Daily Kos

Fed Court Uses 2nd Amend to Strike Down D.C. gun law

Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 07:51:14 AM PDT

Yesterday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit struck down several provisions of the gun control laws of the District of Columbia on the grounds that these laws violate the Second Amendment.  This sets up a probable appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, and quite possibly a politically significant fight in about a year before the Supreme Court about the meaning of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms -- right in the midst of a presidential campaign.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit is one of twelve general federal courts of appeals, which are above the 94 federal District (trial) Courts, and below the Supreme Court.  That is, these courts review decisions from the District Courts and their decisions in turn can be reviewed by the Supreme Court.  Although many people may not appreciate this, the federal courts of appeals have never struck down a gun control law on the grounds that the Second Amendment's reference to a right to keep and bear arms protects an individual right of ordinary citizens to possess firearms.  In fact, 9 of the 12 courts of appeals have specifically said that the Constitution's Second Amendment protects only a "collective right" of the states to protect their state militias from being disarmed by the federal government.  The entire Second Amendment states:  "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."  In other words, these 9 courts of appeals have said that there is not individual right to bear arms in the Second Amendment that can be used by an ordinary citizen as a defense to a prosecution for violating a gun control law.  A 10th of the 12 courts of appeals decided in 2001 that the Second Amendment does protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, but it upheld the law at issue in that case (a domestic violence restraining order which included a ban on the possession of firearms) as a reasonable regulation consistent with the basic Second Amendment right.  The only relevant U.S. Supreme Court case was in 1939, in which the Court upheld the conviction for possession of a sawed-off shotgun on the grounds that it was not the sort of weapon that had any connection to service in a state militia.
    Yesterday the D.C. Circuit Court issued a decision in Parker  v. District of Columbia, 04-7041, a case in which several residents of the District of Columbia challenged the District's strict restrictions on handgun possession.  Basically, the residents want to possess handguns or shotguns in their homes for self-defense.  They filed suit against the District and lost in the trial court (which is the District Court).  They then appealed, and yesterday they won their appeal.  The D.C. Circuit struck down several provisions of the District's firearms laws on the grounds that they violated the Second Amendment, which it interpreted to guarantee an individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms.  This court did acknowledge that this right is subject to reasonable restriction, and gave as examples restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons, carrying weapons while intoxicated, and carrying weapons into certain places such as churches and polling places.  
    Now that there is a direct conflict among the several federal courts of appeals, it is likely that the U.S. Supreme Court, which has not taken   a case on the meaning of the Second Amendment since the 1939 decision, will probably accept this case for review sometime later this year, and it could be scheduled for argument in the winter or spring of next year.  This could put the issue smack in the middle of the presidential campaign.
    Thoughts, Kossacks?

Tags: Second Amendment, gun control (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 71 comments

  •  Tip jar (7+ / 0-)

    If you think this is an important or interesting subject worth discussing

  •  Could be difficult for the Dems in 08 (3+ / 0-)

    My concern about this is the "passion gap" on this issue.  While most voters probably think that the residents of the District of Columbia should be able to enact whatever gun control laws they want through the Democratic process -- as residents of New York City and some other cities have done -- the voters on the other side of the issue, those who dislike and disagree with gun control laws, feel very strongly about the issue and will not only base their votes on it, but will turn out to volunteer and work hard for candidates on that basis.

  •  Silberman is the devil (5+ / 0-)

    devil = hardcore activist (republican) judge who uses his seat as a political tool and nothing more.  I'm not surprised by the decision.

    But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have laid my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. -- Yeats

    by Bill O Rights on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 07:53:28 AM PDT

    •  His opinion reads like a conservative article (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcfly, Pozzo, ChapiNation386

      It's 58 pages long and contains very little discussion of the real-world consequences of the laws and their application, or the changes in the country and society since the late 18th century, and seems written primarily to justify the existence of an individual right to keep and bear firearms as an academic point.  In fact, the dissent by Judge Henderson starts out by noting that "exhaustive opinions on the origin, purpose and scope of the Second Amendment to the Unites States Constitution have proven to be irresistable to the federal judiciary."

      •  "Real-World Consequences" (6+ / 0-)

        I'm someone who believes that believes in expansive & wide interpretation of civil liberties & the bill of rights. I believe in a 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" but I also believe in "rights or speech", a "right to privacy" and the right to be "free from unreasonable search & seizure" & the exclusionary rule.

        All of those rights have real-world consequences, but they're there for a reason. We could have a more "orderly" society if we told everyone to shut up, let the cops search people's homes at will and did away with "Miranda", but it wouldn't be right.

        Liberty sometimes means allowing people the right to be wrong.....

        •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ChapiNation386

          So I take it you agree with the decision striking down regulations on private ownership and use of handguns and shotguns.  What about rifles?  Automatic rifles?
              I'm interested in your thoughts.

          •  Just a note (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rimjob, Shadan7, Rex Manning

            Owning a full-auto weapon has been severely restricted since 1934.  You need a special federal permit, which is expensive and difficult to get.

            This is why the so-called "assault" weapons ban was utter bullshit.  Owning true "assault" (as in, full-auto capacity) firearms has been restricted since 1934, not 1994!

            That ridiculous ban earned certain Democrats political points, but that's all the ban was.

            So the hysteria about Bush letting it sunset was just that:  hysteria.  The only difference the sunset made was that I can now buy high capacity magazines for my semi-automatic rifle, for less than $50 a magazine.  The ban said that any such magazine manufactured after 1994 was illegal, so the only ones you could buy were the ones made before 1994.

            You could still buy them, in other words, they just ate up your pocketbook.


            Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed. -- Bruce Springsteen

            by Plutonium Page on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 09:04:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, but... (0+ / 0-)

              What about "semi-automatic versions" of fully automatic weapons?  It's been a long time, but a friend of mine from high school legally purchased a semi-auto 9mm, although I can't remember the exact make.  It was only missing one piece to make it fully automatic.  The plans for that piece were readily available and easily machined (per my friend, whose father owned a machine shop).  I have no idea if he ever converted his to fully automatic or not.  This was all circa 1986 or so.

              How are such weapons effectively regulated by the 1934  legislation?

              Government can't restrict free speech, but corporations can? WTF

              by kyoders on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 10:03:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Full auto (0+ / 0-)

                You are not allowed to alter a weapon to be full auto without getting a permit first and then paying a $200 tax. Since this law has been enacted there have been only 2-3 violent crimes with full auto firearms in the last 50 years or so. Of these crimes 2 of them were commited by corrupt police officers that had access to full auto weapons. Restricting semis to prevent full auto weapons crimes is moot. Why create a solution when there is no problem?      

        •  What's the reason you see? (0+ / 0-)

          Rimjob, you wrote:  "I believe in a 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" but I also believe in "rights or speech", a "right to privacy" and the right to be "free from unreasonable search & seizure" & the exclusionary rule.  All of those rights have real-world consequences, but they're there for a reason."

          What do you see as the reason for the Second Amendment?

          •  From One Of The Founders (5+ / 0-)

            No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

            --Thomas Jefferson

            •  So, what is protected? (0+ / 0-)

              What is the right that the amendment protects?  Obviously, "the right to keep and bear arms," but what does that mean to you?  Do you think it means that the government cannot prohibit private possession of automatic rifles, for instance?  

              •  I Think They Can.... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Rex Manning

                I believe Congress can "regulate" through the Commerce Clause (which I believe is the basis for the automatic weapons ban in the Firearm Owners Protection Act).

                •  Congress can't infringe on a constitional right (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't see how, if that's what the right means.  If the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own militia-type firearms (which I don't believe it does), then neither the commerce clause nor any other authority gives Congress the right to infringe upon that core constitutional right.  So, it seems to me, if the Second Amendment protects the right of ordinary citizens to own a common soldier's firearm, then neither Congress nor any other governmental entity can infringe upon the right to own automatic rifles.

                  •  semantics is why (0+ / 0-)

                    Jefferson was talking as a man stuck in his time.  At that time they had single shot muskets and revolvers, swords and bayonets etc.  Because the colonists had access to the same weaponry as the British had is the sole reason we were able to not only hold ground but eventually win.  

                    In todays world the idea of a militia is laughable.  Bush is a tyrant by deed and therefore deserves overthrowing.  Feel free to pick up a gun and tell him to step down.  Get every single gun owner to pick up a gun and tell him to step down.  He might just do it, then again he, and those like him; including several generals we've gotten to know over the last couple of years, you know the generals who think that going to Iraq was a piece of cake, who allowed Mission Accomplished to be promoted, who still think the mission CAN be accomplished, might just decide to seize power permanently by launching an attack on a small town to prove to all that they had the will to use "any means necessary" to put down a rebellion.

                    No matter how many guns we have as a whole, without the military being with us 100%, we wouldn't have a chance against modern military hardware.  We might be able to harrass them and incite a second civil war but a president with the military in his back pocket would be pretty secure against a militia armed with hunting rifles and handguns.  They would have air superiority.  They would have the first strike capabiility.  They would hold all the cards.

                    Yes, the second amendment does empower a militia.  But in my opinion that provision is moot and could be stricken as a militia vs an occupying force is unnececessary so long as we have the nuclear arsenal to prevent foreign countries from thinking invasion was possible.  I think I've explained why a militia is an improbable idea in overthrowing the government.  As written a sole gun owner doesn't have the right to shit.  

                    But then the Constitution most definitely does not have a provision that prevents the joining of church and state.  So long as christian lawmakers allowed jews, muslims, etc to freely worship the god police from the south could definitely influence a Bushlike puppet to call for biblical laws to be included in new legislation.  This scenario is unlikely but the "Wall dividing church and state" is not in the Constitution.  What is being honored in a lot of these cases is the intent of its framers, like the person above who quoted Jefferson's "no person be disbarred from gun ownership...", that may be what the framer's, including TJ meant, but they most definitely did not explicitly write that right into the amendment;just the same the separation of church and state is merely implied through letters circulating between, I believe, John Adams, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton.

                    However, that honoring of tradition can fall to the wayside as easily as honoring Habeus Corpus.

                    But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have laid my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. -- Yeats

                    by Bill O Rights on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 04:26:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  whatever (0+ / 0-)

                      Where to begin...

                      Jefferson was talking as a man stuck in his time.  At that time they had single shot muskets and revolvers, swords and bayonets etc.

                      According to the logic of this argument you would advocate suppressing free speech on television, radio, and the internet because free speech only applies to print and people within an earshot

                      No matter how many guns we have as a whole, without the military being with us 100%, we wouldn't have a chance against modern military hardware.

                      Really, then I guess we are winning in Iraq, because the insurgency and militas don’t have a chance against our modern military and hardware.

                      but they most definitely did not explicitly write that right into the amendment

                      What part of "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" don’t you understand? It is an explicit right to individuals.

                  •  Depends On What "Regulated" & "Infringed" Mean (0+ / 0-)

                    The text of the Amendment....

                    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                    If you interpret the word "militia" to consist of armed citizens as a whole & referring to "the people" in the second half of the text, the words "well regulated" would seem to indicate that Congress can pass laws regulating what's reasonable. However, those regulations can't infringe on this right, which would be a delicate dance.

                    For example, there's a 1st Amendment Right of Speech, but that doesn't prohibit copyright laws and libel & slander laws to define the limits of speech.

              •  Automatic rifles have been banned... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Rimjob

                ...since 1934.

                •  Would such a ban survive? (0+ / 0-)

                  If the Supreme Court did happen to adopt the D.C. Circuit Court's position that the Second Amendment protects an individual right, rather than that of the 9 previous courts of appeals that have decided that it protects only a collective state right, wouldn't such a ban on the standard infantry firearm be subject to a successful challenge as violating the Second Amendment's ban on Congressional infringement on the right to keep and bear militia weapons?

            •  I don't think it is possible (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Shadan7, ShowMeProgressive

              for armed citizens to prevent tyranny by the government.

              I know it can prevent the tyranny of a burglar or rapist which is why I support the 2nd with no new federal restrictions.

              I am an atheist. Please don't hate me for my freedom.

              by kd texan on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 08:58:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They could (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Shadan7, kd texan, Rex Manning

                I know it seems unlikely, but experience in Iraq and Vietnam has shown that the willingness to accept higher casualties is an equalizer against a superior occupying force. We're talking about much higher casualties like 100 to 1. Americans are too rich and comfortable to go for that much bloodshed (at least compared to the rest of the world), but that could change in the future.

              •  Some sixty million Americans own firearms. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                kd texan

                That's a potential sixty million strong guerilla force.

                How many government troops could be fielded to suppress  the population? 250,000 maybe.

                250,000 vs. sixty million. It would be impossible to for government forces to control us (leaving aside that few military personnel would be willing to participate).

                No. The best way for the government to plan an oppressive dictatorship is to start early by banning firearms. An unarmed population is easy to control.

                •  The govt. would just form a "green zone" (0+ / 0-)

                  and try to hold that. However, the issue really is: what would it take for the citizens to take up arms? Obviously a slow erosion of constitutional rights would not spark an uprising (habeas, warrantless wiretapping), but I do agree with you that an attempt to repeal/suspend the 2nd might just be that spark.

                  I am an atheist. Please don't hate me for my freedom.

                  by kd texan on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 10:11:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  ridiculous statments (0+ / 0-)

                  60 million people won't matter if the people in charge of the government have the will to use "any means necessary" to retain power.  Nukes trump even the Desert Eagle .50.

                  The only way a revolution would be possible in this country is if the military was united with the people against the government.  Peaceful revolutions happen every two years, we call them elections.

                  The last pt?  Armed or unarmed we are easy to control precisely for the reason that the government holds the big guns.  You get a 50 cal machine gun turret and mount it to your BMW, who cares?  You'll kill a few cops or soldiers before they kill you, ergo, your armed "resistance" will be short lived.  How you going to organize an entire country at once?  We can't even get enough people thinking that their right to vote is worthy of a trip to the polls.  

                  1.  Gun ownership does not lower crime rates
                  1.  A criminal with a mind for violence is going to have the advantage versus someone who has a gun but no training every single time unless the criminal calls ahead and says "I'm coming to kill you and your family, I'm coming through the front door at precisely 11:30pm.  See ya soon."

                  For every civilian that prevents a crime by owning a gun I'll bet several more gun owners are killed despite having the weapon.  I don't have proof of this not going to look it up.  If you can disprove the statement the info will probably be easy to find on the NRA propaganda page.

                  Right now on the news, "homicides up by double digit percentages in many cities."  We have a large percentage of the population owning weapons.  If gun ownership prevents crime how can crime go up as more people own guns?  The answer is simple, just as many guns are in the hands of criminals as in non-criminals.  Criminals have the will to use their gun and like as not have wasted time using the weapon on pop cans or something.  The gun-toting civilian might go to the shooting range once a year? every couple years?  A mugger walks up to you with his hand in his pocket and may be pting a gun at you as they ask for your wallet.  You got time to draw, aim, and fire?  If the mugger is faking a weapon then you are probably going to be charged with a crime if you shoot him, just as cops can get charged for accidental shootings.  If the mugger isn't faking the weapon, then you'll be dead or dying before you have a chance to draw your weapon.  

                  A better solution?  Education.  Public Works Projects to bring the poor up the financial ladder.  Supporting your local goods suppliers and not feeding the corporate beast.  Educating voters to elect competent officials who work to draft laws that are fair, enforcable and effective.  

                  Another solution to fear forcing you to purchase a gun?  Learn a martial art.  Have your significant other learn a martial art.  Have your kids learn a martial art.  Besides giving you added self-confidence you'll have the added bonus of staying in shape or getting in shape and your kids are less likely to become couch potatoes and video game junkies, less likely to fall in with the wrong group of friends, less likely to bow to peer pressure.  

                  This goes to the person a couple of paragraph's up as well as anyone else who thinks gun ownership has a benefit as "militia" enabler or for personal safety.
                  In my opinion the two are one and the same, excuses for maintaining a law that isn't needed.  I understand it isn't going away any time soon but all that needs to happen is for a president with the will to think of the Bill of Rights as his own personal etch a sketch, kinda like Bush vis-a-vis his administrations dismantling of the Constitution via a multitude of signing statements and stupid laws like the Patriot Act.\

                  If you won't rise up with force against a government who would deprive you of your privacy or freedom from search and seizure or your right to habeus corpus as this government has then I would bet a billion dollars that if the government told you to throw down your gun you'd do so without a fight.

                  But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have laid my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. -- Yeats

                  by Bill O Rights on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 04:04:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  1st Amendment Prevents You From Speaking (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rimjob

          in the information age, because it protects the half dozen giga-corporate owners of what has become society's public square from the people, from democracy and from civilization.

          Sure you can speak to your neighor and to modest sized groups like this one, but even as a national Presidential candidate you have only very severely limited access to the electorate compared to the access those 5 owners of our public reality have.

          I imagine even you agree that the 2nd amendment cannot be extended to nuclear weapons, weapons of astronomically greater destruction over both space and time that were unimagined by our framers.

          Assuming you do, we have established that even "rights" have boundaries that can change or arise new out of changing circumstances that create new risks to society.

          We have to accept limits--probably progressive limits--on individual rights like the right to bear arms and also the right to speak--or else the exercise of those rights by forces that are thousands to billions of times more powerful than many of us will confiscate if not destroy our entire system.

          We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

          by Gooserock on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 08:50:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, it's the misapplication of the 1st Amendment (0+ / 0-)

            via the insane doctrine of corporate personhood that prevents you from speaking.

          •  Rights Have Boundaries (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Shadan7

            Agreed.

            All of the rights listed in the amendments to the constitution have limits. I am the last person who is going to argue for the resurrection of the sale of automatic weapons, or that someone should be allowed to have a Howitzer in their back yard. However, I think that if someone wants to own a handgun, and they're a law abiding citizen, they should be allowed to......

            •  Policy and Constitutional Force (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              GreenSooner, twcollier

              However, I think that if someone wants to own a handgun, and they're a law abiding citizen, they should be allowed to......

              That isn't the same thing as saying that the 2nd Amendment bars legal limits or bans on the ownership of weapons.  It's perfectly possible to say that the 2nd Amendment only exists to stop the Federal Government from effectively wiping out the militias that are under the control of the various States -- and that, while a Federal law banning all private possession of arms except for militia members would pass Constitutional muster, it would still be a bad law to pass simply from a policy perspective.

              "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

              by Pesto on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 09:43:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  i agree with this much more (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rimjob

          than the statement below

          I like the constitution.  I like the bill of rights.  doesn't mean every word should be honored as written.  Doesn't mean i don't think some things need revision.

          As i mention below the framers were going by what they knew at the time.  They had great foresight in some regards but horrible lapses in other areas.  

          I'd like to see the electoral college be either modified or deleted.  I'd like to see the term limits included.  I'd like to see the 2nd amendment revised to say that law abiding citizens can bear hunting rifles and small caliber handguns for personal protection.  With a clause that limits clip size on both to eliminate idiots from claiming that an AK47 is a hunting rifle.  

          I understand that they wanted to be vague so that the laws could be adapted as times changed but in my opinion change has outpaced much of the language.  Back in their day government service was considered an honor and was done for a pittance (a minimum wage if you will).  Term limits weren't necessary for two reasons, life expectancy was short and the educated couldn't afford to be public servants.  Nowadays term limits are necessary.  Public service isn't considered an honor it's considered an occupation in and of itself.  Unfortunately public service pays well at the local level and if career politicians make it to DC the big bucks start rolling in making it more likely that the Public Service aspect is les likely to be observed.  

          The second reason is corporate/govt marriage.  The lobbyists and fundraisers etc don't want to have to bribe new politicians every few years so they pour massive amts of funding into ensuring that incumbents retain power.  We need an amendment that definitively separates corporations from govt especially banking.  There is no reason why the well being of this country's economy is place in the hands of a private corporate entity such as the Federal Reserve.  The pres may get to nominate the Chairman but he has no power to do shit.  Clinton couldn't call up Greenspan and order him to lower or raise interest rates.  Luckily it looks like Bush made a good choice but in the future we might be just as likely to end up with an overly confident economist who thinks that his MBA thesis contains all the answers.

          Also, I'd like to see an amendment that clearly spells out a wall between church and state so we don't even have to debate about whether or not a church is a taxable corporation or have Pres. mcFaith trying to ship a couple billion dollars away from education and into "faith-based" money grabs.

          But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have laid my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. -- Yeats

          by Bill O Rights on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 04:54:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That is the point!!! (0+ / 0-)

        Strict interpretation of the Constitution is not conservative activism. The SC applying "modern concerns" or "making rulings based on foreign laws" is liberal judicial activism. Read the law- has it been violated – yes or no. Judges should not be making social policy decisions that is for the legislature to do. If you don’t like the 2nd, then petition your senator and rep to get it rewritten or removed, otherwise read it for what it is and stfu.    

  •  Any of the federal judges live in the (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    twcollier, mcfly, ChapiNation386

    District of Columbia? Well, that's not the issue. But still, I am willing to wager that none do. It is the poor, the youth, and the adult bystandes in DC who are being decimated by the gun culture around them.

    •  "Judicial activism?" (4+ / 0-)

      Sure smacks of "legislating from the bench" by "unelected judges substituting their own views for the democratically expressed will of the people."  But I guess it's o.k. when done in service of a conservative principle.
          Like Bush v. Gore, in December of 2000...
         

      •  Whatever... (0+ / 0-)

        Dems and Repubs both say it is judicial activism when the ruling doesn't go their way. Gun bans violate the Constitution, period. What part of shall not be infringed don’t you understand. The reality is activist liberal judges have run amok since the 60’s. There are many "rights" that are due to liberal activist judges interpretation of the Constitution, such as Miranda and abortion, that are not explicitly written in the Constitution. Don’t complain about judicial activism when the judge interprets the amendment literally, you have just gotten used to liberal judges loose interpretations of Constitution and overreaching.  

    •  How much DC gun crime.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rex Manning

      is committed with legal registered firearms?

      How has the gun ban for law abiding citizens worked at preventing crime in DC?

      Why should a law abiding citizen who happens to live in DC be subject to an unconstitutional ban on guns?

      Gun control is a LOSING issue for the Democratic Party.

      Embrace the Reality.
      Obama08

      •  Agree may be a losing political issue for Dems (0+ / 0-)

        But the D.C. police are strongly in favor of the ban.  It seems to me it's probably pretty effective in this sense:  if a suspect gets picked up for questioning in  a criminal investigation and they're a D.C. resident with a firearm, chances are that's enough to hold them right there.

      •  Might this be a state by state issue? (0+ / 0-)

        I can't check the diary, but if the law was enacted by a vote of the people, then it would be evidence that at least DC residents support it. In Red states, perhaps it would not be and it is likely Democratic politicians adjust to it. But in Blue states, I wonder about that. These gun bans to not hamper hunting.

        •  it seems the people DO want to be armed (0+ / 0-)

          "An NBC4-TV survey showed by midnight that, out of 3,437 votes cast, 3,003 (87 percent) believe that people in Washington, D.C., ought to be able to get guns, and only 434 (13 percent) opposed the idea," Snyder stated.

          In addition, a poll by radio news station WTOP "indicated that 88 percent agreed with the court decision, and only 12 percent disagreed with it," he added.

          The 2nd isn't about hunting, it is about preserving liberty.

  •  DC Court Ruling Will Be Overturned (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    twcollier, mcfly

    Both Roberts and Kennedy will be the swing votes.  It's a National Security issue, and despite a few recent "you can't call everything national security" rulings, I expect the Supreme Court will defer to the Government on this one.

    Physicist Wolfgang Pauli upon reading a paper: "This isn't right, this isn't even wrong."

    by ChapiNation386 on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 08:14:59 AM PDT

    •  Overturn on the Second Amendment interpretation? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ChapiNation386

      Think Roberts and Kennedy will overturn it on the Second Amendment question?  In other words, think they'll reach and decide the Second Amendment issue and interpret it as protecting only a collective right of the states as opposed to an individual right to possess firearms?  Or will they find an alternative grounds and essentially duck the Second Amendment issue?

      •  I Just Suggested Alternative Grounds (0+ / 0-)

        That they could dodge it with.  National Security gets used to dodge all sorts of questions throughout the entire Bill of Rights (including voting rights).

        The Court could hold that the capital city of the United States of America must be secure, pull a Bush v. Gore (basically say that this ruling should only be applied as precedent to cases concerning Washington DC) and be done with it.

        Physicist Wolfgang Pauli upon reading a paper: "This isn't right, this isn't even wrong."

        by ChapiNation386 on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 10:35:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I Support all Ten of the Bill of Rights (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shadan7

    I'm a registered Democrat.

    I agree that this is a key ruling. As I said in a comment yesterday:

    You Should Read the Opinion

    Which includes a long discussion of the competing legal theories of individual versus collective rights, notes the similar use of the phrase "the people" in the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth amendments and standing legal doctrine which holds that these amendments codify individual rights and goes on to specifically state:

       In sum, the phrase "the right of the people," when read intratextually and in light of Supreme Court precedent, leads us to conclude that the right in question is individual.

    Uniform support of the entire Bill of Rights -- including the Second Amendment -- and the acknowledgement that the specified rights belong to individuals seems the soundest stance moving forward, both in principle and pragmatically.

    •  What do you see as the contours of the right? (0+ / 0-)

      I've read the opinion, and I find it a little confusing and incomplete (if I can say that about a 58-page opinion.)  The majority relies on the breadth of the definition of "militia" in 1792 as including all free, white, able-bodied males from 17 to 44 (I think it was) as support for the proposition that it is an individual right belonging to members of the militia rather than the militia as an organization.  But it then says the right applies to everyone -- male and female, able-bodied or not.  It also looks in some detail at the type of weapons required of militia members the Militia Act of 1792 (muskets, shot and powder for most, sabres for officers, horses for cavalry, breast-plates for dragoons, "spontoons" for artillery, etc.), then says that it can't be limited to just 18-th century weapons.  But it can be limited (somehow) to the modern counterparts of those weapons, and assumes that "cannons" must be excluded.  My question at that point was:  what about automatic rifles?  Every common soldier of that day carried a flintlock musket, and that is what they were required to possess and show up for militia duty with.  So, today, every common soldier carries a rifle capable of fully automatic fire.  Surely that is the modern counterpart of the militia member's musket?  So, does the majority believe that a law restricting the possession of automatic rifles would violate the Second Amendment?  They don't say.
          What do you think?  

      •  Consider The Comparison Between (0+ / 0-)

        A Kentucky Longrifle and a Brown Bess Musket.

        The Brown Bess had a faster reloading cycle and less accuracy because of its lack of rifling.

        The Kentucky Longrifle had a slower reloading cycle, but greater range and accuracy. Indeed, it was the 18th Century equivalent of a .50 caliber sniper rifle if you're using a direct comparison.

        If you're comparing the two on the basis of which weapon represented the more advanced technology in the hands of civilians, that would be the Kentucky Longrifle.

        Sidearms were also permitted and common at that time, although not specifically required.

        If I use your comparison of the standard weapon of a "common soldier" then and now, I think there is a case to be made for civilian ownership of automatic weapons. Pragmatically, I think it unlikely that such a right would be upheld in Federal Court, because some sort of additional balancing test would be found and applied, although I'm not at all sure about the Constitutional soundness of that approach.

        As for able bodied white men of a particular age, I think it a good thing that an elderly disabled black   woman in Atlanta was able to possess a firearm for the defense of her home and I think she was well within her rights when she fired at two police officers executing a bogus no-knock drug warrant on her home. What is regrettable is that their return fire was more accurate than her shots.

        My bottom line sense is that reasonable deterrent to official misconduct, up to and including the right to use equivalent deadly force in self-defense, is an essential right without which we have ceased to be a free society.

        Any doubts I may have had about that in the past have been utterly washed away by the rampant lawlessness and authoritarian actions of the current Administration.

  •  Guns are our theatrical props (0+ / 0-)

    American politics is simply morphing into bad theater. The guns are the props for a violent and morally bankrupt society in which the collapse of social capital leaves a war of all against all. How long before camo-clad, obese SUV drivers will be wearing holsters in public when they order their super-sized Big Macs?

    We are producing an increasing number of useful goods and services for increasingly useless people. -- Ivan Illich

    by ANKOSS on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 08:29:46 AM PDT

    •  How long before? (1+ / 0-)

      If 'concealed' counts, the answer is 'right now over most of the country'.  With shall-issue licenses in many states, with 'Vermont concealed carry' (any adult citizen not elsewise encumbered may carry) in Vermont.  (That law was signed into place by Governor Dean, as I recall).

      •  I'm talking about holsters on the hip! (0+ / 0-)

        A manly man will carry his gun openly to show how strong and virile he is. As he waddles toward his Exterminator XLZ Super-SUV, pushing a cart full of junk food, the gun on his hip shows that he can kill anyone who threatens him. This is the glorious future of America.

        We are producing an increasing number of useful goods and services for increasingly useless people. -- Ivan Illich

        by ANKOSS on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 08:58:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hysterical Funniness Incoming (0+ / 0-)

    The likely R nominee at the moment is Giuliani, who is well known to be an opponent of Second Amendment rights, and he will get to handle the burning potato a bit before his party's national convention.

    Incidentally, I would strongly urge readers do their own research on prior court findings, rather than rely on the above.  In particular, the finding in the 1939 Miller decision (after Miller was dead, with his side not having an attorney in attendance on the case) was that the lower court should not have taken judicial notice that sawed off shotguns are a standard infantry arm, but should have at least allowed the question to be debated, i.e., at least allowed the government to present arguments that a sawed off shotgun was not a standard arm carried by soldiers.  

  •  Of course (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    twcollier

    Someone with standing has to appeal, and that may or may not happen, in which case the Supreme Court may not get to rule on the matter.

    Someone else can tell us if the D.C. City attorneys are independent from the US Department of Justice, DC being a purely Federal creation, or if the Attorney General of the United States makes the final call.

    •  D.C. officials have said they intend to appeal (0+ / 0-)

      The District of Columbia is a party to the case, and D.C. officials have already said that they will appeal the decision if it becomes final.  Unless Congress actually steps in to prevent that, I would expect an appeal.  Whether the Court accepts it for review is slightly less likely, but still pretty likely to happen in my view.

    •  I believe... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cardinal, twcollier, mcfly

      the D.C. government is separate on this count.  And my prediction is that the en banc D.C. Circuit reverses in a plurality opinion with no one controlling majority rationale (some will say no standing for the challengers, some will adopt the dissent's "Second Amendment doesn't apply to D.C.," and some will explicitly adopt "collective rights").

      SCOTUS most likely denies cert in such a circumstance, or, if it grants, upholds the statute 7-2 or 6-3.  Only Thomas has taken the "individual rights" approach to the Second in prior opinions.  Breyer, Stevens, Ginsberg, and Souter will all uphold the statute.  Roberts and Kennedy will find a way around speaking on the Second Amendment issues (probably either standing or "no application to D.C."), with Scalia probably joining.  Thomas is the only sure vote to affirm this opinion, and Alito is a wild card.

      •  Very informative (0+ / 0-)

        Thanks, prof!

      •  agreed (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        twcollier

        On the one hand, the public will find out just how little support there is for the individual-rights approach, even among conservative jurists.  On the other hand, the loud minority of gun-rights activists could be swung into action in an election year.  So I really hope they deny cert.

        If there really were a radical black Muslim country-club elitist in the race, I'd probably vote for him just for novelty's sake.

        by cardinal on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 09:06:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Be Careful Here (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          twcollier
          The polling data shown Americans are conflicted on guns. While a majority (54%) supports restrictions on purchases of guns (i.e. let's at least check and make sure that the buyer is not a felon), they are also against restrictions on individual ownership of handguns by a 2 to 1 majority. Support for the ban on assault rifles seems to depend (as all polling questions do) on the wording. For example, 50% favor a ban when asked "Are you for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell, or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles?" while 46% oppose. But at the same time, 60% were unhappy that the 1994 ban expired. Based on the polling data, 10% of the population could be called NRA gun nuts, with another 20-25% sympathetic to their view.

          On my street in Columbus, OH, the liberals are the gun owners. My next-door neighbor wrote the biggest selling cover story in Esquire magazine's history "The Case For Guns" (Sept 1981). The guy across the street has a couple of AK47s. I've got a .22 and a shotgun. Other neighbors have handguns and a variety of rifles and shotguns. And yet we are pro-choice, pro-environment, mostly pro-union, pro gov't sponsored health care, pro education spending, etc and we all vote consistently for the Dems. While I agree that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to preserve state militias and not guarantee individual firearms ownership, I wish the gov't would just leave us alone on this issue.

          -- You are all individuals! -- I'm not! -- Shut up! Be quiet!

          by Skjellifetti on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 11:17:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Let it go to the Supremes (0+ / 0-)

    and let them debate the meaning of "well-regulated miltia" as well...it's funny how everybody seems to over look that part of the 2nd...

  •  I would love for this to get to the Supreme Court (0+ / 0-)

    If, by some miracle, they uphold the ruling without ducking the issue, this'll go a long way to help law-abiding gun owners fight all the loony hoplophobic legislation out there.

    On the flip side, overturning the ruling would be VERY bad for gun owners, though.

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