Senator Clinton devoured my firstborn! w/poll!

A cookie to whoever's the first to accuse me of being Hillary's paid blogger for posting this, and yes, I'm going to disclaimer it with the fact that I don't support her.

At the same time, I find that a ton of my comments are defending her against baseless attacks. I don't particularly enjoy this because I believe she has a lot to explain and I support vigorously challenging her in this primary, but she is not Republican lite nor does she exhibit Joementum-like behavior.

People who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 (especially in FL) were part of the problem and if you want to vote for him again or stay home if Hillary is the nominee, you are also part of the problem.

Say what you will about Hillary and Iraq, but we wouldn't even be there if so many people didn't buy the George Bush = Al Gore bs. Imagine the kinds of things that could happen in 2009-2013 if enough of us buy the Hillary = Republican lite line. Hillary bears much of the responsibility for showing us that she provides a meaningful and real contrast to rethug policies, but we as educated voters bear some responsibility too.

We cannot equate her to a Republican because of her smarmy political style and we should not use Republican smear tactics against her because we disagree with her. Besides, isn't there enough actual substance to level against her without having to act Faux News about it? Unfortunately many people are so afraid of the possibility of her being the Democratic nominee that they have no shame in insinuating that she's basically on Israel's payroll. Evidence is misused, distorted or just plain left out, and flame wars aside, I'd just like to think better of this site.

There are a lot of Democrats out there who may have problems with a progressive nominee that I love, but we still need their votes. If we expect them to hold their nose and vote for the Democrat because he/she'll be a hellof a lot better than any Republican, we need to be willing to do the same. This does not mean be a spineless noodle who compromises your values on a regular basis, just that we need hold our "discussions" about Hillary to the same standards we would any other subject and acknowledge that anti-Hillary emotion can get the best of us.

And if you don't think you can manage to vote for Hillary in the general election, try thinking of it as a personal favor to John Paul Stevens.

•  probably n/t

  by tiponeill on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:38:21 PM PDT

•  She turned me into a newt! n/t

  by Bouwerie Boy on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:38:22 PM PDT

  •  I see you got bettuh nt

    by JML9999 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:41:45 PM PDT

  •  Liar

    That's a smear started by the Barack Obama campaign.

    by fabooj on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:45:03 PM PDT

•  If HRC is the nominee

  I will treat 2008 as a non-presidential year and spend all my time and effort on downticket candidates. If I can't find any where I live, I'll spend it instead on causes I believe in, like civil liberties and human rights.

  As for voting for her, I'll make that decision on Election Day--assuming she isn't defeated in the primaries.

  by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:39:47 PM PDT

  •  I'll Put You Down

    for the liberal, but not necessarily Democratic ticket.

    by FLDemJax on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:47:11 PM PDT

  •  Terry, you should really be reading my diaries.

    Clinton is not as far-right as you seem to think she is   , at least on economic issues.

    Just posted the last one now.

    by DemocraticLuntz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:54:38 PM PDT

    •  I concur.

      I'm not a huge Hillary fan, but your diaries are excellent and do a wonderful job of distinguishing fact from bullshit.

      by brownsox on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:58:15 PM PDT

    •  Point well-taken, but 3 responses

      First, Iraq. That issue overshadows all else.

      Second, civil liberties. Aside from abortion rights, she's been lukewarm at best toward them.

      Third, governance of the Democratic Party. She's firmly in the camp of the party mandarins: the big donors, the Beltway pundits, and the same consultants who've advised Democrats not to take a stand. If nominated, that who will run the party; we'll be squeezed out.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:00:21 PM PDT

      •  It's 3 that puts me off her

        I figure, if she gets elected, she'll get back to her roots and stop trying to pander to the right.  

        It's the Beltway party mandarins aspect that she'll stand by.  Not only do they have a bad attitude toward true democracy (that's usn's), but their way of doing things earned us losses and minorities in the first place.

        by Urizen on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:31:15 PM PDT

      •  well put

        Hillary is "D.C. business as usual"

        by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:47:58 PM PDT

      •  point three

        She is clearly successful at the Beltway game, but I don't see how her DC success is mutually exclusive with a strong netroots.

        Nor have I seen any evidence that she is opposed to the netroots influence on the party. On the contrary, she is pretty reliably partisan, i.e. in favor of all that is good for democratic party. After all, she supported Lamont's nomination with money and staff.

        She has avoided actively wooing this community, but who can blame her? This community has really gone out of its way to make it clear that she is not welcome under any circumstances.

        by heartofblue on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:09:24 PM PDT

      •  My point was that in a state like Michigan, there

        is still reason to vote for in the general election.

        by DemocraticLuntz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 09:20:42 PM PDT

    •  Re the bankruptcy bill, you are

      disingenuous.  While she may have missed the last vote because of Bill Clinton's illness, she voted for what was essentially the same bill in 2001.

      I will note vote for Hillary.  She's obligated to the same corporatist, monied agenda as the DLC.

      Also can't commit to "anyone but Hillary".  Gotta see how it shakes out.

      by Frankenoid on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:36:06 PM PDT

      •  She made a big speech against the bill

        and said she wouldn't support it.

        by tigercourse on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:18:11 PM PDT

•  TJ

  I gave you the pie option too.

  by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:42:46 PM PDT

•  She ate...

  Your firstbon with a Pole???

  Next Fox and Friends - Exclusive - What Does Hillary have Against Hungarian Cooking?

  DFooK

  by deepfish on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:43:46 PM PDT

  •  Poll is the traditional side dish for baby.

    As for HRC- I'll vote for her if she's in the general election.  I'm a pragmatist in the fact thart I don't care for her, but I cannot in any way facilitate another four years of GOP residence in the WHite House.  Anyone who abstains needs to understand that the rest of us know she's easily not liked: but if she's the Dem nominee then we need to bust our asses to get a Dem in the White House.

    Because McCain or Giuliani are going to make Hillary Clinton look like a saint if they get their mits on the reins.

    She may, in fact, embody the notion of "the lesser of two evils".

    by electricgrendel on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:48:05 PM PDT

    •  Your reasoning just makes me so hopeful. Yes

      HRC will make Brownback look so bad that I'll have to vote for her.

      This is the same "I'll put up with it" attitude that has got us here. When are you, and the freakin Dem leadership, going to realize that voters - not just me, uberleftist - want someone that stands for something, not someone that wants to win and will say what it takes to do that.

      This is what makes McCain look so awful - he will do anything to win the nomination.

      by Spud1 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:12:20 PM PDT

      •  I hear you

        but if it's a choice between Hillary and anybody with an R after their name in '08, I know who I'm voting for.

        by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:58:27 PM PDT

        •  Don't let it come to that. BTW - thanx for

          the props for Turn Maine Blue.

          by Spud1 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:18:09 PM PDT

          •  Do you not see gray?

            Let me try to put this as succinctly as possible:

            Vote for and fight for whomever you want in the primary.  If you best Hillary (or Obama, or Edwards or Kuccinich who whoever you dislike) then awesome.  But if you lose?  Don't tromp off with your ball and refuse to be part of the team.

            There's a difference between being passionate in the primary and obstinate in the general.  We need all of the votes we can get when it comes down to D versus R.

            If you, uber leftist or even who you think is the majority of our voters, cannot get your candidate to win in the primaries, then there's no reason to punish the nation by refusing to vote en masse.  Because  yeah- Hillary isn't the greatest.

            But I'll take Hillary over any Republican any day of the week: if those are my only two choices.

            by electricgrendel on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 09:19:49 PM PDT

            •  But you see - there will be other choices, and

              this is the problem of not having a viable third (or fourth) party.

              by Spud1 on Wed Feb 07, 2007 at 04:04:02 AM PDT

•  I want a Democratic President in 2008

  zperiod.

  by godislove on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:44:27 PM PDT

  •  And unfortunately, HRC does not qualify n/t

    by Spud1 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:09:05 PM PDT

    •  C'mon

      yes she does, and so does her puppy, erm , husband.

      by coigue on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:11:38 PM PDT

      •  Ouch n/t

        by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:58:48 PM PDT

  •  I'll take anyone

    that ain't a Republican.

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:50:49 PM PDT

•  I really hope we don't

  nominate Hilary (she'd be fifth or sixth on my list), but she'd probably be a good president and she'd certainly be a better president than anyone the repugs run.

  by Urizen on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:45:55 PM PDT

  •  Couldn't have said it better

    myself.

    Although I actually wouldn't mind her. When she's the fifth choice, you've got a kick-ass field.

    by brownsox on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:55:29 PM PDT

    •  We do have a kickass field this time.

      I don't count Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, or Gravel, but any of the others would be good and could win.  

      by Urizen on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:26:50 PM PDT

      •  Biden is one

        I'd have serious trouble voting for.  Fortunately, it doesn't look like a problem any of us will have...

        by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:06:20 PM PDT

•  You're a paid Hillary blogger!

  Chocolate chip please.

  by Olds88 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:45:57 PM PDT

  •  paid bloggers can't give out cookies!

    cause we work for evil washington consultants

    by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:54:55 PM PDT

    •  Breaking: Hillary Campaign Breaks Cookie Promise!

      I'm keeping track.

      by Olds88 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:52:23 PM PDT

      •  Don't say "breaking"!

        If it is a joke you will be punished here!

        by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:54:38 PM PDT

•  I was a Dean fanatic....

  but I voted and tried my best to get folks to vote for Kerry. But I never equated him with Bush. I am a Democrat (and lean heavily socialist)-I vote my party. The option not voting was out of the question!  

  The anti-Hillary talk bothers me too. I am a little more supportive for her but she isn't my first choice by any means either. Because in the end, she might very well be the nominee.  To be realistic, it won't be Clark, Kucinich, Dodd or even Richardson.

  What will happen then after everyone is done slicing her character up on DKOs? Go ring doorbells for her because McCain or someone equally dangerous is the nominee? Not vote? Greenpeace? Nader?
  And let the GOP win again? No way!

  All the Democratic candidates as it stands today (including Clark), would make a positive difference and would surely be a massive change than who we have today in the White House.

  by vassmer on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:46:38 PM PDT

  •  Come to Vermont.....

    the water's fine!!

    I am a Democrat (and lean heavily socialist)

    

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:53:46 PM PDT

•  what are you...

  Hillary's paid blogger???

  ;-P.............

  Seriously, though - I'm not a fan of hers, but I'll vote for whomever is on that Democratic Line in 2008 (unleeesssss it's LaRouche...).  You think the attacks on candidates are nasty now???  Just wait until the Fall....

  by Hardhat Democrat on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:46:46 PM PDT

  •  Olds88

    Already ate your cookie.

    by fabooj on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:48:03 PM PDT

    •  damnit!

      that's what happens when one types four words per minute....

      by Hardhat Democrat on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:51:00 PM PDT

      •  there's still that old christmas cookie...

        or half of it rather...it may be inside the couch..hmm.

        by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:53:51 PM PDT

        •  But I'm saving that one

          For my baby to find, right after it gets all dusty and stale.  Yep, that'll make a great snack on April 9.

          by fabooj on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:03:10 PM PDT

•  finally, a poll with pie!

  so many newcomers, unaware of the rules.

  I actually agree with many of your points-- Hillary is not my first choice in the primaries, but she is not Darth Vader, either. I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

  by jeffinalabama on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:47:38 PM PDT

•  I'll bet she did

  with a nice White Chianti, and a baguette.

  At least she has some class. These other candidates, they just drink beer and it's Wonder Bread.

  by shpilk on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:48:21 PM PDT

•  Hillary Clinton is my girlfriend.

  by brownsox on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:58:35 PM PDT

•  I'm not a hillary fan

  But the smear job she is receiving on liberal blogs makes me ill. I'm not talking about legitimate criticism, I am talking about Rovian unsourced crap.
  Pisses me off.

  by doubting thomas on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:03:47 PM PDT

•  Um. I'm a Democrat. I'll vote for the Democrat.

  Period. No discussion needed.

  Now, does that mean I adore Hillary? No. I won't support her in a primary...but if she wins and becomes the nominee...I'll work my ass off to get her elected...just like I'll work my ass off to get ANY Democrat elected.

  That's what we do.

  I don't know who is voting that they won't vote for the Democrat in that poll...but WOW. Reminiscent of Nader bullshit...and look where the hell that got us!! I mean really...I guess some people like to suffer?

  by Elise on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:04:42 PM PDT

  •  yeah

    I think some people just believe compromise is weakness. Unfortunately its a value they share with the far right.

    by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:10:10 PM PDT

•  This is crap. n/t

  by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:06:37 PM PDT

  •  AND,

    I don't get the "rules of the road" here.  One person's idea of a joke is someone else's leave to call the joker an "asswipe".  Then the someone loses his "trusted" priveleges.  Y'all are a bunch of elitists who continually make less and less sense to me as time goes on.  Too hung up on your own sense of "smarts".  Yuck.

    by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:10:41 PM PDT

    •  what exactly are you whining about?

      Did you lose your trusted user status?

      by justalittlebitcrazy on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:17:23 PM PDT

      •  Nope,

        but it happens to others here, those who don't "measure up" to the snobby shadow cast by you who are all knowing.

        by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:20:09 PM PDT

        •  Oh, I'm sorry..

          ...I didn't realize my snobby shadow was in your way.

          by justalittlebitcrazy on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:22:52 PM PDT

          •  Well, now that you know...

            by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:26:20 PM PDT

  •  You're right!

    Oh -- did you mean the diary?

    by LarryInNYC on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:12:49 PM PDT

    •  "Scuse me?

      Don't get your "humor".

      by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:13:57 PM PDT

      •  Common problem

        with LarryInNYC.  Sometimes I think he doesn't get his humor...

        by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:54:28 PM PDT

•  This is ridiculous

  You somehow seem to equate opposing Clinton in the primaries with saying that you won't vote for her if she becomes the Democratic nominee.

  I think she stinks as a progressive and would stink as the Democratic nominee, giving the Repugs a chance they otherwise wouldn't have in 2008.

  Like her hubby, she'll throw us under the bus at every opportunity to score points with right-wingers.

  That being said, if her corporate money and Washington insiders impose her on the rest of us as the Democratic nominee, I'll hold my nose and vote for her, because the alternative would be far worse.

  But don't treat us like children, please.

  by A Mad Mad World on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:10:09 PM PDT

  •  Um, between 1/5th and 1/4th of the people

    responding to this poll, and others, have said they won't support her in the general. Some have said they plan to vote for the Republican.

    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:13:12 PM PDT

    •  I don't believe a word of it

      The most unifying aspect of this site is supporting Democrats.  A few would vote third parties, but it would be the rare Kossack indeed who would vote a Republican over Clinton.

      by A Mad Mad World on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:15:25 PM PDT

      •  Maybe, but I've seen alot of those comments

        and similar results in alot of polls. Many people are at least claiming that they won't vote for her in the general election.

        by tigercourse on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:17:06 PM PDT

        •  Nothing but posturing (& maybe a tantrum) n/t

          by A Mad Mad World on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:22:11 PM PDT

    •  frontpage poll

      also it seems 352ish people would stay home if Obama / Edwards were the only option. I don't get it.

      by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:17:01 PM PDT

  •  not at all

    being one of the people who opposes Clinton in the primaries (as I said I did) I'm talking to the people who attack her without evidence and shout their refusal to vote for her in the general election.

    by roubs on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:14:30 PM PDT

    •  Perhaps, but I don't see that in a reread

      You might edit the diary to make that a little clearer, even if you think it's already clear. When someone comments on my writing by misunderstanding something I thought was already clear, I try to edit to make the point even clearer.

      That way idiots like me won't misunderstand your diary.

      by A Mad Mad World on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:20:22 PM PDT

    •  Attack her without evidence?

      Her vote for the Iraq Blank Check Resolution is pretty damning evidence by itself.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:20:50 PM PDT

    •  I wouldn't pee on her

      if she were on fire.  She is so sure that her "ability" to buy the nomination is intact that she doesn't even have to try to do her best when "speaking" to us during our "conversation".  Good grief, are you all here so smart you think she is actually "talking" to you?

      by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:23:34 PM PDT

      •  ok, that comment deserves a troll rating..

        ...I'm sorry but that's a bit over the line.

        by justalittlebitcrazy on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:27:40 PM PDT

        •  How so?

          Best I can see on this site is that it's okay to call other bloggers "asswipe" if you don't like what they say... so where does your holier than thou attitude come from?

          by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:29:17 PM PDT

      •  funny thing about pissing...

        ....i wanted to piss on bush during the state-of-the-union...i wish someone close would have just walked up to him, pissed on his leg and walked away...

        by james risser on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:47:40 PM PDT

•  honestly..........

  I just feel that Hillary is always playing both sides of an issue.  She just doesn't seem to have strong, SUSTAINED views about most things.  

  I've seen her speaking at hearings, etc. and what I hear is politico-speak.  Constantly and consistently.  

  If you have charisma, (Bill!!) you can get away with it.  But she just ain't got it.

  Seems like a wonderful, strong, determined, smart person, but she just ain't got it.

  by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:45:48 PM PDT

  •  this is what Kerry tried to do

    and failed...one of W's strengths in 2004 is there was no question "who" he was (even if he's not a real cowboy) that's his images and he sticks with it.  Kerry kept trying on different images to see if there was one the voters liked better and it seems like Hillary is doing the same thing.  Its a shame because she'd do better just being herself as she did when she was first lady.

    by kittania on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:48:28 PM PDT

•  For once in my life

  I didn't vote for pie.

  How many times are we going to have this "will you hold your nose and vote for Hillary" poll?  She'll win every time, because we're all Democrats here.

  'Cept for the freeper trolls, of course...

  by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:53:08 PM PDT

•  No answer from the person who troll rated me, so

  I guess this "conversation" is over.

  by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:53:22 PM PDT

  •  GBCW

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

    by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:56:15 PM PDT

    •  What does GBCW stand for?

      by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 05:57:52 PM PDT

      •  Hoo, boy

        Good Bye Cruel World.

        There's an art form to the diary, which you can explore at the link.  Maybe you can get some tips for your own diary, when the time comes...

        by litho on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:02:41 PM PDT

        •  Oh, thank you,

          your emminence.  I've had a couple of successful diaries here, thanks ever so...

          by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:09:26 PM PDT

  •  here's my reply...and the last one you'll get.

    An earlier comment of mine

    by justalittlebitcrazy on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:11:02 PM PDT

    •  Well,

      if you think that serves your argument well, you can have the last word by all means.  Troll rating is really so easy, by the way, you are the first person here who has troll rated me.

      by nannyboz on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:13:56 PM PDT

      •  Have a recommend. n/t

        by boran2 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:16:45 PM PDT

•  Dingos...

  ...ate my candidate.

  by boran2 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 06:12:40 PM PDT