Daily Kos

Impeachment: Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right

Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:16:41 PM PDT

Back in December, in the middle of the "impeachment wars," there was a compelling "cooler heads" argument against calling for impeachment.  The crux of it was that Congress didn't have sufficient grounds to impeach the President because Congress hadn't tried to take back the powers the President had stolen and abused.  That, and to ask Congress to impeach before trying to reassert its constitutional role was to set a precedent for hair-trigger impeachments in the future.  

It's a process argument, and I'm all about process.  But what rankles in my brain is the denial of the logical end of the process.

Big Tent Democrat put it this way:

To now argue that it is impeachment that is the bulwark against the abuse of Executive Power is to hand the Right a gift, for that is the argument they make.  They argue that Congress and the Courts can only resort to the most dramatic of remedies against Presidential wartime power - the power of the purse, the power of impeachment. It is wrong to argue this line in order to foward the preferred course on impeachment.

Liberals and Democrats must resist this impulse for two reasons -- (1) it is simply incorrect, and (2) it is extremely dangerous. In arguing in this fashion, the Liberal strips the Congress and the Supreme Court of the powers granted it to separate the immense powers of the federal government and allows for the abdication of the responsible role of an overseeing Legislature and a reviewing Court.

So by all means, argue your views on impeachment but let us not throw over the separation of powers in the bargain. It is inaccurate and dangerous to do so.

Major Danby had something eloquent to say on the matter (second comment) a month ago:

As a legal matter, that makes sense, but
as a political matter, I don't see how Congress now impeaches the President for an action that Congress has itself endorsed.  It might make sense if combined with a mass seppuku of members of the 110th Congress who voted for the offensive measure while in the 109th -- which would be fine with me -- but short of that I just can't imagine it.

Please take the above comment as stand-alone, apart from the rest of this diary -- I do not pretend to represent Major Danby's views on impeachment.

Here's the thing.  The President broke the law and broke his oath to the Constitution:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Take your pick of offenses -- warrantless domestic spying, violating the Geneva Conventions on torture, you name it -- we know, today, that the President committed impeachable offenses, and that he deserves removal from office and criminal prosecution for those offenses.

The fact that Congresspeople broke and continue to break their oath to the Constitution (hello, Military Commissions Act) as well does not mean that it's premature to call for impeachment.  Of course the odds are heavily against it.  But impeachment is Congress reasserting its rightful power.  Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution:

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

says nothing about what Congress has done.  In fact, "shall be removed" is not optional, it is mandatory.

To say that, sure, Congress ought to take on its proper constitutional role, but that impeachment must be "off the table" for now is to feign ignorance.  It is to pretend that we don't know what we know.  And even if Bush were to all of a sudden start complying with the law, it does not erase all of the past grievances.  The Supreme Court already said the President broke the law in Hamdan V. Rumsfeld.  The Court, though, has no powers to reprimand the President for crimes of office.  Only Congress can do that, through impeachment (or censure).  Congress exercising oversight and making law, in general, is the regular business of elected officials.  By itself that does not a free society make.

Of course there is a process -- to say otherwise flies in the face of the rule of law we're trying to establish in the first place.  That process is to hold hearings in the House of Representatives to determine whether this President and his administration committed offenses rising to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors, followed by a House vote on impeachment, a Senate trial and vote on conviction, and then criminal indictments, trials, convictions, and sentencing.  To open hearings with impeachment "on the table" is little different from convening a criminal grand jury and acknowledging that a possible outcome is conviction and sentincing.

We are not politicians here.  We ought to say what we think.  Let the politicians spin and strategize.  How will they know how to represent us if we muffle our true thoughts, values, beliefs, and principles?  Here, on this liberal blog, to dismiss talk of impeachment, the logical end to the application of the law and the Constitution, is to belittle the idea of impeachment ever getting started in the first place.

I call upon members of the House of Representatives to open hearings into the conduct of the Bush administration, with the express possibility of impeachment openly articulated from the start.  Help us uphold the rule of law, and therefore our freedom.

[Title changed 11:37 PM PST.]

[Title changed again Mar. 6 1:20 PM PST.  Original text below the title:  No, this isn't an attempt to bring him off his GBCW ledge.  This is a substantive post about impeachment that I meant to write a bit ago, and now's a better occasion than never.  Plus, great title, eh?]

Tags: impeachment, Constitution, George W. Bush (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 48 comments

  •  My favorite article of impeachment: (22+ / 0-)

    violating FISA and the Fourth Amendment.  Hell, Bush bragged about it openly.

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:17:27 PM PDT

    •  That has always been the perfect starting point. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      CF Perez, epppie

      Have there been any investigations about FISA violations?  

      Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by DWG on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:45:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Congresspeople have gotten (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DWG, epppie, fake consultant

        administration officials, like Attorney General Gonzales, to lie testify about it.  I'm not aware of any full-blown investigations.  Hopefully the Sibel Edmonds/Gilbert Graham revelations of late combined with some lobbying on our part is enough to stir up some action.

        Sen. Russ Feingold did try to get a censure provision going in the Senate last year, for this very offense.

        Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

        by Simplify on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:14:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the biggest barrier... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MajorFlaw, epppie

          ...could be if the administration asserts a national security defense, requiring classified articles of impeachment and a closed door trial.

          lose a lot of public support that way.

          --we are making enemies faster than we can kill them

          by fake consultant on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:35:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  National security defense? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            fake consultant

            From the administration that leaked the identity of a CIA operative working on counterproliferation of WMD?  From the administration that went on vacation when warned that bin Laden was a threat?  From the administration that bogged down our military in Iraq and Afghanistan?  

            There is no basis for holding secret impeachment hearings and closed door trials, particularly since no confidential information will be used to try them.  FISA rules are cleared specified - Bush did not follow them.  Bush failed to uphold international treaties that the US is a party to.  Etc...

            If Bush argues you cannot remove the CiC in a time of war, we need to push harder and say we afford not to remove an incompetent CiC in a time of war.

            Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

            by DWG on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 03:56:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the theory is... (0+ / 0-)

              ...bush would claim he must reveal "sources and methods" to explain the violations and present a proper defense, and we go from there...

              as regards this:

              "If Bush argues you cannot remove the CiC in a time of war, we need to push harder and say we afford not to remove an incompetent CiC in a time of war."

              amen, brother.

              --we are making enemies faster than we can kill them

              by fake consultant on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:29:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so the moral for future dictators is . . . (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                truong son traveler

                First step: Start a war, anywhere and on any flimsy pretense

                Second step: Deflect ANY questions with the "national security" shield.

                Ta-da! The perfect crime!! And SO SO easy too!

                our system is so incredibly fucked . . .

                "The best way to determine what a person wants is by surveying what he gets." -Erle Stanley Gardner

                by KOTCrum on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 05:12:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  again, i would... (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  MajorFlaw

                  ...point to andrew johnson.

                  a future congress could demand withdrawal from a conflict, or that no money be spent on a conflict; and then pursue a "violation of the will of the congress" impeachment, and then proceed to the senate for trial.

                  both acts (veto override and conviction) would require 2/3 votes in one or both chambers.

                  so there's no reason to be any more concerned than you might have been yesterday.

                  --we are making enemies faster than we can kill them

                  by fake consultant on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 05:33:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  concerned? (0+ / 0-)

                    actually I am concerned more as the days go by and I see how far off the beam the country can be taken before there is any reaction of substance

                    "The best way to determine what a person wants is by surveying what he gets." -Erle Stanley Gardner

                    by KOTCrum on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:25:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Did you even READ Machiavelli? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Simplify

                  That is how it has been done since, shit, forever.

                  I think Carter was the only one to do otherwise!

                  Say No to Spineless Democrats!

                  by roboton on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:27:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  i'm still waiting (3+ / 0-)

          to see someone ask AG whether members of congress were monitored.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 02:00:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  don't forget... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Simplify, Yellow Canary

      ...presidential signing statements-violating the will of congress was the basis of andrew johnson's first article of impeachment.

      --we are making enemies faster than we can kill them

      by fake consultant on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:39:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Constitution says that removal (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Major Danby, dennisl, epppie, Demi Moaned

    is mandatory upon conviction - which is obvious.  But bringing impeachments proceedings and convicted thereon are still judgment calls.  

    I think it would be politically unwise for the Democrats to openly state, at this point, that impeachment is a possible goal.  The smart move is to play down that goal as much as possible.

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:20:44 PM PDT

    •  Why? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Simplify, MajorFlaw

      Almost two-thirds of Americans have steadily agreed that if the President lied to take the country to war in Iraq, he should be impeached.

      And that's just one of this President's lies.

      As pointed out above, the President broke the law when he flouted FISA, and bragged about it.  Why is it politically expedient to kow-tow to a law-breaker?

      Why is it politically expedient to let a lying torturer lie and torture?

      It might be politically savvy for the party leaders to keep mum, but it seems politically idiot and morally irresponsible to not unleash every single political operative against a regime so openly criminal.

      They torture people.  They kidnap people and kill them.  They have committed the supreme war crime, which is the crime of aggressive war.  What would it take to convince you that speaking out against evil is strategically smart?

      Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

      by Yellow Canary on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:04:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wu ming, labradog, epppie

    How will they know how to represent us if we muffle our true thoughts, values, beliefs, and principles?

    We must all speak our mind. This is what moves the Overton Window

    "If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy." -teacherken

    by offgrid on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:21:14 PM PDT

  •  You might want to change the title of this diary. (7+ / 0-)

    As I understand it, calling another member out by name is considered uncool.  

    •  But, Armando is gone... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw

      ...according to Armando, no less. So this would be calling out a former member.

      I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

      by labradog on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:22:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  At the time my comment was posted, the title of (0+ / 0-)

        this diary had someone else's name in place of Armando's.  If you read the diary itself you can prolly figger out who.  This diary could easily have made the very same argument without reference to another member, whether present or former.    

        •  My apologies (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MajorFlaw

          I read this diary when there were only 27 comments, and I guess I'm not with-it enough to figure out the now-secret part.
          That's what I get for dipping my toe into inside Kos-ball!

          I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

          by labradog on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:56:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No apology is necessary. (0+ / 0-)

            I can see how funny my comment would look to anyone who didn't see the original version of this  diary.  When you don't understand something asking questions is a good thing, no?  Nobody is keeping any "secrets" however there has been an effort to avoid gratuitously stepping on toes.  Other than than trying to keep things civil and reality based I try to stay out of the "inside" game and just do my own thing.  

  •  Bad form (14+ / 0-)

    Inappropriate to call out a diarist in the title of the diary.

    "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire

    by PsiFighter37 on Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 11:23:00 PM PDT

  •  It's not just the President (6+ / 0-)

    Take your pick of offenses -- warrantless domestic spying, violating the Geneva Conventions on torture, you name it -- we know, today, that the President committed impeachable offenses, and that he deserves removal from office and criminal prosecution for those offenses.

    As a matter of principle, I agree with this point. But the fact is, the President is not a 'lone gunman'. The violations of law are happening at all levels. And so far, there has been no accountability.

    It's very 'go for broke' to start with impeachment. Even if it succeeded (doubtful, at present), it would probably have the effect of letting all the lesser players off the hook.

    I think we need to create a true culture of accountability in government and it needs to start lower down the chain. (Like this US Attorneys issue, just to pick one.)

  •  When it comes to negotiating with other countries (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wu ming, Fabian, Simplify, fake consultant

    all options are supposed to be on the table, even the most heinous ones.

    When it comes to a President who seems to have betrayed his oath of office in countless ways, it almost seems like all options are supposed to be off the table.

    The world dearly loves a cage.

    by epppie on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:49:55 AM PDT

  •  60 votes in the Senate? (0+ / 0-)

    No way, no how. I greatly wish it were otherwise.

    Spend your energies on something you can accomplish.

    -4.25, -4.87 "If the truth were self-evident, there would be no need for eloquence." -- Cicero

    by HeyMikey on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:52:02 AM PDT

    •  lash the republicans to the mast (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Simplify, fake consultant

      of a sinking ship, then. at least it will be clear who is preventing the carriage of justice.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 02:02:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  HeyMikey, new info everyday, another nail in the (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fabian, fake consultant

      coffin. Tomorrow is a new day with new revelations. Maybe we can nail these zombies in the coffin soon. More nails, please.

      •  My pet rightwing blogger.... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jimreyn, MajorFlaw, fake consultant

        She's a True Believer.  She's married to a Navy man and her son is heading off to the Naval Academy after graduation.  I keep an eye on her blog to see what's rocking in the world of True Believers.  I thought that the Walter Reed scandal would have gotten SOME kind of reaction from her.  Military?  Support the troops?  Navy?  Hello?  Nothing.  Dead silence.

        Her persistent themes in this season of the Democratic Congress have been Dem-bashing, liberal-bashing, dirty hippy-bashing and Hillary-bashing.  I replied to her complaints about "wasting time" on investigations and hearings with that right wing chestnut about extra judicial wiretaps "If they haven't done anything wrong, then they don't have anything to worry about!".  

        There has to be a finite number of scandals that an administration can be burdened with before it collapses.  New scandals are showing up at about one per month.  That's independent of any investigations!  At this rate the Bush administration will have a full dozen scandals by December - plus fallout from hearings & investigations.  That boggles my mind.  

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 03:24:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The number of votes available is not static. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Simplify

      I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

      by labradog on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:23:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll stand by my comment in the text (4+ / 0-)

    (and I do pretend to represent Major Danby's views on impeachment!)

    I don't think the ability to impeach takes away any exercise of Congressional discretion, for one thing.  For another, Presidents are sometimes held to have violated the law; I'd think that such an action would only pose an impeachable offense if the law is clear and the violation is willful.

    FISA is a good case in point.  I think that the President willfully broke a clear law.  I could personally favor impeachment and removal on this basis.  But to secure removal, we would need to show that (1) the President's theory -- that FISA is an unconstitutional restriction on his executive war powers -- is wrong, and (2) that it is so obviously wrong that he was wrong to even challenged the law.  Frankly, given that I don't know what a Supreme Court would do (especially given any replacement for one of the 4 moderate-liberals) with a challenge to FISA, the second bar is hard to clear.

    As I've said, my standard for going ahead with impeachment is not our having the votes for removal, it's having such compelling arguments that anyone who supports the President is disgraced, as would have been the case with Nixon.  I'm afraid that we're not there yet with respect to FISA.  Good diary nonetheless.

    If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

    ~ Umberto Eco

    by Major Danby on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:13:02 AM PDT

    •  this is why i suggest... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Simplify

      ...going after signing statements.

      the burden of proof is somewhat simpler-could congresses' will be determined, and was it violated by the signing statements and the actions that folllowed.

      --we are making enemies faster than we can kill them

      by fake consultant on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 04:35:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Except that isn't what he did (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn

      He didn't challenge the law.  He violated a duly constituted law w/o challenging it.  The impeachable offense lies in that action.  We have a system whereby we enact legislation, implement legislation and challenge legislation.  That process is assumed to be known by every US citizen i.e. ignorance of the law is no excuse.  

      What was done here was the worst sort of criminality: those taxed w/ an especially high burden of adhering to the process and the law, violated it in the most extreme way.  Impeachment is the only appropriate remedy.

      •  Violating a law one believes is unconstitutional (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Simplify, real world chick

        is a way of challenging it.  You need an actual case or controversy to make it into court, right?  But I agree that there should have been another way; I imagine that a better President would have found a way to see a declaratory judgment.

        If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

        ~ Umberto Eco

        by Major Danby on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:30:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That may be the only available venue (0+ / 0-)

          for you and me, but not the president.  He is tasked w/ upholding the law.  He has a whole dept of justice who can challenge the sufficiency of any legilation it wants.  He has a whole party that can introduce any change he feels is necessary.  Don't think that creating a case or controversy fits these circumstances.  Thanks for replying.  I always enjoy your diaries and comments.

          •  Thanks for the compliment (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            real world chick

            If you're talking about challenging it court, you do need a case or controversy.  If you're talking about challenging it legislatively, yes he could have done that.

            If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

            ~ Umberto Eco

            by Major Danby on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:50:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it is *that* obviously wrong (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, Simplify

      ... to secure removal, we would need to show that (1) the President's theory -- that FISA is an unconstitutional restriction on his executive war powers -- is wrong, and (2) that it is so obviously wrong that he was wrong to even challenged the law.

      1. An open-and-shut case. FISA details the process laid out in the Fourth Amendment -- search and seizure requires a warrant issued by the courts. The entire constellation of powers -- Congress writes the law, the courts issue warrants, the executive does the searching -- is in keeping with the doctrine of separation of powers. The Constitution is quite clear about all of this.
      1. I'm not convinced that this should be a standard for impeachment, but even if it is, the violations of FISA are so obviously wrong that the President should not have challenged it, and he should be removed from office for it. His "guilty demeanor" tends to validate that -- he was determined to keep the wiretappings secret, and pressured the NYT not to reveal them. But I don't see why a President's "state of mind" should matter; the theory of the "unitary executive", by which the President can violate even the Constitution itself, is so abhorrent to the entire system that Congress should take positive action, including impeachment if necessary, to ensure that it is banished entirely from all future workings of the government.

      BTW, what does the Supreme Court have to do with this? The Supreme Court and Congress are at the heads of two co-equal branches of government, and it's Congress' prerogative to decide the standards by which a President is impeached and removed.

      Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      by Buckeye Hamburger on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 05:29:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really, it's not so clear (0+ / 0-)

        and while I agree with your conclusion, I think that you massively underestimate the problems there would be proving this case.  The questions are how much the President has intrinsic war powers as C-in-C and how much the 2001 AUMF strengthened his powers to take actions ancillary to the fight against Al Qaeda.  You do our side no favor by pretending that fights over those will both be enormous battles with the outcome in doubt.

        Yes, theoretically Congress can impeach and remove the President for letting his dog shit on the White House lawn or for wearing an ugly tie.  But to try to build a political program based on that prospect is wasting all of our time.

        If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

        ~ Umberto Eco

        by Major Danby on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 12:53:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Impeachment and partisan majorities (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Simplify

    I believe that Bush can and should be removed for his violation of FISA; and should he violate the will of Congress in other ways in the near future -- for example, by defying subpoenas or refusing to accept congressional limitations on conduct of the war -- then that, too, would be grounds for impeachment. But unfortunately, I don't agree with you about war crimes that were retroactively legalized by the Military Commissions Act. Up until the enactment of MCA, I would have agreed with you; I think that Bush's war crimes have been utterly evil, and I think that burning in hell would be too good the Congressmen who voted for the MCA, including the new Senator from my state. Repealing the MCA should be one of Congress' highest priorities. But there are better ways to restore the order of the Constitution that has been disrupted by Bush and Cheney than using it to throw them out for doing things that, unfortunately, are now legal (even if they never should have been).

    OK, I just wrote a comment about this that was 800 words long; so I'll cut it short and save the rest for a full diary. But let me just say this: If you're really "all about process", then that's precisely why we should not go down this route. What's most offensive about the Bush/Cheney regime, and most dangerous for the future of the country, is their utter contempt for the Constitution. If we use the constitutional process of impeachment as a remedy, we have to be utterly scrupulous in doing so. Think of what this would mean: The 109th Congress retroactively makes certain acts of the President legal, and the 110th Congress turns around and removes him from office for those very same acts -- and the main difference between the 109th and 110th Congresses is which party is in the majority. That would degrade the Constitution, which foresees impeachment as a serious constitutional process, and not a partisan bludgeon.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 05:09:21 AM PDT

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