Daily Kos

Senator Clinton, Here's Why Being Gay Is Not Immoral

Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 04:58:27 AM PDT

Yesterday, in response to General Peter Pace’s homophobic outburst, Hillary Clinton balked at answering the question, "Is homosexuality immoral?" punting with the statement, "Well I'm going to leave that to others to conclude." Senator Clinton? Glad to meet you. My name is "Others, Professor Others."

Is homosexuality immoral? Step one, we need to figure out what is meant by the term "homosexuality." It could mean sexual attraction felt towards those of the same sex. Since this attraction is not something we choose, it is not something that can be judged moral or immoral. Perhaps it is a lifestyle. The term "lifestyle" is either so vague as to be meaningless or specific enough that it fails to cover most gay people since any person’s lifestyle will differ from everyone else’s and even change over time for any given person. My guess is that it is meant to be a wink-wink nudge-nudge reference to the fact that all them gays have a lot more sex than straight people and we’re really talking about promiscuity here. But, of course, many gay men and lesbians are in long-term, stable, happy monogamous relationships. What is really at issue here? It’s same-sex sex. Is it always and necessarily wrong to get hot and heavy with someone who brings the same dish to the pot luck?

To answer this question, we need to figure out how to determine when something is immoral. Traditionally, there are five competing moral systems that do this job for us and it is fair to say that we employ all of them, seeing each to be operative in some cases and not in others. Each consider one of the parts of a moral situation – who did it, what he did, to whom it was done, the effects of having done it on all involved, and the effects of having done it for those to whom we have special moral responsibilities. Virtue ethics looks at the actor – was this the sort of action that will lead to the formation of a good character? Duty ethics looks at the what – all things being equal, is this the sort of act that should always or never be done? Rights-based ethics looks at the to whom – did the act violate anyone else’s rights? Utilitarianism looks at the consequences writ large – did the act leave the world a better place than any of the alternatives? And care-based ethics looks at the results for those with whom we have special relationships – did the act alienate or further embed you in the life of someone you care about?

Of course, using any of these tools to judge sexual acts will be impossible in the abstract since each encounter has its own particulars that need to be considered. Is it a budding romance or a casual hook-up? Are the people committed to others? Is everyone sober and in a rational frame of mind? But our interest is whether the mere fact that those making love to one another have the same genitalia is by itself sufficient to put one on the wrong side of the moral line using any of our ethical systems.

In this way, there is no reason whatsoever to think that you couldn’t have morally good same sex sex. You could have to willing, satisfied partners who were generous, caring, and responsive, who treated the other person as an end in him or herself and not a mere tool for pleasure. In this case, none of our systems would object to the act.

Let us consider some of the standard objections:

God considers it an abomination

This is a theological claim, not a moral one. Trying to kill your child is immoral. Abraham did it. God asked him to. Abe chose religion over ethics there. The two are different. If you want to follow Kierkegaard in saying faith is more important than ethics, fine, just realize that your zeal may lead you to be unethical, Mr. High and Mighty (and, may I add, really, really scary). The vast majority of lessons taught by the world’s major religions are good ones and line up remarkably well with morality, the world would indeed be a better place if the faithful would actually abide by them, but simply because it is a behavioral norm in a religious community does not make it a moral imperative. Someone who eats a cheeseburger may be a bad Hindu or Jew, if on Good Friday a bad Catholic, but that does not necessarily make them immoral for having eaten it.

They aren’t married

The word "marriage" has at least three meanings: (1) a religious rite, (2) a legal status implying shared rights, privileges, and responsibilities, and (3) a social status of mutual exclusive commitment. None of these makes a marriage license into a "have sex free" card. Sex and marriage are two entirely distinct things. Is it immoral to have sex with your spouse? Of course not, just don’t expect it too often. Of course, the folks we’re talking about are barred from getting married in the first place in most locales, a moral problem of it’s own, but that’s a different problem.

It’s not natural

Step one, what is meant by the word "natural" here? Is homosexuality found in nature? Sure. Eight percent of rams seek only to have sexual relations with other rams. Homosexual behavior has been widely observed in bonobo chimps. Maybe natural means "serves a biological function." But, of course, we do many things that serve no biological function and aren’t morally wrong, e.g., forwarding bad jokes by e-mail to relatives we never speak to. Maybe it means "against human nature." But to gay men and lesbians it is exactly a part of their nature. To try to be otherwise is what is unnatural. Maybe it means that it can’t result in a baby...

Sex is only for having babies

No it’s not. The number of different functions and roles that sexuality plays in the intricacies of human relations is staggering. Sex not only satisfies physical urges, but is used – like our bonobo cousins – to relieve tension. It is a way that we show tenderness and care to someone who is special to us. It is how we seek our own pleasure. As Freud was so fond of pointing out, it is a repository for all sorts of inner-baggage that has nothing to do with the act itself or any biological function it might contribute to. It is where we leave ourselves naked and vulnerable and where subtle and not so subtle power plays are made. It is gentle, fierce, playful, nerve-wracking, selfish, and selfless – an act wherein virtually all human emotions superpose, amplify, and conflict. And it's fun. All of this and it makes babies, too. Making babies is crucial to the survival of our species and should not be taken lightly, but simply because that is how you make babies does not mean that you can’t do other things with it as well. Surely, some of the reason we have sex are bad reasons and one can certainly act immorally in having sex for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way, e.g., rape. But one can live a good, caring, moral life and make love to one’s sweetie when there is no chance of conception.

There is absolutely no reason to consider sexual relations between same sex partners necessarily immoral. Are there cases when it is, of course. Is that all cases? Of course not. If you have any further questions, Senator, feel free to ask.

Crossposted at Philosophers' Playground

Tags: Hillary Clinton, ethics, homosexuality (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 48 comments

  •  Oh, and while you're at it Senator (13+ / 0-)

    gays and lesbians not only deserve the right to marry, but also to have their marriages recognized...   Let's go out on a limb here, "bigotry, bad."

    The playground is open -- Philosophers' Playground: One part sandbox, one part soapbox

    by SteveG on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:00:25 AM PDT

    •  Great diary, well-written. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SteveG, tosscandy, CanadianBill

      I particularly enjoyed the "sex is not only for having babies" paragraph.  That particular part of the argument against homosexuality I have always found baffling and silly.

      Do you know if Edwards has responded to Pace's remarks?

      •  In the Obama FP diary yesterday (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SteveG, WayneNight

        Someone posted part of the IL Senate debate between Alan Keyes and Barack Obama.

        Alan Keyes is kind of a loon, and a sanctimonious, condescending one at that.

        Anyway, it's interesting to watch.  Keyes went through this whole argument about marriage for procreation, then said that straight marriages involving people who are unable to have children are ok because procreation is 'in principle' possible.

        Then there was a question about incest.  This was kinda wierd.  The argument was that lesbians are having babies with no knowledge of who the father is, so they can't know who the brothers and sisters are, so they may unintentionally get involved in incestuous relationships.  Obama, the questioner wer both looking like they had been swept into the Twilight Zone.

        Support the troops (for real)! write to any soldier

        by sberel on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 07:34:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Procreation (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sberel

          then said that straight marriages involving people who are unable to have children are ok because procreation is 'in principle' possible.

          Huh? It is?

          So, is procreation "in principle" possible if I have a vasectomy? Or, if my partner is physically unable to conceive?

          I think Mr. Keyes needs to retake basic biology.

      •  Video of Obama/Keyes (0+ / 0-)

        here.

        Edwards comments here

        Support the troops (for real)! write to any soldier

        by sberel on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 07:53:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Edwards does not share view (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      CanadianBill

      Wolf Blitzer interviewed Edwards and asked him if  homosexuality is immoral.

      Edwards said that he does not share that view.

      Complete transcript here:
      http://transcripts.cnn.com/...

      •  huh? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Allogenes, PhillyGuy03

        did Clinton say Homosexuality was immoral?  My guess is that she and Edwards are just about identical on the issue, but she is not talking about it.

      •  Uh oh. Obama sounds just (0+ / 0-)

        like Clinton. Afraid.

        Obama Mum on Gay "Immorality"

        Barack Obama joined Hillary in courting gays and lesbians by calling for the rollback of "don't ask, don't tell" -- without wanting to directly refute General Pace's comment that homosexuality is "immoral."

        Newsday caught Obama as he was leaving the firefighters convention and asked him three times if he thought homsexuality is immoral.

        Answer 1: "I think traditionally the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman has restricted his public comments to military matters. That's probably a good tradition to follow."

        Answer 2: "I think the question here is whether somebody is willing to sacrifice for their country, should they be able to if they're doing all the things that should be done."

        Answer 3: Signed autograph, posed for snapshot, jumped athletically into town car.

        Why the dance? Maybe it has something to do with not wanting to alienate moderates -- or social conservatives, the churchfolk who view homosexuality as a sin.

        Glenn Thrush

      •  Good for him. Why then, does he reject (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        gay marriage?

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:44:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good question. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          hestal

          And it sounds like he's asking himself that.
          He sounds like he realizes that his discomfort with the idea of gay marriage is largely an instinctive relic of his upbringing. Which he shares with most Americans over 30 or so. He's said, I believe, that it is something he is "working on." Meanwhile he says he supports total equality short of using the word "marriage." This is not an inherently unreasonable position, just not sustainable if you think through it too far, and I think Edwards will at some point acknowledge that and support marriage. We shall see; I for one am willing to give him time to work it out for himself, given how far in the right direction he has come already.

          When civilizations clash, barbarism wins.

          by Allogenes on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 07:30:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think he should take all the time he needs to (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Allogenes

            finally realize that the Constitution is for everybody, even those people who were hated by those who spoke from the pulpits and in the Sunday School classes of his childhood.  It is not a hard thing to say that those Southern Baptists of those days were wrong then and they are wrong now.

            But if Mr. Edwards has not come to his senses by election time then he is, in my view, unqualified to become President.  The oath of office requires the President to protect and defend the Constitution and the rights it gives all Americans.  One size fits all when it comes to the Constitution and the American Way.  Right now Edwards is on the wrong side of history and equality.  He and the Southern Baptist Church are wrong constitutionally.  

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 07:39:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I do not believe that She thinks (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PhillyGuy03

      homosexuality is immoral.  I'll even guess that she would be perfectly fine with marriage equality. But she is running for office and my one criticism of her is that she is being too cautious.
      This diary should be about all the candidates, not one of them has stated a position that is progressive enough for me.
      But it is more fun to write an anti-Hillary diary, it gets more attention.

  •  "I'll leave it for others to decide... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SteveG, The Raven

    ...whether my husband was immoral."

  •  Plenty of discussion on this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    godislove, Niniane

    in the front-page article by kos.

    Hillary Clinton is not going to soapbox on every issue - it's bad interview technique. She's going to pick her battles of the week and talk about them. Perhaps you should let her actions speak louder than her lack of one word in one interview on this topic.

    Breaking out of the frames that your questioner wants to put on your message is an essential skill.

    This is not a sig-line.

    by Joffan on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:18:04 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, (0+ / 0-)

      I think we should focus instead on how she won't call her vote on the Iraq war a mistake and how she wants to keep our troops there in the midst of a bloodbath of a civil war.

      And she doesn't talk about how she intends to keep paying for it.

    •  And half of it by lorelynn (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      CJnyc

      Who painstakingly answered every criticism of Hillary's sniveling little non-answer by pointing out how brave and valiant Hillary was for "asserting with her answer that her job is not to give opinions about morality."

      What I can't figure out, though, is why she just didn't say, "no" and leave it at that. This wasn't a "battle," this wasn't a challenge of "frames," and this wasn't some key Constitutional issue involving the role of the Presidential Candidate and morality.

      It was a simple question. We've seen a number of Democrats and Republicans respond to the same question in the past 48 hours, and none of them had any problem saying "no."

      The more I think about this, the more that "others to decide" crack bothers me. It says something very important about this person. And what it says is not good.

      Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

      by The Raven on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:28:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        Maybe she does believe it is immoral, and somehow has squared that with her other beliefs. Given how much she talks about her religion, it wouldn't be impossible.

        That doesn't mean I respect her decision, but it's possible she's being honest while at the same time declining to get into a cul-de-sac of a debate that can't be won. If gay rights are going to progress, it's going to have to be with the support of some people who are still not going to challenge the view they consider Biblical about homosexuality. It's unfortunate but it's the state of play.

      •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        The Raven, Allogenes
        "Representative Lincoln, is slavery immoral?"
        "Well, I'm going to leave that to ..."

        We look to leaders not just for commands but for their informed opinions, expressions of intent, and summed life wisdom. HRC may have wanted to dodge a "Hillary thinks she's moral now"-type headline with a B.-Clinton-was-immoral (TM) undertow. But it's a lose-lose situation, because dodging the question was worse. "No" would have been more than adequate. I don't know what charisma vampire sucked the content out of her responses, but I haven't heard one on an important issue since the IWR that sounded truly engaged and passionate.

        ... and thanks to SteveG for this pithy analysis.

    •  Yes, and it should be noted... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      godislove, Allogenes

      That Kos rightly inspects Obama's positioning here,too.

      The fact is, with all due respect, that our candidates- and theirs- are all quite actively campaigning from the pulpits of churches, or haven't we noticed...? Our candidates can't just use churches for photo ops and policy announcements and then defer and demure when confronted with the "concerns" of churchgoers...! Isn't this just BEGGING for trouble?

      If there is a position on "morality" and governance that we should be taking, it seems to me that it should be that churches be considered "off-limits" to all candidates in both parties as places to launch or promote or discuss one's presidential ambitions.

    •  It was a leadership test for her, and she failed (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ebohlman, Allogenes, memofromturner

      For me the incident wasn't about Hillary doing effective "reframing of her message."  It was a moment when Hillary had a chance to show true leadership and courage on an issue and make a strong statement, like Warner did, but instead she went into a consultant-driven, workshopped-message mode.  That moment, that leadership test, showed me that if Hillary were to become President, we can expect a lot of the latter and very little of the former.

  •  I'd like to ask HRC (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brittain33, MikeBaseball

    ...directly...if she thinks Eric Alva is immoral.

    I think that could be a make or break point for Mrs. Clinton.

    My signature beat up your signature.

    by Stand Strong on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:20:55 AM PDT

  •  Hillary has a serious Morality Problem (0+ / 0-)

    She still cannot figure out that it was immoral to go to war in Iraq based on lies.  She is still enabling the military to send our citizens to die in another country's civil war,  She needs to quit waffling and act like a leader not a follower with her head in the sand.  If she was moral she would be leading efforts to end the war and to investigate the administration that brought us into the war.  She seems to be focused on HERSELF and her ambition.  Is she looking out to make a difference for the US and the world?  NO.
    She is a BIG disappointment.

    •  She has played it very well (0+ / 0-)

      If she comes out as "the voice of reason" when the debate comes to a head. You know, that person whose last minute swing carries so many others with it...

      This is a tried and true "Boardroom" technique, and is very powerful.
      I'm not saying that this is what she is doing, but if this her paln, she is playing it brilliantly.

      I kinda hope she is, I would love to see all the bashers eat crow.

      "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

      by Niniane on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:26:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

        The only way to win this game is not to play. This homosexual does not want our public officials getting into a debate about whether "homosexuality is moral" because our opponents define all the terms on that playing field. We won't win, and there's no prize even if we do, because our opponents will continue to value their clergy's opinion over ours and Clinton's.

        Better to keep the discussion where Clinton has tried to keep it.

        •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

          We have nothing to fear from calling bigorty what it is.  We have run scared for so long that we are afraid of mixing it up.  We win a fair fight, we just need to remember how to force the fight to be fair.

          The playground is open -- Philosophers' Playground: One part sandbox, one part soapbox

          by SteveG on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:39:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But what are we fighting for? (0+ / 0-)

            How are we supposed to convince reachable religious people to listen to us and not their clergy, and to believe that homosexual acts are moral?

            Answer: we can't. That's a discussion they have to have among themselves.

            We have to fight by saying that discrimination against gays is immoral, because we can reach people that way. But the problem with an analogy about "fighting" is that the ground we're contesting can't be won with violent confrontation. This is not a way to win support among the middle.

            •  We are fighting for the Constitution. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

              by hestal on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:46:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The middle (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              sberel

              This is not a way to win support among the middle.

              Just out of curiosity... If, say, the demographics of this country were such that supporting interracial marriage wouldn't allow us to "win support among the middle," would that mean that all of our candidates should refuse to repudite the idea that interracial marriage is wrong?

              Another question: In 2002, we were told that opposing the Iraq War would be a bad idea because it would "hurt us with the middle."  Many Democratic leaders voted for the war for that reason. So... How has that turned out for us?

              We already spend plenty of time figuring out which messages will appeal to which voters.  Every now and then, though, we need to do something just because it's right, and because nothing will ever change unless people who know better are willing to speak out.

              And, FYI - it's not just "religious" voters who we have to reach out to on homosexuality.  There are non-religious voters who are simply undecided or don't know better.  You're never going to change attitudes by remaining silent on what you know is right.

              •  Religious v. secular voters (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                WayneNight

                Hear, hear.

                All the religious voters could disappear tommorrow, and because of deeply engrained cultural biases, there would still be discrimination against glbt persons.

                At least if you are dealing with a Christian, you can try something like, "How many times does Jesus mention gay people?  And how many times does he mention rich people? Go study."  & In many Christian denominations, there are affirming groups that can talk to them in the language of their own faith.  These groups are actively trying to change the culture with workshops, adult education, sermons, etc. It's not all daisies, but there is some targeted effort being made.

                I have also seen the anti-gay stuff from secular people, and it's just hard.  Because you have to first bring them down out of the emotional, viceral place they are in ('it's icky'), figure out what values are important to them, and try to appeal to that.  & unlike in the religious groups, there really isn't a lot of concerted education being directed to secular people... more in the way of pop culture, like Will and Grace, movies, etc.  It's hit or miss.  In my experience, it's really hard to make headway.

                Support the troops (for real)! write to any soldier

                by sberel on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 08:27:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  But remember, this is a generational problem, (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            SteveG, godislove

            and will take generations to fully address.
            In many parts of the country, civil rights battles are still going on.

            "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

            by Niniane on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:55:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry Steve, (0+ / 0-)

    I think she gets it.
    Excellent reasoning though, nice diary, 'cept for the Hillary part.
    You are preaching to the choir. And believe it or not, Hil is here with us too.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

    by Niniane on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:29:13 AM PDT

    •  No doubt she does, (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      godislove, Allogenes, Niniane

      but we need to be clear and vocal.  Let's get the reasoning out there so that our people don't have to cower in fear that having deep commitments to moral values will alienate them from so-called "values voters."

      The playground is open -- Philosophers' Playground: One part sandbox, one part soapbox

      by SteveG on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:37:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Can't argue with that. n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

        by Niniane on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:48:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  She has a good opportunity... (0+ / 0-)

        ... to actually appeal to the values voters on this issue by saying, "I am not one to judge others and their choice of lifestyles. The bible tells us we're all sinners, so who would I be to judge? I am for loving my neighbor, not trying to take the specks out of their eyes."

        Okay, it might not be the strongest endorsement of homosexuality, but I think it would speak to the hateful hypocrite "values voters."

        hink

        Hyperbole will be the death of us all!

        by MrHinkyDink on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:18:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not To Overlook (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    godislove, Allogenes

    This issue, but I am starting to get that Ned Lamont feeling regarding the Obama campaign right about now.

    Clinton is on everyday, on all media, saying all sorts of dribble the content of which the general public could care less.  But, it is creating that aura of front-runner, and keeping her name in the public eye.

    Clinton could honk up a lugi and make headlines, that's not the point.  But, her handlers are working it so the spotlight is constantly on her.

    Obama may be in the trenches doing the grunt work of running for President, but his campaign is more or less in the shadows right now.

    Clinton's whole gig is to create the image of her being Duke, or USC, or something.

    If you read her fairly obvious comments on the newest gay skybomb, you see nothing of ANY substance.  Yet, it keeps her name out there and keeps up the steady Brazilian like drumbeat.

    Only Edwards is out front at times on real issues, and lets hope the pace he is setting holds up over the campaign.

  •  So when does.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...Hillary-fatigue set it?

  •  Why Can't They Just Tell The Truth? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes

    Hillary Clinton knows damn well that homosexuality is biology; it's genetics. Why don't they just TELL THE TRUTH?

    This is no more a moral issue than whether or not someone has blue eyes. Is it immoral to be born with curly hair? Are we immoral if we have olive skin tones? Do we show our immorality with freckles?

    I mean, it's just absurd. Just tell the truth. There IS global warming; homosexuality is not a "choice."

    LYING IS IMMORAL.

    Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. ~Potter Stewart

    by SignalSuzie on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:24:41 AM PDT

  •  Ms. Clinton's Updated Response...... (0+ / 0-)

    I post this merely as further information, as a Canadian I'm neither for or against any candidate.

    "I disagree with what he said and do not share his view, plain and simple," the Senator said. "It is inappropriate to inject such personal views into this public policy matter, especially at a time in which there are young men and women in such grave circumstances in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in other dangerous places around the world."

    Full Story Here

    The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

    by CanadianBill on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:38:48 AM PDT

  •  Ask not what is immoral, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes, CanadianBill

    ask what is unconstitutional.  Private sexual acts between consenting adults are constitutional and protected.  See the SCOTUS ruling in Lawrence v. Texas.  There is no doubt.  

    To debate "moral" or "immoral," as the diarist has demonstrated very well here is full of opportunities for interpretation.  And to engage in this debate is just what the religionists want.  They can create confusion and suffering, and they don't mind the suffering because they need the confusion to keep the faithful in line.

    The question is simple: "Which is the supreme law of the land, the Constitution or some holy scripture such as the Bible?"  Even the most hardshell of the Southern Baptists will not reject the Constitution in public.  The Constitution is neither moral or immoral, it is simply just.

    If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

    by hestal on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 06:42:54 AM PDT

  •  On the (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes

    "unnatural" thing, I always ask how many species in nature have religions?

    This isn't knocking religion, I'm Catholic, I'm just sayin.

    "I'm trying to believe in you but this world sold its faith for parking lots and drunk sincerity." - the ataris

    by indiemcemopants on Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 07:18:36 AM PDT

  •  Nice straw man argument! (0+ / 0-)

    The people who make the claim that homosexuality is immoral are almost always speaking from the point of view of Christianity. Bringing in other moral systems is a little dishonest.

    The Christian Bible states, in the new Testament, that homosexuality is a desire felt to some extent by all (Romans 1). When left to their own wills, men and women will engage in homosexual conduct.

    Romans 1 makes the case that homosexual conduct is an indication that the person is not following God. In other places the case is made that marriage should not be committed unless the people involved are unable to exist as monastics.

    Now as to your list. It's been a while, but Kantian ethics states that whatever imperative you choose must be applicable all the time.

    Utilitarianism states that whatever rule you choose must increase the happiness of the majority. The minority can be as unhappy as it wants. Therefor Utilitarianism is an argument for the slavery of the minority. If 51% of the population is men, then the law could state that rape is a good and moral thing when committed against women and the law would be Utilitarian.

    There is no need to stray from the ethical system that Christians are using when analyzing the morality of homosexuality. there are a sufficient number of Christian churches around that almost any position you want is represented.

    If you are gay, and want to get married, then all you need do is join an episcopal or unitarian universalist church. If the exact Christianity of the church isn't important you can join the wiccans or other religion that recognizes gay marriage.

    The real problem with gay marriage is that the states seek to make it illegal. Marriage is a religious rite. Your efforts to "legalize" a particular form of marriage fall short. What should happen is that the states should realize they haven't had the power to regulate marriage since the 14th amendment was passed.

    Get teh states out of the marriage business and let the churches have it back.

    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. - Patrick Henry

    by elvish1 on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:30:51 AM PDT

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