Daily Kos

sorry Tom (Vilsack): Stop Hillary!

Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:09:46 PM PDT

Tom and Christie just sent out a spam email endorsing Hillary's candidacy.

Sorry, Tom and Christie (I can drop the "Gov." given their email's informality), but Hillary's Presidential bid must be stopped. No more DLC manipulation.

No matter which Democrat among the top 8 wins the Primary, they will go on to win the General Election in 2008. (Gore, Richardson, Edwards, Clark, Dodd, Biden, Obama, Hillary.)  So "electibility" is not an issue this time around. Not that it was in 2004, either, as proven by John "Flip-Flop" Kerry. Besides which, Bill Clinton won in 1992 because Ross Perot took 19% of the vote (and 7% in 1996), dividing Bush Sr's vote and derailing Bush's campaign as he fended off another Texan businessman competitor. Not because Bill compromised Democratic values to appease corporate-America. Bill never won a majority of the national vote, he was always under 50%.

Tom Vilsack was the DLC Chair.  

So, Hillary = Vilsack = DLC = Koch Industries. No, thanks.

2008 is more like 1976, post-Nixon: the public has awoken to the fact that business-as-usual is broken inside Washington, DC's Beltway. The fact that some conformist DLC insiders are lining up like slaves-in-chains to help Hillary's campaign is all you need to know to oppose it. (The insiders with more integrity are with me: anyone but Hillary.)  The fact that Hillary has vindictively let the rumor spread that anyone who works on another campaign will not be offered a (high-level) position if she wins is proof of the foul-pudding.

She is not looking out for Democratic values. She is looking out for revenge, for herself and the pain she has suffered, and is "in to win" no matter what it takes. That's not what we need in this election.

As in 1976, we need someone to sweep clean the Aegean Stables. Not the ultimate insider-Senator. You can't clean out the Culture of Corruption if you are the most dependent on it to get elected in the first place, you will be beholden to your corporate-sponsors. (My current rank-order preference is as listed above, but that's not my point; any of the other seven candidates would be fine.)

Gore scares the DLC because he will implement policies to save the planet.  (Gosh, wouldn't want that, eh Exxon?) Edwards scares the DLC because he supports consumer rights against corporations. (Eek, General Electric/MSNBC/NBC News, better run more stories about "tort-reform"). Richardson scares the DLC because, well, I don't know, maybe because he's so competent that they can't control him?

Of course Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's other sexual dalliances are a campaign issue (much as they might not be in an ideal world). Wake up to reality. Do you really think that Hillary will be effective in achieving Democratic goals (if elected) with this baggage chained to her neck? As if her opponents, both domestic and foreign, won't use every conceivable way to needle and undermine her? Sure, Hillary gets icy (frigid?) whenever Bill's blow-jobs are mentioned, so what? I feel sorry for her on a personal basis, but she has chosen to enter the race for control of the most powerful empire ever created, so nothing is forbidden. Since when does a single candidate get to dictate the terms of international political discourse? Will Putin respect these delicate wishes of Hillary?  Sunni insurgents? Shiite foes? Will the Republican opposition at home?  The right-wing media that we dKosians all know and hate? Swift Vets and other 527s? No way. (Btw, do you really think Willie is tamed?)

[Fwiw, I ardently defended Bill Clinton against the "politics of personal destruction" throughout the 1990s. I publicly spoke out and wrote articles about the precise definition of "sexual relations" (it means coitus), pointing out that Bill was quite careful in his lawyerly choice of words. He misled the public, and having a sexual affair with a 22 year-old intern is not a good role model for a husband and father, but he did not lie under oath.]

I am a feminist. I denounce glass-ceilings for women in business and politics. I support public and corporate policies to promote this. I'd be happy with mandatory gender balance in the House and Senate, for example! As well as more realistic policy goals, like better day-care, maternity and paternity leave, research funding for women's health issues, preserving choice, health insurance, etc. Therefore I do not want to see the first woman President come riding in on the coat-tails of an ex-President husband. Just what kind of lesson does that set for my daughter?  "Marry an ambitious man, and you could get power through him, too?"  

I've worked in the Fortune-100 corporate world. I expect these firms to look after their own interests and I know that their employees face incentive-structures to do the same. Because of this, I look for real leadership in my political candidates. (Did you know, for example, that the Fortune 500 employs fewer people than female-led small businesses, alone?  Not to mention male-led small-business? The only reason for deference to the Fortune 500 is because their interests are concentrated and organized.)

The better, more-principled appointees of the Bill Clinton Administration will not go back in if Hillary wins. They've had enough. What we'd be left with is syncophantic, third-string, incestuous, lousy policy-makers. The clearest example of this was Mary Matalin's husband, James Carville, clamoring for Howard Dean's resignation on November 8, 2007, after Dean's 50-state strategy successfully reclaimed both the US House and Senate, against all odds of a year ago. The DLC had spent two years attacking Dean for not raising enough money and for spending too much of it. After Dean's triumph in the 2006 election the best the DLC could come up with was that he didn't borrow enough! *laf* I'm not making this up: the DLC/Carville critique was that Dean didn't borrow the maximum on a $10 million credit-line.

(dKosians know this from upteen diaries: Dean's picks for Congress fared better than Rahm Emmanuel's, despite the latter's shameless chutzpah on Nov. 8 trying to claim credit. Give Gov. Dean credit for rising above this intra-party split, putting oil on the waters, and graciously sharing credit all around. But also don't forget: contrary to the pre-election fears of some that Rahm's fundraising was what mattered most, this turned out not to be true.)

Knowing how ineffective a President Hillary would be, I will continue to do everything I democratically can to prevent that from happening. She would be that bad for Democrats. The thought of hearing her voice as President for four years makes me cringe.

Here are some excerpts (in context) from what Tom and Christie wrote me:

When I make a decision, I go all in and follow through. Hillary Clinton has the same determination...

Bfd. We don't want unprincipled ambition, we're better than that.

By standing with Hillary now we'll help show that we are strong enough to win back the White House

Bullcrap. Standing up for our values is the only strength we'll need this election. By caving-in and joining the dynastic Hillary charade, we sacrifice all the political lessons we've learned the past six years.

Christie and I plan on spending the next 10 months helping Hillary win the Iowa caucuses

Govern much, Tom?  This is pretty telling: his DLC corporate-sponsors are so afraid of people like Edwards, Richardson, Gore etc. that he will devote 10 months of his life to Hillary.

of all the candidates running, she has the best ideas

Oh, please!  She is the ultimate opportunist. She surrounds herself with sell-out loyalists. She has virtually no new ideas.

the most energy

Are you kidding?  Have any of you shaken hands with her, seen her up close?  She is chronically exhausted. Her face is already heavily-lined (despite the pancake makeup) from the campaign rigors and the race has barely begun. She briefly gears up for a public appearance then needs to crash for hours or days (protected by Mignon and other longtime aides).

the values and vision to lead our country in the right direction

The right-wing direction, maybe. C'mon, this is not 1992, we've had fifteen years of research and understanding. The once-vaunted "third way" (including Will Marshall's "Regressive Policy Institute" has been exposed as the corporate-shills they are. They are not "centrist" (centered between which two strawmen?), they are pro-corporate. Follow the money. Cui bono. Whoever pays the piper calls the song.

She's going to put an end to the war in Iraq.

Oh, horse-manure! (Iowa's a farm-state, Tom, you understand the fertilizer metaphors.) She's already announced publicly that she will keep troops in Iraq for years to come. *sheesh*, Tom, do you think we don't read the news? Do you think we don't see Hillary bending over backwards to pander? Do you think we don't recognize that she is not a real leader, she is a follower of whichever groups she thinks she needs to appeal to? Do you think we don't know that she introduced a Senate Bill to make it a Crime to burn an American flag, because it might "intimidate" anyone?  (Co-sponsored by Utah's Republican Senator Bennett, just great.) Supported the invasion of Iraq (as did the DLC's Rahm Emmanuel). Do you think that Hillary can pander to the right and not be compromised by this if elected? (This is the clearest lesson from the Gore and Kerry candidacies: you cannot sell-out and expect to win an election, nor to govern effectively if you do.) Voters are looking for a real leader, who will re-frame and reshape the agenda, not pander to corporate-media. Go back to your corporate paymasters and re-think, Tom.

She's going to make sure every American has access to affordable health care.

So why is her plan so much weaker than Edwards', Richardson's, etc.?  

the critical March 31 FEC deadline [for contributions] is just five days away. We must show the magnitude of the grassroots support for this campaign in the next five days.

No! The real reason Hillary is reaching out now is she needs to demonstrate numbers of grass-roots support, in order to bring down the average size of her contributions. Most of her backers have already maxed out for the Primary (giving over $2,100 each). So she wants little donations ($5) in order to reduce the average. Tricky, eh?  

Instead, now is the time to do the opposite of what Hillary wants: please give even $1 to all the other campaigns!  (Please give more if you can, to cover their costs of printing. And please volunteer for them -- it's not glamorous stuffing envelopes or replying to emails, but volunteers are what make campaigns work.)  Pull back the curtain on Hillary's corporate-funding.

Christie and I are going to travel around our state and the country, introducing Hillary to our friends and talking to everyone we meet about why Hillary is the right choice for Iowa and America.

Say, Tom, are you and Christie going to announce that you were the Chair of the DLC and that it gets all its funding from large corporations?  Or -- as you travel around the country -- are you going to hide this inconvenient truth, too?

Poll

Should Hillary be stopped?

69%62 votes
23%21 votes
6%6 votes

| 89 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, 2008 Elections, Iraq, war, Democrats, Republicans, President, Al Gore, John Edwards, Bill Richardson, Wesley Clark, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Barack Obama, Tom Vilsack, Iowa, primaries, Democratic Party, DLC, DNC, Howard Dean, framing, Bill Clinton, netroots, Monica Lewinsky, corporations, campaign finance, Ross Perot (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 198 comments

  •  polls this early mean nothing (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Lady Bird Johnson

    I forgot to say: polls this early are irrelevant. All they measure is name-recognition. As late as September 2003, Joe Lieberman was in first-place in the Democratic Primary, polling well-above all other candidates. (That's six months away, for 2007.) And of course Dean was polling well going into Iowa. Early polls mean nothing.

  •  Great diary (9+ / 0-)

    advocating your chosen client. So much better than the ones that spend all of their time bashing one they don't support.

    Oh wait....

    •  LOL! (4+ / 0-)

      Yeah - you gotta wonder who the diarist supports.

      I'm guessing McCain.

      •  I support Gore, Richardson, Edwards, Obama. (0+ / 0-)

        Gore is my first-choice, above the others. I'm about even on Richardson, Edwards, and Obama, though am open to persuasion. I like Dodd, though I worry about critical momentum. Same with Clark. For Biden, I'd need to learn more who is surrounding himself with.

        •  Your first choice is Gore. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Alegre, cpresley

          Yet, you don't see the irony in what you are doing?  My first choice is also Gore and that's why I will defend Hillary at every chance I get.

          "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

          by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:52:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The anti Hillary hate-festing does seem to (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Caldonia, Alegre, emsprater, 0wn

        have originate at NewsMax or the American Spectator...fascinating how this happens.

        •  and others (0+ / 0-)

          Many others.  That's part of the problem.

          It sucks.  I don't like it.  I wish it weren't so, I wish there weren't the hate.  I wish the right-wing hadn't taken hold of this country from the top-down.

          "Triangulation" is part of the problem that put us in this mess.  Let's not repeat those mistakes.

          •  "Triangulation" (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Alegre, emsprater, cpresley

            Name one candidate out of the top 3 that you can say with one hundred percent certainty is not triangulating.  Personally, I see Edwards as much more of a triangulator than Hillary.  Atleast Hillary has the courage to stand by her decisions.

            "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

            by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:18:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  all campaign contributions come with a cost (0+ / 0-)

              Agreed that politics is about the art of balancing compromise and leadership.  So, yes, all candidates have some degree of "triangulation" -- thus, e.g., Bush said (deceitfully) he is a "compassionate conservative."  But Bill and Hillary's whole DLC approach is about triangulation -- and they undermined the Democratic wing of the Democratic party in the process.  (Yes, it makes me queasy that Mr. Triangulation himself, Dick Morris, is now attacking Hillary with a vengeance. What a loathesome "man". But it's a political reality that cannot be excluded from analyzing the 2008 race. Hillary is not my enemy, I just want her as Senator, not as the Democratic candidate.)

              On campaign contribs: please forgive this repost of a comment below, it's an important point that might otherwise get lost in the threadwork:

              It's how the candidates react to those campaign contributions that means something.

              I respectfully disagree.  Once you have reached out for a campaign contribution, negotiated the terms (it's a dance, not explicit, mainly unspoken signalling), and received the money, then all human-beings I have met will be influenced by this process. Unconsciously, you will feel you owe the donor something. It's just human nature. And you will then find yourself defending them, if someone attacks them (or attacks you for taking their money).

              For example, in fact, PhRMA lobbyists will deliberately try to give money to bona fide progressive candidates, because they know that once the candidate accepts the money, they have been "bought" and can no longer rail against "nasty PhRMA lobby" without looking hypocritical.  Clever, eh what?

    •  First Diary (6+ / 0-)

      All of three comments so far.

      I smell a rat.

  •  Efficient use of tags. :) (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PhillyGuy03
    •  She forgot the (5+ / 0-)

      GOP talking points tag.

      •  She's going for the GOP Team Leader mouse pad (6+ / 0-)

        I bet. You know that's a hot item but you gotta work to get that.

        The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

        by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:19:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Alegre, godislove

          she is just very "concerned."

          •  "Concerned", but not enough ... (0+ / 0-)

            to talk up the attributes of her preferred candidate, just "concerned" enough to "stop" a specific "one".

            "Hillary Hate" is a disease that will not be cured until after the primaries.

            by emsprater on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:26:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  for some of us (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Silverbird, Sharon Wraight

              that is what this primary is about.  I have the exact same feelings as the diarist.   She has made it clear why she feels that way.  

              Hillary has the most money and the momentum.  If we want other candidates to have a chance, we have to try to help them all and stop her.  I have no problem with that.  I'm sure Hillary would do the same thing.  

              And I can happily say if she wins i won't vote for her.  I live in NY.  She will win the state as any democrat will and i can say i won't vote for her or the republican and you all can say nasty things about me.   Honestly, if the best this country can do is hillary clinton at this point in time, we will continue to get what we deserve.  More class war.

              bush clinton bush clinton...the corporations love both families.

              •  Get real. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                emsprater

                It's one thing to point out a policy difference, but it's quite another to say that one candidate is some how more corporate-friendly than another.  During his Senate term, Edwards had just about the same attitude towards corporations as Hillary does.

                "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:52:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  have you heard what he (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  is saying now?

                  he is talking about putting the needs of the people before those of the corporations.  

                  I am getting real.  Do i think Obama and Edwards etc might also be corporation friendly?  Yes.  Is it possible they could be a lot more people friendly than Hillary?  You betcha.  I'm willing to take that chance as I don't see it as a chance at all.  I don't see what positives Hillary brings to the table other than "she's been in the whitehouse".   Yeah, well W was in the whitehouse working as his daddies hatchet man for 4 years.  Didn't help us any.

                  •  Talk is cheap. (0+ / 0-)

                    He can say whatever he wants now that he's out of the Senate.  It's safe now.  That is not going to change his record.  In fact, Hillary is the only candidate to seriously consider a carbon tax.  Do you think the corporations are going to like that?  I don't think so.  

                    "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                    by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:03:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  great (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      i'm not saying hillary doesn't have any good ideas.  I'm saying that she has way too many known negatives for me to support her.

                      talk certainly is cheap.  That is one thing you and I agree on.  Clintons are really good talkers.  

                      •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

                        Edwards has convinced you that he's a progressive.  His talk must be pretty good as well.

                        "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                        by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:50:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  nope (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight

                          edwards has convinced me that he won't be as bad as hillary and he has said no permanent bases in iraq.  not very high standards but we got to start somewhere.

                          that is what you hillary fans don't understand.  Its not wacko lefties that so strong support her.  its longterm democrats who are fed up and aren't just going to give in to the "well she is better than bush" argument.  We have to do better than "better than bush".  Its a really low standard.

  •  Basically, you oppose democracy. (6+ / 0-)

    People who would like to have Hillary as president aren't entitled to vote for their choice, because you oppose her?

    Bizarre.

    The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

    by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:16:30 PM PDT

    •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

      Sorry, either I don't understand your comment or it sets up a straw-person argument to knock down. Every voter has the right to vote for whomever they want. My Diary expresses my opinion. Please engage in the discussion if you wish.  

      •  So, if the majority want Hillary as the nominee (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cpresley

        and the majority of Americans want her as president, you're totally down with the process?

        The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

        by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:30:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No (0+ / 0-)

          Again, I don't understand what you're saying, or you're making up straw-person arguments. As part of the process I would support someone else. I would accept the results (duh, what is the alternative?). Please don't put words or arguments in my mouth.

          •  I didn't. I took you at face value. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cpresley

            It's never occurred to you what you're saying. You want Hillary "stopped". That word means you aren't interested in working within the system, because losing a primary is not "stopping" someone.

            You have no right to "stop" anyone from running. That's what totalitarians do - not democrats.

            The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

            by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:37:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stop her through the democratic process (0+ / 0-)

              That's why I'm posting on dKos, and urging support for any (all) of the other major Democratic candidates.

              That word means you aren't interested in working within the system, because losing a primary is not "stopping" someone.

              Hunh???  I am working within the system, I urge others to do so (again, what alternative are you implying?).  Your logic escapes me.  

              "Defeat Hillary in the primary" -- is that more clear to you?

              •  But that isn't what you said, is it? (0+ / 0-)

                The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:43:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  let's see if I got this straight (0+ / 0-)

                  To you, the word "Stop" in a political context implies non-democratic, totalitarian control.  

                  You prefer the word "Defeat."  

                  To me, "Stop" in the context of my post of course implies using the democratic process, that's what this is all about, and is synonymous with "defeat."

                  Are we agreed so far?  

                  For the third time, what alternative are you imputing to me, if not the democratic process?

                  •  Well someone else (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    cpresley

                    below said she should have to withdraw from the race to acknowledge the preferences of voters who won't vote for her.

                    There is an underlying tone that I see where Clinton's right to run for President and run her campaign to win is somehow in question.

                    If that's not the case, I think maybe it's only cause I read too much into the vituperativeness of the rhetoric.  I'd have to say that's my bad.

                    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:51:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Then why are you trying to prevent Vilsack (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    cpresley

                    from endorsing her? That's his right and you have a problem with him using his free speech to endorse a candidate you think needs to be "stopped".

                    The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                    by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:56:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There's some confusion here that we can sort out (0+ / 0-)

                      Of course, Tom and Christie have every right to endorse and otherwise engage in Democratic politics, and I and others have every right to democratically speak out against them. Debate, opposition, discussion, engagement are all the essence of democracy and free-speech. Don't we agree on this?
                         I disagree with Tom's choice of candidates, and his cozying up to corporate-America, for the reasons  stated above (and others). I don't have a problem with him using his free speech, I do object to what he uses it for. (In your book, is speaking out against any person's endorsement a "problem with him using free speech"? I don't get it.)  

                      you think needs to be "stopped".

                      You seem to object to this democratic usage of "stopped".  See my comment on this, above.  (To repeat: for me, "Stop" in the context of my post of course implies using the democratic process, that's what this is all about, and is synonymous with "defeat.")

                      For the fourth time, Lorelynn, what alternative are you imputing to me, if not the democratic process? What do you think I advocate? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from, what you're saying.  

                      someone below said she should have to withdraw from the race to acknowledge the preferences of voters who won't vote for her.

                      I don't see this, and can't speak for others in any case. I've never met anyone who thinks any candidate should have to withdraw from a race. Who would tell them? (Well, maybe Nader in 2000. :-) Which I probably did think McAwful should have done, and maybe he did.)

                      underlying tone that I see where Clinton's right to run for President and run her campaign to win is somehow in question.

                      Of course she has the right to run, as do you. Selling out Democratic values when it is not necessary to win, that I object to.

                      I'd have to say that's my bad.

                      No problem, I know I was on a tear.

                      •  Frankly, your use of the word "stopped" is creepy (0+ / 0-)

                        I have no idea what the alternatives are but your word use is at odds with your expressed intent.

                        You coulda said "we have to do what we can to make sure someone else wins" but you didn't. You coulda said, "so and so would be a much better candidate because..." but you didn't.

                        You went right for fascistic language and it's creepy.

                        The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                        by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 07:53:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  IMHO you're overly sensitive to the word "Stop" (0+ / 0-)

                          "Stopping" or "defeating" a rival political campaign in the primary, that is part of democracy and part of common campaign talk.  (And so is "squelching," "crushing," "stomping," and "decimating" Rethugnicans in the General Election! :-) ).  

                          If the word "stop" implies "fascism" to you, I think you are in a very small minority.  Here are some examples quickly gleaned from Google:

                          "We must stop the propaganda to which Palestinian children are exposed," [Hillary] Clinton said in a news conference in Washington, D.C.

                          "The hatred must be stopped," Reverend Jessie Jackson told the congregation of the Lilydale First Baptist Church.  

                          "The Space Shuttle Must Be Stopped," Time Magazine headline for article by Gregg Easterbrook.

                          None of these are creepy, are they?  

                          So far you've accused me of "opposing democracy," being "totally down with the [political] process," that "it's never occurred to [me] what [I'm] saying," that I'm "not interested in working within the system," that I'm doing "what totalitarians do," that I "have a problem with [Vilsack] using free speech," and -- finally -- that I'm using "fascistic language" (i.e. the word "stop"). None of these statements are accurate, fair, or insightful, and you've failed to back them up.  IMHO.  

                          "we have to do what we can to make sure someone else wins", "so and so would be a much better candidate"

                          What she said.  ;-)  

                          •  None of those are about elections. (0+ / 0-)

                            You aren't going to cute your way out of this. You used fascistic language and you got called on it.

                            Hillary doesn't need to be stopped. She's a candidate in an election and is the current frontrunner. If the majority of voting Democrats agree with you, she'll lose. If they don't, she'll win.

                            But you, of course, want her stopped. You don't want to give her the chance to win. You are anti-democracy.

                            The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                            by lorelynn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 09:15:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Yep, Godwin's law looms... (0+ / 0-)

                              You aren't going to cute your way out of this.

                              I'm starting to wonder if we speak the same language, even though we use the same words.

                              You used fascistic language

                              Really, you're not making sense.  Perhaps you could tell me what you mean by "fascism"?  (State authoritarianism supported by mass mobilization around a charismatic leader?)

                              She's a candidate in an election and is the current frontrunner [in polls]. If the majority of voting Democrats agree with you, she'll lose. If they don't, she'll win.

                              We agree on this.  (I've clarified "frontrunner" to mean by polls. Maybe in fund-raising, too, I don't know.)  

                              Hillary doesn't need to be stopped.

                              We disagree on this.  I've stated my reasons why above.  What are your reasons for supporting her above the other seven Democratic candidates?

                              But you, of course, want her stopped.

                              Yes, by democratic means, n'est-ce pas.

                              You don't want to give her the chance to win.

                              That's an ambiguous statement, so we need to be careful.  Of course she has the right to run, and we have the right to oppose her, that's what free-speech and democracy are all about.  So, she has the chance to win, and I (and others) would prefer that someone else wins.  We want to (democratically) stop her from winning, and allow someone else to win.  

                              You are anti-democracy.

                              That's a complete non sequitur. It doesn't follow from your preceding points.    

                              I think I addressed this word-choice above, so I'm just reposting it again here:
                              >>>
                              To you, the word "Stop" in a political context implies non-democratic, totalitarian control.  

                              You prefer the word "Defeat."  

                              To me, "Stop" in the context of my post of course implies using the democratic process, that's what this is all about, and is synonymous with "defeat."

                              Are we agreed so far?  
                              <<<</p>

                              This really seems like a non-issue.  Simply substitute the word "defeat" for "stop", if that's really what's bothering you.  If it's something else -- like, oh, say the fact that I prefer every other major Democratic candidate to Hillary and you don't -- then please jump in and explain why Hillary is your first choice.

          •  NADERITE ALERT! (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            0wn, PhillyGuy03

            Another Non-Democrat (someone who says they will not support the Demcratic nominee if it was one not to their choosing)who demands that Democrats see it her way.  (Using republican BS talking points doing it at the same time - how fun!) A person like you very possibly cant even VOTE in the democratic primaries...if you are registered as a green or an I...so personally, I dont give a F what you wish as to who OUR party selects.  You are the same kinda person who in 2000 said that Gore+Bush and now you say Hillary=Bush....why dont you just say your sorry for helping to elect Bush in the first place and leave our primaries alone...unless that is, you want to become a Democrat and support our eventual nominee, whoever WE choose...if youd like to do this welcome to the Democratic Big Tent Party.  If not...stop beating up on our folks!

            •  not true (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Sharon Wraight

              you all use this excuse whenever someone says they don't want hillary as president.   I've always voted for democrats except when i voted for the green party this year for the candidate who was running against Hillary for Senate.  

              We are tired of this same old song.  Tired.  Look how fucked up this country is.  And last week we get hillary saying she plans to keep troops in Iraq and all options are on the table with Iran.  

              You want more of that, fine.  I prefer democrats who are talking about NO PERMANENT BASES in Iraq.  I prefer democrats who didn't serve on the board of Wal Mart.  I prefer democrats talking about putting people before corporations.   Real Democrats.

              If Hillary wins the nomination I won't vote for a candidate for president.  I'm in NY so it won't matter who i vote for anyway due to our electoral system.   And then when the wars all continue on and the corporations continue to destory the middle class, I will say "I told so, what did you expect".  But there won't be much joy in that.  

              I think all you hillary fans need to understand a large amount of democrats feel this way.   There just aren't that many naderites out there.

              •  ROFL. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                PhillyGuy03

                I prefer democrats talking about putting people before corporations.

                Edwards did that during his Senate career and Hillary didn't?  Prove it.  You'll find out that you're wrong.  Edwards and Obama are not more progressive than Hillary.  Their Senate records pretty much acknowledge that fact.

                "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:55:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  own (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  I've had hillary as my Senator here now for a while.  Did you know that Republican corporations that had never given money to a Democratic candidate in over 100 years, like Corning Inc, decided to donate heavily to Hillary for the 2006 campaign?   Maybe they all of a sudden became "progressive"?  

                  I may find out I'm wrong about Edwards and Obama at some point.  I'm not worried about being surprised by Hillary.  

                  I'm betting some voters will be before this is all over.

                  •  Umm... (0+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    PhillyGuy03

                    What does that have to do with anything?  You said that Hillary was corporate friendly.  Do you want to look at how many corporations donated to Kerry/Edwards in '04?   How about Edwards senate race?  Donating means nothing, it's how the candidates react to those donations that means something.  You can't claim that someone is corporate friendly just because a few corporations donate to them.

                    "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                    by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:07:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ok (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      you've convinced me.  She was on the board of walmart because of her progessive views.  

                      •  Wow. (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        onemadson

                        Could your comment be anymore irrelevant?

                        "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

                        by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:46:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Wow back atcha :-) (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          onemadson

                          Truth be told, I had not known (or had forgotten) that Hillary was on the board of Wal-Mart.  Thank you, onemadson.  

                          Could your comment be anymore irrelevant?

                          I'm not sure how to reply to this.  In fact, hardly anything could be more relevant to my post than this fact.  I suppose if Hillary were currently serving on the board of ExxonMobil.  But, really.  Wal-Mart?!?!  The most-regressive employer in the US, destroyer of communities of small-business, usurper of state-funded health-programs, purchaser of irresponsibly-produced goods, out-sourcer of jobs overseas, 90% donor to Rethugnicans, etc?

                          Donating means nothing, it's how the candidates react to those donations that means something.

                          I respectfully disagree.  Once you have reached out for a campaign contribution, negotiated the terms (it's a dance, not explicit, mainly unspoken signalling), and received the money, then no human-being I have met is not influenced by this process. Unconsciously, you will feel you owe them something. It's just human nature. And you will then find yourself defending them, if someone attacks them (or attacks you for taking their money).

                          In fact, PhRMA lobbyists will deliberately try to give money to bona fide progressive candidates, because they know that once the candidate accepts the money, they have been "bought" and can no longer rail against "nasty PhRMA lobby" without looking hypocritical.  Clever, eh what?

                          •  phrma lobbyists (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Sharon Wraight

                            might want to check into them and hillary and how her positions on universal healthcare have changed.

                            Of course you will find nothing. Of course.

                            Just ask her lifelong friend joe lieberman about the pharmaceutical industry.  They spend SOOO much on research they just have to charge so much for the pills.  Its only fair.  

                  •  Corning, Inc? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    PhillyGuy03

                    You sure?  According to Open Secrets, in 2006 Corning, Inc. PAC gave to $10,500 to 7 Democratic Senate Candidates, and $38,000 to 10 Republican Senate Candidates, none of whom was named Hillary Clinton.

                    "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

                    by LiberalVirginian on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:09:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  corning's owners (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      link  

                      In May 2004, Clinton attended a fund-raiser in Corning. It was a typical affair: About 80 people gathered at a private home for cocktails and mingling. Yet this particular evening was hosted by Jamie Houghton, chairman of one of the region's largest employers, Corning Inc., and brother of the former Republican representative. "When I introduced Hillary, I told the crowd that the last time a Houghton had a fund-raiser for a Democrat was about 1812," he said. Why the sudden détente? Well, Clinton was integral in passing clean diesel legislation that requires vehicles to be fitted with pollutant-trapping catalytic converters. And it was Corning that invented the ceramic substrates used in those converters.

                      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                        Well, Clinton was integral in passing clean diesel legislation that requires vehicles to be fitted with pollutant-trapping catalytic converters. And it was Corning that invented the ceramic substrates used in those converters.

                        Passing sensible environmental legislation that helped an American manufacturer?  

                        What a corporate stooge.

                        "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

                        by LiberalVirginian on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:22:05 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  look no one is pure (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    PhillyGuy03

                    in politics.  Ive worked in lefty politics all my life and thats why this screaming against Hillary upsets me so.  I KNOW she is a good and fine person.  I dont think this, I personally know it.  There have been issues that I have disagreed with she and/ the President on in the past but, this doesnt change this...if you looked at who was giving $ to all the candidates it would disturb your pretty picture (ie Edwards - Tommy Boggs and the trial lawyers - the very ones who shot down the natl heath care plan in 94...or hows about Nader taking MILLions from Roger Miliken who is one of the most anti union corporate slave drivers the textile industry has ever known, Obama and Penny Pritzger and the Hyatt zillions....puleeze!) Money goes to power...thats the way.  If you think Hillary is backing anything for Corning because of any other reason that a hunt for upstate NY jobs...you think that she can be moved by a wee five thousand bucks...her campaign is raising like a hundred times that a DAY....youre either very naive or very block headed, I cant figure which...(actually, I can...youre the first....I know and like your passion, its just I KNOW how dangerous this kind of rationing of the blame works out...2000 was my alamo, Ill never forget.

                    •  i'm well (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      aware of how things work and that anyone who wins is going to be mostly owned by corporate sponsors.    

                      I'm not naive.  I'm fed up.  Hillary will continue the support for the wars.  That is what i'm fed up with.  She gives me no indication that she won't.   I won't vote for a candidate who is intent on keeping permanent bases in iraq.  I have my litmus test.  We all need to live with ourselves.  

                      I can have a choice between a candidate who says she won't apologize for her vote for the war and a candidate who took a very unpopular position in 2004 and called it a dumb war and outlined how it would go badly.  

                      I have choices for candidates who are saying things that i strongly agree with and they are democrats.  Why would i want a candidate who every time she opens her mouth i cringe.  If she can't say homosexuality isn't immoral, etc.   Why would i choose that?   I've been listening to hillary for the last 6 years.   I really want to like her.  I don't.

                      You say she is a very good person.  I'd like to see some evidence of that in her public persona.  A lot more evidence.   Until then, I'm going to make other choices.  

                      •  lordie (0+ / 0-)

                        "I'm not naive.  I'm fed up.  Hillary will continue the support for the wars.  That is what i'm fed up with.  She gives me no indication that she won't".....

                        Yes she has.....

                        She voted (it was recorded and everything in the congressional record so you can look it up) last year for the bill to withdraw our troops.  She has said that WHEN she is elected President she will END THE WAR.  We do not have the votes to stop Bush.  As many people who want to can scream and holler about this and deman that funding is cut and whatever....but we don not have the 2/3ds to overturn the veto.  The war will go on to the end of this administration.  You say she will continue the war - she has said that she will END THE WAR when she is President.  You dont believe her...fine.  Dont support her....but dont pretend that she has not been very CLEAR with what she says will do as President.  She says she will End it.

                        •  tim (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight

                          she has said she will end the war.  She also has said she will keep troops their for a strategic interests and to minimize the threat of iran.  

                          I don't consider that ending the war.  Is it better than what we have now?  yes.   Can we do better? Yes.  

                          I understand her saying she will end the war is enough for you.  Perhaps you feel having permanent bases and tens of thousands of troops in iraq as ending the war.  I consider that an occupation.  I personally think that it will make us less safe and cost us more troops and more iraqi civilian deaths.  Those are things i'm not willing to support.  

                          If you think Hillary Clinton has been clear about what she will do as president...that is telling.

                          I can see why the hillary supporters here are so adamant and belittle my positions.  I understand if you agree with her positions.  What i think you are going to come to find it that you can call people like me Naderites and wacko leftist all you want but you are going to find 1) you are very wrong on that front and 2)  There are a whole lot of DEMOCRATS who think just like me.   So you've got a candidate who is absolutely hated by Republicans.  Fine, that is to be expected.  But she is also extremely unpopular with a big chunk of Democrats.  Please keep writing us off as Naderites.  All the way to the primaries.    Keep belitting my positions.  Keep making your arguments about why i'm wrong.   Keep making snarky comments to each other about how all these diaries are being put up by Republicans.  

                          Perhaps we are naive about different things.  

                          •  there are very, very few democrats (0+ / 0-)

                            who think like you....that you wont support Hillary if she is the nominee....Im sure there are more dem leaning independent "progresives" like yourself, but personally I dont really care what your plans are - I dont care if you vote for Nader - or the man in the moon - I just want you to stop PRETENDING that you are DEMOCRATS and I want to tell you that real Democrats (like myself) will not be bullied by your threats to go home, stay home or whatever.  (After what Nader did in 2000 - folks who believe like you - those who threaten to vote Green in the Presidential or whatever - are truly marginalized, number wise, nationally - sorry, tis a mathematical electoral fact)  You cannot be convinced or persuaded, youre too brilliant and "pure" to sully yourself by supporting someone who the majority of our party, us loser dupes,  actually likes....I never said folks like you are Republicans.  Ive been clear - you are an INDEPENDENT....or maybe a Green or whatever, but you sure are not a Democrat.  Democrats skirmish amongst themselves, yes, but they do not attack their leaders with the same attack scripts that the GOP uses and Democrats dont say they wont support the candidate that the party decides - by a very expensive and complicated process - just who its nominee wont be.  You cant have it both ways, thats how the Party system works.  If you dont agree with the Party, you are by definition an Independent.  Jeeze.  Stop pretending you dont understand this.

              •  I keep repeating it because you dont seem to get (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Caldonia

                it.

                If you do not support who the Democratic nominee is ....pay attention, ok...YOU ARE NOT A DEMOCRAT.  Ok?  Its just that simple.  You could be a green or an independent...a supporter of the natural life party for all I care...but you are not a Democrat and WE ALL need to understand this , (WE Democrats that is), just how Dangerous people like you are to OUR chances of winning back the White House.  Im sorry that after 6 years of Bush that you dont understand  that those who said in 2000, that Bush=Gore....DIRECTLY put Bush into the White House.  If you dont understand that and...you do not suggest that you will support oup party's eventual nominee (thats how the Party system works)...I dont give a damn about what YOU think WE Democrats should do in OUR primary system.  You do understand what the party system is dont you?  If you dont wanna be a Dem, dont, we'll struggle on without ya.

                •  i know (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  what your position is. And i cursed all the people who voted for Nader.  

                  And I've always voted democratic.  If the majority of the democrats choose to support hillary I will have some thinking to do.   I worked my ass off and have given $5-$10 grand to democratic candidates over the last two cycles.   Taking back congress has certainly been a plus.  

                  I don't trust hillary and i don't know how anyone could.   When she takes money from Rupert Murdoch doesn't that make you suspicious?  Don't you think that the joke may be on people like you?  Who has done more to badmouth the clinton's that Murdoch's papers and channels?  No one.  And yet there he is offering money and there she is taking it.  I know you think she is just outsmarting him and once in office she will be a shining progressive.  Probably why she was on the board of walmart too.   And why she will keep permanent bases in Iraq, etc.

                  And like i said, due to our electoral system, my vote for president has always been meaningless.  Although it looks like i might get to vote in a primary that might matter this year.  I'll certainly be voting in that one as a registered Democrat.  If she wins i wont' vote for her in the general and i won't feel guilty since my vote doesn't matter in NY

                  •  I don't trust hillary and i don't know how anyone (0+ / 0-)

                    could.

                    sigh.  well, I know her and I trust her.  if you think that she has one drop of fox lovin' blood, your ability to read people's souls needs ajusting.  He is giving cause he knows shes gonna win, shes taking it cause...she can and its gotta feel good...  (Dont forget she basically founded media matters which is the one place fighting media lies besides the incomparable daily howler) ...when she was on wal marts board - she was the 1st lady of the state that company was founded and based in.  In the late 80s and early 90s the anti wal mart movement had not started - or even been noticed to be needed - and she was there as a jobs issue thingee for the state...since then she has been quite hard on Wal Mart...amazingly tough it seems to me....as to Iraq, she has not said she supports "bases" , she said we'll probally need troops around to keep the place as best we can from entering into a slaughter, but she has called for a recall of all standing armies...and I hazard to suggest that a huge majority of Democrats will support both those policies.  This one does.

                    •  plenty do (0+ / 0-)

                      if she represents you best, great.   She doesn't represent me.  We differ on enough that i can't vote for her with a good conscience.  perhaps in the next year I will change my mind.  

                      if you actually know hillary and you trust her perhaps you should try to break through the bubble and start telling her to talk and act like a person who is a leader and who can answer a question.  Simple questions.  No answers.  You'd be doing her a favor.

                      I don't know her except from what i've seen over the last 20 years or so.  I liked her until she became my senator.  I felt sorry for her.  Its been all downhill from there.  

                      •  sorry, (0+ / 0-)

                        but Politicians...ALL of them are scripted...OK.  All of them at the high level have to be.  Theres no place for ad libbing when the press and the GOP (and others ) are looking for gotcha moments and points to score sorry.  Its like the totally BS demand that she "apologize and retract" her vote.  That is only demanded to score points against her, you either know this and are pretending...or have convinced yourself that it is a moral necesitty, cause it sure aint hard seeing through that canard.  If you want to know how Hillary feels about the war, just go see the transcript of her aug 04 Meet the Press appearance, her statement about it has not changed since then.  If you dont know what she said then, (it wasnt a minor appearance) well, you dont really know what youre talking about do you? Maybe you shouldnt be so judgmental if you dont actually understand her positions, dont you think?

                        Its more than fine for you to support whatever candidate that you wish, but when you attack our candidates with false, scripted BS, when you say that you wont support a certain candidate if they are our nominee, I say you are not truly a Democrat.  Very simple. I will support any of them, whomever the millions who vote in our party's primaries decides, any real Democrat would.

                        •  you like the script (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight

                          you like her positions.  Great.

                          So politicians can be scripted but i can't?  That is funny.

                          None of my attacks are scripted, my friend.  it based on my personal experience with the Senator and what i've read.  

                          As i've noted earlier, you hillary defenders can call people like me Republicans and Naderites but you are being very naive.  However, if the truth about Hillary is so great, i'm sure you'll be able to get it out to all of us with all the money.

                          so, get to work.  Educate us on the truth.  If the attacks are all just scripted, get the script and provide detailed rebuttals.  You've got plenty of time and money.  

            •  Nice try, but "not." (0+ / 0-)

              As a Gore supporter, I strongly opposed Nader's candidacy in both 2000 and 2004. I convinced many people not to support Nader. (I do respect Nader's consumer advocacy throughout the 1960s-80s.  He just got an inflated ego and didn't know when to stop.  Kinda sad to see, but we all have an Achilles' heel.)  

              I'm making an argument, not demanding anything.  

              The only election that counts is the Primary.  That's true of any contested-Primary. The General election is an entirely different story, the political-field will then be written anew, and we can discuss it then. Politics is dynamic, it is never static.

              A person like you

              Not to personalize this or anything.

              I'm a card-carrying Democrat. Open primary.

              You are the same kinda person who in 2000 said that Gore=Bush and now you say Hillary=Bush

              No, this is a straw-person argument that I have not said, and never believed. In fact, as a Gore supporter I strongly argued against this. The Supreme Court was the biggest argument pre-9/11.  Since then, I weep at thinking how different the world would be had Gore won.  

              leave our primaries alone...unless that is, you want to become a Democrat and support our eventual nominee, whoever WE choose...

              Nice attempt at in-group/out-group exclusion. Except that my Democrats won in 2006, for many of the reasons stated in my diary, and I am still so happy about that!!! :-)))  

              •  If you say you won't support the Party's nominee (0+ / 0-)

                its not the Party that has left you - its you that have left the Party.  Thats how it works.  Majority or plurality rule.  It may not be how you want it to be...but its the way the Democratic party chooses it to be.  (I pledge to support whomever my Party chooses as its nominee - see how that works?  I did it - why cant you?) I am sick of you INDEPENDENTS telling me and my party how and who to support...and I am sick of you INDEPENDENTS threatening to bolt from OUR Party if we dont do as you wish.  

                Then bolt, take your holier than thou attitude and run away from the fight.  This mentality (whether you contributed to it or not) cost us the election in 2000 and...yo know what ?  I dont wanna make nice about it...and so...if the Democratics around the Country choose Hillary and you refuse to support OUR nominee - fine -just turn in your Democratic Party card on your way out...and we'll do your fighting for ya.

                •  sick of independents (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  i didn't realize when i registered as a democrat i pledged to vote for the nominee.

                  My goal is to get people elected who represent me best.  Those have traditionally been democrats.  If the majority of democrats pick someone I don't agree with that shouldn't mean i have to vote for that person or leave the party.  Perhaps i missed something when i registered.

                  Should we kick out everyone from the party who was a democrat but supported Joe Lieberman's independent run?   Want to check on how many people gave to Lieberman but also give to Hillary?  If you will kick all those people out of the party then i'll happily go with them.  Overall it would vastly improve the current democratic party.

                  •  well has there ever been anyone at this site (0+ / 0-)

                    that doesnt say expressly that (about those who supported Joe)?  And yes, if you dont support the party's nominee - you dont support the party - Do you think that Bill and Hill wanted to support someone who beat their lifelong friend? (joe)...but when he lost the primary, they came out against him....maybe not as strong as some wish, but they supported OUR party's nominee.  If you cant or wont do this, no, you are not a Democrat, you are an Independant.

                    •  well (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      your wish is your command.  it will be a whole lot cheaper for me to be unwelcome in hillary's party.

                      Perhaps you might understand my position a bit better if you lived in a democratic machine town.  Where the Democratic mayor has endorsed the last Republican Governor (pataki) and raised money for the conservative Republican Congressman (Sweeney).  Oh yeah, did i mention he also is a huge Hillary fan and she endorsed his last run for mayor.  

                      If he agrees to leave the democratic party than I'll go with him.   It would improve the party.

                      If Lieberman is your lifelong friend i wonder what you think about his new friends.  You know, the republicans that funded his campaign.  Or, I should say, his old friends.  

                      Lieberman said he was for withdrawl when he was running.  Got elected and changed his tune.  i wonder what his lifelong friend hillary is willing to say to get elected.  I'm sure joe told her it worked.

                       

                      •  it aint complicated (0+ / 0-)

                        a democrat, by definition, supports the party's nominee for president...if you dont, youre not a democrat, your a democrat leaning independent - in most states that means you cant vote in the primary...if youre bein honest about all this...

                        •  reallly (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight

                          so this only applies to presidential elections?

                          So when my "Democratic" mayor endorses Republicans over Democrats, raises money for Republicans and Refuses to support or endorse the last two high profile Democrats who won their primaries in our area...that is ok and Hillary can stop by and endorse him and we all can think that is fine...but if i choose not to support Hillary i have to leave the party.  

                          interesting, your definition.   When Hillary stops endorsing my Republican friendly mayor, maybe I'll consider your thoughts on the matter.  

                          Also, we should have some standards.  Rupert Murdoch actively lobbied for the iraq war because he said it would be good for the world economy.   A good person, by definition, wouldn't take his money.  

                          but that is my definition.

                        •  20% of Democrats would not vote for Hillary (new) (0+ / 0-)

                          New poll by Harris.  So, Tim Howe, are you proposing a mass-purge of more than one in five Democratic voters?  

                          http://thehill.com/...

                          Fifty percent of adults would not vote for Clinton
                          By Kelly McCormack
                          March 27, 2007

                          Half of voting-age Americans say they would not vote for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) if she became the Democratic nominee for president in 2008, according to a Harris Interactive poll released Tuesday.

                          More than one in five Democrats that participated in the survey said they would not vote for Clinton. Overall, 36 percent say they would vote for the former first lady and 11 percent are unsure of their top choice.

                          Forty-eight percent of Independent voters also said that they would choose another candidate over Clinton, the poll, which surveyed 2,223 potential voters, states.

                          Fifty-six percent of men said that they would not vote for Clinton, while 45 percent of women said that she would not be their pick. In addition, 69 percent of those 62 and older said that they would not vote for Clinton.

                          Nearly half of the respondents said that they dislike Clinton’s political opinions and Clinton as a person. Fifty-two percent of people also said that "she does not appear to connect with people on a personal level."

  •  I'm afraid the Hillary Express is un$toppable, (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    onemadson

    big donors keep $hoveling in coal, and she's gaining $team.

    Her nomination will in$ure HUGE infu$ions of ca$h for Republicans, too.

  •  I got the same Email (5+ / 0-)

    I deleted after scanning the first paragraph.

    Anyone who dislikes Clinton as much as you do, and is as smart as you obviously are, I would think they would take themselves off the distro list for Clinton Supporters.

    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:28:15 PM PDT

  •  She doesnn't care about the Democrats (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theark, Pazuzu

    or she would not have put herself in the race.  Many citizens in the Democratic Party are saying nooooooo to Hillary and she is bound to know that.  So she is already ignoring the citizens.

    ...do the elites...actually believe that society can be destroyed by anyone except those who lead them? - John Ralston Saul -

    by Silverbird on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:29:01 PM PDT

    •  Every candidate who doesn't listen (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jxg, Caldonia, lorelynn

      to the people who won't vote for them and take themselves out of the race.  They are ignoring the citizens.

      I think I'm actually impressed with that logic.  But maybe it's cause I just saw "Thank You for Smoking," and whatever one thinks of Lobbyists you had to admire his ability to win an argument.

      "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

      by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:31:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Absurd on it's face. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jxg, Caldonia, lorelynn

      Care to tell us who has the lead in the contest right now and how your comment holds up under the weight of that fact?

    •  Umm.. (0+ / 0-)

      You would have to make that arguement about Edwards or Obama.  It's impossible to make it against Hillary Clinton.  Look how many dems are saying "nooooo" to Edwards and Obama.  They are saying "yesssssss" to Hillary Clinton.

      "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

      by 0wn on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:39:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hillary is in it for Hillary (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Silverbird, Pazuzu, Sharon Wraight

      She's in it to win.  Is she in it for the country?  Is she in it to help people?  Maybe she thinks so, but overriding all of that is that she is in it to win.