Daily Kos

Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama

Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:16:52 PM PDT

In the past couple of days, there's been a verbal war of words between the campaigns of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama over the comments made by David Geffen, a media mogul in Los Angeles who held a fundraiser for Obama. What it essentially boils down to is this: the Clinton campaign has been waiting to take a shot at Obama, and they chose an idiotic issue to make their first move about. Clinton comes out looking quite thin-skinned, and Obama only gave one line to it the comment - one that makes sense to anyone who thinks about it:

"It's not clear to me why I'd be apologizing for someone else's remark"

As pontificator put it yesterday, Obama appears to have quite the rapid response team.

That being said, I was quite surprised to read what essentially amounted to grudge posts from both Markos and Jerome Armstrong that brought up Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs' past affiliation with a 527 called Americans for Health Care, Jobs, and Progressive Values. In truth, it was nothing more than a group that set up a vicious one-time hit job on Howard Dean with the infamous Osama bin Laden ad. Gibbs was the group's spokesperson during its short existence. While I can well understand why this would be offputting, the conclusions drawn from these posts are inexplicable. First, here's Markos:

Obama clearly dipped into the slimiest corners of DC to pluck out Gibbs.

Politics is dirty business, indeed. And there’s no doubt that Obama’s rapid response has been stellar.

But one can’t help but get a little cynical hearing Obama talk about "changing the tone" and all that bullshit, while hiring a well-known smear-meister best known for his work trashing other Democrats.

First, this is ridiculous. Gibbs is not a 'well-known smear-meister'. I don't remember hearing anything about Robert Gibbs during the 2004 primaries. And I think it's fairly obvious that Kos didn't, either. If so, why did he wait until the controversy between the Clinton and Obama campaigns erupted? Gibbs has been working with Obama since he won the Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate seat in 2004. The fact of the matter is, there was plenty of time when Kos could have brought up Gibbs' past association between then and now. But it apparently was only opportune to do so now.

The next point is Kos' implication that Obama is a hypocrite for campaigning on 'changing the tone' while having a rapid response team that hits back. I can't honestly believe that such a claim can be supported in good faith. In politics, if a campaign doesn't hit back against ridiculous charges leveled at the candidate, it will only serve to embolden the opponent. We saw it happen with John Kerry's inability to adequately confront the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. More recently, we saw it happen with John Edwards' bungled response to 'Bloggergate'. Time is precious in politics, and hitting back aggressively at the kind of challenge that Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson was required. To refresh, let's see what Wolfson had to say:

"While Sen. Obama was denouncing slash and burn politics yesterday, his campaign's finance chair was viciously and personally attacking Sen. Clinton and her husband," Wolfson said in a written statement released by the Clinton campaign. "If Sen. Obama is indeed sincere about his repeated claims to change the tone of our politics, he should immediately denounce these remarks, remove Mr. Geffen from his campaign and return his money.

"While Democrats should engage in a vigorous debate on the issues, there is no place in our party or our politics for the kind of personal insults made by Sen. Obama's principal fundraiser," Wolfson added.

It's absurd to believe that Obama should return Geffen's money. If he were responsible for the negative things that people that have donated money to his campaign say about others, he'd be penniless. But not responding - or simply dismissing the claim - would be a disaster. By taking the heat that Wolfson directed and turning it back with even greater precision, Gibbs turned what could have been a protracted media battle and ended it right away - and decisively. It's hard to believe that we argue for Democrats to fight back against outrageous claims made by others - whether they be made by Democrats or Republicans - but then get all worked up when one of our candidates happens to do just that.

And lastly, I can't help but find it ironic when Kos finds this 'cynical', yet labels Obama's rhetoric '"changing the tone" and all that bullshit'. As far as I know, this isn't bullshit.

-----

I'd like to turn to Jerome's screed against Gibbs, which he concludes in this fashion:

Aside from the use of Republican talking points over the Lincoln bedroom, the real Gibblie here is that he's having Obama's campaign criticize Clinton for saying: "Senator Ford has apologized, and I appreciate him doing so".

I don't really care about the back and forth here between the Clinton and Obama camps, but is Gibbs that lame, or does he think we are that stupid?

Tough choice.

What a joke.

If Gibbs is gonna be the voice of Obama, then what I want to know is whether Gibbs has renounced his past association with the anti-Dean ad that Joe Trippi called the "the kind of fearmongering attack we've come to expect from Republicans," one that "panders to the worst in voters." Mistake?

And does Gibbs still believe that a Presidential candidate with "no military or foreign policy experience" is "unqualified"? Then how Gibbs, is Barack Obama going compete with John McCain on foreign policy.  Howard Dean was right on Iraq too, ya know.

Everytime I see Gibbs as Obama's campaign voice, I get further and further from seeing Obama as a candidate that is strategically smart, different, or an effective transformative leader. I really don't know what Obama is building. Sometimes I get the sense that he believes he can start the progressive online movement all over again, this time in his camp. I can tell though that whatever the Obama camp is building, his spokesman is not our partner.

Gibbs' remark about using GOP talking points about the Lincoln Bedroom is ridiculous. First of all, it's probably true that he did stay at the White House, but that's not the point of the remark. If it was, I would think Geffen would be offended that the campaign he was ostensibly supporting was insulting him. Bringing up the Lincoln Bedroom served to illustrate just how close he used to be with the Clintons. And given that Geffen had been one of the staunchest supporters of Bill Clinton during his presidency, I think it's a valid - albeit added with unnecessary emphasis - point to raise.

Armstrong's last paragraph is...well, it's very narrow-minded, I believe. Obama is acting in a strategically smart manner to date. He's drawing unprecedented crowds at a very early stage in the campaign. He's a different kind of candidate as well. He is an inspiration to millions around the country, particularly the youth vote of America that the Democratic Party has shamefully neglected throughout the years. When he speaks, people don't get a sense that he's a politician. And sure, Bush spoke about 'changing the tone' in Washington. But before he began the campaign, it was no secret that he was dumber than a bag of hammers and full of shit, as illustrated by his filthy 2000 primary campaign. And as for being an effective transformative leader (something Trippi has liked to speak about when he drops by MyDD) - is there really any other candidate who matches Obama's potential? Only John Edwards has a shot at coming close. The most transformative figure on the Democratic Party in this decade has been Howard Dean - and he lost the race that spurred that change.

I respect both Markos and Jerome greatly for the work they've done in the blogosphere to date. The fact of the matter is, though, they got this one dead wrong. Additionally, I think it's kind of ridiculous that they choose to highlight Gibbs' past association to an anti-Dean group when he's been working with Obama for almost 3 years. If this was such a burning issue, perhaps it should have been brought up in 2004, when Kos declared Barack Obama to be "The Patron Saint of Daily Kos".

Personally, it'd be wiser to go after Wolfson, who was 'lent out' during the 2006 elections. After all, if he had gone after Joe Lieberman with the kind of viciousness he took after David Geffen, maybe Ned Lamont would have had a better shot at winning.

(also cross-posted at MyDD)

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Robert Gibbs, Howard Dean, 2004 elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 93 comments

    •  I think Obama's response (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      faithfull

      was very good.   Geffen's points were even better - exposing all the flaws in Hillary's "electability" argument.

      However, the one point that is hard to ignore is it is  impossible to have the rapid slam em team and talk about " a different kind of politics"..

      so that' Obama's decision

      Why do Murdoch and David Brooks like Hillary?

      by inevitibility on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:23:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As long as Obama's campaign doesn't run any (5+ / 0-)

        negative ads or make negative remarks about the other candidates, it is (since Geffen doesn't seem to be on the campaign team or anything).

        David Geffen aside, Obama may want a different kind of politics, but he knows that's not going to stop, for instance, Insight mag from claiming that he's a Muslim.

      •  The candidate is not the rapid response team (4+ / 0-)

        I wish that all campaigns could be all positive. That'd be great, and it's nice that Bill Richardson wants it, but everyone knows that it's not possible.

        And honestly, this isn't going to affect Obama's image. I've cruised the Facebook group that has hundreds of thousands of supporters for Obama, and they placed the blame for this dumb incident squarely on the Clinton team. If anything, they will feel compelled to defend their inspiration from the kind of spurious BS that will get put out.

        "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire

        by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:28:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is the Clinton's technique (2+ / 0-)

          Obama is responsible  for Gibbs
          Hillary for Wolfson
          and Edwards for Jennifer Palmeiri (she's vicious - not)

          Obama can't claim his spokesman doesn't speak for him..

          that's how the clinton's do it and Tweety called wolfson out on that last night

          Why do Murdoch and David Brooks like Hillary?

          by inevitibility on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:31:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The point is... (4+ / 0-)

            If you want the rapid response team to be upbeat and optimistic and not address any bullshit claims in the manner they deserve, it will get us nowhere. That's not difficult to see.

            "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire

            by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:35:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nobody's talking about response... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              reef the dog, pletzs

              ...rapid or otherwise.

              The problem with Gibbs is that the hit on Dean was an irresponsible, unprovoked ATTACK.

              I think Markos et al are in favor of aggressive and smart response teams. But they are opposed to lying, melodramatic, character assassinations, by old school DC hacks.

              I don't transfer the repulsion I hold for people like Gibbs to their candidates, but it doesn't help either. I've been a leaner in this campaign ever since Feingold bowed out. Now I'm leaning a little more toward Edwards.
              .

              • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

              by KingOneEye on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:54:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                Because he hasn't gotten caught up in the tit-for-tat of campaign season yet?  

                Thats what happens when you are third.

                Here's Edwards himself attacking Dean:

                MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Despite being credited with breathing life into his presidential bid by pushing positive themes, Sen. John Edwards' campaign circulated a confidential briefing book earlier this month that instructed supporters on how to attack his Democratic rivals during the Iowa caucuses.

                The nearly 50-page document, of which CNN obtained 10 pages, tells his campaign captains in Iowa precincts to describe former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean as an "elitist from Park Avenue in New York City."

                Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

                by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:51:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I guess they are destined to bash each other... (0+ / 0-)

        for another 11 months.  Then they'll apologize and be best friends.  Politics really turn me off when it goes like this.

      •  I Think Obama's Response Was Good.... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DelRPCV, Catte Nappe, applegal, Albatross

        ....and he's coming out of this looking like someone who won't back down from a fight when challenged, and he wasn't responsible for the comments that appeared in the MoDo column.

        However, David Geffen is an asshole. What he said could have come from the lips of Sean Hannity. It the type of character assassination I couldn't stand during the 90s, and I don't like it now.

      •  Engaging in "a different kind of politics" (5+ / 0-)

        doesn't mean you can't respond to mud pies thrown in your face. In fact it means that you have to knock down the dirt immediately---pinch it off in the bud so lies don't flourish.
         And Obama was right on when he said he does not need to apologize for something a supporter said.  He would have to hire platoons of responders if they had to answer for everything any supporter says.
         They aren't launching the attacks.  But it is imperative to respond quickly and forcefully to made up charges against him.
         Obama's still good.  
           

        •  Fact is, HRC and her team needn't have (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DelRPCV, jj32, faithfull, dotster

          said a thing were Obama not raiding her bank and taking her spotlight and winning VIP primaries.  She's in trouble for her Iraq equivocating, and should be in trouble, and was going to be in trouble anyway.  In trouble, she has an right to take on her challenger, and Obama now has the same right to deflect her challenge, build his message, and act like a front-runner.

          I think Obama comes out of this week looking like a candidate instead of a myth, and the organization he is displaying in rapid response (and image management, and network building, and in the Senate with his Iraq bill) indicates to me he's got the chops to handle this campaign and the presidency.  Early days yet, but good on 'im.

          Let's see how Hillary plays offense.  She went three-and-out this week, imo.

      •  Different doesn't = soft. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DelRPCV, snout

        Geffen's comments were ... "trollish" in the same way that some people here go over the top and around the bend when criticizing their candidate's rivals.

        What's different isn't that Obama somehow aspires to be perfect.  That's Bush's fantasy land.

        It's that he wants people who disagree to value our on-going relationships.  Just like when you disagree with a sibling, spouse, coworker, neighbor, over the long-haul, you need to keep things in perspective, avoid burning bridges, and continue reaching out in the future even as their are points of tension.

        The real test of Obama's effort is not whether there are harsh exchanges but whether or not the positive, prosocial behaviors continue.

        That's the difference, by the way, between demonization and more ways of handling disagreement.  People who demonize lose the positive or the potential for good and retain only the negative.  That's something that only reveals itself over time, not in a news cycle or a quote.

  •  Check out some of the other folks... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcfly

    who are "Who's Next" on the Newsweek cover link for "The Patron Saint of Daily Kos"...

    Politics:  Rick Santorum

    Not!  LOL

    "President Obama will be the most liberal President of our lifetime."

    by rashomon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:26:34 PM PDT

  •  Great diary (13+ / 0-)

    I had no idea that Gibbs had been working for Obama for that length of time. Thanks for a true value added diary.

    For my personal impressions after meeting Senator Obama in Los Angeles, see Breakfast with Obams in Beverly Hills

    And remember, it's Maureen Dowd who really got this going, with another one of her cynical, nasty columns that turns our campaign into celebrity infotainment.

  •  Dude (0+ / 0-)

    It would be better to go after Wingnuts and not worry about the intrensic bullshit.  

    I really enjoy your writing and I want you to know I just (sorta) disagree.

    I'm not saying that I disagree with your diary.  I'm just mentioning that I disagree with the tone.

    Who is causing our country to be compromised?

    Where is the vitriol of hate coming from?

    Why do Progressives care enough to talk about issues instead of walking in lockstep like zombies without thought?

    We know the answer.

    Let's change the answer together.

    Another day, another devalued Dollar. -6.00, -6.21

    by funluvn1 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:31:37 PM PDT

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      faithfull

      Let's change it - together.

      My point with this diary is that Kos and Jerome brought up Gibbs' past association with the anti-Dean 527 and used, IMO, logic that doesn't make sense to take a jab at Obama. I would much rather that we focus on more important issues at hand.

      "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire

      by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:34:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You miss the fact that is not important (0+ / 0-)

        You feel they are harshing your candidate.

        Maybe they are.

        Unimportant, ok?

        GO AFTER THE WINGNUTS, Psi.

        That is the scourge of our lovely country.  

        Peace dude

        Another day, another devalued Dollar. -6.00, -6.21

        by funluvn1 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:36:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well what is Obama supposed to do .. (0+ / 0-)

          when HRC is attacking him? ...  you just know it's coming .. after all .. do you really thing HRC is gonna go down with out a fight?

          John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion

          by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:45:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  huh (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DelRPCV, faithfull

          psi didn't go after anyone other than Kos and Jerome.  

          If you want people to focus on the wingnuts, talk to Kos and Jerome on this one.  

          They brought up an old issue and made something of it.  About a democrat.  

          •  I don't care who Kos and Jerome go after. (0+ / 0-)

            I care about who Progressives go after.

            Think about it.

            Another day, another devalued Dollar. -6.00, -6.21

            by funluvn1 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:51:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DelRPCV, xndem, faithfull

              I've thought about it. kos and jerome have a whole lot more bandwidth than our boy Psi.  They attacked a democrat not for what he did, but for who worked for him.  Sorta like what Hillary just did, except she, or course, lied and said Geffen worked for Obama.  

              I'm tempted to quote Obama's speech from before the war, but i'm sure you are familiar with it.  And we don't want to sully our debate with the big issues.  

              You want to attack obama because of who he has hired, instead of what he had done and i'm gonna ask, are you much better than the wingnut who attacked Edwards for hiring a blogger who didn't conform?  

  •  The charge of hypocrisy (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    danmac

    is pretty substantiated.  Obama has made some good hay out of claiming to be for a brand of Politics that doesn't rely on smearing your opponent.

    No.  Obama did not call the Clintons liars.  Geffen did.  But while I don't want Obama to apologize for Geffen's remark, it would be appropriate for Obama to say he strongly disagrees with Geffen's accusations.

    Back when he was travelling with Bill Clinton after Katrina, Obama certainly didn't seem to mind a little of the Clinton brand rubbing off on Obama.

    Anyway, it was appropriate for Clinton to put the kibosh on Ford's equally inappropriate comments, and she did so.

    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 04:33:23 PM PDT

    •  really (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      faithfull

      when she thanked him for his support?

      •  I'm not saying Obama can't thank (0+ / 0-)

        Geffen for his support after Obama makes it crystal clear he thinks Geffen is wrong.

        "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

        by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:09:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Geffen isn't wrong (4+ / 1-)

          Recommended by:
          jj32, faithfull, LV Pol Girl, dotster
          Hidden by:
          Caldonia

          he is just telling the truth about hillary.  

          Who do you think knows hillary and bill better, you or him?

          •  You mean the guy who's still holding (0+ / 0-)

            a grudge about a Pardon he thought he'd get for a friend of his from Bill?

            Yeah.  There's a guy with no axe to grind if ever there was one.

            To answer the question:  me.

            "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

            by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:30:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  really edgar? (0+ / 0-)

              so you've spent more time with the clintons the geffen?  Raised $18 million for them?

              If not, you are delusional fool.  Which will make you no different from most Hillary voters.

              •  I don't have any motivation to (0+ / 0-)

                slander the Clintons.

                Geffen does.  So.  Yeah.  Me.

                "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:33:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  but you still (0+ / 0-)

                  think you know them better than him.

                  you are a sucker.   They have groveled before him in the past.   You, not so much.

                  •  And now (0+ / 0-)

                    Obama grovels.

                    You think any chance Geffen will get the Pardons he wants from Obama?

                    Maybe so.

                    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 06:26:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yeah (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      faithfull

                      hillary is the one how needs a pardon.  for voting for a war that has killed a bunch of innocent people and made us less safe.  

                      But she wont' ask for it.  

                      blood on the hands.  

                      •  You and Hannity (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        dannyinla

                        think the Clintons took us to war in Iraq.

                        "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                        by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:29:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  sucker (0+ / 0-)

                          yup.  bill clinton is the second coming of jesus and is a pacifist.  

                          People like me who criticize him are worse than george bush to people like you.  And the war machine rolls on.  And hillary wants to keep all options on the table.

                          i'm against the wars.  not sure about people like you, hillary and hannity think about war other than its "an option".

                          enjoy.  being misled.  i'll wait for you to be "strong" admitting you never knew that Iran didn't actually have plans to nuke every american city next week.  Will you feel bad when you supported the killing of a half million iranians.  Worse than when you supported the killing of all the Iraqis and Afgahnis?  

                          peace

                          •  Great (0+ / 0-)

                            If Bush bombs Iran, you'll blame me!

                            "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                            by Edgar08 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:55:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  nope (0+ / 0-)

                              i blame you for being a sucker. nothing more.  

                              perhaps you should read up on bill clinton.  People said he is one of the type of liars who is so good he actually believes what he is saying even when it is a lie.  

                              Wake up.  Remember when he ran for office and they did all the lying about jennifer flowers.  

                              Regardless of whether you think Bill is the best person in the world, Hillary can't be trusted.  She knows some young girl gave her husband a blowjob at the office and yet she still stands by him.   That is the epitome of not having a spine or standing up for your values.   perhaps you embrace that shit.  you don't share my values.  

                              they lie.  if you cant' realize that.  You are lying to yourself.   Like most americans.

                    •  And what about Denise's ex-husband Marc? (0+ / 0-)

                      Denise Green gave $$$ to the Clintons and her ex-husband got pardoned. Marc Green, the fugitive who evaded taxes and illegally traded with Iran. He did not serve a day for his crimes! Well, Denise Green was a big contributor to the Clintons and that is why her ex-husband and the father of her children got pardoned. I am sure he would have pardoned Geffen’s choice if he had enough capital with the FBI.

                      The Clintons are sleazy and when people point this out they scream bloody murder. Remember, Hillary’s pathetic fat brothers who mooched off her and the tax payers by living in the White House? One of them was married to Sen. Boxer’s daughter and he lived with her in the White House since his unemployed ass could not afford an apartment. Good thing that Barbara Boxer’s daughter came to her senses and left that Rodham loser.

                      The Clinton's are low rent and their disgusting baggage gave this country President Bush.

                      "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos." - Jim Hightower

                      by Hanna for Change on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 07:34:29 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Obama GROVELS? (0+ / 0-)

                      False.

                      Obama responded to a fight that Hillary tried to pick with her fake outrage and attack mentality.

                      She asked for a fight and she got embarassed.

                      Obama hasn't groveled once. And it is completely out of order to imply that he did.

                      Hillary should apologize.

                      Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

                      by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:36:25 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Also (0+ / 0-)

            I'm sure we don't have to do an extensive compare contrast between Geffen's tirade and random tidbits from Mr. Limbaugh.

            Just in case you have a thing against people using Right Wing Talking Points to bring down other Dems.

            If not, Geffen's your Man!!!!

            "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

            by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:33:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Geffen doesn't speak for him (0+ / 0-)

          Obama shouldnt set the precedent of apologizing for everything one of his supporters says.

          Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

          by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:33:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I Think (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kpardue, Catte Nappe, onemadson, faithfull

    That I have a little in common with Kos, that's probably why he annoys me so much. My rankings and his for the candidates were identical in the top four, and my ranking for Kucinich based on the likelihood of long-run protest primary votes going to him should Hillary's lead hold.

    1. Clinton
    1. Obama
    1. Edwards
    1. Richardson
    1. Kucinich
    1. Dodd
    1. Biden

    What I mean to point out is that there is no certainty for a minority of us here (it seems) about who to support, and I think Kos is really in that category, while I think I am as well. Kos likes Obama, but has some misgivings he expresses as is natural.

    Personally I think that Obama would be a fool not to hire the toughest henchmen he can, but would also be a fool to completely staff with such, or unleash them arbitrarily. So far, Obama is right on track, first class. Classy enough, but showing that the teeth of his campaign are for more than smiling. We'll see though if he didn't alert the Hillary people too early to the strength of his hand, though.

  •  Daily Howler (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Aeolus, dannyinla

    Bob Sommerby daily reminds us that democrats and democratic candidates should spend their time and effort focusing on issues and fight any attempts to swiftboat or gore our candidates.I'm supporting Obama but would like him to read this and act on it.
    OBAMA, MAN OF THE 90's: Good God! We’ve been seeing Obama described as "The Change!" But how seductive are the themes of the 90's—the nasty themes dreamed up by the RNC’s gang of thugs and dissemblers? Yesterday, a dazzling young Democrat vouched for an iconic old RNC charge:

       OBAMA CAMPAIGN (2/21/07): We aren’t going to get in the middle of a disagreement between the Clintons and someone who was once one of their biggest supporters. It is ironic that the Clintons had no problem with David Geffen when was raising them $18 million and sleeping at their invitation in the Lincoln Bedroom.

    Good God! That came from Robert Gibbs, of Obama’s campaign. The idiot Dowd had cited the Lincoln, three separate times, in her column about Geffen’s comments. Now, Obama—and truly, his book is just dazzling—was pimping this stale bullsh*t too.

    In many ways, the Lincoln Bedroom was the 1990’s prime pseudo-scandal. We spent a lot of time on the Bedroom too; it was the second major topic which led us to start up THE HOWLER. And what did we find when we worked on this story? Fairly ordinary political behavior by the Clintons—and bald-faced lying by the Washington press corps! People! Who were the 90s’ Biggest Liars! You’ll never hear it from Arianna. But the Biggest Liars were the pundits themselves—and Arianna keeps pimping their tales.

    By the time we got THE HOWLER started, Miss Lewinsky had replaced the Lincoln Bedroom. We finally posted the facts in 2005, when USA Today’s Judy Keen reported an intriguing story (see THE DAILY HOWLER, 5/16/05). Keen’s story? The pattern of Bush’s overnight guests was much like that which obtained with the Clintons! But you know the rules! (Or maybe you don’t.) In the 1990s, this story was beaten within an inch of its life—when the target was the vile Clintons. When it tuned out that Bush had a similar pattern, no pundit said two words about it.

    But so it has gone, throughout an era which sold you on Bill Clinton’s "lies."

    Today, we strongly advise you to click that link to May 05, and read about this prime pseudo-scandal. Again, here’s what you’ll be reading about: Fairly routine political conduct—and outright misconduct on the part of the press corps! But that was the shape of the 1990's—although many of our fiery "progressives" still don’t seem to know it.

  •  The Obama camp's rejoinder (9+ / 0-)

    could have been better calibrated, without the reference to the Lincoln Bedroom, but if Obama hadn't responded forcefully, the meme coming out of all this would have been, "If Obama isn't strong enough to stand up to Hillary Clinton, how will he be able to withstand the GOP slime machine in 2008?"

    So, as an Obama supporter, I'm fine with it. Obama didn't throw the first punch, he responded in self defense. In fact, if he hadn't answered this attack forcefully, I would have been disappointed in him. As long as Obama doesn't initiate negative attacks, he can campaign on a platform of "change in Washington" without contradictions.

  •  As much as I dislike Margaret Carlson (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kpardue, dotster

    She mentions something (at HuffPost) that might have raised HRC's ire:

    Geffen's sin was to hold a fund-raiser for Obama a few days before supermarket owner Ron Burkle was to throw one for Clinton, forcing the California billionaires to take sides.

    •  That's what this whole thing is about IMO (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LV Pol Girl, dotster

      Hillary is upset that Hollywood wont line up lock step behind her.

    •  Can I ask why you dislike Carlson? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dannyinla, 417els

      Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

      by tigercourse on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:23:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because she plays us all for fools (0+ / 0-)

        I dislike her for the same reason I dislike a great deal of the millionaire punidts.

        But here's the main reason. On Imus in the Morning on October 10, 2000, MC gave an interview in which she explained, or revealed, why she and her ilk hammered Al Gore on a daily basis while giving George W. Bush a pass during the 2000 election:

        CARLSON (10/10/00): Gore’s fabrications may be inconsequential—I mean, they’re about his life. Bush’s fabrications are about our life, and what he’s going to do. Bush’s should matter more but they don’t, because Gore’s we can disprove right here and now... You can actually disprove some of what Bush is saying if you really get in the weeds and get out your calculator or you look at his record in Texas. But it’s really easy, and it’s fun, to disprove Gore.

        [...]

        I actually happen to know people who need government and so they would care more about the programs, and less about the things we kind of make fun of... But as sport, and as our enterprise, Gore coming up with another whopper is greatly entertaining to us. And we can disprove it in a way we can’t disprove these other things.

        Well, ain't that swell of MC - she knows people who "need government". Of course, she isn't one of the people who needs government - she makes a mint sitting at her computer and typing up her swill. But, yep, she does know people who need government; she ocassionally dips her toe into the working class end of the pool. But guess what? She doesn't actually care about those people who need government. If she did - she might have actually tried reporting on how Gore might help them and how Bush might fuck them.

        But why doesn't she? Because it's fun. It's fucking sport to regurgitate the myths about Al Gore... no matter how inconsequential. No, it was easier to mock Al Gore's earth tones and hiring of Naomi Wolf than it was to point out what a complete failure Georgw Bush was as a student, man, soldier, and governor.

        It's MC and her tribe of millionaire pundits who are DIRECTLY to blame for the ascendancy to power of the George W. Bush, the war in Iraq, and the deaths of 3100+ soldiers.

  •  Great diary Psifighter (6+ / 0-)

    I cannot seem to express my frustrations enough with the apparent disgust some people seem to have with Obama around here.  Obviously, I am an Obama supporter but personally I like all the democrats in field despite individual misgivings.

    It is blatantly obvious that most people around here are supporting someone else and if not they would rather anyone other than Obama to be getting the attention right now.

    When the Edwards bloggers incident happen and a couple diaries came up, I showed my support and said I thought the media was making the incident bigger than it needs to be.  I have never jumped in the Hillary will not admit her mistake on the vote camp because I am a democrat and if she gets elected I will stand by her, period.  My personal choice is and always will be Obama.  But the most important thing is my belief in the democratic party which takes precendence over any of the candidates.

    There is something bugging people around here Obama that they are really not admitting otherwise they would not be attacking the guy worst than Fox News.  I have only been a member of this site for a couple of weeks, however, since I been here I have some of the worst and unfounded insults and smears thrown at Obama, Hillary, and Edwards.

    Obama has been the most effective candidate to date bar none.  He attracts the most crowds and has the potential to make the most dramatic change to the democratic platform since FDR.  His platform, style, speaking, and counter attack strategy is unique.  None of the other candidates are running a more effective campaign.

    •  I Honestly Don't Think It's About Color (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kpardue, DianeNYS, LV Pol Girl

      I think he is not getting support here because he is a relative newcomer to national politics. What I DO know is that my seventeen year old son and ALL of his friends are firmly in the Obama '08 camp and are campaigning their parents pretty hard on their candidate's behalf.  He is excited that his first act of voting next year will be to vote for Obama in the primary.  He has alot of company.  I am amazed at the outpouring of civic minded behavior that Obama is inspiring in the youngest voters.  Whatever we older folks may think about Obama's candidacy,  I would urge us not to alienate these new voters who are feeling thrilled and excited about the electoral process for the first time.

      •  He threatens movement purity (0+ / 0-)

        Because he has a movement of his own. Outside of this one.

        I think we find ourselves as two armies in the middle of the same battlefield.

        Turned against a common enemy (like say...Republicans), then its all over and we win and the conservative movement is finished.

        But if the netroots puts all its eggs in Obama's basket, and we join forces, and he leads us in a way we don't expect or intend, it could harm the movement long-term.

        I, personally, can't wait for the two movements to join and finish the GOP/conservative movement once and for all.

        Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

        by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:29:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I just want some people to admit . . . (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    faithfull

    Why do you guys hate Obama so much?

    •  His... (0+ / 0-)

      nameracereligionschoolfamilyelectabilitylegislationsubstancenotaprogressiveliebermanism! i mean his staffers worked for not Howard Dean!

      Obama's still clean.

      Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

      by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:57:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kerfuffle, Damn It! KERFUFFLE (0+ / 0-)

    in a LADDYFUZZ "KERFUFFLE" type of way.

    ", syrup ,..., shit ,..., hotcakes." Meteor Blades
    John McCain

    by JugOPunch on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 05:47:54 PM PDT

  •  Gibbs is a problem for me (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JugOPunch

    He is one of the hired guns who attack Democrats and provide the GOP with free talking points and op-research. It really is disappointing to read about his role in Obama's campaign.

    Four years ago Howard Dean was coming from "nowhere" to shake up and wake up the Democratic Party. He brought the message that won in 2006, but it fell on deaf ears in 2004. And more than that, he was savagely attacked for telling the truth. Gibbs was a leader in that attack.

    At the very least he owes the Party and Dr. Dean an apology and an explanation. The same is true of the others involved in the attacks of the 2004 campaign (and for me this includes those involved in the Edwards, Kerry and Kucinich campaigns--I was in Iowa and remember what went on).

    I wish this attacking our own was not the ball in play. And as an undecided Democrat, the campaigns involved in this stuff lose points with me. This evening Richardson is looking better and better.

    But who knows what will happen next...

    Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

    by dengre on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 06:31:39 PM PDT

    •  I read Jerome's article. It scracthed Obama for (0+ / 0-)

      me, almost. Yet, what about Hilary Clinton?  I've search on goggle, and I need help here. Didn't she threatened contributors not to support other candidates? Is this what it is all about?  Is this her hit job?

      ", syrup ,..., shit ,..., hotcakes." Meteor Blades
      John McCain

      by JugOPunch on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 07:13:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Huh?!?!?!?! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      faithfull, JugOPunch

      You're basing your support on something that happened in 04, when Mr. Obama was still in the Illinois House of Reps?????  So I should still be pissed at my little brother for not watching my Starters Jacket during a basketball game in 93 while we both were in highschool?????

      I serve so that my children don't have to. I fight so my children won't have to.

      by fromdabak on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 07:31:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JugOPunch

    I like Barack. He thinks. He inspires. He touches a chord.

    Don't know if I like or will like the Obama campaign that has someone that mercilessly swiftboated Dean on-board. Perhaps Obama should talk to Gibbs face to face and reconcile things as honestly and sincerely as possible, between everyone.

    The big question for Obama: does he condone the attacks on Dean?

    An honest apology (if that's possible) from Gibbs along with the naming of everyone besides (Toricelli, David Jones, Gibbs) that was involved in that hack job on Dean could help.

    That's the dilemma of the day for me.

  •  Jesus, 2004 crap still? Not like Dean or (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jimrice, faithfull

    Edwards were saints in that campaign themselves.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 07:47:35 PM PDT

  •  2004? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jimrice

    Edwards attacks Dean:

    Despite being credited with breathing life into his presidential bid by pushing positive themes, Sen. John Edwards' campaign circulated a confidential briefing book earlier this month that instructed supporters on how to attack his Democratic rivals during the Iowa caucuses.

    The nearly 50-page document, of which CNN obtained 10 pages, tells his campaign captains in Iowa precincts to describe former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean as an "elitist from Park Avenue in New York City."

    ...Edwards' signature appears prominently at the top of the document next to his typewritten name...

    Edwards should FIRE himself!

    Right on PsiFighter. People just can't seem to find a way to attack Obama. All the criticisms have come across as so silly. His race, his religion, his "supporters," his "Liebermanism"(he supported Lamont), and attacks on his "substance" have all failed. So now we move to attacking people on his staff who have worked for Democrats who weren't Howard Dean? I agree that the ad was ugly, but I think that Gibbs has been incredibly effective and approtpriate thus far for Obama. And unless that changes, there's no reason to chastise him.

    Oh, the hills are groaning with excess, like a table ceaselessly being set.

    by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:55:46 AM PDT

Permalink | 93 comments