nose and upper airways.

        Now, we can always get hit with something unexpected that's not H5 at all, but that's why a pandemic of some sort is inevitable. Given enough time, another pandemic is 100% certain.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:22:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you Dem . . . (17+ / 0-)

    I had a strange feeling that doing this was important, but I didn't trust my intuition, as usual.

    So, add some food to the water I already have.

    BTW, does water in plastic jugs go bad?

    Should I use it and buy new water??

    •  yes (16+ / 0-)

      change it out every six months to a year

      James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

      by cookiebear on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:11:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where did you hear that? (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Xan, cookiebear, Winnie

        I understand that bottled water is fine so long as the container remains sealed. If the bottles leak, then you need to buy fresh.

        Consider--if the water is bottled in a clean environment, there is nothing alive in there to "go bad." It's just water.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:23:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Fine" is subjective (17+ / 0-)

          Sealed bottled water in glass should be okay indefinitely (i.e., for decades).

          Most bottled water is in plastic, and the issue there is not contamination from the outside, but rather leachates from the inexpensive plastic media.

          Phthalates are plastic softening agents which can and do get into the water contained in such bottles. These have a detectable taste and smell. If you leave the water sitting in said plastic media for more than a few months (especially if exposed to heat or strong light) the taste will become unpleasantly strong.

          Pthalates are not immediately dangerous to life and health, but you won't enjoy drinking or cooking with that water (and kids might refuse it). There is some question about whether pthalates might be yet another endocrine disruptor with long-term health consequences. Best to minimize exposure if you can.

          There are plastics which do not leach, but it can be difficult to find bulk bottled water in those, as they cost far more to manufacture. You would have to rebottle, and if you're doing that, might as well rebottle in glass instead.

          We maintain an emergency water store built around the cheap bulk water, and we simply restock it on a regular basis, removing the older bottles and using their contents before the water begins to taste bad.

        •  i don't remember (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Winnie

          it was some time in the last couple of years though - and i believe it pertained to water stored in plastic jugs

          James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

          by cookiebear on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:03:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What if it's frozen? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear, Blackstar

        Since we sent both starving sons off to college, we usually have 4 or 5 gallons in the upright freezer to keep the electical usage down.

        I never thought about needing to change it out.

        The truth always matters.

        by texasmom on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:42:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why? Water is water... n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear

        I don't see any reason why you need to change it.  Please explain the science behind the thought.

        •  If the water is sealed, it will keep (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cookiebear, aitchdee, ladybug53, BachFan

          But the cheap plastic 1 gallon jugs are not designed for long term storage. Yes, plastic in a landfill will take a very long time to break down, but a water container doesn't need to break down completely in order to breach the seal and leak. Be sure to store the water in single layers standing upright - even the weight of the water itself puts pressure on the container.  The stronger the container, the better it will keep, but you should plan on changing out water or at least checking it frequently. Even if it's stored properly, rodents can quickly destroy your water supply.

    •  I got sturdy plastic containers (7+ / 0-)

      and change the water (from the tap) once a year.  I found the bottled water springs leaks after a while.

      And yes, noodles are good - and so is pasta - but focus on food that does not need water to cook or eat and is long term nonperishable.  That is canned food.

      So, how long is canned food good for?  I am planning on 10 years, but I'm not sure the stuff will be edible after all that time.  But, I have had them five years and the fruit still takes okay.

      (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

      by dancewater on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:12:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  canned food (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Xan, ladybug53

        Most canned food is dated nowadays. I found this out when I stockpiled while living through Florida's hurricane season. It's probably good for a while after the date, but eat at your own risk!

      •  cook pasta in sauce (5+ / 0-)

        I have done this for years. You use more sauce, yes, but by cooking pasta in the sauce rather than in water and then adding sauce, your pasta is much more flavorful - like that leftover pasta flavor, because it absorbs the flavor of the sauce. I also usually add one can of diced tomatoes and one can of tomato sauce.

        "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

        by asimbagirl on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:57:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't like sauce. (0+ / 0-)

          I eat pasta after putting spices on it such as Mrs. Dash and Nature's Seasons, but never use sauce.

          There's something attractive about invincible ignorance... for the first 5 seconds.

          by MNPundit on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:34:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Cook with what? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ladybug53

          We have a propane tank, but it's for heating only. Other than that, we would be cooking with our gas grill or eating cold food. Don't assume that electricity and gas supplies will be uninterrupted.

          •  Hmm (0+ / 0-)

            Wood burns. Just sayin.

            - Its time we stopped dealing in words, and started Dealing in Lead.

            by walkingshark on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 04:44:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A few problems with wood (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Blackstar

              Unless you live in the woods, you are not going to find a lot of quick sources for wood fires. I actually do live in the woods, and have a supply of wood for a wood stove that is properly seasoned to burn. But I'm not planning on cooking my food over an open fire. In the summertime, it would be a potential disaster (California forests + dry summer = huge fire risk). In the winter, it would be a waste of wood that people could use for heating their homes in a crisis. I could cut down the big trees in my yard, but unseasoned wood doesn't burn very well.

              Regardless, in urban areas, there isn't enough wood and there aren't enough safe places to burn that wood, and I'm betting that if people started trying to cook over wood stoves in their fireplaces or in their back yards, the fire department would quickly be overwhelmed. n

              Besides - there are plenty of options for food that can be served cold.  You could live on canned beans, soup, veges.. a bit of spam thrown in for protein (I put in that last one as a joke - I've tasted Spam , and it isn't food).

              •  Time to get good at it then. (0+ / 0-)

                The Indians used open fires all year 'round. They carefully cleared areas and dug pits, usually lined with or ringed by stone. And they had water nearby in baskets.

                In the winter, if you're heating with wood, why wouldn't you cook over the same fire? This is what people have done since humankind was invented.

                Don't burn unseasoned wood. Be ready by stockpiling firewood so it's seasoned when you need it. But if you must, green wood will burn when the coals are hot enough to keep it going.

                In the olden days of yore before everyone had gas and electric stoves (GASP! 150 years ago!) everyone had wood or coal cook stoves, and most people had outside kitchens where they could cook in hot weather and not heat up the house.

                Have you not heard of barbecues? Chimineas? Hibachis? Do you really think people are such incredible morons that they can't cook with a barbecue or put some wood in a fireplace?

                Spam isn't food? It's funny, I was listening to old time radio on the drive home tonight (from picking up a nice 1920s woodburning cookstove, ironically) and the primary sponsor of the Burns & Allen show was Spam. They recommend serving it to unexpected company with some tomato slices and a scoop of cottage cheese.

                But to each his/her own. I'm vegetarian myself and have a lot of dried beans and rice put away. And garden pumpkins... and onions... and canned green beans... and green onions and cabbage and celery and broccoli and pak choi growing out there right now... I just got a huge bag of citrus from a sweet little old lady I visited today and I plan to make marmelade on Tuesday. I have 3 gallons of frozen chopped and peeled tomatoes in the freezer. Oh, I could go on and on...

                But frankly, when times get bad, I wouldn't turn up my nose at anything if it keeps me alive to take care of my family. Even Spam or a squirrel shot with my .22.

                •  You can't cook over a wood stove fire (0+ / 0-)

                  Any fire with open flames is very inefficient. Wood stoves nowadays are closed in systems that just let in enough oxygen to burn the wood and then scrub the smoke out before it pollutes the air. Fire pits, chimineas, and open pit barbecues are very inefficient.  You'd better have a lot of wood, because you're going to use it cooking your rice and beans. At least get some canned beans and instant rice.  Your freezer foods are great - but plan on using them fast. They'll melt a bit more every time you open the freezer to get something out.  You'd be better off preserving those tomatoes in canning jars. Cabbage can be preserved, as can green beans and pumpkins. Marmalade is wonderful - packed with Vitamin C.

                  I was joking about Spam not being food. I'm reasonably certain that it is generally recognized as safe. But Yuck. It's salt city. If you decide to use it as subsidence food, pack extra water.

                  •  Inefficient, sminefficient (0+ / 0-)

                    Please note I said wood COOK stoves, not woodstoves.

                    Who cares how "efficient" it is to cook over an open fire? If it's the difference between life and death, I say burn some wood and cook something. People can also share (gasp!) resources with neighbors, so if someone doesn't own a barbecue or know which end of a match to light, they can get together with other people to cook things over the same fire or to share meals like a potluck. Just like humans used to do once upon a time.

                    I also just purchased an antique wood burning COOK stove, which is designed for COOKING food. And as I am also a rural resident surrounded by about 3 million acres of national forest plus my own woodlot, wood is not a problem for me. We heat our house exclusively with wood right now, and it's not with one of those decorative foofoo pretend "woodstoves" you can't cook on. Ours gets quite hot on the top and can be used as a stovetop if the propane is out for some reason.

                    Your freezer foods are great - but plan on using them fast. They'll melt a bit more every time you open the freezer to get something out.  You'd be better off preserving those tomatoes in canning jars.

                    Really??? Frozen things melt??? I had no idea!!!!

                    /snark

                    They're in the freezer because I was going to can some spaghetti sauce this summer and never got around to it.

                    Perhaps you should learn more about someone (alsohere andhere) before you assume they're dumb as a post.

          •  Buy yourself a camp stove (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            splashy, aitchdee, willers, maryru

            and a few extra gas canisters. That is part of our emergency storage stash. We have a gas grill, but there's no guarantee it will work after an earthquake, and there's no guarantee a gas leak won't blow us all up if the gas does flow.

            A small camp stove on the other hand would be big enough to boil water or heat canned chili. Boiling water may also be necessary in the event of a catastrophe for other reasons (e.g. killing off buggies that have gotten into the water supply).

            The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

            by Omir the Storyteller on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 05:57:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'd rather not recommend that (0+ / 0-)

              People have a nasty tendency to set up camp stoves in their living room in a crisis. Not a good idea. It could work, if it were done outside, but I'd rather just store food that I could eat cold and safe water than have to rely on boiling my water for safety.

              •  We're talking about an emergency here (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                aitchdee

                and I would definitely recommend that people have a campstove and a couple of bottles of propane as part of their emergency plan.

                You can use them out on a porch, in an entrance way, or if need be, in the house with a window cracked open.  

                They can be used safely, and can be crucial to longer-term survival.

                •  People who think like you die every year (0+ / 0-)

                  Even in an emergency, there is no need for boiling water and cooking food if you have the right kind of provisions stored. And there certainly isn't any need to use fuels designed for outdoors in a house. You can't just crack a window and use propane indoors. You aren't even supposed to store propane indoors, much less use it there. As for "longer term survival"... there is no advantage to storing heavy fuel canisters over storing heavy jugs of water. There is no nutritional advantage eating freshly cooked food over nutritionally sound canned or freeze-dried food.

                  •  I used a camp stove for years (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    maryru

                    Cooking in my home because I was too poor to buy a regular stove. In an emergency, they can really come in handy.

                    You have to be very careful, though, to place it in a good place, light it properly, watch it carefully, and turn it off properly. A healthy respect for the fire is a good thing. Read the instructions, folks!

                    Just like using candles for lighting. Don't ever set a candle on something that can burn, or can overflow with melting wax. That is just asking for a house fire.

                    "A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

                    by splashy on Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 02:08:50 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The instructions say not to use it indoors (0+ / 0-)

                      You got lucky. A lot of people aren't so luckly. In a well ventilated room, you might be fine.  In a room that is tight, you may use the stove properly and still die. Not worth the risk, imo. There are plenty of options for food that can be eaten cold.

              •  Not a problem for us (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dianem, aitchdee

                We have a deck we can go out onto and enough smarts to do so. Also, like the man says, we're talking emergency here. I wouldn't want to use one every day, all day, but if the difference is between having clean, boiled water and a little bit of hot food to vary the monotonous diet, I'll go with the camp stove.

                The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

                by Omir the Storyteller on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 07:45:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Go solar (0+ / 0-)

              There are other alternatives to gas and wood, like solar ovens and cookers.

              Here's one site:

              http://www.solarcookers.org/...

              Best part: you can build your own.

              Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. --R. A. Heinlein

              by Sunfell on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:02:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  recycle everything (11+ / 0-)

      and you can keep water for cooking and washing that you do not drink.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:14:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Barrels are good too (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kdub, aitchdee, ladybug53, BachFan

        A couple of cheap plastic garbage cans --with wheels, handles and tight-fitting snap on lids-- can be had at WalMart or similar sources for very few bux. These can always be stuck under downspouts for water accumulation and storage. If you have lots you can fill them one at a time, put the lid on and wheel it out of the way then start filling another.

        Ideally you use this water for garden plants and washing. In a pinch if things go on long enough that the guaranteed-safe bottled water you stored is used up, this is your next best choice for consumption. Filter through a clean tightly-woven cloth at least; use a couple of drops of water purifying agent if available.

        For that matter such cans can serve as storage units for the food supplies listed above

        Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?

        by Xan on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:24:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I checked this out this winter when (8+ / 0-)

      the water main in front of my house broke and there was no water for three days.

      Two-liter pop bottles make a good container for additional water storage and cost nothing if you save them and fill them with water as you empty them. To economize many people are tempted to use empty milk jugs, but don't plan to store water in these for more than 3-4 months. They are bio-degradable and will break down within 6 months. Not only may you loose your water, but if they are stored near food or other items, they may damage them. Heavy containers should always be stored close to ground level and secured to prevent breakage or possible injury in the event of earthquake, etc. Be sure to store your water away from any harmful chemicals or objectionable smelling products.

      Culinary water (tap water) is what is usually stored for long term storage. If you have a clean, opaque container where the light cannot get through and your water is bacteria-free when you store it you probably don't need to treat it further. Under these conditions the water actually gets more pure as it is stored. However, for most of us there is no guarantee that our culinary water is bacteria-free and most of us prefer to treat our water in some way as a precaution as we store it. Several methods have traditionally been used to purify water for long term water storage:

      Two percent Tincture of Iodine -- To use this add 12 drops per gallon of water. Note: pregnant or nursing women or people with thyroid problems should not drink water with iodine.
      Chlorine Bleach -- Household bleach can also be used. This should contain a 5.25% solution of sodium hypochlorite without soap additives or phosphates. Use 1/8 teaspoon (about 5-8 drops) per gallon of water. Link for more info

      Of course, the city provided a water trailer with a tap for the neighbourhood to fill pails and take home. I bought 4 gallon jugs of water for a couple bucks each at the drugstore and used for cooking, drinking and filled my mop pail with water from the city's trailer to flush my toilet, just pour in and down she goes.

      This made me think tho'. What would happen if the city wasn't able to get a trailer full of water to my street? I would be in trouble, that is what. Even if I had stored water for drinking, what about a toilet? Seriously, shouldn't all neighbourhoods have an emergency outhouse which is locked unless there is an emergency?

      The Real News. Become a supporting member today. No ads, gov't or corporate funding.

      by Blackstar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:48:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly (10+ / 0-)

        What would happen if the city wasn't able to get a trailer full of water to my street? I would be in trouble, that is what.

        they trucked in water from FEMA here last month because of our ice storms --- but, 1. many people were unable to get to the distribution points, because they were iced in or their roads blocked by trees and electrical wires; and, 2. what happens if water doesn't get trucked in?

        i filled my bathtubs before the storm hit, which helped enormously with flushing toilets, etc.

        but that ran out after a few days and, after a week of no water and 2-3 days after the bathtub water had run out, it was nasty in here.

        i know of people who have 55 gallon drums of water stored these days - not a bad idea.

        and, if people are in a state with water laws which allow it, now isn't a bad time to revisit cisterns and rain barrels.

        James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

        by cookiebear on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:56:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why such focus on water? (5+ / 0-)

        I can understand that tap water might contain harmful bacteria--that's the theory behind our need for drinking water, right?  But we're talking about a flu pandemic, not the total destruction of our infrastructure.  So will someone enlighten me, why do we need to store enough water to flush our toilets if there's a flu pandemic?  As for the drinking water, at any given time, thousands and thousands of people are traveling in areas of the world where clean drinking water is nonexistent.  The solution is not to bring their own, the solution is to purify the water available.  REI offers a number of options.  Can someone help me out understanding this need to store water?

        •  I just did above... (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Xan, aitchdee, Winnie, ladybug53

          my situation was not a flu pandemic but a simple water main break. Three days without water was definitely a hardship. A water main break happens frequently in the frozen north where I live.

          However, there are power outages, severe weather as well as disease to consider. It is just prudent.

          In the old days - they had wells, outhouses, cisterns and rain barrels as mentioned above by cookiebear.

          In my neighbourhood for several miles in any direction there are zero wells, zero outhouses. I, and everyone else has only electricity-generated facilities. Period.

          The problem with a pandemic, if it ever happens, is simple. No one will want to go anywhere, not shopping, not to the local store or gas bar. Nowhere. People will be best advised by their own common sense to stay home until the bug has run its course. Seriously.

          The Real News. Become a supporting member today. No ads, gov't or corporate funding.

          by Blackstar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:13:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You did, but consider this (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Xan, splashy, Blackstar, ladybug53

            If (or when) a flu pandemic occurs, it is likely to happen during "flu season", right? When conditions are optimal for contagion to pass from person to person. That is usually during the winter to early spring, I believe. That being said...when do ice storms, hurricanes, etc usually happen? Same time, right?
            So... the possibility of needing to have your own water on hand increases because a flu epidemic may well happen concurently with natural weather "disasters", where pipes may be broken, etc...and the folks that would normally be at work to fix the breaks are instead hunkering down because they are either sick with flu, or afraid of contracting it and are staying at home either by choice or by public safety orders.
            At least, that's what my common sense tells me.

            Searching for corrupt, lobbyist loving John McCain?

            by Lisa Lockwood on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 02:49:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  purify is fine depending where you live (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Xan, aitchdee, alizard, ladybug53

          and a large collapsible storage device is useful for the laundry and washing part... not all the water is to drink. The electrical grid is not foolproof.

          See elsewhere about the water companies and their chlorine supplies and lack of redundant personnel.

          every part of the infrastructure is at risk, some parts more than others, if prep is not done.

          see U.S. National Infrastructure Advisory Council (NIAC), The Prioritization Of Critical Infrastructure For A Pandemic Outbreak, which is a large .pdf reviewing pretty much everything.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:14:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've read that plastic shopping bags (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          FresnoKossack

          should be used for poo, so as not to have to flush it and toilet, and lord knows I've got those.

          •  5-gallon plastic bucket and garbage bags... (6+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Xan, splashy, Winnie, ladybug53, willers, Dianna

            Take a 5-gallon plastic bucket, like you get laundry detergent in from Costco or Sam's Club, and put a trash bag inside it. Probably a 13-gallon one, not a big old yard waste bag. If you want to spend a few bucks, go to a camping store and get a toilet seat designed to fit over a 5-gallon plastic bucket. Use a disinfectant after you're done, and store the waste WELL AWAY from the house and garden/orchard, preferably in a large trash can double-lined with bags.

            •  That is disgusting (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Xan

              I would rather go outside and dig an outhouse.

              The Real News. Become a supporting member today. No ads, gov't or corporate funding.

              by Blackstar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:48:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  but not everyone has that option (6+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Xan, splashy, aitchdee, Winnie, rockhound, BachFan

                especially the sick and elderly.

                (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

                by dancewater on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 01:12:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Or apartment & condo dwellers... (8+ / 0-)

                  Particularly if you live in a multi-story building. If water and power is out, trotting down five flights of stairs to take a dump and five flights back up will get VERY old VERY quickly.

                  •  Which is why I am saying (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    nolalily, aitchdee

                    for such an urban dwelling society, we are not too bright. Every neighbourhood should have public outhouses and manually operated water pumps, under lock and key unless an emergency calls for them to be unlocked. Designate a local committee to have the keys and delegate maintenance, if any.

                    Watching Katrina unfold, this was the thing that bothered me the most. In a modern city such as New Orleans, without flush toilets and running water, any group of people were in serious danger of dehydration and poor sanitation. We all watched and heard about the stench at that civic centre where all those people were stuck for a week!

                    Imagine how much waste you produce in one day - then multiply that by your neighbourhood population and then your cities' population and picture a week's worth stored in plastic bags and pails and taken out and put exactly where?

                    The Real News. Become a supporting member today. No ads, gov't or corporate funding.

                    by Blackstar on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 06:51:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Depends on the emergency... (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Xan, splashy, Winnie, ladybug53

                If the emergency is a chemical or radioactive one where you are advised to shelter in place, you can't just trot outside, do your business, and go back in. And if it's the dead of winter, I doubt you want to go outside and take a dump.

                Also, most people don't know how to dig a proper slit trench or outhouse hole.

            •  Hey! I was just in Fresno today! (0+ / 0-)

              Finally back home -- it's over 2 hours from me, but we got a very nice wood cookstove so it was worth the drive, plus my son had a good time.

              But anyway, we are going to be using the humanure system in our new place, so no more water wasted on flushing poo, no more septic problems(greywater will go to the sheep pastures), and tons of nice fresh compost for the garden. (This is NOT "night soil" that makes people sick in China -- this has composted very hot for 2 years before use in the garden and is 100% free of anything icky).

              All you do is cover your business with green sawdust (when getting it started) or your own compost and dump it out once a week.

          •  plastic bags (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Xan, Winnie

            If you use them that way, be sure to check them for holes first!

        •  in the event of a pandemic (7+ / 0-)

          if a water main breaks, don't bet that a utility crew will be around immediately to fix it.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:53:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  if the pandemic hits enough people (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Xan, aitchdee, ladybug53

          the dept. of works folks that manage the water and power systems might not be showing up to work, either. for a small outbreak, this wouldn't be a problem, but if everyone goes into panic, lockdown or the hopital, there's a lot of complex systems that could break down.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:05:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's about infrastructure (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ladybug53

          It takes a lot of people to run the infrastructure that keeps our water and power running. In a pandemic, it's possible that enough people will be unable to work (or dead) that the infrastructure may collapse, at least temporarily, until replacements can be found.   At the very least resources would need to be focused on critical areas. It might be necessary to shut down some power plants so that available staff could operate plants near hospitals and in urban areas.

          As for purifying available water - you can do that, if you have the right materials. But bleach doesn't kill giardia, which is common in outdoor water and can cause weeks of diarrhea.  You will need both bleach and a good water filter, with plenty of extra filters. And it's slow. I've done it. It takes a while to filter even a small amount of water. You could boil the water to kill the giardia cysts, but cooking supplies might be limited. You don't need to store water to flush toilets. You can simply not flush, or you can dig a pit in the back yard.

          This isn't just about pandemics, though. Most areas of the U.S. are subject to some kind of disaster - earthquakes, tornadoes, massive winter storms.  If more people are prepared, then rescue resources can be focused on those who weren't.

    •  Oh please. Y2K all over again... (7+ / 0-)

      ...and don't forget your duct tape. Stuff like this really emphasizes how powerless we are as individuals and why we need competent, well-funded government agencies. Just as we cannot each have our own fire department or road repair crew following us everywhere, dealing with an epidemic/pandemic is something that cannot be done libertarian-style. My reaction to this is very much the same as my reaction to "duck and cover" back in grade school: it's a feel-good fairytale.

      We need an honest president with the best interests of the country at heart. We don't have one now.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:54:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]