Daily Kos

Enough With Bashing Democrats on Iraq Already

Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 09:53:36 PM PDT

I have seen a lot of back and forth on this site about whether or not the current war funding resolution under consideration by the US House of Representatives should be supported or opposed.  Early on, I was dead set against the resolution, because of the usual "toothless" ground, but then my pragmatic side took over.  Let me explain why.

Many have said here that there is no real enforcement of the bill.  The troop readiness requirements, for example, can be waived by the President.  Simply by certifying that benchmarks are being met and have been met, Bush is able to continue the war.  And we all know what a smart idea it is to trust Mr. "Iraq is trying to acquire yellow cake uranium for Niger."  And then, After September of 2008, the bill simply declares the wall illegal.  So what, you might ask, is making my crazy head support this bill.

First and most obvious reason?  Because first and obviously, this may be the only bill that can pass right now.  Here are the other reasons.

It's the Paper Trail, Stupid

One of the things this administration is terrified of most is, in two words, paper trail.  Take the warrantless wiretapping scandal, for example.  One reason they did that, despite having a FISA Court that almost never ever denies the government's request for a warrant, is that Bush, Cheney and Gonzales did not want to leave any paper trail of who they were wiretapping and why.  They learned from Richard Nixon, and they know a paper trail can be deadly.  Although they don't seem to understand that email, too, creates a paper trail (in light of the US Attorney firings), but that's another story.

Now think about what happens.  If Bush wants to continue the war, he has to do several things.

One, certify, on a unit by unit basis, that those troops, even though are not fully battle ready by the Pentagon's standards, must be kept in Iraq because of "national security reasons."  Now, I don't know how many units are serving in Iraq in total, and how many have and will serve, but it's at least that many presidential declarations (1) Admitting he is sending unprepared troops to Iraq, and (2) admitting embarrassingly that the world's most powerful military is incapable of having battle ready troops; that is how much the Iraq war broke us.

And then there is certification on progress in Iraq.  Again, paper trails.

They are afraid of paper trails not simply because those are potent political weapons, but Congress can further use that paper trail to hold oversight hearings, and demand answers justifying what's written down.  There is no way to wiggle out of it when it's in writing.  The paper trail, at the very least, makes it easier for Congress to clamp down and spread its roots of hard oversight.

Would I have been happier if the bill did not let the president wiggle out?  Yes.  But again, I'm a pragmatist.

Perpetual Debate Without Allowing Action Can Lead to Perpetual War

At least, there is a deadline of September 1, 2008.  One can argue it is too late, and I won't be opposed to that argument.  Hell, it's too late now.  But as I have said numerous times in numerous comments section, I am not so ideological that I will be hell bent on continuing a debate in perpetuity if it does not end with my conclusion.  Because the danger in continuing the debate in perpetuity is that the war, too, will with absolute certainty be continued in perpetuity.  We cannot both be against perpetual war and perpetual debate on the war, if that debate does not produce any steps.

Much Ado About "Defunding" Not Being Included

This bill declares the war illegal after September 1, 2008.  But, it does not explicitly cut off funding thereafter.  That has caused an uproar.  Before we go on an all out war against the Democratic majority though, we need to understand that it doesn't mean much either way.  Saying it is illegal does in fact send a signal that Congress will not stand by this war after that date.  Quite likely, that would mean defunding, for which we may even have the votes by then, given the continual scandals of the administration and further deterioration of the occupation in Iraq.

On the other hand, I caution against making a Congressional declaration of defunding a cause celeb, given that Congress itself is not bound by its previous resolutions.  Congress can say "Oh we will cut off funding.... ohhh you watch out, we'll cut off funding!" and the go right back and authorize funding at a later date.  There is absolutely nothing to stop Congress from doing so.

The Silver Lining: Bush's Veto

If this bill actually makes through Congress, Bush has promised to ink his veto pen for it.  I can't say I'm not totally giddy over that possibility.  Congress approves a bill with funding with strings attached, and Bush is forced to veto the entire bill, which will result in him vetoing the funding as well.  That will end the war without the Democrats having to further lift a single finger.  Sure the Republicans will blame the Democrats for "failure", but it's not like they aren't planning on doing it anyway.  Besides, power is given to us to do the right thing, not for the sake of power itself.

This Bill Does Not End the Raging Debate on Iraq

If this bill passes, that is not the end of the debate.  In fact, we can see this poorly crafted compromise as a minimal progress that we can build on.  We do not need to shut up the day after this bill passes.  There is no need to for us to take a hike from continuing to push for further Congressional actions.  And in fact, we will not do so.  We will not let up.  We will continue to push, and continue to be a thorn in the way of Congresspeople and Senators that do not want to end this war.

Ending the war, friends, is not simply a resolution.  It is a campaign.  In that campaign, we will not be discouraged because we don't get something perfect today.  We will not simply give up the campaign because don't think we are moving fast enough.  We will not, for the sake of our troops, our country and our world, end this campaign until its goal has been achieved.

Tags: Democrats, funding, Defunding, Iraq war, editorial (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 143 comments

  •  Ok, I'm ready for tips and flames (20+ / 0-)

    bracing myself for it...

    "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

    by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 09:53:04 PM PDT

    •  No Flames - Just Disagree (12+ / 0-)

      Every day that the Blue Dog W.eaklings tremble, quiver and snivel, enables Bush. Every day that goes by with the Dems refusing to squarely face the jobs at hand of ending the war and impeaching Bush/Cheney is paid for with the blood of two more American soldiers and the wounding of approximately 10 American soldiers for every KIA.

      Dems should defeat the current Iraq Supplemental and start over.

      Dems should pass one months funding in a continuing resolution straight up, no XMAS tree, no trying to buy off the base, no kissing Bush butt.

      Every month the same thing - one more month, until the Rethugs and Blue Dogs cave in.

      We already have about 133 more dead American soldiers since Congress convened, and at the rate of wounding, we probably have about 1,000 more wounded vets.

      My stepson will be going to Iraq soon, and I don't want him dying for Bush's arrogance and Dem W.eakness.

      Lefty!!!

      "No AMERICAN requires authorization to do the right thing."

      by LeftyLimblog on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:05:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's an interesting idea. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        galaxy33

        Dems should pass one months funding in a continuing resolution straight up, no XMAS tree, no trying to buy off the base, no kissing Bush butt.

        •  Constitution says only 2 years max at a time... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Autarkh

          ...never heard of a "month by month". That would overload Bush's brain if he had to keep requesting additional funding every 30 days.

          "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:53:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  But if we keep passing (0+ / 0-)

        funding on a monthly basis, without any strings attached, I am not sure it amounts to anything more than a pass to continue it in perpetuity.  Blue Dogs are not going to cave in in a month or two.  But remember that this bill only funds till the end of this year.  We might be able to shake a few of them by then.

        But then, I think your approach does merit consideration.

        "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

        by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:08:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's 9 fucking months of killing (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          theyrereal

          this bill only funds till the end of this year.

          Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

          by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:37:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And if we never pass anything of a restriction (0+ / 0-)

            that may well be 9 fucking more years of killing.  Again, try to give us some constructive and practical solutions instead of just pointing out injustice.  Pointing out injustice does not end it.

            "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

            by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:40:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The constructive thing to do is to stop the war (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              eugene, blueoasis

              Why are you defending the war?

              What "constructive" thing can I do?  The congress works for me and represents me. They are currently fucking up. And you tell us to be good patriots and let them slide on it?

              Not.

              Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

              by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:42:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and how would you do that? (0+ / 0-)

                again, you can keep screaming about how it's the right thing to do, and it is, but it takes action from Congress to do so.  And you are not telling us any constructive ideas as to how that would happen.

                And nobody is telling you to let them slide.  I am simply asking you to realize that it's either this bill now, or a no-strings funding.  As for being fucked up, which is more fucked up?  And I am asking  you to realize that you are yelling at the wrong people - people in the leadership want to end the war, but they are doing what they can now.

                And Democrats came to power by promising not to cut off funding immediately.  You may not like that, but that is one of the promises they won on.  And so, they are there to keep that promise while trying to end the war.  You have a representative in Congress, but the Congress as a whole is not beholden to your particular opinions, I must say.

                "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:53:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I cannot personally do it, or I would (0+ / 0-)

                  Therefore I am calling on the government to stop the war.

                  They can take the complaints, they know that coming it.

                  They don't need you to squelch the masses and quiet the people down.

                  Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

                  by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:55:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no one is squelching anyone (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Snapper

                    that's a disgusting technique to shut your opponents up - accusing them of repressing debate.  I am not shutting you up (obviously).  But I think you are criticizing too much and focusing your criticism on the wrong people, and guess what?  I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT.  That's what I did here.  I am expressing my opinion that I think the bashing is too much.  I have every damn right to say that.

                    "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                    by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:58:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Of course you do. (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      blueoasis

                      And you said it.

                      My wrath about the war is for every branch of goverment that is enabling it, for every politician that is afraid to end it. For every special interest and the lobbyists that represent them that are influencing the pols.

                      Each and every one.

                      I'm an equal opportunity basher.

                      Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

                      by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:15:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Certainly it would cement the idea (0+ / 0-)

          ...that the Dems now own this war.

      •  Republican Congressman Paul Ryan (WI 1) (0+ / 0-)

        "This whole thing is a big gamble, but it's probably the best gamble to take before throwing in the towel and allowing sectarian genocide to take over," said Ryan, who was visiting Iraq for the first time. "I personally give this three to six months to find out."

        By the time he gives up, it won't matter, as the money will already have been appropriated.

        I'm afraid Bush will sign the thing, figuring he can stonewall on the strings attached. Unappropriating money is dicier than not appropriating it.

        This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
        This is only a test.
        If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

        by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:49:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Enough with Killing, Maiming & Bombing Already (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, blueoasis, ImpeachKingBushII

      Stop the fucking war.

      Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

      by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:10:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And how, PRACTICALLY (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Elise, DBunn

        i.e. something that will pass Congress, do you suggest we do that?  See this is the exact problem I am talking about.  We want the war to end NOW so much that we will continue this debate if the action is not our favorite until "NOW" becomes December of 2008 or January of 2009.

        "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

        by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:17:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  By not funding the war (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          peraspera, blueoasis, BentLiberal

          Only the House can propose funding bills. If they don't propose one that funds the war after a certain date, that's all that matters. The war is not indefinitely funded - there is a yearly appropriation. They can quite literally do nothing and end the war.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:24:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes they can do nothing (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Elise

            but not only is there no political will to do nothing, they have also made clear during the last campaign season that they will not be doing that nothing (i.e. sit on their hands and not take up any appropriations) at this point.

            I agree that's an ideal solution.  But practically it is not going to happen.  Not yet, at least.

            "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

            by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:29:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So your solution is for us to stop complaining? (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              eugene, theyrereal, blueoasis

              Bullshit.

              How about the government stop the war? That's the "bashing' that really hurts.

              So, congress doesw the immoral thing of continuing this war and we're supposed to smile?

              Spare me.

              If you think what's going on so far is "bashing" just wait.

              Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

              by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:36:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why is that the case? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              Instead of telling us to accept it, explain why this situation exists, and then maybe we can have a much more productive conversation - how to change that situation.

              You have a very misguided sense of how practicality works.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:07:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  everyone knows why this situation exists (0+ / 0-)

                two words: blue dogs.

                For a while I am going to stop responding to things to restate things.  I respect that you believe my view of practicality is misguided, and I believe yours is in this case.  But tell me an alternative practicality, and maybe we can have something constructive here.

                "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:10:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The alternative practicality (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  blueoasis, BentLiberal

                  Is to figure out how to pressure the Blue Dogs. How to twist their arms and force them to do the right thing.

                  That's what is so infuriating about your approach - your blindness to that possibility. You cede way too much power to the Blue Dogs by merely accepting without a fight their objections. Fuck them and fuck their objections. We should be figuring out ways to make them eat their objections.

                  I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                  Neither is California High Speed Rail

                  by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:13:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

                    how to pressure the Blue Dogs

                    I came up with a suggestion.  Generate so many calls from INSIDE their districts they shit their pants.  But I don't think it can be done.  If you have any other solutions, I am listening.

                    That's what is so infuriating about your approach - your blindness to that possibility

                    It's not a blindness.  It's simply that I see that probability being pretty close to zero.  You are welcome to prove me wrong, though.

                    "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                    by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:16:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I come out somewhere in-between (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't know if sufficient pressure can be generated from within their districts or not. That's because the blue dogs have yet to stand up and vote against unfunding the war. If it's really true that this is what their consituents want them to do, then they should have no problem doing that. So why is it like pulling teeth to get a bill brought up for a vote?

                      I don't know the answer to that, either. But I think the first step is to put all these theories to the test...and make 'em vote on the damn thing. Then we can all stop arguing about mere assumptions, close our hands firmly around the reality of however the vote turns out, and go from there. The current discussions remind me of the 2000 election, in which both presidential candidates campaigned ad nauseum about what should or should not be done with a budget surplus that existed only as a projection in the mind of the GAO.

        •  The Congress and The Administration need to do (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene, blueoasis

          what's right. They are fighting a war for oil. They are beholden to special interests.

          People are getting killed and permanently injured. Millions of refugees have been created in Iraq and our governemnt ignores it.

          Why? Because they want to fight a war for coporations and big oil that usues as fodder decent Americans and decent Iraqi's.

          So when I hear mumbo-jumbo about how it's "impossible" to stop this war, I call bullshit.

          Spare me the issues of electibility and blue dogs, and dog-dogs and every other crap excuse.

          It's all just sand in the face by people entrenched in power doing the bidding of lobbyists and special interests.

          Stop the war. It's easy. Stop paying for it and bring the troops home.

          The longer this government keeps this war going the more people are being killed: for money.

          Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

          by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:33:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not "easy" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Asak

            for crying out loud.  You are simply telling us what we need to do, but not how practically it can be done.  It's like saying, "we need to elect so and so".  And when asked, "and how do we do that practically", you just repeat "we need to elect so and so."  We live in a reality based world.  And there, the right thing doesn't simply happen.  You have to make it happen.  Again, I ask, how, practically?

            If it's so easy, why don't you just end the war yourself?

            "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

            by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:37:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would if I could (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              It's easy for the people in power to end the war. They have the power.

              Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

              by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:38:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  And I"m not "telling you" to end the war (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              I'm responding to your lame title that says people can't "bash" congress for immoral killing.

              Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

              by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:39:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You're not in that reality based world (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, BentLiberal

              You're just peddling assumptions and conventional wisdom as if they were pragmatic analysis.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:08:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Tell you what (0+ / 0-)

                You just find us the votes to pass what you want (or make Congress willing to do nothing), and I will delete this whole diary.

                Or is the idea that you need votes also conventional wisdom that I'm peddling as pragmatic analysis?

                "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:31:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with you (0+ / 0-)

                  I think it is disappointing that people are bashing the Dems so much.  There are political realities that the Dem leadership needs to take into account.  And yes, I'm talking about the idiotic Blue Dogs.  

                  It's good to keep up the pressure, but we need to remember that politics can be a messy process.  The wimpy Blue Dogs have been afraid to stand up for the past 6 years and that is not going to end now.  

                  Basically it's not Pelosi or Reid's fault how things are, and we should cut them a little slack.  

                  Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

                  by Asak on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 12:09:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Isn't Bush going to veto the thing anyway? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    buhdydharma
    •  that's the silver lining (6+ / 0-)

      If Bush vetoes, he ends the damn funding himself! :)

      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:01:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you about the (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        buhdydharma, ImpeachKingBushII

        deadline.  I think that is pretty significant.  We've been demanding that the Dems do something, and a deadline . . . is something.

        It's pushing in the right direction, and so it's a start.

        What I don't entirely get is how we're supposed to sync up the idea that the "war" is illegal after Sept. 1, 2008, with our candidates saying they will keep troops in Iraq after 2009.

        Seriously, what is that about?

        •  Looks to me (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII

          ... like it would put our Dem candidates on the spot: Get Us The Hell Outta There.

        •  I can't believe our candidates are so stupid.. (0+ / 0-)

          As to say something like that.  WTF are they thinking?  Even if it's true (which is disappointing in itself), they need to look at what Nixon did, he ran two times on ending the war!  With something as toxic as the Iraq war, you don't say you'll keep the troops in!  

          Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

          by Asak on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 12:10:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  True if he vetoes he kills the bill and... (0+ / 0-)

        ...Congress has to start all over again. Meanwhile do the troops in harm's way do without while Congress and Bush fight it out here? Sounds risky. Bush is just crazy enough to jeopardize the troops just to make his point. He doesn't care about them.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:59:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No. (0+ / 0-)

      He'll take the money.

      This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
      This is only a test.
      If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

      by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:00:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm bashing them on NOT focusing on Iraq. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, buhdydharma, blueoasis

    As Will Rogers said. "I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

    Instead of Iraq, Iraq, Iraq every day, as it should be, a good number of the new Democrats and old Democrats have been wandering back off onto their pre-1994 agendas, totally irrelevant things.

    The neocons get their way because they know how to march in perfect, precise stride, presenting a united front. The dems keep falling over each other and wandering entirely off the parade route onto sidestreets.

    That's my issue with them.

    •  Well, I disagree (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Asak, mcfly, Elise, DBunn, dyrrachium

      I mean, what would you have the Democrats drop from their agenda?  Oversight?  Hearings of the USA firings?  Hearings to investigate the Plame outing?  Trying to increase the minimum wage? Reducing student loan interest rates?  Enacting the 9/11 commission recommendations?  Fully funding interoperability of the first responders?  Giving employees the freedom to join a union without fear or favor?  Which of those agendas should they drop or ignore?

      In addition, those issues isolate and weaken the administration.  The more this administration is weakened, the more the hand of the progressive movement in strengthened on everything, including Iraq.  We need to take on this administration from all sides.

      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:13:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, not those issues...the PET issues. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueoasis

        The obsessive, "WTF are you doing that for NOW?" issues.

        Things like speeches on the evils of...video games and demand for more legislatation, courtesy of Hillary Clinton and Lieberman.

        Things like Carolyn McCarthy's renewed call for unreasonable bans on scary-looking rifles that has 30 cosponsors...all dems...and is quickly causing Republican voters who voted for Dems this time to lose confidence. The neocons couldn't have engineered a better distraction from the issues at hand. I can't tell you how many dismaying comments of "I believed them this time...sorry I voted for..." I've overheard.

        It's happened on the state level, too. One of my state representatives...a Democrat, yes, called out of the blue for a high tax (and tax stamp!) on CANDY, of all things, causing shouts of "see, Dems just want to raise taxes!" More distraction. Meanwhile, those of neocon bent even at the state level are in lockstep with BushCo, focused on his agenda at the state level.

        Those are PET issues. Oversight is important and part of the Iraq process. Plame is part of the whole deal. Focusing on taking down the bastards is part of the Iraq issues.

        All that, yes. Pet issues and pork, NO.

        •  Good point (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Elise, Loboguara, DBunn

          I do concede those.  But hey, the House is a body of 435 very opinionated people; the hope of stopping all of them from pursuing their pet issues is less than herding 435 cats and not losing even one.  On the other hand, they are not really getting all that much attention.

          "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

          by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:25:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Howdy deaniac! (6+ / 0-)

    Let's start here....

    This bill declares the war illegal after September 1, 2008.  But, it does not explicitly cut off funding thereafter.  That has caused an uproar.  Before we go on an all out war against the Democratic majority though, we need to understand that it doesn't mean much either way.  Saying it is illegal does in fact send a signal that Congress will not stand by this war after that date.  Quite likely, that would mean defunding,

    What action will the Dems be willing to take.....what dramatic action will they willingly engage in to end the war.............two months before the Presidential election.
    ?

    Zippo

    Second question....will Bush sign even this bill? IF it makes it through the Senate?

    This bill is meaningless.

    The first bill was ALWAYS going to be meaningless, so it needed to be STRONG. This is NOT strong.

    •  Umm, if Bush vetoes (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Elise, DBunn

      he will be vetoing funding.  That would end the war now.  That's the best of all scenarios.  As for your other points, I disagree.  I think by this time next year, the administration will be far more weak (what with all these investigations and all), and there may actually be more political will to enforce Congress' own words.

      And it's not 2 and a half months.  If Congress is going to cut off funding, it will have happened at least 6 months before then, authorizing the last funding, and making clear the money well dries up after that.

      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:16:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ermmm. (0+ / 0-)

        The last funding bill passed will be 6 months before.  The decision not to pass another one will be right there crawling up the cat's craw, though.

        •  Not really (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LithiumCola, DBunn

          Congress can make it clear 6 months before the funding is to end that it will end.  Just like if this bill included a defunding, it would do that same thing, send a message.  Of course the ultimate decision comes when the founding runs out.  And then I think they will have the balls to stop it.

          Yeah, I am a craaaaaaazy optimist.  But if I wasn't, I could never be in politics.

          :-)

          "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

          by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:20:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So why not just do defunding now? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            theyrereal, blueoasis
            •  because that language (0+ / 0-)

              won't pass right now.  That's pretty much it.

              "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

              by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:26:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But why not? (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                buhdydharma, theyrereal, blueoasis

                That's the question you're avoiding - why won't that language pass? And what do we need to do to make it pass?

                You're simply excusing failure here, and not probing this issue very deeply. It's poor politics.

                I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                Neither is California High Speed Rail

                by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:27:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ummm (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  buhdydharma

                  it won't pass right now, because the votes are not there to pass it right now.  It takes 218 votes.  We don't have that now.  It's plain and simple.  They tried to get the votes.  The votes weren't there.

                  Is it a failure?  Yes.  Would I rather they did not fail?  Yes.  But would it be a greater failure if no strings at all was attached?  You betcha.  So yes, obviously the Democrats had some failures here.  No one is denying that.  I am not touting this bill as some sort of a grand Democratic success story.  But pragmatically, it's better than nothing.

                  What do we need to do to make the defunding language in?  Generate enough calls from within their districts to the Blue Dogs that they start shitting in their pants.

                  "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                  by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:34:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It is their JOB to get the votes (5+ / 0-)

                    If they don't do their job they deserve to be bashed.

                    The Dems who vote against the leadership and who will not vote to end the war, deserve to be bashed.

                    Right?

                    •  DING DING DING (5+ / 0-)

                      That's exactly the case.  Arm-twisting, deal-making, whatever it takes to get it done.  Old-fashioned back-room politics.  

                    •  Again, yes it's a failure (0+ / 0-)

                      but not one that I believe merits preventing what is there now from going through.  That's what it comes down to.  And the Democratic leadership deserve some credit for trying, too.  This whole line of argument that wants an all or nothing game is not practical.  

                      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:45:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What's "practical" (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        eugene, buhdydharma, blueoasis

                        is admitting that this bill is a failure and trying something different.  Figuring out a way to twist a few arms, make a few deals, find a new tactic or strategy to defund the war and NOT GIVE Bush his $100 BILLION more fucking DOLLARS of OUR MONEY.  

                        How the hell hard can that be when Bush's ratings are in the 20's AND he's a lame duck to boot?  

                        Howard Dean says Bush is relying on Dems being weak:

                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        •  what's practical (0+ / 0-)

                          is something that can pass.  Period.

                          I don't think Howard Dean thinks this bill is totally chicken.

                          "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                          by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:55:56 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  disagree 1000% (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            blueoasis

                            A bad bill that passes is worse than a good bill that doesn't exist yet, but can.  

                            Failure really isn't an option here.  People are dying every day.  This isn't just politics as usual.  This isn't about a bridge in Alaska.  This is about saving a LOT of lives.

                            This bill ain't gonna do that.  Which means it's a goddamn shame, and a disgrace.

                            If the war is going to go on anyway, and the people are going to die anyway, what good is passing this bill?  So Dems can FEEL BETTER about themselves?  Fuck that.  

                            Throw it out, start over.  Let us know when you've actually saved a few lives.  

                            •  I am happy to have you (0+ / 0-)

                              come up with an approach that will pass.  It's easy for us to sit on the outside and say start over and get something better.  I don't think they didn't try.

                              And you are right that a bad bill that passes is worse than a good bill that doesn't exist.  But one, I don't think this is a "bad bill."  It could be better, but it is not "bad."  Second, a bad bill that will pass is better than a worse bill that will also pass (i.e. no strings funding).

                              "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                              by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:03:00 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                  •  You're right it's a failure. And Congress is (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    eugene, theyrereal, blueoasis

                    ...responsible along with the administration for this war.

                    They all get bashed for that.

                    Stop trying to shut people up.

                    It's going to get alot worse, if you think this "bashing' is bad.

                    Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

                    by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:45:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Lol (0+ / 0-)

                      not like I would be successful in shutting anyone up.  But respectfully, I have a right to state my opinion as well.  I think they are being bashed too much, and I will state that.  You have as much a right to bash them as I do to say that your bashing is unproductive and counterproductive.

                      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:54:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Why aren't the votes there? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    blueoasis

                    And what can we do to get them?

                    We would be doing so much better if we finally asked those questions.

                    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                    Neither is California High Speed Rail

                    by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:09:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I already answered that (0+ / 0-)

                      in this thread.

                      Why aren't the votes there?

                      Blue Dogs.

                      And what can we do to get them?

                      Generate so many calls from INSIDE their (blue dogs) districts that they start shitting in their pants.  It seems, though, that isn't happening.  And I don't know the answer to why it's not.  Maybe you do.

                      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:12:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You're getting partway there (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        blueoasis, BentLiberal

                        You have identified what needs to be done - pressure the Blue Dogs like hell until they give in.

                        So instead of telling us to stop bashing Democrats, you're tacitly admitting here that, in fact, MORE bashing is needed - just bashing of a targeted kind, part of a wider plan and platform.

                        Telling us to accept defeat and move on is not the way to solve this problem.

                        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                        Neither is California High Speed Rail

                        by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:15:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No I am not (0+ / 0-)

                          UGH, I hate it when people put words in my mouth.

                          So instead of telling us to stop bashing Democrats, you're tacitly admitting here that, in fact, MORE bashing is needed -

                          Umm, no.  By Democrats, I meant the Democratic leadership, and I thought that was pretty obvious in the context.  And I am not admitting that we need more bashing of them.

                          Telling us to accept defeat and move on is not the way to solve this problem.

                          Well, I don't think it's a defeat.  It's a tactical first move that took some concessions in order to pass, as far as I am concerned.  If this wasn't a first move, it would be defeat.  I am saying we should let this pass now while continuing to stay on the case.

                          Ending the war, friends, is not simply a resolution.  It is a campaign.  In that campaign, we will not be discouraged because we don't get something perfect today.  We will not simply give up the campaign because don't think we are moving fast enough.  We will not, for the sake of our troops, our country and our world, end this campaign until its goal has been achieved.

                          That was the last paragraph of my diary.  How you make the leap from there to accepting defeat is beyond me.

                          "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                          by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:21:56 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  It doesn't have to "pass." (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                Think "not funding" rather than "de-funding." When the  last appropriation runs out, it runs out.

                This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
                This is only a test.
                If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

                by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:56:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah, I already said (0+ / 0-)

                  why that won't work.  Read up.  There isn't the political will to do that nothing, and Democrats promised they won't simply end funding immediately during last year's campaign.  There was every demand for them to say that they would, and Pelosi consistently rejected that.

                  "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                  by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:00:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It doesn't end immediately. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    eugene, blueoasis

                    It ends when the last appropriation runs out.

                    This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
                    This is only a test.
                    If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

                    by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:07:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  which is kinda sorta now (0+ / 0-)

                      that's why there is a new funding request... and in any case, Pelosi rejected just doing that last year too.

                      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                      by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:23:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There were promises to end the War (0+ / 0-)

                        and promises to fund it. One of these will have to be broken.  Take your pick.

                        This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
                        This is only a test.
                        If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

                        by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:52:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think there's a third way (0+ / 0-)

                          and this bill is its beginning - and ONLY the begging - phase.  It would be one thing if we were stuck here after 2 years of Democratic power, but we only have real power in one house of Congress, and that only for a little more than two months.

                          Besides, there are some good elements of the bill, discussed in the diary.  I would just like to say everyone read the whole diary.  It's not Ann Coulter rant long or anything.

                          "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

                          by deaniac83 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:58:42 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Passing funding he'd veto was a clever idea, (0+ / 0-)

                            but with the bill that's emerged, the Republican can provide just enough "defections" to enable it to pass. Bush will sign it, append signing statement, and argue about the strings later, running out the clock.

                            This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
                            This is only a test.
                            If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

                            by ben masel on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 12:08:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Well, now what? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma

      Since Bush is going to veto it, it's not the first bill.  So what should we do?

      •  If it goes through we are pretty screwed (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pico, theyrereal, blueoasis

        the best hope Believe it or not....is Ben Nelson and Mark Pryor turning turncoat and voting against it like they did Reids.

        Then we can start over with a clear and simple plan....

        Defund the Occupation, Fund the Withdrawal.

        And try it in the court of public opinion.

        That gets it through the Senate .....with the right pressure.....all we need is two Goopers (I think?)

        Then Bush has to sign veto a law that simply and clearly states: We will NOT fund the war past XXX date. But we WILL fully fund the withdrawl starting right NOW.

        But the framing is the key part. And the Dems have to be farily unified to pull off the framing. Back to the Blue Dogs

        Look for the Diary of this tomorrow!

      •  Why would he veto it? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueoasis

        It gives him the money to continue the War. The rest is just scribblings on the envelope.

        This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
        This is only a test.
        If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

        by ben masel on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:59:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And you get closer to the key point (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma, blueoasis

      Bush's veto power is not relevant here. Since Dems don't control the White House, that means the next 2 years are years of jockeying for political position. Backing Republicans into a corner and forcing them to defend the war - at obvious political peril - is a very wise strategy. And it can in itself bring the war to an end by getting the GOP to be scared into backing us - or did nobody else notice how Gordon Smith voted last week?

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:26:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The deadline is too soon (0+ / 0-)

    I think I might rather see it set for December 1, 2008, than September 1, 2008.  The current date is way too politically convenient...let the war run as long as possible while still being able to hand it back to Bush  a few weeks before the election.

  •  The Dems will stop getting bashed (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pico, buhdydharma, theyrereal, BentLiberal

    When the war ends. Until it does, they can handle our bashing, they're big boys and girls.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:23:11 PM PDT

    •  Agree (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, Uthaclena, buhdydharma, blueoasis

      It is the role of this site (or at least of many posters here) to push for the right thing. That is a valuable and necessary role. We have to keep the goal in view, always.

      •  Agree, AND It's Not 'Bashing' (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, blueoasis

        It's lobbying, it's making our voices heard, it's saying 'This is the primary issue,' and applying political pressure. ' This is why we elected you, if you don't do it we will remember come re-election.' It's saying, we support Representative So-and-so, we expect you to support them and vote for their bill. Write letters to the editor to shame them; whatever works! End this immoral war!

        Repeat as necessary, again, and again, and again.

        "You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -Abbie Hoffman

        by Uthaclena on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:49:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yep: Dems, Repubs (Congress) and (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene

      the administration should all be bashed daily on this war.

      Sheesh, like "bashing" is worse than killing and maiming.

      Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

      by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:50:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The bill is pure shit (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, blueoasis

    Which means it should be tossed.  

    It's a prototype that failed.  

    They need a new tactic, a new strategy.  Hm, kind of like Iraq itself!

    The main thing to do is to fucking DEAL with the "blue dogs".  Twist their arms, make some kind of deals, whatEVER.  Also deal with some of the smarter Repubs who KNOW that they DO NOT want to be clinging to the sinking Bush ship and are looking for a way off.

    It's called "politics" and it used to take place in back rooms filled with cigar smoke.  I don't know what the fuck they're doing now, but it's NOT working.  

    This monstrosity they've cobbled together is about as much a "end the war in Iraq" bill as Frankenstein was a male underwear model.

    Chalk it up to experience, toss it, try something new.  

    It will do more harm than good because they'll all move onto something else, point fingers when Iraq goes even more horribly, then say "well we tried!"

    Trying isn't good enough here.  It just isn't.  Lives are literally at stake, and a LOT of them.  

  •  I'm Slow To Anger. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, BentLiberal, DBunn

    As far as most people I know are concerned, I never get angry.  I never get annoyed, I never raise my voice, I seem infinitely patient.

    But I do get angry.  But, when I do--and it's usually for really important things, when the motives of the people involved are clearly selfish or heartless or nasty--I don't flail around in a blind rage.

    Some people find something appealing in instantly gratifying your gut instinct, in exposing a teeth-gnashing rage for everyone to see.  Even if it all ends--as it usually does--in a pointless, quick, and self-damaging flame out.

    When you're really angry at someone--that once, or twice or three times in a lifetime anger if you're lucky and aren't around a lot of bad people--you get your way the smart way.  It's not always instantly gratifying.  You don't throw yourself at them just to fall on your face exhausted.  You set it up.  Intelligently.  Quietly.  Ploddingly.  You watch them like a hawk.  You take every opportunity to take notes on every little thing about them, and store it away.  And, with a well thought out, intelligent manner, you pull the boa constrictor.  And you suffocate them.

    It works even better if you don't get angry.  To certain people, that calm demeanor seems to really hammer home the bullshit is over.

    Why do I write all of this?  I too, am given to wanting to do something that will work tomorrow.  Something with instant results, for that instant gratification.  And I know that the failure to "do something tomorrow" leads to more death, more chaos, more consequences that can never be righted.

    But there is no solution that will work tomorrow.  The votes aren't there.  Do we really want the grand gesture--the howling at the moon in rage--that fails  completely, has no chance of passing, and is gone by the next news cycle?  That's not a rhetorical question.  Some people think that sends the message the right way.

    It's possible there are Democrats who do not actually want what I want.  So, what do I know.  But, I hope they're just being smart.  Taking the opportunity to do what they can do now, even if it's not the big gesture built up from 4+ years of rage.  And continue to take the opportunities as the come along to keep hammering.  And hammering.  And hammering.

    And if you don't get mad, don't even flinch in the process, but keep pushing ahead with the stoic determination to crush those dumb enough to stand in the way of your steady pace.

    You know, or something.

    •  I say use whatever works to stop the bloodshed... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, dyrrachium

      ...If it takes patience, then I'll be patient-until that doesn't work. If it takes writing letters and calling everyone, then I'll write letters and call everyone-until that doesn't work. If it takes winning a majority in the House and Senate, then I'll work my ass off to win a majority in the House and Senate-until it doesn't work. If it takes thousands to protest in the streets, then I'll protest with thousands in the streets-until that doesn't work. And if it takes anger to get Bush and Congress to listen, then I'll get angry until they listen-until that doesn't work. I'll try "all of the above" continually, and until I drop dead if that's what it takes to STOP BUSH'S WAR and stop the bloodshed!
      NOT ONE MORE DROP OF OUR BLOOD AND NOT ONE MORE LIFE!

      "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:18:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I Hear You. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ImpeachKingBushII

        And that's what it comes down to.

        What I should have added above in that whole long post is this: I am not advocating "caution" when caution is no longer appopriate.

        As I was saying, when you're determined enough to force your will, and you can't accept anything else, you don't just flail out for the sake of theatrics when it is abundantly clear it won't actually succeed.  But when the time does come...when all of your patience, all of the little baby steps you took to get you into that position to have your way...when that time does come, you don't let it pass by.

        Unfortunately, I don't think that time is here.  I think the '06 Election allowed the Democrats to "start setting up," but not to finish the task.  But if they keep pushing forward (and that is an "if," as I said above, I don't know if they're really pushing for what I hope to see), and push, and push...and investigate, and have hearings, and keep Iraq on Page 1 as the MAJORITY party can do in a number of ways, I believe the time will come.  Sadly, I don't think it's tomorrow.  But it's sooner than it was in October of 2006.

        •  I said this downthread... (0+ / 0-)

          ...so forgive me for saving you the trouble by reposting it here so I can agree with your point:

          ...We're attacking him at his greatest STRENGTH, which is his repub allies in the House and Senate! We must turn them against him. The ONLY way to stop Bush's War is to STOP MISTER BUSH! How? We bring HIM and his cabal DOWN! More investigations will reveal more and more high crimes and misdemeanors. Impeach him and his whole inner circle, then we can end his war.

          "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:35:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Brave diary (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    deaniac83, ImpeachKingBushII

    I gave it a rec because the discussion it will provoke is important.

    Plus I support the bill as a first step. I agree with the diarist's reasoning, especially about the paper trail.

    Month after month, Bush either certifies that he's sending ill-equipped, untrained, exhausted and wounded troops into harm's way. Or else he lies, specifically and in writing.

    Month after month, Bush certifies that Iraqi bench marks are not being met. Or else he lies, specifically and in writing.

    The era of vague, passive-voice "mistakes were made" locutions will end. Instead it will be "I, George Bush, on this date made this exact mistake," repeated dozens or hundreds of times.

    Each new admission or lie will cut another little sliver of ground from under him. The cumulative effect will be crushing.

    •  he will lie, specifically and in writing (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      Do you think he CARES?  

      The guy must wake up every day and just laugh his ass off that he's not in JAIL.  He'll just keep lying until his life ebbs away out of him.  

      •  Of course he doesn't care (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ImpeachKingBushII

        The guy is a psycho. He tells 10 lies every day before breakfast.

        No, the point is not that he lies, but that he is seen to be lying. Provably, specifically, in writing, and with everyone watching.

        Will that impress us here on DK? Of course not, we've made up our minds a long time ago. Will the steady drip of specific, provable, written-down, killing-peope-here, $2-billion-a-week lies wear away at guys like Tim Russert and the Blue Dogs? I think it will.

  •  'The Bush People Rely on us to be Chicken' (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    blueoasis

    The Bush People rely on us to be Chicken

    Howard Dean, to a group of So Cal Democrats last night.

    Howard Dean is the only leader we have who's worth a damn.  Let's listen to him.  

  •  Are you kidding? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    deaniac83, GregNYC

    Apparently many people here would rather get out the guns and start shooting themselves and the party...and therefore ALL the progressive issues in the foot...that's MUCH more fun than being patient.

    I mean, it's not as if we're still adjusting to being the majority...and training new staff...and passing bills or holding hearings...the Dems aren't busy doing ANYTHING useful...so why not bash them!?

    Sigh...

    •  Pragmatism has its limits. (6+ / 0-)

      Not easy to tell families of dead soldiers that you couldn't end the war sooner because you were being 'patient'.  

      I'm with the other commenters here: it's our job to push them in the directions we want.  And it's not as if bashing them over a failure to cut funding in Iraq means we can't praise them for their successes elsewhere.

      But I'm very tired of 'pragmatism' being used as a euphemism for 'failure'.  Because that's what we're facing right now: a failure to do what they could have and should have done if they were nearly as organized as the Republicans.  

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:59:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And though he took a lot of flak (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JPete, blueoasis

        here for it, Armando's been pushing this hardcore over at Talkleft.  The conclusion he's come to (and, sadly, I agree) is that Democrats may be hoping to score a second election victory by not ending the war before 2008.  How's that for pragmatism?

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:00:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the irony is (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          srkp23, blueoasis, ImpeachKingBushII

          that if they don't stop the war now, it will likely continue to be prosecuted by the new Dem president.

          Then what's the excuse going to be?

          I can't believe Dems can't see what's coming in 2009.

          Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

          by BentLiberal on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:04:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Um...I believe Armando is wrong on this... (0+ / 0-)

          and if I hadn't been out of town this weekend I would have told him so.

          Of course we can try to push them in the direction we want them to go, but we can't assume that they can ALL go there. And that's what we're seeing right now. We have to assume that many of the more Conservative Dems know their districts better than we do. I can tell you right now that my Rep...Jerry Costello (IL-12) would have a hard time voting to pull funding from Iraq.

          So, we can push all we want...but we don't have 233 Nancy Pelosi's...or 233 of her districts...

          •  So why do we excuse it? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BentLiberal

            We rip into Republicans for war support, but we handle our Dems with kid gloves?  Nothing doing.  They can, and they failed.  I'm all for patting them on the backs when they do well, and in some areas they have been doing well - but they're our employees, and they have to deal with our criticism when they do badly.  

            This is bad.  What I don't understand is why we pretend otherwise and make excuses for it.

            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

            by pico on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:37:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because the alternative is a Republican. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              deaniac83

              Period.

              We can vote to end the war now (not really, but let's assume you could get everyone to do so...)...

              first of all, Bush will veto- so the vote won't even accomplish what you WANT to accomplish.

              Secondly, we'll lose probably 30-40 seats out of the deal...and our Majority...(which we COULD increase by a few seats in 2008 to maybe make a veto-proof majority btw)...replace those Dems (who vote our way on almost all issues with the exception of a small handful) with Republicans who will vote with us NEVER.

              This isn't about excuses- this is about what IS possible vs. what simply is not possible. We do not have the kind of majorities we need in the Senate and House to accomplish what we want to accomplish...so we have to do what we CAN do instead...and they need our support to do even that...because there will be consequences for some of these Dems in 2008...especially some of those Blue Dogs everyone loves complaining about...28 of them btw...all in districts that voted for Bush overwhelmingly...and all of whom won by a margin of 2% or less.

              My joke refers to people who don't just criticize when they do badly...there are people here who have done NOTHING but complain since we took over. NOTHING is good enough for them. No amount of good will ever compensate for the fact that we can't immediately pull the troops out of Iraq...but the reality is that we can't at the moment...so we have to do what we CAN for the troops int he meantime, and get them out as quickly as we can. I don't see this happening before 2008---not because of the House election...but because we won't be able to get out before the White House shifts to a Dem.

              •  I'm not sure it will even happen then (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                pico

                I don't see this happening before 2008---not because of the House election...but because we won't be able to get out before the White House shifts to a Dem.

                I think that there are some Dems (running for president) who will continue to prosecute this war. My worry is that the current admininistration will escalate it (more troops) and expand it (into a regional war) and try to make it as intractable as possible....meaning very hard to pull out of.

                That's why I think we should work to end it now, the sooner the better. I just do