Daily Kos

General Pace: US not "well-served" by the constitution

Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 08:51:31 AM PDT

Been a while since I've written a diary.  Many of you have far more to say than I do, and most of it is said well.  But this latest zinger from General Pace compels me to speak.  I agree with the standard reasons for opposing "Don't ask, don't tell" - it is discriminatory, impossible to apply in any way representing a uniform manner, and it deprives us of thousands of desperately needed troops during a time of war.  But I want to expand on his statement, "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is okay to be immoral in any way."

So, General Pace, are you saying that you do not believe we are well served by the constitution?  The constitution absolutely protects our right to be immoral except where specific acts or words are prohibited.  Unless we as a society pass laws about a certain topic, then one man's immorality is another man's devout faith.  It would not be much of a stretch to suggest that the establishment clause specifically protects immorality!

Oh, that's not what you meant, is it?  You were referring to a military policy, and your use of the general term the "United States" was not intended to refer to everyone?  Fine, let's look at that.  You do not want "acceptance" of immorality to be our policy - your words.  Well, I have to admit that while I am not an expert, I believe that the history of the U.S. military and its rules backs you up in terms of the letter of the law.  If I'm a well-trained, badly needed officer - let's say special forces - in whom the army has invested six figures over many years, and I decide to sleep with my neighbor's wife while on leave at home, I could theoretically be court-martialed (note: someone correct me if I'm wrong about this).

Is that wise?  Am I really undermining morale?  Is the country safer now that I am not available for combat?  I don't think so.  But wait, you say, we don't really go after people every time something like this happens.  We use our judgement.  Ah, judgement.  You mean the judgement of one man that something is immoral and the judgement of another that something is not?  I agree, we as Americans rely heavily on the judgement of the men and women in our armed forces.  And we really have no choice, given the horrific nature of the battlefield.

General Pace, the concept of prohibiting immorality among the troops is not new.  But it has always been inconsistent with the consitution these troops are protecting.  You cannot expect people to make correct judgement calls if you try to force them to adhere to a stricter standard of behavior than that envisioned by the constitution and our national laws.  I know many veterans (I am not one) will disagree with this observation, and my intent is not to offend them.  Most soldiers DO make good judgement calls, but it is in spite of, not because of this policy.  With this kind of strict discipline, you can get unit cohesion, sure, but you would be stupid to expect that when faced with the harsh reality of battle, they are fully prepared to use the independent judgement required of any person confronting new and horrible situations.

The tighter you crack down, the harder you try to force morality on people, the more you create bottled up tension that ends up exploding.  We as a society can't even agree that killing is wrong, so how can we possibly expect to have any policy about something as personal about who you sleep with?

So, General Pace, I close with a question for you.  In light of the fact that you believe the military is served by a policy that violates the constitution and undertrains the critical skill of judgement, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask you "WHY DO YOU NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS?"

Tags: Peter Pace, gays in the military, don't ask don't tell, Iraq (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 9 comments

  •  It is bullshit (4+ / 0-)

    It is simple gay bashing, no different from Ann Coulter except that it is couched in different language.

    Its amazing that everyone gets all in a tizzy about what a nut-job "pundit" says, and is willing to ignore what the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs says.

    We should demand his resignation.

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 08:58:39 AM PDT

  •  I suspect the attack on gays.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shadan7, snakelass, ImpeachKingBushII

    ...is one of many excuses that will be used, from Clinton's fault, to wet powder (in the desert), for his failure to "win" in Iraq.

    Put on your flack jackets....INCOMING!

    Our children are not born to hate, they are raised to hate. ~Thomas della Peruta

    by suspiciousmind on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 09:00:17 AM PDT

  •  I served on a ship in the Navy...... (8+ / 0-)

    And everytime we pulled into the Phillipines the quarterdeck watch always had a big box of condoms to give out to everyone going ashore for liberty. Yes, they were for protection against disease, but I never heard of anyone taking them who weren't going out to get laid.

    There were VERY FEW sailors who had wives/husbands/serious relationships in the P.I.

    Hey General- don't tell me morality is on the list of things you enforce on our soldiers/sailors.

    You can support the troops at Votevets.org

    by rickeagle on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 09:05:00 AM PDT

  •  Pace has no right to lecture on morality... (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    simaramis, Lying eyes, dj angst, mmcole, LynneK

    ...War "on its face is immoral" even in the best of circumstances, even when you are directly threatened or attacked by another nation. Saddam never did and we killed him and laid waste to his nation. Osama bin Laden attacked America and he still lives as "Commander-in-Chief of al-Qaeda". Nobody cares about his sexual preferences and I doubt I would ask him about it before I put a bullet between his eyes. War is truly hell. The only thing that really counts is, "Are you willing to die in defense of our nation"? Not who you're sleeping with.

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 09:06:15 AM PDT

  •  Geezus! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    snakelass

    Today we are hearing of troops with serious medical conditions from combat or training accidents being rubber stamped for return to Iraq because of critical troop shortages - yet drag out this gay thing because of - what?

    If that man/woman can competently operate a rifle on up, I don't care if they french-kiss dogs, we need them and if they are willing to serve honorably, what is the deal?

  •  Our "smart" bombs had morality (0+ / 0-)

    written all over them along with Saddam's name.  Its a shame they all missed Bad Man Numero Uno.

    Every last aspect of the war and occupation of Iraq has twisted, dilluted and ignored morals. Pace has just boiled it down to a new essence, "If it ain't Gay its OK!"

    I'm glad his priorities are straight.

  •  Blow bath steam job (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    As pointed out elsewhere in other diary comments love making between Armed Forces personnel and his or her spouse that includes oral sex is grounds for court martial, conviction, and imprisonment as specified in the military code of conduct. Gee, no wonder the Generals got so twisted about Clinton. He got something that was forbidden to them even though RHIP.

    Obama doesn't look like Thomas Jefferson, just Jefferson's children.

    by OHdog on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 10:00:38 AM PDT

  •  Immorality? What about the "comfort women" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    Anywhere there is a military base, there are prostitutes to serve them.

    Rape is a huge problem for female soliders, both in the academies and on the battlefield.

    Pace should address the most glaring immorality of our troops and forbid them to fraternize in any way with any local women, period. Raid the brothels.

    No?
    Then back off men who just want to be themselves.

Permalink | 9 comments