Meta and Deep Meta

    This diary explores the profound distinction of two areas of focus in what has been lumped together as "meta" here at DailyKos.  There are great benefits in understanding the differences between these two fields of thought.   A cooling of some of the flame wars,  a gathering place and symbol for like minded deep meta ecologists,  and a truth in labeling clarity for everyone,  pragmatists and generalists alike.
    So what the heck are you talking about, you ask?  More below the fabled fold...    
                                                                                                               
   

    My interest in this subject has been ongoing since I've been here at DailyKos,  but was really sharpened by reading another fine diary by eOz in the excellent Countdown To No Confidence series.   How can more attention be brought to the issues raised there?   I thought we really have two types of meta here; what I'd call a DailyKos process meta and a deep meta.   So what is deep meta?  I'm referring to those fields of thought, feeling, and intuition that look at the more abstract, subtle, and unifying aspects of our existence.  Deep meta is philosophical,  reflective,  "softer",  integrative,  inspirational,  loving,  etc.  But deep meta can be shy and seem obscure in the rough and tumble world of politics.   And it can be verbose,  as many know!   Having it's own tag of recognition will facilitate the very important function of integration that it offers,  while steering away those who could care less or have another focus.   And so with this in mind,  I searched for the latest "meta" diaries and let's see what we find to flesh out the discussion.
    Now the first two diaries that I came across only mentioned meta in passing,  no reason to tag "meta",  particularly.   The third is a powerful example by Erevann of what I'm calling deep meta.

The ultimate idea behind my little dissertation here is that when we find ourselves in a moment of conflict with another, it is imperative upon those involved and all too often a neglected responsibility, to maintain a level of both impartiality and empathy towards our opponents. I would apply this principle to our every interaction concerning our issue advocating, debates both within the community and without, and in our greater, more shared efforts in the larger political sphere, if we truly wish to have a lasting effect upon the nature of our shared community here and on the national political stage.

But by not being tagged with a universally recognized tag it can be forgotten or hard to find.
    The next,  by RenaRF,  is clearly DailyKos process meta.   Next we have more process meta,  this one by redlami.  Another non-meta post.   More process meta,  this one by Jerome a Paris,  that also touches upon deep meta.  Which brings up the point here that regular ole dKos meta blends just fine with deep meta.  One person's deep meta might be another's plain ole meta.  "We are working on many levels here."  Here's some good deep meta by teacherken.

The meta challenge is this - how does each of us act to ensure that when the one who is different, who perhaps is irritating or annoying, who does not belong, speaks the words that would benefit us, that we will hear?  How can we ensure that we are capable of listening, even if it be an uncomfortable truth?

 Some more not really meta diaries.  Some more process meta.   And so on.   Most "meta" diaries are about (meta=about)  the processes of DailyKos itself.  But a few meta diaries deal with broader issues of community, unity, meta-framing, etc.  The point being that diaries focusing more on the processes of consciousness itself deserve to be identified as deep meta for the edification of all.
    So if you think your meta diary covers more than the pie and flame wars here at dKos;  if you see tides in the public mind shifting  subtly,  but importantly;  if a more inclusive vision of unity and wholeness takes hold of you;  if concern that your complex vision will get lost in the breakneck speed of diary turnover:  then add the tag "deep meta" to your diary.  This will give a lifeline to your insights and allow the other deep meta folks to find you.
    So two proposals:

1. Adding the tag "deep meta" to your broad, esoteric diary. You probably know the Ones.

2. A regular,  ongoing series,  hosted by yours truly,   entitled  "Deep Meta Review"  that will gather the not so rabid lonely lambs of the deep meta world to frolic in the fields of esoteric unity.

    Deep meta is not for everyone.  If that means you,  then please pass over the deep meta tag and pursue your own interests.   But for the few, (apparently), of us who relish diving deeply into the meta waters,  let’s gather together and explore the vast realms before us.  More than anything,  politics is about a change of mind,  in people individually, and collectively.  And this is what deep meta addresses most essentially.  So dive in,  the deep meta is fine!

•  Tip Jar for the Virgin!

      Please be kind, but all comments are welcome!

  by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:43:40 PM PDT

•  Philosophy/ethics versus policies/procedures

  Kinda like how business life nowadays is full of "vision statements" but you still need an HR policy on taking vacation days.

  by lgmcp on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:47:59 PM PDT

  •  How come business has vision statements, but...

    many politicos can't make the same?!

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:51:15 PM PDT

    •  They do...

      their called bullshit they forget, once they get bogged down in process. :)

      -Christina Baldwin

      by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:05:02 PM PDT

•  About?

  Or Deep About?

  Besides, how would you classify Welcome New Users?

  It's deeper than you think.

  by ek hornbeck on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:53:16 PM PDT

  •  Now that's some deep meta! n/t

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:57:42 PM PDT

  •  and thicker n/t

    by le sequoit on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:16:51 PM PDT

    •  And heavier.

      I aim to put the metal back in meta.

      by ek hornbeck on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:37:14 PM PDT

  •  Yeah ek...

    I'm up to my eyeballs in it...

    ohhhhh squishy!! :)

    -Christina Baldwin

    by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:45:27 PM PDT

•  Deep Meta already has a tag.....

  it's called poetry.

  Our universal quest for meaning, community, security and love seeks expression in every venue; from conversations around the primordial camp fire to our current cyberspace.

  I fear that legitimizing this subject for this blog, as an actual category with its own tag, will take us too far afield from the political, specifically progressive, orientation defined by the founder.

  But it is always a subtext of every diary and every comment.  And in my opinion that's how it should remain.

  by arodb on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 02:57:21 PM PDT

  •  I wish it were a subtext for everything as you...

    say.  My reality sense is that that is not quite the case.  There is a very common sense that what we're talking about (poetry or deep meta) is somehow not practical.  Your comment about taking us "too far afield" speaks to this false idea.  Having a tiny little corner that won't get in the way of the main focus here at DailyKos should not be a problem,  me thinks.  I will speak more about the very real and in fact essential nature of deep meta in further diaries.  But point well taken,  we have a job to do here that I fully support.

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:09:32 PM PDT

  •  As long as those of us...

    who are actively aware of it, look for it, and are intrigued by it, are careful to be clear about it's reverberations out into the wider sphere of what we're doing here, I can't see how it would detract, in fact I would see it as bringing things further into focus.

    That subtext is important, and many of us float about mostly unaware of it. Express it unintentionally, and influence the currents all through the massive discourse here.

    Honestly, I can't help but use the ocean and it's processes as a metaphor (pun not entirely intended there!). I've watched this site for years now, and it's incredible how similar it is in some ways. Add to that the metaphor of weather, and it's almost a complete analogy.

    But there is a distinct difference, between this concept of "deep meta" and it being distinguised from "process meta". Both are useful, but the former focuses on the interpersonal and communal interplay, which if observed and analyzed, could be of great use to us all, I think.

    Basically, just because the subtext is there, and some of us pay attention, doesn't mean it's not worth studying and discussing. It has it's uses and it does effect the larger picture. Again, I think.

    Take it as you will. :)

    Then there's the fact that I consistently end up writing comments that in all likelyhood, could end up diaries unto themselves if I were to let myself go on, as is my habit. hehe

    -Christina Baldwin

    by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:57:11 PM PDT

    •  I have what might be a deep meta diary

      that I never chose to submit.  It goes like this:

      Dailykos: Masked Transparency

      When I first registered for Dailykos eight months ago I posted the address of my email  and personal blog.  A few times this blog bailed me out when I was on the "wrong" side of some touchy subjects.  People who accused me of being a troll, or a shill, or roving conservative bigot, got to know me better, and backed off.

      Recently I went anonymous by deleting my email and my blog.  And I feel bad about it.  This brings us to the paradox of this site.  Every diary we write and every comment we make about subjects ranging from private personal experience to religious beliefs to political philosophy are all accessible to anyone.  Everything is on display--- except, for most of us, who we really are.

      This Masked Transparency has been examined in the phenomenon of flaming, where the anonymity of user names eliminates the adverse consequences of abusive interchanges.  But it also has another, almost  opposite, effect.  Getting a thoughtful intelligent comment can bring a sense of connecting with a friend, of finding a long lost soul mate, bringing forth your own sincere and candid response.  There is an illusion of a private conversation; yet the words are out there in the public domain.

      Unlike my personal blog that I can edit or remove at will, once something is expressed on this site it is indelible.  As I looked back on my collection of diaries and comments, I can remember how I was feeling as I wrote them.  I knew whether I was in a good mood, confident to be among bright, fair minded friends; or whether I was angry at the obtuseness and viciousness of the whole world; and expressing this in my words.  That's why I pulled my personal information.  There was too much out there, and I was now vulnerable.  There were too many dots, to be connected by anyone who wanted to form any picture they chose.

      The Masked Transparency of Dailykos is built into the structure of most similar blogs, with differing effects determined by the makeup of the membership.  I have  written several diaries and numerous comments opposing what I perceive as excesses of calumny directed against Joe Lieberman.  They do not criticize the many articulate  impassioned and cogent criticisms of his political actions that appear here, rather, what I perceive to be the excesses.  I recently saw another diary with the same tone of seething obscene calumny towards Ralph Nader.

      Clarence Thomas mis-characterized the hearing on his confirmation as a "high tech lynching."   While that respectful public inquiry into his suitability for the Supreme Court was the antithesis of this characterization, at times a barrage of comments about Joe Lieberman, and a select few others, spiral downward.  One epithet elicits a stronger one, until the aggregate message takes on a special quality. Rather than sizzling sharp political analysis, the hallmark of Dailykos, we have something that for a few brief moments brings back the smell and aura of a dark night of masked rage against a despised person.  And like the culture of the deep dark South of that era, the few did the deed, while the rest acceded by remaining silent.

      But masks have many effects.  There was the virtual mask warn by Mark Felt, the "deep throat" who helped bring down a corrupt President.  There is the mask of my childhood fictional hero, The Lone Ranger, who was freed to do random acts of pure good and then go on with his private life (whatever that may have been.)  And most relevantly, there is the mask of anonymity that allows us to take chances on this site, to explore unpopular, or incompletely formed ideas in public, that although  criticized or even condemned, may elicit occasional responses that expand and challenge the writer and the community.

      I have no summarization for this diary.  I leave that to those who care to comment on it.

      Is this what you meant as deep meta, or merely meta.

      by arodb on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:37:52 PM PDT

      •  I think you got it...

        right on the money my friend. And it certainly does have the poetic component well done too!

        You should post that for sure! Loved it! (and would love the opportunity to discuss the thesis of it further with ya! Without hijacking this particular diary, per se.)

        I tend to think, the prose/poetry of these sorts of diaries isn't so much an intentional thing, as much as a by-product of trying to distinctly articulate the complexities of the subject you address.

        Basically, there's using language like a baseball bat, which is very useful sometimes. Then there's trying to use it like a scalpel, to be precise and say, exactly what it is you mean.

        Most of the time though, I think we all tend to use language pretty much like a pen, a balance between power and precision.

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:52:34 PM PDT

      •  Definitely some very good deep meta thoughts.

            That also speak to this new found world we're co-creating.  There are a lot of concerns of people that just don't quite seem to fit here or there.  On the other hand it's not about airie fairy stuff either.  Profound issues of framing are involved.  What brought this up was the sense that eOs's superb pieces (link in main diary) would be aided by delving into this topic.  I'll keep up on this for a while and let's see if it becomes a place for folks.

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:54:55 PM PDT

•  Sometines a deep meta is just what

  some are looking for.  I like deep, but somedays I am in too much shock(from the illeagal course of georgie)to read them. Depends on my frame of mind.

  by Owllwoman on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:10:36 PM PDT

  •  It's hard, sometimes, to be open and receptive...

    with all that goes on.  That's why a periodic review, a la diary rescue,  will bring the deep meta diaries together for assimilation at a quieter time.

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:15:16 PM PDT

•  "frolic in the fields of esoteric unity"

  hmm

  I thought to myself what could that mean
  Am I going crazy or is this just a dream
  Now, wait a minute
  I know I'm lying in a field of grass somewhere
  so it's all in my head
  and then.. I heard her say one more time:

  Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl
  Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

  by le sequoit on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:12:34 PM PDT

•  You can't spell M-E-T-A

  Without T-E-A-M

  Or was that M-E-A-T?

  Well, there' certainly no I in META.

  by Aeolus on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:13:25 PM PDT

  •  Great! Team players and meat eaters together. n/t

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:17:25 PM PDT

    •  But they're blind

      No I's.

      by Aeolus on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:18:17 PM PDT

      •  Yes, we can never forget our I(s) n/t

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:20:02 PM PDT

      •  Interesting, there is no I in eyes. n/t

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:21:29 PM PDT

        •  We'll cure your fascination with Meta

          And have you doing silly walks in no time.

          Don't forget that in the dictionary Meta comes between abplanalp and zygote.

          by Aeolus on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:27:47 PM PDT

          •  You a staffer at the ministry...

            of silly walks eh?

            :)

            A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men!

            God I loved Willy Wonka. hehe

            -Christina Baldwin

            by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:00:45 PM PDT

•  I'm content to experience it

  without talking about it. You go right on ahead, though.

  by Prof Haley on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:43:00 PM PDT

  •  I'm also content to experience, but....

    excited to network such a potent source.

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:51:29 PM PDT

  •  Hear ya there...

    if I started talking about it every time I experienced it, I'd never shut up around here. :)

    Best to save it up, and relish the juicy bits!

    Fantastic sigline btw!

    -Christina Baldwin

    by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:02:41 PM PDT

    •  Interesting diary, kafkananda!

      It's funny, but about three years ago, in a moment of clarity, I think I intuited the future of DKos.  I was drafting a diary that expressed deep misgivings about what the Scoop system was doing to the interactions here, and also pleaded for a method of retrieving diaries by subject.

      The overwhelming sense of discouraging meta-ness I experienced caused me to trash that diary, and withdraw from all diary writing and almost all commenting.

      I've been proven mostly right, I think, in my misgivings - as a review of most of the meta-diaries (and the meta-hijackings within non-meta diaries) reveals. The divides that have been birthed and continue to harden here are exacerabted by the distorting effects of the ratings system and mojo.

      Erevann, I have noticed your attempts to defuse vitriol-laden diaries by injecting what kafkananda aptly terms deep meta into them. I hope you will keep trying.

      Meta wears me out.  Deep meta provides some hope. It's more, I think, than just a kind of diary.  It's a way of perceiving and interacting with the site.  With persistent applications (kinda like the technique of non-violent resistance...?), I dream of the day when juvenile diary infighting can be halted by the appearance of a deep-meta-master..  :^)

      (Actually, the site has one already in the person of Meteor Blades.  But I rarely see him in diaries anymore)

      Well, I'm one for two - at least we got Diary Tags!

      Peace.

      by OkieByAccident on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 08:00:17 PM PDT

      •  Thanks for your perceptive comments.

            From the few comments by Meteor Blades that I've seen, I agree with you.  It will probably take a few more diaries for the word to "get around".  The journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step.

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 08:54:00 PM PDT

        •  One of my favorite...

          taoist "proverbs" for lack of a better term coming to mind for it.

          -Christina Baldwin

          by Erevann on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 02:06:55 PM PDT

      •  I intend to keep trying to play peacemaker...

        it's just my nature, or so my mother keeps telling me! :) I've had some good luck, I've had some hopeless cases. Even ended up talking to a few folks that've gotten TR'd off the site and found them to have not entirely deserved it.

        One of the concerns I have, especially after the Nov elections, is that with the increased exposure of DKos in the media and the leverage we've gained collectively, new people have appeared.

        Some of those, are people previously from the other side of the aisle who've become fed up with their orgs. They come here, with the memes and process of those other communities, looking for some other option, and in interacting here, those old habits end up getting them flamed by the more "purity" minded around here.

        We then have the unfortunate circumstance, of losing what might have been a number of new allies with a firm understanding of the right. All it would take is a bit of tolerance, patience, and understanding of where THEY are coming from and tutoring them in the workings of the left and the Democratic community.

        Not saying it's easy, just that it's in our interests to do so. It makes me sad to see that sort of thing happening, simply because a few people seem to think it's their job to enforce some sort of ideological purity. Not to mention that sort of think reinforcing some of the more heinous perceptions of the right, concerning the elitism of the "liberals".

        We've got our own dogmatists here on the left, bless their souls. Just as there are on the right. Both of whom honestly have a difficult time seeing it any other way. Way of the world I'm afraid.

        I've been driven to back off my participation around here because of the anger-meta around here. But there's more good than bad around here, so I won't be posting any GBCW diaries any time soon.

        As for Meteor Blades, I couldn't agree more. I've had a chat with him a time or two. He's an old timer, vet of the 60's activism, and extremely wise. I'm inclined to follow his lead whenever it comes up. He has been, sadly, rather intermittent in his appearances lately. :(

        (I'm thinking that a hallmark of folks like us "deep-meta" crew, is the length of our comments/responses. I honestly don't even MEAN to go on so long! hehe)

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 02:06:14 PM PDT

•  Well, I'll be...

  damned...

  Could've sworn that diary was a total non-starter. :)

  You got the point of what I was getting at, that's for sure!

  My concern has been in the course of all of our meta-madness, we missed something critical;

  if we can't find ways to deal with each other (and more often than not we really DO OK overall), when we disagree, how the hell are we going to be more effective in the wider debate?

  There's a distinct connection between what we talk about "meta" here, and how each of us interacts with the rest of the country. We need to be aware of that. :)

  I'm humbled and flattered that someone picked up on the diary. Just goes to show, even the ones that look dead in the water, can still ripple out!

  I like your idea, and I've added the tag.

  Maybe we're just geeking out, but I sure as hell have noticed the communities tides, ebbing and flowing around the events of the days and weeks.

  I find it fascinating. :)

  -Christina Baldwin

  by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:43:40 PM PDT

  •  I'd rather praise you....

    and please don't remain damned for long!  We need all the metafolk we can muster.
       

    Just goes to show, even the ones that look dead in the water, can still ripple out!

        So true!  Even in a time of darkness,  truth is making the connections it needs.
        It's not geeking out (well maybe a little...) but this is a very important subject.  Goes to the heart....

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:03:04 PM PDT

    •  EXACTLY!!

      and here I just thought I was ready for the looney-bin! ;)

      It's kind of like fractals, neural networks, the very internet we're all blabbering on and on... on.
      hehe

      This place is a living organism in and of itself. This sort of meta is just a kind of collective self-reflection, and like Socrates said;

      The unexamined life is not worth living.

      Just sayin... :)

      -Christina Baldwin

      by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:10:07 PM PDT

      •  I know that there are more than a few of us.

            Of course, that is what occult (a cult?) is all about.  Hard to see the others. :)

        This place is a living organism in and of itself. This sort of meta is just a kind of collective self-reflection

            BINGO!

            This hooking up with keyboards is a whole new bag.  Are we ready for some Marshall McLuhan?  Very prescient.

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:35:29 PM PDT

        •  Ohhh!!! McLuhan...

          ya know... I've heard of him here and there, but don't know much about him.

          After a quick google and looking at a few of his quotes, I'm now a fan! :)  This one in particular...

          You mean my whole fallacy’s wrong?

          HAHAHAHA!!!! love this dude! and this...

          This information is top security. When you have read it, destroy yourself.

          Thanks for the heads up there!

          It really is cool to know you're not the only one with this sort of perspective. I'll keep up the deep meta too, now that I know there's others out there with an eye for this sort of thing!

          -Christina Baldwin

          by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:03:09 PM PDT

          •  I like to think McLuhan

            would have loved dKos.  It really heralds a new use of information in a new medium, and is in itself a message (ala, the medium is the message.  This kind of sensibility is what McLuhan used so well in analyzing and understanding all media by which people communicate with each other.

            Deep meta explores the message of the medium of dKos and sites like it very much in the tradition of McLuhan.

            by eOz on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:08:24 PM PDT

            •  As usual...

              I've got a LOT of reading to do!

              Got to remember to turn it around and WRITE more often too.

              I'm trying like crazy to remember who had mentioned McLuhan to me before. It was during something important, and I'm just having mnemonic constipation. hehe

              -Christina Baldwin

              by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:13:05 PM PDT

      •  NOW NOW, I KNOW YOU'RE EXCITED n/t

        by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:38:43 PM PDT

        •  Really...

          I'm NOT bouncing up and down or anything... really I'm not! :)

          -Christina Baldwin

          by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:53:40 PM PDT

          •  "You DO know what the most wonderful thing...

            about Tiggers" is... right? :)

            Sorry... couldn't help it!

            -Christina Baldwin

            by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:03:58 PM PDT

          •  NO, BUT I AM! First Timer fun! n/t

            by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:25:36 PM PDT

•  Finding the roots of Netroots

  Deep meta diaries process and reflect on the Netroots as a community of minds seeking to enlighten each other.  kos has evoked in many of us a visionary quest to use the blogosphere to allow people to find touchpoints, and empowered each of us to use those touchpoints to reach other people who may have lost hope of really changing the political process from the nitty-gritty of the current electorial battles to a movement arising out of the grassroots.

  This Netroots exemplifies many writings, from Alvin Toffler's The Third Wave to examples from the Enlightment to now, including the Constitution itself.  For the Enlightenment, and its philosophical principles, was the impetus to start this experiment called the United States Of America.

  Upon starting to read diaries on dKos, the concept of the Netroots as an explication of the grassroots (using the Web to connect people without the limitation of geography) was made real, especially in the deep meta diaries such as many of the works of Paul Rosenberg, where I felt a call to step back and put our current political movements into a context which outlasts any particular election but energizes the urgency of every election.

  As Paul pointed out in comments to my diary, I was either engaging in wishful thinking or a thought experiment.  It can be hard to tell the difference until something we wish for actually happens.  Those moments in politics are few and far between, but they are remembered in our common history forever.

  If kos helps bring about the return of liberalism and progressive policies in the Federal, State and local governments by creating a place for the Netroots to gather, inspire each other and organize themselves (along with all the other blogs which have spawned from this base), then that will be wishful thinking made real in a way which will be historic.  I believe the Netroots movement has already made history, but kos ever reminds us to not relax our vigilance or let down our guard.  To truly succeed in making a permanent change to the political landscape, we have to press on.

  Thus I gladly will add deep meta tags to my diaries when that is my subject as you suggest.  I believe those diaries provide a background against which the current arguments and debate can be given context, and provide long-term "wishes" based on Enlightenment principles which truly form the Western liberal tradition of thought and action.  If we cannot see the ultimate goals of human liberty protected against all tyranny, we run the risk of losing our way and being weakened by an opposition who can use their databases to yell louder and attempt to trigger chaos, which plays to the benefit of the illiberal forces in our culture.

  dKos, and places like it, have given us solace in the storm; have let us know we are not alone, but actually numerous; and have given us hope We The People can reclaim our sovereignty over this Government.  I am glad for that, and love both the current debates of passion and the historic arc of the argument that enlightened people can rule themselves without having to invoke God or Tradition or anything else in their stead.  All levels in between make this a place I have come to appreciate more than I could ever say.

  Excellent diary.  This initiative will help us explore the long-term background of our current struggle, and ground us better for the very real battles on the ground we must engage to ever get close to the culture we want, and need, to become and in which we all want our children to live.

  by eOz on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 04:56:17 PM PDT

  •  Even though it's going to take me...

    most likely a couple days to get through your diaries... I'm on it.

    You and good ole kafkananda here, have hit on one of my own personal "touchpoints" as you put it.

    incredible...

    can't thank you both enough here. I seriously had wondered if I was simply... out there, and kind of isolated. Now I know better.

    Wow... :)

    -Christina Baldwin

    by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:09:41 PM PDT

    •  Knowing we are not alone

      is part of the magic of this place.

      by eOz on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:11:35 PM PDT

      •  So very true...

        and it's why I love it here so much.

        One big, sometimes dysfunctional, crazy family. hehe

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:14:15 PM PDT

    •  You got that right, good ole, accent on ole.. n/t

      by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:54:13 PM PDT

      •  Another great thing about this medium...

        I STILL have no idea as to your particulars...

        ie age, gender, geographic location, etc...

        and ya know, it doesn't really matter. It's a purely intellectual, interpersonal connection without all the biases & BS the rest of that info brings.

        I do so love that!

        'sides... you're only as ole (or is that olé?!) as you let yourself be!! I gotta tell ya, no matter how old I get, I still feel like a kid half the time! :)

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 06:52:12 PM PDT

  •  You are my Deep Meta godperson!

         I had put godfather, but in truth I don't know.  Just goes to show the conditioning of my mind.
         I'm going out now for a few hours.
         Great Comments!
         
         SORRY, eOz, my bad in another comment.  We metafolk are aided by all the precision we can bring.

    by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:12:12 PM PDT

    •  Why did that remind me of...

      Frank Herbert's "The God Makers"? Time to head home from work!

      -Christina Baldwin

      by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:17:17 PM PDT

    •  We just write

      you had the insight to name the connection among our writings.  That insight stands on its own.

      And you have found a space in the blogosphere to rescue and highlight those writings, and make them accessible to readers.  All of us so connected appreciate your initiative.

      Go get 'em.  I look forward to reading the writings you find and of those who label their work with this tag.

      by eOz on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 05:55:02 PM PDT

      •  Nothing I can do...

        but second that emotion! :)

        Damn, my motown is showing!

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 07:15:26 PM PDT

      •  Something I thought I should...

        throw out to ya both... check this out

        Will We Suffer from the Iraq Syndrome? by Ira Chernus

        I would personally qualify this as "deep meta" in this context. It's dead on.

        -Christina Baldwin

        by Erevann on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 07:20:44 PM PDT

        •  Ira could easily be right

          We could regress or progress -- such is the nature of humanity.  I tend to think that "fool me twice" in one generation, however, might give us pause before we buy the bill of goods again.  But the risk is there.  That's why we need to write like our nation depends on it.

          by eOz on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 08:04:56 PM PDT

          •  Two thoughts

            occurred to me while I read your excellent "T-20" diary.

            First, when you described the virus of Reagan's 11th Commandment:  

            Issues no longer matter.  Debate among peers cannot be allowed.

            you were also describing the sadly increasing nature of the dynamics here, in the sense that it has become more important to many in the community to defend their allies than to engage in respectful, attentive debate.

            Second, under your heading of "Gnosis and Cunning" you said

            The danger of political power is that it is unstable.  One secret revealed can begin the unraveling of the whole web of lies it protects.  As more secrets are created by the natural course of events and decisions, layers of secrecy must be maintained within the corpus of the body politic.  The whole structure becomes vulnerable to the failure of a single element.  The sense of danger grows.  People must be sacrificed, careers ruined, nations destablized and innocients slaughtered or imprisoned  in an ever-widening circle of deception and dirty tricks.

            Apart from this being a keen observation, it made we wonder if you've ever read Stanislaw Lem's Memoirs Found in a Bathtub?

            by OkieByAccident on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 08:46:54 PM PDT

            •  No, I have not read that book,

              but will definitely add it to my reading list on your recommendation!

              I know the defensive nature of a lot of diaries can be frustrating -- you can feel real debate under the surface but it just doesn't surface and get going.  But many people want to work for a candidate, and devote a lot of their time and energy (and invest their hopes and fears) to that work, and this site is designed to foster that committment, so I don't mind it so much.  I tend to scan through the threads looking for nuggets of insight or candid debate even in the middle of "my candidate can beat yours" action.

              I just crave balance.  I like the passion and sometimes feel like I'm watching a wrestling match, but I just want more citizen-to-citizen discourse and argument because candidates cannot engage in that kind of talk these days, but they need to see it to know the mind of the People and so educate themselves on what could be said, given the right political opening.

              I find it interesting and refreshing to see Republicans like Chuck Hagle freed from the 11th commandment, and these breakaways leaven the political bread on the MSM because they are so rare any more.  If we could get across to the politicians that each of them would get more notice, and Congress would be more interesting and carry out their duties better, if they would chuck the politickspeak and speak out.

              But, short of that, I think we need to model the discourse we want them to have, and maybe they will get the idea or the opportunity to break the spell and snap the back of Reagan's Curse.

              by eOz on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 07:09:11 PM PDT

          •  Honestly...

            I think the advent of THIS community, and the attending technological advancement in communication, might just keep us from back-sliding this time.

            Well, this and the obvious "fool me twice" concept Ira mentions. :)

            The unfortunate thing I see on it's way is, that we may only learn our lesson, by experiencing another collapse like the great depression.

            It's getting harder and harder for me to see other possible roads for this all to take. It worry's me greatly, but a serious adjustment in this nation is going to be painful. One way or another.

            -Christina Baldwin

            by Erevann on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 02:10:42 PM PDT

            •  Our leaders have no vision

              and it may be that a crisis is what forces those with vision to enter the arena and take the guff that comes with it.  That is why I think we need to project our vision of the way through, because leaders are looking for something to say that will make them stand out.

              The People crave vision.  Some of us have visions, and we should submit them to each other and subject them to good-spirited debate to sharpen and anneal them into the kind of language that can lift a nation from the day-to-day and put it back on a progressive course.  Obama speaks like one with vision speaks, but the contents are shallow.   Edwards had the beginnings of a vision with the Two Americas, but hasn't been able to ignite a passion and insight to put it above the "more welfare" straw man.

              After 9-11, we expected that kind of vision from our leaders, but we didn't get it.  We are still grieving and we still haven't healed.  We have lost our optimism about the future.  We have lost our teflon against fear.  We have lost our willingness to live with a balanced risk so we can live free.

              But we can regain all that, and more.  We need to speak out, willing to have our vision called idealism or naive or whatever, so others hear it and find words (for or against doesn't matter as much as the finding) of their own.  We need to stir each other's hearts and challenge each other's souls.  Those are the ingredients for vision, no matter what karma we are bound to reap or turns of bad fortune come our way.

              We are best when we have hope.

              by eOz on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 07:21:27 PM PDT

•  Thanks everybody for your comments.

      As the word gets around, there will be a whole lot of thought provoking and inspiring insights,  I'm sure.  I'll continue to search for diaries that the tag deep meta should be attached to.  Look out for the Deep Meta Review about once a week.  There's an awful lot of material begging to come to light.  As we  point out the practical aspects of deep meta (framing, inspiring, learning, growing, etc.), the impact will grow exponentially.

      Peace and good night.

  by kafkananda on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 09:52:58 PM PDT

•  The term meta

  has been co-opted. I know I'm an old fart in these parts, but it used to be that meta was more about the technical workings of the site and the demographics of its participants and less about what I call navel-gazing. Perhaps navel-gazing (or wanking, depending on the degree and duration) more accurately describes what I see on my dKos meta rss feed these days, and should be the new tag. I'll gladly add it to the approved tags list, if so.

  by The Centerfielder on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:05:47 AM PDT