Daily Kos

Why in the world would progressives want to see Bibles in public classrooms? (with poll)

Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:15:00 PM PDT

The Christian right has been trying to get the Bible into the schools for decades, through inclusion of "Creation Science" in Biology texts, and "non-devotional" Bible courses.  The Church-State issues are obvious, and opposition from the left justifiably swift and fierce.  The controversy is now poised to take a different turn, and from other than the usual suspects.  Liberal academics are discussing the pros and cons of religious curricula in public schools with some decrying what one calls Americans' "religious illiteracy," professional associations of teachers acknowledging the necessity and distributing sample lesson plans, and first amendment activists promoting the notion (with important safeguards) rather than opposing it as might be expected.

Stephen Prothero is among those who have been advocating adding the study of religion to the curriculum of American public middle and high schools for some time.  With the March 13 release of his latest book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't (Harper Collins, ISBN: 9780060846701), he seems to have caught the attention of the mainstream media.  (This is not a book review, which is a good thing, since my copy is on order.)

Several newspapers have run articles on his book, and the issues it addresses, and CNN went so far as to feature as "insta-quiz's" some of the questions Prothero, chair of the Religion Department at Boston University, has been posing to his students over the last few years.  He reports that only 17% of his students could pass a very basic test on the world's religions.

I ask them to list the four Gospels, Roman Catholicism's seven sacraments, and the Ten Commandments. I ask them to name the holy book of Islam. They do not fare well.

[...]they inform me that Ramadan is a Jewish holiday, that Revelation is one of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, and that Paul led the Israelites on the Exodus out of Egypt. This year I had a Hindu student who couldn't name one Hindu scripture, a Baptist student who didn't know that "Blessed are the poor in spirit" is a Bible quote, and Catholic students unfamiliar with the golden rule.

         -- Prothero, "Worshiping in Ignorance," Chronicle of Higher Education, March 16, 2007 (Full article)

[If you want to see if you fare any better than Prothero's students on his 15-question test, an interactive version is available on the MSNBC-Newsweek website.  Link to quiz.]

Okay, but in an era when many Americans can't find Europe on a map, why should we care whether or not they can name a Hindu holy book, or distinguish a Bible quote from one of Benjamin Franklin?

Unfortunately, U.S. citizens today lack this basic religious literacy. As a result, many Americans are too easily swayed by demagogues. Few of us are able to challenge claims made by politicians or pundits about Islam's place in the war on terrorism, or about what the Bible says concerning homosexuality. This ignorance imperils our public life, putting citizens in the thrall of talking heads and effectively transferring power from the Third Estate (the people) to the Fourth (the press).

         -- Prothero, op cit.

Now we're talking.  This brings it out of the ivory tower of academia and into the realm of the nitty-gritty of electoral politics.  As recently as the eve of the mid-term elections, in a diary on Daily Kos, Markos "kos" Moulitsas Zúniga cited seven-term Alabama congressman, and then chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence, Terry Everett's inability to enumerate the differences between Sunnis and Shiites as idiocy, going so far as to proclaim:

This is why Republicans can't do anything right. This is why everything they touch turns to crap.

        -- Markos "kos" Moulitsas Zúniga, "Idiots," Daily Kos, Oct 17, 2006 (Link to kos's diary)

And kos might well have added that the Congressman was far from alone among his colleagues on the hill and in the agencies crafting mid-east policy in his ignorance of the religious beliefs which influence people, governments, movements, and events in that region.  The inspiration for kos's remarks are found in an op-ed piece which ran the same day in the New York Times by Jeff Stein, Congressional Quarterly's national security editor, in which the congressman's response to the question about the differences between Sunnis and Shiites was reported.  He had been asking the same question to a host of government officials for a long time, with consistently disturbing, if predictable, results.  He notes:

After all, wouldn’t British counterterrorism officials responsible for Northern Ireland know the difference between Catholics and Protestants? In a remotely similar but far more lethal vein, the 1,400-year Sunni-Shiite rivalry is playing out in the streets of Baghdad, raising the specter of a breakup of Iraq into antagonistic states, one backed by Shiite Iran and the other by Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states.

[...]

But so far, most American officials I’ve interviewed don’t have a clue. That includes not just intelligence and law enforcement officials, but also members of Congress who have important roles overseeing our spy agencies. How can they do their jobs without knowing the basics?

        -- Stein, "Can You Tell a Sunni from a Shiite," New York Times, October 17, 2006 (Full article) [Despite it's age, I recommend Stein's article as a "must read."]

Which brings us back to the issue at hand.  How can we, as citizens, hold our government officials accountable without ourselves having at least a basic understanding of the religious and cultural influences which are becoming such enormous factors in the issues we face both at home and abroad.  Those proposing a religious studies curriculum in the public schools argue that this logic leads to the conclusion that our schools cannot but fail to prepare the next generation of citizens and voters without providing them at least a basic knowledge of these religions and cultures.

Prothero, who in the quoted article can't resist pointing out the irony of a country in which such a vast majority self-identify as Christian yet cannot answer simple questions about even their own religion, is also quick to acknowledge that to teach about religion in a more effective way in our public classrooms is going to require both conservatives and progressives to give ground on positions they have traditionally held.

Progress on this score will take compromise, too. The secular left will need to yield on the dogma that religion has no place in the public square. The religious right will need to give up its desire to use our nation's classrooms for proselytizing purposes.

         -- Prothero, op cit.

In fact, the proposition may well face more opposition from the religious right than from professional educators or progressive partisans.  Typical of the position of teachers' groups is the following:

Knowledge about religions is not only a characteristic of an educated person, but it is also absolutely necessary for understanding and living in a world of diversity. Knowledge of religious differences and the role of religion in the contemporary world can help promote understanding and alleviate prejudice. Since the purpose of the social studies is to provide students with a knowledge of the world that has been, the world that is, and the world of the future, studying about religions should be an essential part of the social studies curriculum. Omitting study about religions gives students the impression that religions have not been and are not now part of the human experience. Study about religions may be dealt with in special courses and units or wherever and whenever knowledge of the religious dimension of human history and culture is needed for a balanced and comprehensive understanding.

         -- "Position Statement and Guidelines of the National Council for the Social Studies" as quoted in Religious Liberty in the Schools: Teaching About Religion", First Amendment Center, 2007 (Link to online edition)

It is noteworthy that the quote above is taken from a publication of the First Amendment Center, which not only considers the teaching of religion in the abstract, but provides educators a "how to"!

This is not to say that opposition on civil libertarian and ethical grounds is absent.  Susan Brooks Thistlewaites, President of Chicago Theological Seminary blogged passionately in that vein:

The study of religion can’t be something the government can prescribe "for your own good" like limiting the amount of trans-fat in food (and some would say even the fat limitations are intrusive on our freedom of choice). The faith dimension of religion would rightly rebel at such intrusion.

Religious pluralism cannot be maintained except when faith is completely free of government interference and you cannot neatly separate religion and faith. And we must protect not only the freedom of religion, but also the freedom from religion. There are those who believe, with a great deal of evidence on their side, that religion does a lot of harm and they want nothing to do with it. That view must also be respected.

         --Thistlewaite, "Learn About Other Faiths? Yes. Mandatory? NO!," Washington Post's "On Faith" blogs. (Link to full article)

I fully expect moderates and progressives, and certainly conservatives, to line up at both extremes of this debate.  It is certainly among those issues on which reasonable persons can legitimately and in good faith disagree.  I hope that all of us can resist any initial reflexive reactions, and seriously consider the arguments on both sides on their merits.  The stakes are simply too high.  It's not just a matter of avoiding the idiocy in the quoted dKos lament, nor even improving the effectiveness or integrity of our public education system.  It may well be a matter of survival in an era when religious forces have enormous influence, and are poorly understood, among our leaders, and the populace at large.

Postscript:  By way of full disclosure, the diarist jgilhousen is The Rev. John-Mark Gilhousen, an Augustinian priest, and longtime Democratic party activist and community organizer.

Poll

Should study of the world's religions be included in American public middle and high schools?

24%21 votes
41%36 votes
5%5 votes
6%6 votes
18%16 votes
2%2 votes

| 86 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Education, Church and State, Religion, schools (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 81 comments

  •  I could use some tips to assuage my embarassment (28+ / 0-)

    Despite a degree in religion, my score on the Prothero quiz was only 87%.  Passing, but still.

    Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

    by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:16:07 PM PDT

  •  The danger is the slippery slope. (8+ / 0-)

    I would be fine with historical-cultural study of the world's religions & spiritual traditions. It's a central part of many civilizations, past & present.

    Problem is, it opens the door for those who would choose to abuse the opportunity.

    On the other hand, a curriculum that shows many faiths & ethical traditions is more likely to blunt the efforts of those who try to hijack the course.

    "Not only do I want an elite president,
    I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me."
    -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08

    by pat208 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:20:30 PM PDT

    •  Absolutely! (7+ / 0-)

      Christian fundamentalists are already using such openings to push their religious views on students. As a teacher, I know that public schools already have textbooks telling children christian miricles are historical fact.

      Teaching about religion in a neutral, respectful way, examining it with critical thinking, would be very valuable. But can we trust the religious right not to use this as an opportunity to violate the First Amendment and push their beliefs on a captive audience?

      "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

      by foxfire burns on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:36:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In answer to your question, foxfire burns (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pat208, Owllwoman

        But can we trust the religious right not to use this as an opportunity to violate the First Amendment and push their beliefs on a captive audience?

        NO! We cannot trust them.

        Through all your faults and all my complaints, I still love you.

        by jayden on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:01:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Vigilance rather than surrender. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Panda, liberal atheist

        First, they are and will continue to do it without our "giving them an opening."  They need to be called to account on it.

        Second, no, we cannot trust them with anything.  All the more reason we need to arm our children with facts, and the tools they need to analyze them.  And again, pushing back hard when the abuses arise, and they certainly will arise.

        BTW, as a teacher, did you check out the First Amendment Center link above?  The linked document has a wealth of information for educators, including a concise multi-pronged test to apply to any subjects dealing with religion in the classroom.

        Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

        by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:01:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Toss in a few of the historical ones (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pat208, jgilhousen

      as well, be they mostly expired or 'heretical' branches of current major religions. Be good to understand both the siðr of the Vikings, and how their somewhat democratic society did not directly depend on religion for it's laws.

    •  I have trouble with slippery slope arguments... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, Panda, irishwitch

      and must have been asleep when they quit being regarded as classic fallacy.

      Sex education leads to promiscuity.
      Teaching about communism leads our children into its grip.
      Studying religion has the potential for advancing the Christian right.

      And so it goes.

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:10:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, you didn't miss a lesson. (0+ / 0-)

        There is nothing intrinsically wrong with slippery slope arguments. (Maybe you would prefer it to be reframed as a "bright line" issue?)

        The first two examples you provide are ridiculous, of course, as you intend them to be, but they're not even slippery slope arguments, actually.

        The issue here is how to make sure that if religion is permitted at all as a topic in public education that it is not subverted to be about the supremacy of one particular religion. What is your solution?

        "Not only do I want an elite president,
        I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me."
        -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08

        by pat208 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:15:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  slippery slope arguments (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jgilhousen

        are widely regarded as fallacy, but I think this is due to abuse, much like ad hominem arguments. The real question is whether the risk outweighs the possible benefits. In the case of well-structured comparative religions courses, I would say no.

    •  One thing about fundies is that (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pat208, liberal atheist, jgilhousen

      teaching always already opens up the possibility of twisting the topic to their ends.  That's not a reason to not teach a subject; it's all the more reason to vigilantly guard the curriculum (and, possibly, to make it easier for those nutjobs to homeschool; the more that are out of the school systems, the better)

      "[G]lobalization is...increasing the efficiency of resource allocation through stronger capital markets" - Barack Obama

      by burrow owl on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:09:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Vigilantly guard? How the hell to do that? (0+ / 0-)

        As the wise one said, "School Boards are the last refuge of the scoundrel." Local control, local elections, and people who can't get elected dog catcher run the show. And they're the ones who have been slipping creationism into curricula coast to coast.

        "Not only do I want an elite president,
        I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me."
        -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08

        by pat208 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:16:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The same as any other form of citizen oversight.. (3+ / 0-)

          show up to the school board meetings; organize your neighbors; vote the idiots out when necessary; and when all else fails, call the ACLU for support in hauling their butts into court.

          I'll spare you a recitation of a few of the myriad cases in which this formula has been applied to recalcitrant local school boards and committees successfully, even in locales situated in the reddest of states.

          (Just don't make me talk about Texas.)

          Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

          by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:27:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting question (4+ / 0-)

    A greater understanding of what minority (in this country) religions believe - and what they DON'T believe - could be very helpful, but only if it is done very sensitively and very carefully.

    Which is to say, the Bush administration should have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." --James Madison, Federalist 10

    by mrhelper on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:24:00 PM PDT

  •  Only with care to avoid endorsing religious indoc (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, Kingsmeg

    I agree with the concept that an fully informed public is necessary to protect our freedoms we (used) to have in this country. At the same time I fear the fundie foot in the door. That would lead to further erosion of rights. Ick

    If it is spelled correctly---it's a typo

    by alasmoses on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:25:40 PM PDT

  •  Ignorace is a disgrace (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, sherlyle

    not a sin as some would hold, but definitely a disgrace.

    Religion, like geography, is a part of our world and should be part of our educations.

    The history of our world over the past 6 years might have turned out better if POTUS 43 and his minions had a clue about either.

    "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

    by witchamakallit on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:25:58 PM PDT

  •  Religious Right objects (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Joe Bob, Panda, irishwitch

    It's not the secular left that is the problem.  The religious right objects to teaching that does properly honor Christianity and their beliefs.

    •  The proposal is already drawing flak... (0+ / 0-)

      from both the right and left.  You're spot on as to the crux for the evangelical fundamentalists.  I probably should have included some discussion of that in the diary, but took it as a "given."

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:04:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Everyone should watch (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mrhelper, Panda, irishwitch, jgilhousen

    Joseph Campbell's interviews with Bill Moyers and his series that aired on PBS several years ago.  this man really understood religion.

    "There are no happy endings in the Bush Administration". - Randall L. Tobias

    by MadRuth on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:28:03 PM PDT

  •  Keep religion out of public schools. period. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Joe Bob, tomhodukavich, alasmoses

    There is too much potential for abuse. Who would set the curriculum? Would it be federally mandated? Think what that would mean with the likes of Bushco in charge. Remember Kansas? Frankly, I don't trust christians when it comes to religion.

    Keep religious studies at the university level.

    Through all your faults and all my complaints, I still love you.

    by jayden on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:31:45 PM PDT

    •  I think religous proseletizing should be kept out (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Panda, irishwitch, jgilhousen

      but you can't understand history and sociology without understanding religious influences.  The hard question is can a Christian, for example,  teach Christian influences on history (both good and bad) without stating his or her own personal beliefs?  I think so. But I recognize the difficulty.  If a teacher can't at least appear to be impartial - he shouldn't be teaching.

      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter - MLK,Jr.

      by Embee on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:02:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I appreciate your argument... (0+ / 0-)

      but the college professors are telling us that H.S. grads are arriving with insufficient background in religion to engage in college level study on the subject.  That's what prompted Prothero to raise this issue in the first place.

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:18:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree with you, jayden. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jgilhousen

      While I believe evangelism and proselytization should not be allowed in public schools, I firmly believe a comparative religion course and/or religious history should be taught in a high school setting.

      The influences of religion can be found in Western literature, political thought, history, etc.

      It would be folly, IMHO, to categorically deny the study of religion for fear of giving the religious right something they already have:  a monopoly.

      I had come to an entirely erroneous conclusion which shows, my dear Watson, how dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data.

      by TheBigKahuna on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:15:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes But We Should Also Revise the Constitution (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Joe Bob, tomhodukavich

    to take into account, for example, the invention of realtime mass media which are very poorly addressed by the framers' concepts of "speech" and "press."

    The problem I see is that introducing comparative religion studies, like Constitutional amendments or a convention, would be extremely dangerous at this moment in time with such large forces at play that are so aggressively against rationality and cooperative citizenship.

    In theory I'm all for it.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:34:05 PM PDT

  •  Comparative Religions Study... (9+ / 0-)

    ...should be part of any liberal education.   Junior or senior year in high school is appropriate grade level for inclusion in curriculum.

    •  It should be an option for any liberal education (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarketTrustee

      at the university level. Local Boards of Education are known to be biased and prone to influence from extreme constituents. Our society has enough problems teaching our youth about the realities and responsibilities of sex. We can't even agree on a sex-ed curriculum and it's the one thing we all have most in common! I don't think we need to add religion into the mix.

      You're opening Pandora's Box here, folks.

      Through all your faults and all my complaints, I still love you.

      by jayden on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:49:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Re: It should be an option (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jgilhousen

        I can understand how many local school districts would  not be able to implement such a curriculum because of local culture.  It shouldn't be done everywhere, but in places where it can be done well, the students would benefit.

        •  Screw local culture!! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Panda, irishwitch, jgilhousen

          That's part of the problem.  Students in a overtly Christian town, with no exposure to other religious ideas and values are precisely the ones who need a non-judgmental, unbiased, factual overview of other religious philosophies.  Otherwise you simply perpetuate insular local biases.

          Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter - MLK,Jr.

          by Embee on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:05:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Jayden, this is why (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Grand Poobah, MarketTrustee

        you should attend the local school board meetings.

        Voice your concerns.  Address the school board.  

        You may not get exactly what you want, but the interaction with the school system is invaluable.

        I had come to an entirely erroneous conclusion which shows, my dear Watson, how dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data.

        by TheBigKahuna on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:17:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I agree..... (0+ / 0-)

      Elementary and middle school is way to young for Comparative Religious Studies.  

      The best case scenario is to do it as a part of history.  When we teach/study Ancient Cultures, from the Romans, to the Greeks, to the Aztec, Maya and Inca cultures, we are introducing the idea of "belief" systems.  Since most ancient civilizations were somewhat theocratic, religion is a part of history.

      As for influencing children, it can happen but not always.  I went to Catholic schools for eight out of twelve years and was indoctrinated on a daily basis by nuns and priests not above using fear and terror and guilt.  It didn't take all that well as I ended up an agnostic.  

      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

      •  Comparative Religions... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jgilhousen

        ...was mandatory when I went to Catholic school.  A semester of studying non-Western religions.  

      •  I'm with you about elementary school... (0+ / 0-)

        but I think you underestimate middle schoolers.  I definitely began learning to form a more independent world view in 7th and 8th grade: began questioning my parents' staunch Republicanism, my church's anti-ecumenism, and developing my own, albeit seminal opions.  It was a time not unlike this.  Military "advisers" had been sent to Viet Nam, Civil Rights marches were happening, and we were definitely on course for the upheavals which were soon to come.  It was precisely then that I needed, and am glad I received, some guidance from dedicated professional educators.

        Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

        by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 10:07:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have spent quite a long time tutoring - (4+ / 0-)

    and though I no longer do it, having stopped back in 2002, I have a couple of thoughts on this:

    1.  The kids, by and large, don't read - and they hate to do it when they're made to.
    1.  I'm a former atheist, now agnostic, who is ALL in favor of separation of church and state.  That being said -
    1.  If putting the Bible in public school classrooms would get the kids to read more, I'd be in favor of putting them in every desk nationwide.
    1.  My bet is, putting the Bible in every desk nationwide would get kids to read even less, not more.  It is not stellar, gripping literature.  More of a tedious slog through a swamp, from a literary perspective.
    1.  I'm totally fine with religious studies courses - so long as they are wholly optional and voluntary.

    They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

    by arbiter on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:34:27 PM PDT

  •  I could live with it, in theory (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, TheBigKahuna

    I think a basic understanding of world religions would be a worthy subject to teach in public schools. There are a lot of things in this world that don't make a lot of sense if you aren't familiar with the big religios texts or principles.

    In my own education, I found that I needed a copy of the King James Bible for reference when I was trying to read a bunch of Faulkner novels. There's a broad swathe of American and English literature that require at least an awareness of important Biblical characters in order to appreciate it.

    All that said, no matter how well intentioned I would never endorse teaching religion in K-12 public schools. That's because I assume that at least half of the school districts in the country (or almost all in some locales) couldn't be trusted to teach religion in a non-sectarian way.

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

    by Joe Bob on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:42:45 PM PDT

  •  Very worthwhile to discuss (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, TheBigKahuna

    It's a matter of critical thinking. Not necessarily in challenging a person's faith, but a person's knowledge about the history and content of their (and others') chosen holy books. The pulling out of these two verses here to epitomize "our" position; or those two verses over there to spotlight "their" position (which can (and is) done with the Bible, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, etc.)  

    The problem is developing the curriculum. This guy Prothero seems to have a good handle on it. Many districts or teachers would not. Students are not going to read the entirety of the possible books. Who will decide which "clips" are appropriate and useful? What will be left out that might be important? Even more stressful - what religions are going to be covered?

    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." Sen Carl Schurz 1872

    by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 04:56:42 PM PDT

  •  good in theory, but.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MadRuth, irishwitch, Kingsmeg

    I'm as athiest as they come, but I appreciate some religious literature as literature and I am well aware that intelligent reading of much of western literature depends on at least a pasing familiarity with the Christian Bible.  So in sane and normal times, I'd be all for the study of comparative religion.
    But these ain't normal times, the people running things sure aren't sane.  
    I would foresee endless battles over curriculum and, especially in certain areas, a perversion of the concept into indoctrination.  So for now, I'd be a reluctant NO  

    •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

      I had an excellent course in my Senior HS year called World Lit. and World Problems, which included an all too brief discussion of world religions and how they factored into world literature and world problems.  It was not at all controversial in my small southern town, but then again, neither was the teaching of evolution.  Ah, the good old days.

      "There are no happy endings in the Bush Administration". - Randall L. Tobias

      by MadRuth on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:09:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It cannot be done (4+ / 0-)

    It isn't the "secular left" that is the cause of the lack of classes on religion - it is the christians.

    They will not allow a class on, say, the Bible, which points out problems with authenticity of various verses, comparisons with the Gospel of Judas ..... basically anything which doesn't match their sects doctrines.

    It is a firestorm that public schools don't need and can't handle.

    P.S. - I doubt that it is the "secular left" that does poorly on tests of religious knowledge.
    I scored 100 - and it has been my observation that athiests in general are more knowledgeable about christianity than christians. They have to be.

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:13:36 PM PDT

  •  Yes, Religion should be taught (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, jgilhousen

    by  qualified unbiased teachers. No bible thumpers need apply. Religion should be a subject taught along with English, History, French, Latin, Geography, Music, Art, Mathematics, Chemistry, Physiology, Physics etc. etc. while young minds are sponges.
    The U.S. "educational system" is designed to teach to a test. A silly test. One that measures nothing but ability to take a silly test. Higher level thinking is discouraged. It's the goal of people like the Bushes to limit education/knowledge to those who can "afford" it. Knowledge is seen as a threat to the elite. It's the same old class warfare we've seen since time began.  The more ignorant the masses, the more malleable they're likely to be when told there's a "war on terror" to be fought.

    It's not just religion...it's everything. Americans are trained to be consumers not thinkers.

    Gahzette ~ "At all costs, let's laugh!"

    by Panda on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:15:06 PM PDT

  •  I'm all for this (5+ / 0-)

    If I had a nickel for every fucking moron who told me, "But Muslims don't believe in God or Jesus."  When that is just so incredibly, blatantly false, I'd be a gazillionaire.  After taxes.  No one has ever asked me if Muslims believe in God or Jesus.  For reason, the insanely ignorant want to believe that Allah is a wholly different God despite Islam being part of the Abrahamic tribe.  

    When I was in high school we were bored to tears on ancient European history, details on the rise and fall of certain religions over thousands of years.  Islam was given 22 pages.  Egypt was given about 50 pages.  Africa (apparently in history books, Egypt is not part of Africa) got about 30 pages most of them detailing what the Europeans did.  Asia (meaning China) got about 30 pages.  Japan got 17, India 12.   The Asia countries, that was history AND religion.  So yeah, I think if someone is going to try to shove their religion down my throat a) they better know what the fuck they're talking about (most Christians I know only know what they've been told) and b) better have a knowledge about my religions so they don't sound stupid.

    Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

    by fabooj on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:20:09 PM PDT

    •  Indications are... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Chun Yang

      that they don't even know that much about their own religion.

      How many fundamentalists do you know who could tell you what the original "truths" were considered to be "fundamental?"

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:38:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or what the doctrine ofelection (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jgilhousen

        means (or even identify John Calvin  by the nation of birth and where he established the ciuty he ruled as a theocxracy).

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:47:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  altemeyer's authoritarians (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarketTrustee, jgilhousen

        I have been reading that online and he points out that authoritarians/religious fundamentalists don't want to question, so they are not likely to learn of other faiths OR spend time learning about their own, which could lead to uncomfortable contradictions.

        (Okay, I just wanted to brag that I scored 100%!) And yesterday my young son asked me about veiled women in the mall, and I explained Islam to him in a way that I think fabooj would okay. His reply, though, was , "Oh, that GOD stuff!"

        The pump don't work 'cause a vandal took the handle.

        by Chun Yang on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:08:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A few years back... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe, Chun Yang, MarketTrustee

          there was an incident in rural Maine a few years back involving a couple of young hunters who inadvertently trespassed on the grounds of the hermitage of a small group of contemplative Eastern Orthodox nuns, one of whom ran them off by firing what I hope was a warning shot with her shotgun in their general direction.  She was ultimately arrested after the young men identified her to police based on her habit as "a female ninja."

          God stuff, indeed.

          Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

          by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:18:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  just my son's personal take (0+ / 0-)

            Unless there is some way that former Chinese orphans are hardwired to atheism. He attends church, Sunday school, and Bible study in a mainstream church and is exposed to people of many spiritual persuasions. He just does not personally have interest in it. He never believed in Santa, either. I think he will be a scientist- he demands physical proof.

            The pump don't work 'cause a vandal took the handle.

            by Chun Yang on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:58:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I call myself a "scientific historian" (0+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Chun Yang

              and I demand such proof.  I am all in favor or religion practiced privately but angrily aginst dogma forced on our governmental processes or our daily lives.

              Quote the scriptures and I counter with the almanac.

              (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

              by john07801 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 08:09:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I completely agree with teaching religion (0+ / 0-)

    as long as we can also let kids read all about Xenu and their body thetans.

    And then in gym class they can practice jumping up and down on couches.

    "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

    by Pesto on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:31:34 PM PDT

    •  I'll go for that when.... (0+ / 0-)

      evangelical Xenians try to take over our political system, and fundamentalist Body Thetans start strapping on explosives and detonating themselves in public places.

      As for couch jumping, I'd definitely prefer it to the absolute lack of physical activity students are getting now.

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:41:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, the Scientologists (0+ / 0-)

        are getting influential, especially in LA where they're headquartered.  You can bet that if something like what you're proposing were in place, there'd be a lot of pressure on LAUSD to start telling kids the "truth about the human mind."

        But if anyone were to mention the secret OT III and above "information", there'd be the standard Scientologist "trade secret" screaming.

        "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

        by Pesto on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:57:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry for the snark (0+ / 0-)

          I thought you were being facetious, and none to my own credit, responded in-kind.  Mea culpa, etc.

          I see no reason why contemporary and even "new age" religions, for that matter, should be out of bounds for objective and/or critical review, just as minor parties, past and present, should be examined in a study of political parties.  I agree with the approach of starting with the majors, though.

          Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

          by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:11:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I can think of a lot worse things than religion.. (0+ / 0-)

    ..in high school, but don't really see the point of it either.

    I'd much rather high school students spend a semester studying Eric Hoffer's The True Believer, which is all the religious study anyone will ever really need to prepare them for the real world.  Think of it as immunization against them ruining their life or wasting years of it by getting caught up in some fringe religious or political sect.

    Then again, I'm far more alarmed that high school students are graduating without knowing practical skills, than not knowing about some ancient superstitions.  Let me know if I need to expound on what I mean by practical skills (hint: I bet 99% of high school students can't do a single one of them.)

    •  Expound away (0+ / 0-)

      just to voice both our concerns.

      If religiousity is taking up one minute of our children's time that could otherwise be devoted to math and science (or literature or history), it is a wasted momemnt.

      (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

      by john07801 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 08:17:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I don't know if I need to expound (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        john07801

        much more since you pretty well summed it up.  Time spent on religious studies is time that could instead be spent on math, science, literature, and history, which high school students aren't getting enough of as it is.  Although I suppose a case could be made that an awareness of different religions falls into the history category and current events as well...but I don't see much point in a separate religious studies program.

        What I probably find most astonishing about lack of practical skills is how many high school students graduate without basic writing skills.  The Internet - although one would assume it would correct this via a self-education process - isn't really helping as chat room jargon ("Tnx, how R U") isn't quality writing.

        That and some practical skills that seem to have fallen out of favor.  I'm actually an advocate of retaining things like shop and home economics in high schools and adding some other skills, things like basic auto mechanics, computer repair, CPR and first aid...

        •  I get the feeling (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          canyonrat

          that you are young, yet you sound like you’re my age (which is likely older).  Your idyllic school is much like the one we had in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

          I saw this acquired disability, too, in my day, and ultimately chalked it up to increased opportunities for me.  After all, I’d paid attention in class and gotten my degree.  

          But our values are backward, nationally.  Our most wealthy citizens (like Bush’s parents) shield their children from reality, defend them (and intimidate detractors) until their life is perfect and then endow them with enough money to preclude them and their families (into perpetuity) from working.  

          George W. Bush has never been judged by his parents, by his schools, by the military or by Congress (up until now).  Throughout his life, everyone sought his company and friendship because they wanted an "in" with his father.  So, how can we expect him to remediate, now?

          Our poorest students are beset with gangs, local violence, unstable living environments and poverty.  How can we ask the doctor-to-be in this neighborhood to step up and take extra-curricular courses when she has to go home and babysit for her brother?

          But we have a wealth of youthful, healthy, growing minds who will blossom and prosper when presented with the potential knowledge and the time to acquire it.  If we don’t support them, insure their security and minimize their distractions, we’re throwing away their future and, therefore, ours.

          We’re on the same side, equally passionate, and we’ve got to keep these arguments clear for our candidates.  Then tend to backslide, if you haven’t noticed.

          Thanks for your response.

          (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

          by john07801 on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 11:26:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm in my late 30s (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            john07801

            Not young enough to have had to go through the nightmare schools are today, beset with metal detectors, fenced-in buildings that look like minimum security prisons, gangs, and who knows what else, and not old enough to have been in school in the 50s or 60s.  Not sure I'd consider the 1950s and 60s idyllic given the problems then (segregation..etc).  Nor the 70s and early 80s for that matter, when I was in school.  Too much emphasis on which social clique you fit into to make it a pleasant experience.  I don't think that has changed.

            Bush I would guess went to a private prep school.  Just a guess, mind you.  That brings up another sticky issue with schools.  The wealthy (old money, Republican families largely) send their children to those schools partly as a status symbol and partly to shield them from the real world.  Public schools suffer and the Republicans want to defund them even more.  No easy solutions here.  I would see the idyllic learning environment as one in which children want to learn and are encouraged to pursue knowledge in a wide variety of areas that don't always fall into the rote-academic, cramming for tests style of education.  But the schools where this seems to be working, such as Montessori, have the same problems as any private school: they are only available to those who can afford them.

  •  Studying religions (0+ / 0-)

    that since from time immemorial have and to this day continue to form teh very basis for culture, traditions, and makeup of various societies can only benefit school children.  It will increase and broaden their understanding of the world, and people that populate it.

  •  Actually I would happily back (4+ / 0-)

    a comparative religions course required of every high school student---and I mean covering ALL the major religions and pointing out that not all Christian denoms agree. I'd include atheism and agnosticism in  teir--and the cases made for them.

    If you intend to major in ENglish or hsitory in college, you DO need to know about religion and mythology because of the troles they have played in shaprign our literary and hsitorical heritage.

    I do NOT however favor teaching the bible as Literature, becasue, frnakly, I don't trust people to teach such a class critially and neutrally--I mena, look at Laura Mallorty whow ants to ban Harry Potter!  Think someone liek that could handle a neutral  class on the Bible, which doesn't teach exactly what her denomination preaches?

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 05:46:00 PM PDT

  •  I remember... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    algebrateacher, MarketTrustee

    ...my World History class back in high school.  We spent a few days on world religions.  The teacher knew nothing other than his own, particularly virulent version of Catholicism, but he knew better than to snark Protestantism, so Christianity in general got a free pass.  All other religions were at least misrepresented and frequently ridiculed.  That's what we'll get for religious education in the schools.  We don't have enough people qualified to teach math and science; where do we expect to find people truly qualified to teach comparative religion?  If we are going to spend money to train additional teachers, we should spend it to make up the shortfall in math and science, not to train more crypto-preachers.

    •  Science and math are important. (3+ / 0-)

      I'm an engineer/programmer; obviously I'll think that.

      Having said that, I believe a fully rounded education includes elements of a liberal arts education:  arts, humanities, religion, philosophy, etc.

      How can one expect kids to critically examine the world around them if they are handicapped from the get-go?

      Additionally, I recommend those who have reservations to address their respective school boards.

      I had come to an entirely erroneous conclusion which shows, my dear Watson, how dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data.

      by TheBigKahuna on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:23:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If we could find the money (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      algebrateacher

      if we could find the teachers, if we could find the training, we would still wind up with fundamentalism in disguise, I'm afraid.

      Fundamentalists know no bounds.

      (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

      by john07801 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 08:23:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Comparative religion is already taught (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarketTrustee, jgilhousen

    This link is to the California Social Studies Standards for seventh grade.  You will see study of Islam, Buddhism, Roman Catholicism, the early Protestants, etc., etc.

    http://www.cde.ca.gov/...

    There is, of course, the question of depth and detail.  California tends to overload its Standards but that may be true for most states.

    Now if you want to debate the worthiness of teaching seventh graders the skim-version of world religions, that's a whole other discussion.

    McCain has no core principles that the American people can trust he'll follow from one day to the next. We should worry about his principals, too.

    by algebrateacher on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:07:29 PM PDT

    •  I think CA is atypical. (n/t) (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      algebrateacher

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:13:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That made me laugh. And about school prayer... (0+ / 0-)

        "...CA is atypical."  Never a truer statement...

        Back to education:  California also demands Algebra for eighth graders, something other states still presume to be a high school course.  This gives traction to the old joke:

        "As long as there is Algebra in school, there will also be prayer for divine help."

        McCain has no core principles that the American people can trust he'll follow from one day to the next. We should worry about his principals, too.

        by algebrateacher on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 07:02:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oregon used to... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          algebrateacher

          and it knocked me off of honor roll in a hurry.  It gives me no pleasure to admit to someone whose nick is "algebrateacher," but to say that I am mathematically challenged is an understatement.

          The way this whole thread keeps bumping into the whole local control v. state standards issue is whetting my whistle for a more substantive discussion of that one, too... especially viz a viz core progressive values of democracy and populism.

          However, since this diary seems to have inspired a huge collective yawn amongst all but a few Kossacks, and with a war raging and a primary cycle warmin' up, I'll probably resist tackling education topics for awhile.

          Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

          by jgilhousen on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 09:57:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Check out Teachers' Lounge on Saturdays (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            rserven

            The diary usually goes up about 10 am Pacific time.  You might find something interesting.  Robyn collects the "education" diaries for the week.

            There are a lot of teachers at kos.  I think a lot of them tend to lurk, though.

            You are, I believe, in the majority when you say you are "mathematically challenged."  It's why the government can spend a million on one thing and a billion on something else and people don't see the difference.  :)

            McCain has no core principles that the American people can trust he'll follow from one day to the next. We should worry about his principals, too.

            by algebrateacher on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 01:51:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  My first clear view of organized religion (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, algebrateacher

    came in college with an elective: "History of the Protestant Reformation."  

    I was raised by a devoutly Irish-Catholic mother and an equally anti-Catholic, Irish-Protestant father.  As a family, we didn’t regularly solicit either brand of church because of the primary disagreement.  And, to me, it was all clearly political.  I decided atheism was the true reality by age 15.  (I was a bright kid.)

    Once enlightened by my college course as to the history of the church(s), it was easy to understand every position they took.  They were always political and financial, they benefited the church and the promised the fury of hell if disobeyed.  Such a deal!  Such pliant customers!

    I am in favor of an historical teaching of all religions but only as I experienced it: as belief-absent history.  And it should include all world religions to teach the children about what each one holds dear, about what is feared, and about what members considers the essence of life. Maybe that will finally put Jesus on a level playing field in this country.

    But I am always in fear of the pseudo-Christian, evangelical bogeymen who proselytizes anyone within their reach.  The Bush administration has demonstrated this toxic influence in every level of government.  I hope this practice is outlawed.

    (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

    by john07801 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 07:02:12 PM PDT

  •  I didn't answer your poll (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jgilhousen

    Because there was no acceptable option.

    Yes religion should be taught in schools.  It should be taught, thouroughly disparaged and any believers publicly scorned as mental pygmies.

    Miracles simply do not happen.  To believe in them is no different than believeing in Santa Claus.

    Now, I personally believe in God, it is a personal choice based on faith not reason.  But no public decision should be made on anything but reason,  Religion has no part in the state.  None whatsoever.  It is far to dangerous.  It gives justification to fools.

    Best Wishes, Demena

    by Demena on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 10:48:49 PM PDT

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