Daily Kos

Let me explain what they want

Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 12:02:25 AM PDT

[hello and welcome to readers of theoildrum.com]

I saw a diary the other day asking "what do they want?".  Simply put:  why are Bush/Cheney et al doing what they are doing when all obvious logic dictates that any of a list of possible goals would be better achieved with other courses of action.  Predictably much of the commentary was taken up with suggestions that they are intrinsically evil people who just want to control things... which actually sorta missed the point of the question I think - which was that surely there is a better explanation than that.  

There is.  It is frightening.  Not enough people talk about it seriously enough.  One part of me even likes it this way as I feel it buys me more time to prepare my own exit plans.  I just thought I'd turn my comment into a diary to get a feel for who may actually have any awareness of this sort of thing yet, on here.

The reason: They want to survive.  They understand Peak Oil better than you.  They understand its true implications - the die off.  They are planning to do whatever they can to help their elite make it through.  What are you doing for your family?

Peak Oil.  Survival.

Bush and his cabal are oil people.  They know a thing or two about the oil business - regardless of personal success or otherwise in profitable business decisions.

They have known for a long time about Hubbert's Peak and Peak Oil.  They have had time to think it through while it was barely on the radar screen of even the most thoughtful lay person.  

Peak Oil is frightening because of the consequences and the general public's basic misunderstanding of where the threat lies in a world without oil.  And that is what we are talking about.  In 100 years we have used up more than half the world's total oil.  Some believe we have passed the peak, others that we'll do so within 5-8 years.  None knowledgeably predict a much later date.  

This leads to an assumption the world's oil runs out in around 2050.  Except the truth is that the crunch will come much sooner - the oil left is the hardest and most expensive to get to.  Supply will falter.  Major powers will fight over control.  Shocks and dislocations will happen much earlier that will wake up the world to the problem, shatter the economy and  in turn prevent much of the production being fulfilled and distributed.

So why the big worry?  Well it isn't just automotive.  Let's grant the technologists a win on that one even (though not really likely globally in time).  It isn't the air travel - though the physics just don't allow you to replace petrochemicals as you can in a car - its a thermodynamics problem.  But let's say we can get by without air travel.  It is the food.

Virtually all of the world's food production is dependent on fertilizers based on oil and natural gas products.  Without these chemicals food production collapses.

The world's sustainable population with pre-oil technologies was about 1-1.5billion.  It is over 6billion today.  Given that there isn't the old farming techniques, land and capacity available to shift back to these methods (and modern fertalizers having made much of the land infertile to these methods), and given that modern societies do not have everyone living within walking distance of food production, experts predict that under a collapse the planet is more likely going to be able to feed only about 500million people.  Again there are 6 billion today, roughly.

How do you get there from here?  A lot of people dying.  Imagine 95% of the world dying and you are close to the mark.  

And what do you think happens to a society during things like that?

The elites on behalf of whom Bush/Cheney work have figured this out.  And their view is that those that get to survive are likely to be those that can gather the most resources in advance of fighting for survival.  This is why they concentrate wealth in the hands of a few.  This is why they continue an official policy of trying to seize control of oil resources to provide as long a lifeline as possible to prepare before the US collapses.

Why wouldn't rewarding those that already had most in society with more be the best way of choosing winners from losers in this?  If your view is that financial means are the rewards for being a superior person in every way, as our society has come to view such things in every practical way?

These people are preparing the lifeboats.  Only there ain't going to be many of them.

Sure, we'll pray for a miracle - science to the rescue.  We'll fight to control resources as long as possible to allow the numbed masses to stay deluded for a bit longer.  But make no bones about it a dark night is coming.  And these people expect to be the ones with the torches.

I think that makes far more sense than just people being bad and evil for the sake of it.  If you have to resort to nonsense explanations like 'they are just megalomaniacs who want to control things with no real end' then you are probably wrong.  I am glad the question is asked.  I wish more people would instead of falling back on cheap digs at serious people.

Personally - I am transitioning into the lifeboat building business.  Anyone care to join me?

...Global warming...pah...real men have restless nights over Peak Oil...

Tags: Peak Oil, Iraq, Iran, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 35 comments

  •  I came to the same conclusion some time ago. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    abbeysbooks

    I'm really not sure what to do. I find myself saying, "everything sucks" quite often. I can't say it's got me completely down, but there's a part of me that dies inside when I think about it. Ce la vie.

  •  The concentration of wealth in the hands of a few (0+ / 0-)

    is not a new phenomenon.  It hasn't been confined to capitalist systems or the fossil fuel era.  Something about money creates in some an irrational need for same to the exclusion of others.  What the shrubbistas represent is certainly radical but not without historical precedent.  As difficult as it may be to believe, this too shall pass.

    •  I agree with you about their motivations (0+ / 0-)

      Pure greed and lust for power is nothing new, and I doubt that the current cabal is actually bright enough to see the looming danger and plan for it.

      But I agree with the diarist about what the real danger is - it's the food supply. Feeding as many people as are currently living on this planet is simply not possible without that magical black elixer known as petroleum. And producing it in the increasing quantities needed for the still increasing population is not possible.

      Everything in our current way of living depends on oil. From having enough to eat to the cheap sterile plastics that are essential to modern medicine and everything in between.

      I hope that you are right about this too passing. I hope that the dystopian visions of mass famines and refugees by the hundreds of millions are the fevered imaginings of the hysterical. But I'm not entirely convinced that they are.

      I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution. - Barbara Jordan

      by Janet Strange on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 01:53:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, we can keep food going (1+ / 0-)

        The fuel required to cultivate and fertilize corn can be obtained from the stalks and leaves, with a considerable surplus.  However, this doesn't deal with the rest of the chains to and from the farm, and the demands of society at large could never be supplied this way.  They are just too inefficient to be supplied with what we can grow.

        On the other hand, we have technologies on the shelf or in the pipeline which are efficient enough to replace fossil fuels with biofuels and maintain our current standard of living (very important for political acceptance).  I wrote this up last November in Sustainability, energy independence and agricultural policy.

        --
        Work the cold equations; some answers will make you feel warm.

        by Engineer Poet on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 07:08:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  i think we are talking about different things (0+ / 0-)

      the cyclical nature of money and political capital flow is well understood

      the issue here is that the Peak Oil crisis doesnt just pass...

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:52:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with you. Interested in a lifeboat read (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Halcyon

    And so does that ultimate pessimist jim Kunstler at http://www.kunstler.com
    so if anyone hasn't read him they can start.

    Our entire way of life is centered on the automobile. That means our entire way of life is going to change.

    But fly over Rome and even in the city you see people growing food in small plots, on roofs, in back yards etc. Start now. Don't live in an isolated place because you will be vulnerable when they come to take it from you. Intentional communities offer a way as do coop housing arrangements. Too many of these are very pricey to get in so find something local and cheap and collect people to do it with you.

    Right now I am living in a neon red town of around 2000 people. I can walk to every single thing I need. It is only cultural activities that get me to drive to Springfield MO and my chiropractor. All else is two blocks at the most. This has been deliberate.

    There is another large building near me that has a double storefront, double apartment upstairs and a back building loft type space. All need renovation to be lived in and used except the storefront. I plan to move my used bookstore in there and anyone who wants to come in this with me can put what they want in there too. I am sure I can get the building for 55K with owner financing for a few years to keep the monthly payments under $500 a month for all of us. I am also willing to throw in my storefront around the corner for whatever we all decide. Restaurant? Food coop? Whatever? I will be talking to the owner about it soon as she has to extricate herself from an exclusive relisting that I told her not to do. She was suckered. There is another building on the square with a storefront(Edward Jones moved out), a side business with a photographer, and an upstairs apartment loft finished. 150K and empty owned by the city. We are 30 minutes from Springfield on 4 lane divided highway and just under an hour from Branson.

    If you are interested start emailing me. I plan to get a commitment and then offr an option on ebay if I can't get people by talking about it. I can link you to a lot of pictures.

    FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

    by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 12:33:57 AM PDT

    •  Where are you planning to grow your food? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Boston Boomer, abbeysbooks

      You can't rely on walking to the corner grocery for food when the crisis hits.

      I agree with the diarist and have been commenting same as well. The elite believe they can buy their survival of peak oil, but I don't think they take global warming seriously, and they obviously don't realize or care that climate disruption will destroy much of higher life forms, animal and  plant.

      •  Give me a plot the size of a big dining room (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Halcyon

        table and I can grow and put up enough for at least two families.

        I am mulching the hell out of my back yard now. I had boxes of tomatoes last summer and will do much better this coming one. Read Ruth Stout to begin and that will get you going. Continue with One-Straw Revolution and that will get you into weeds to eat like purslane and dandelion greens and dandelion wine!

        Wherever you see weeds, you can grow veggies. See your front yard and all the grass you have to mow. Mulch it now and dig places aside and plant in the spring. Do not dig it up! I repeat, do not dig it up! Stick to in season stuff. Use coldframes to extend the season. In my other place I never had to shop much. Got my milk from an Amish farmer and ate wonderfully. The downside is that you start getting really paranoid when you go to the supermarket because you are wondering how they grew it and harvested it.

        Really it's so easy. No work. Mulch, plant and harvest. No weeding (just throw on another pile of mulch)hardly any watering. Plant harvest and eat. So nice to go out there and decide what to have for dinner today. Not Oh, I have to go to the store today. What shall I get for dinner? Do they have it? Is it fresh.

        I am planning a fresh food restaurant in my little vision.

        If you live in a place where they will complain if you plant veggies instead of grass, then try little circles intermingled with flowers as camoflage. Marigolds that repell insects etc.

        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

        by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 07:08:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You can have a few chickens. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Halcyon

        Just get a truck cab top to put them in at night to protect them and let them forage in the day. And eat them when it's time. Don't name them or you will be lost.

        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

        by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 07:10:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good! That's exactly where we're headed. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          abbeysbooks

          Enough mulch to smother the grass, cool the soil and conserve moisture will be a limiting factor for those without enough tree leaves, for their suburban lawns. We mow and gather as much mulch as we can before the dandelions go to seed each spring. And rake and compost leaves in the fall.

          We started with Bartholemew's 'Square-Foot' gardening and Nancy Bubel's Seed-Starters Handbook. This will be our 9th season growing most of our food, save for spices, condiments and grains. We have a farm, with enough acreage (though worn out, where we haven't been vegie gardening) to grow all the grains we would need to supplement our beans and vegies. But hand seeding, cultivating and harvesting of wheat and barley is emotionally daunting so far.

          We have chickens, but have yet to implement the chicken tractor method, still depending on purchased organic grain to supplement the forage and vegies.

          Good luck with your back yard. I recommend Pine Tree seeds for small packets and extensive books at discount (maybe even worth your ordering @ $2-3); Johnnyseeds.com for the best catalogue, which includes 'how-to' for each vegie, and excellent hand tools.

          •  Suggest Amaranth for grain (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Halcyon

            I don't think winnowing seed would be too hard. A huge sheet and a big strainer box?

            You could get enough for bread and all your grain neds for the year. You now know how relatively little space you need to do this and have extra extra extra.

            They could turn our park grass in the square and feed the whole town. They may have to.

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:11:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Buckwheat is also easy to grow, (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              abbeysbooks

              only ~45 days to harvest.

              Another problem will be pollinators. Vince CA is doing a bee series (he's an apiarist), and warns that global warming + bee parasites are disrupting/reducing bee emergence/populations, which would greatly reduce grain harvest, as well as fruits & nuts.

              •  shit (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Halcyon

                well lots of birds are needed. Tape Vivaldi and put recorders in the field. You can get them cheap at yard sales and thrifts.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:57:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I've been reading Kunstler for a year now (0+ / 0-)

    And I used to think his paintings sucked, and his taste in architecture was limited at the same time he is complaining that the masses don't have any taste. But his recent paintings are so much better. To see him improving so much is gratifying.

    He is in a small town in Saratoga NY, he travels and lectures and writes and paints. Not a bad way to wait for the end.

    Toynbee's History of an empire disintegrating talks about different strategies. Denail, religion, etc. What is yours?

    FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

    by abbeysbooks on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 12:37:23 AM PDT

  •  Corn and beans (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mskitty

    produce enormous amounts of food per acre, without modern fertilizer. The carrying capacity of the world would be much higher than your estimate if these crops were grown for human consumption, and if they were grown wherever practical. Potatoes and other root crops also.

    The vast majority of the acreage cultivated in the US produces only food for livestock. Worldwide it's less so, but areas where food is primarily grown for human consumption are also already less reliant on technology and artificial fertilizers (these are the less developed countries).

    Overall it would be a major shock, but I dispute your figures regarding the die-off. I think it would amount to less than half of the world's population at most, more likely a billion or so.

    •  I have been trying to get people to think (3+ / 0-)

      about this for years ... a very few are deeply concerned, almost all are in total denial - here in Houston, the center of the awl bidness.

      Whenever ANWR drilling came up, my argument was always "Oh no! don't drill now, save it, so when we run out of oil for energy we'll still have that little bit to use for plastics feedstock."

      I think I'm going to have to switch to announcing brightly - whenever apropos - that since we're running out of oil, I'm now in favor of nuclear energy ... and governmental subsidy for research and development of electric cars, because, hey guys, our world runs on oil, and when scarcity pushes up the price, how well do you think our world is going to function at $100/bbl oil? at $150/bbl? at $200? Free market, guys - how long before no one can afford to run a car?

      My mission in life is to produce shocked silence followed by dawning thoughts.

      •  hello fellow Houstonite (0+ / 0-)

        I was having lunch at the Petroleum club of Houston the other week and remember thinking that these idiots are happy to go around denying shit because they all are stacking up the cash to buy a place in a lifeboat

        No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

        by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:57:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  problem is (0+ / 0-)

      1. imagine the economic shocks to the world of such a massive die-off - even in your numbers

      then realise for any alternative to work either a) the whole world needs to learn to farm again or b) we need a sophisticated economy to move the goods and keep people fed

      i think you find that you don't get the needed economy once the panic and decline starts - and it becomes a spiral

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:57:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  absolutely (0+ / 0-)

        the technology level would quickly slide to medieval.

        I think we still have a chance, but the window of opportunity is closing fast. Ironically the ones who most oppose positive action now would likely be the first to turn to barbarism.

        •  i follow a two prong approach (0+ / 0-)

          lobby everyone i know to get awareness to try to get some sort of action along the lines of:

          1. powerdown the economy
          1. use market forces to aggressively shift food production to sustainable crops, methods and locations
          1. aggressively shift resources into chasing down energy alternatives while we still have an economy that can direct resources to smart people with creative ideas (that will go early)

          and the second prong is to plan my lifeboat strategy... i favour a securable location far from large population centers and a community large enough to sustain a reasonable ongoing sense of doing more than just surviving till the inevitable

          i have some good ideas of where - and i plan to get a website up to capture as many ideas of the how and what is needed for such a society from as many people as possible... with sufficient resources a sustainable community of a few hundred in a location well researched for its ability to grow food but to avoid weather extremes (you won't have the energy for heating or cooling) is possible...

          i think we have about 10 years to get to the exits - but that is if we really work hard now

          No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 10:46:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's only one, tiny (2+ / 0-)

    problem with your take on their strategy, and its completyely consistent with everything else they have dopne.

    In the situation that you describe, and I don't for a moment discount it, I've been a peak oioler for a while jnow, the one thing they would need more than anything else, would be a functioning military with a stake in the ruling class.

    And in the last 4 years they have consistenty;y, religiously, relentlessly destriyed the US military.

    The elites can't fight fopr themselves, the army is broken, the guard is destroyed and they are all learning to hate Bushco with a venom.

    When the military is confronted with having to save the worthless hides of the ruling elites, they are going to think,

    "hmm, money is worth nothing, property is worth nothing, and we don't have enough oil anyway. All that is worth anything is the ability to sticvk a gun in someone's afce and demand their food, fuel, accomodation and perks. Now, what is it again that these people can do for us? Since we have the guns?"

    Then there will be a reckoning.

    Or to almost quote Jared Diamond about the greenland Norse, "all they managed to do, for all their effort in grabbing all the resources, was gain themselvbes the right to be the last to die."

    Make that second to last.

    The Number of the Beast 78-22

    by Deep Dark on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 04:08:48 AM PDT

    •  Blackwater. (0+ / 0-)

      They've purposely been destroying the US military because they have their own mercenaries, their own plantations in Paraguay, atop the Guarani aquifer, and probably are stashing oil & gas, as well as building solar and wind energy farms for their own needs.

      Elites sneer at the US military, made up of poor rural kids with no other future. They like their Jeff Gannon-type mercenaries.
      .............
      Climate change and desertification will in all likelihood alter growing conditions severely, not to mention our depleted soils will not be very good for growing much without the synthetic inputs. Corn & beans don't require insect pollination, but many other crops do, which will become more of a problem due to die off of many of these insects already.

    •  few things (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Deep Dark
      1. doesn't matter if their plan works - it matters that they believe it can
      1. militaries have always been the prevail of the rich and powerful and served their interest - only the democratized militaries of the 20th century has changed this view temporarily - private militias are already making a come-back

      plus a lifeboat strategy is not about fighting for it - the head-for-the-hills-wth-guns brigade probably won't make it either... a certain defensibility will be essential but only a small part of things...

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 09:00:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Been thinking for years about a retirement farm, (0+ / 0-)

    bermed, in the PA or NC mountains. Good water supply under the mountains. Woods for fuel; build & stock a pond, clear some ground for sustenance farming. Chickens & goats. Solar panels & satellite dish. Maybe try some hydroponics, if not too expensive. Modest stockpiles of medical supplies, weapons, booze, and gold. All the "How To" books.

    Invest my grandson's inheritance. He may thank or curse me; but if he needs it, it's there.

    "Mercury toxicity - Brain death for all children - no child left behind." William McDonough

    by grayday101 on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 08:21:40 AM PDT

    •  i read some interesting thoughts (0+ / 0-)

      on stockpiles

      skills are more important than stockpiles and stockpiles that are too attractive to people with more guns or more fight in them should be avoided

      but i am not far from this in view... still figuring out where

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 09:02:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been stockpiling (0+ / 0-)

        skills for 30 years now.  A few of the best books here and there, but mostly rely on the memory since books are heavy (that changes with CD-ROM, but then you need electricity to run the computer).  And nobody knows about your stockpiles of knowledge unless you tell them, and they can't steal them if they kill you <grin>.

        •  i think the view is also (0+ / 0-)

          that in even the most violent and extreme societies (the example i read referred to the pirate communities of the New World) those with skills are largley left untroubled as the recognition is that those skills are necessary

          No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 10:49:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Leanan over at The Oil Drum just noticed you (0+ / 0-)

    That's the only reason many people are reading this. Oh yeah! got your peak-oil skank-on now, Bro!

    Seriously - pretty good stuff. You should probably actually try to play with "Hubbert" numbers sometime. There's only about 4 people that do. Simmons isn't one of them.

    •  well that is nice - being read better than not (0+ / 0-)

      to be honest i don't really worry so much about the numbers at the margins so  much as the oil-in-the-foodchain issues.  I just don't see many ways of squaring the realities of the potential for mass starvation - or panic leading to enough of a meltdown to lead to it.

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 10:19:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  cool - just found it on there (0+ / 0-)

      well that makes me feel all happy

      i haven't really read much on that site but i am just  reading through it now and it is going on my dailies...

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 10:30:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Motives (0+ / 0-)

    I am not a severe catastrophist for many reasons, although the idiocy of the human race sometimes makes me wonder (e.g. World trade center gets bombed, start a world war with Islam).

    In my opinion, the motivations of the Bush/Cheney group are based more on present self-interest than on any apocalyptic view (to the extent Bush has such a view it is related to the End Of Days).  People in the oil industry, including my brother who is otherwise intelligent, have this view that the industry is perpetually victimized by society.  This is based on the fact that for 30 years the oil industry has made little profit (% return on investment) compared to other classes of industry such as pharmaceuticals.  It seems to be human nature to seek other humans to blame for ones problems, rather than to acknowledge that an impersonal situation is responsible for our difficulties.  In this case, the inelastic demand curve for oil combined with 35 years of excess production capacity.  Because the demand curve is inelastic, oil price has had a tendency to fall through the floor, eliminating all but the most viscously efficient producers.

    This leads to the question: how can oil companies make consistent large profits given an inelastic oil demand curve.  I believe there is only one way and that situation has now been created byBush/Cheney.  Oil scarcity produced by pushing consumption has raised the price of the product, while political inaction and oil price volatility has prevented the large scale changes in life style that would decrease oil consumption. A sustained effective program aimed at using less oil would lead to a return of oversupply and must be avoided.  Thus the Bush/Cheney group have done all they can do for their team.  Beyond that, they are simply being human.  Most of us believe that we (or at least I) are moral and right, therefore what benefits us and our viewpoint benefits humanity.

    I want to make one more point, evolutionary psychology suggests this set of behaviors had adaptive advantage in humanities past.  Unfortunately our race now faces problems that are planet wide and can only be addressed as intellectual concepts requiring group action.  Normal humans – not real big on understanding -usually rely on personal rules of behavior until those rules prove to be catastrophic. I don’t really see a path to sustainability other than a few instructional disasters.

    The question of motive in the behaviors of leaders and citizens is essential to understanding how we can change political direction on issues of sustainability. This topic is part of the field of evolutionary psychology (primers can be found here; http://www.hbes.com/...  An example of such an approach based on Jay Hanson’s rather dark views can be found at; http://www.theoildrum.com/...

    •  i hear what you are saying (0+ / 0-)

      working at Halliburton in the Dick Cheney years i recall just such a mindset

      but ultimately my point is that i am  very  very worried about the food supply issues regarding peak oil - i can buy the potential for solutions to many other aspects of the deal, or that the effects would be liveable with... but not the food supply issues

      and to be honest if i were in the position of Bush/Cheney i'd worry about this too

      in such a case i feel their actions are at the very least consistent with awareness of a need to buy time to secure an exit for their own clique

      i am a scientist by training - i know correlation does not necessarily equal causation - but this is a place for the bouncing around of ideas and opinions

      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 10:22:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  i can't believe i missed this (1+ / 0-)

    i found it through a link Halcyon posted elsewhere

    a comment or two ...

    i've thought along similar lines, but with a few variations here and there

    first, and maybe most important, it's been my experience that the children of the rich are idiots. yes, there are exceptions but, in general, they're kind of useless. which does raise the possibility of an exceptionally cruel kind of feudalism - but i think they're even too useless for that

    in addition, many people have been preparing for a very long time and they're pretty well armed. heh. this is especially true in rural areas. in fact, as i'm sure you know, there are now entire forums dedicated to a pretty bloody form of survivalism and a philosophy of "take no prisoners."

    combine this with the idiocy of so many children of the wealthy, and either those who grow the food (and are armed to the teeth) or the children of the wealthy are going to get wiped out.

    unless the wealthy move to their own island - which is possible.

    in addition, some land is being reclaimed - mine, for example. mine was never farmed - 90 years ago, they were grazing sheep on it and, since then, it's been grazed by cattle, goats, sheep, etc - but it's arable, with some work. it's also partially  forested.

    so bit by bit, i'm planting it and improving the soil by digging out rocks and trash, and adding compost (my own), peat and the like. t

    and there are many people doing that - not enough to prevent 99.99999% of what's coming, but we are doing it with some intentionality, meaning we're doing it with an eye to the future and possible collapse.

    my feelings are, if i perish or am long gone when it happens, at least i've done my part to prepare a plot which can be used for someone's survival - hopefully, my family's but really, anyone would do.

    i have more thoughts on this but the conversation is already over - in this diary, at least - i hope you write more about it, though

    James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

    by cookiebear on Wed Feb 07, 2007 at 08:10:33 AM PDT

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