Daily Kos

Legal Seminar Day 2 Trolls Stay Away While the

Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 09:31:20 PM PDT

rest of us try to learn something. Zimmerman spent a lot of time on currency today and how the fed inflates it. I once took economic lectures with Greenspan when I was a Randian so I am up on this shill game. Our paper is worth half as much as it was two years ago. This is not too bad if you have a mortgage as you are paying it off with inflated dollars, i.e. cheaper dollars. So your house is costing half what you thought you were paying for it. If it has dropped in value half or more it is not so good. In the 80's I used to say just add another zero and keep on. If you mentally couldn't do that and just gawked at prices you froze up. Got afraid. Remembered more vividly the depression. And just generally became unable to think creatively about money.

Zimmerman discussed objections. Objections in court. Objections to contracts that are being trashed. Objections to fiat money.  If you don't object you lend your agreement to the conditions, so when in doubt object.

Go on for my personal example.

In 2000 I moved to Ozark County to a house and wrote up a simple do nothing contract to buy it from the owner who was dying to get rid of it. In 2001 it was formalized with a bank loan and the seller was paid off. In June 2003 my alcoholic neighbors killed my beloved German Shepherd and I was in an intentional community in Webster County by July 2003. I just moved out of my house and left everything.That October I bought my Victorian storefront commercial with apartment and loft for $100 down. I have told this story here before. The owner held the mortgage and it was leaglly finalized in early December 2004 just two weeks before the seller was murdered by her brother. So I pay her grandson the mortgage.

I sold my house on Contract for Deed in May 2004. The contract involved their moving my stuff as a down payment. They only moved half of it. They stole more and some is still in the garage. The contract says they are to pay the insurance and the taxes. Not.. They gave me a hot check for the insurance right off the bat. In MO this is grounds for cancelling the contract. So they have not acted in good faith. But neither have I. I have continued to take their monthly payments while I grumble at them because I need the money. All the time I am planning to become independent of that money and then I plan to lower the boom on them and kick them out (and resell it for more money) as I made them sign a Quit Claim Deed so I could do just that. I have learned from a different transaction that is not cleaned up either.

So Zimmerman starts to talk today about Notice and Demand a legal instrument. Yesterday he talked about Latches, which means that if you have been wronged, or a contract with you has been violated by the other party, you only have a specific amount of time to act on that violation. You cannot hold it over their head forever. And this is what I have been doing in my mind. So he has informed me that this is not a solution. And this has been a recurring pattern with me on a number of levels. I rationalize that I don't have the fortune necessary for attorneys. The truth is that I didn't know anything abut the legality of doing this and that it had a label.

The remedy is Notice and Demand where by you define the violation, how you have been wronged, (damages in court will be actual plus punitive if it goes that far). In N and D you quote precedents. Precedents need to be from appeal decisions as those are stronger, carry more weight with the court. So you are basically putting them on notice, i.e. you are objecting to the status quo and are demanding a remedy. If you don't get it you are also holding the stick of going to court to get a remedy if you have to, which is why you lay out the precedents. This is also the same instrument used to get rid of the $175 mortgage discussed yesterday. The precedents quote the law forbiding the lending institutions to use other loans as if they were cash in order True Bill in their mortgages to get rid of this problem of breaking the law. This is how they are pushing these phoney mortgages on people whereby they pay interest only and while the house value goes down the mortgage soon is more than the house is worth. And this is endemic and the house of cards is crashing. So please, trolls, don't tell me that the banks would not knowingly defraud people because that is just what they have done. They never lent cash. They just lent numbers that were electronically deposited in accounts all on the basis of 5% cash on hand.

OK on to something else. Here is what he called a tidbit. Understand that at one time the courts were all Common Law Courts. Certain formalities prevailed such as the ritual of oaths. Now the courts want to keep the oath part but don't want to spend the time with the rituals. It is presumed that every attorney is under oath in court. You, as pro se, are presumed to be lying because you are not under oath. So what if you don't know that? It means that the attorney's words will always be taken over yours on any issue as he is telling the truth and you are lying. How's that for nice. You will be asked to state your name and spell it even if the court person asking you is someone you are sleeping with. It is as if the person does not know you in their public role.

Here's what you do: You state your name and spell it, "and I wish to state for the record that in this courtroom today my every utterance shall be true and made under pain and penalty of perjury." The judge will stop you after about your first three words because he knows what you are going to do. You just begin again and this time you will get a little further into the sentence. The judge will tell you you don't have to bother doing that. You begin again until you get to the end of the sentence uninterrupted.

Now you are on an equal basis with the attorney which is even more important when there is a jury. And it is on record for a possible appeal. You can even read it aloud.

One more tidbit: Objections and as said above if you don't object it is assumed you agree. When in doubt, object. It is better to object when you don't have to rather than miss an important one. If the judge asks why, you say "I'll be pleased to brief the court." (Remember write don't blabber.) The judge may say when. You say 30 days. If he doesn't set a date you are not expected to do it. But it is on record. And objections are the food for an appeal. You can take a good one from the record and build your entire appeal on that one word.

More to come. When will I ever sleep again?

Tags: legal, pro se, bad advice (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 109 comments

  •  tipjar (8+ / 0-)

    Happy hunting. Please hit the rec button. We need info.

    I keep thinking of Tammy Grimes and Doogie and the substitute teacher charged for porno in the classroom and having a miscarriage over it. Bastards.

    FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

    by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 09:31:56 PM PDT

  •  This shit again? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    YetiMonk, debedb

    Haven't we seen enough of it here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    and here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Beware folks, this diary contains really BAD advice.

    •  Wish I had another troll in my pocket (0+ / 0-)

      Don't mind if you think it's bad advice. How about detailing why you think so.

      When studying art history profs ridicule people who look at a Jackson Pollack and say my  kid could do that! Or say I like that picture. Or I don't like that picture. Their taste or knowledge exists on a primitive level. Liking or not liking. No understanding of why a painting is really good or not so good.

      I mean suppose you say, "I don't like Bush." So what. What does that tell us. Or he's stupid. Or he made a mess of Iraq. All of these things may be true but thee is no detail. No why. No analysis.

      Go to a wine tasting. I like this. I don't like this one. Says nothing except you are not a con-a sur.

      Nada. Bad. Lousy. Guess what I am referring to.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 09:52:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK, I'll bite. (7+ / 0-)

        Don't mind if you think it's bad advice. How about detailing why you think so.

        Because I'm a frikkin lawyer and most of what you have posted in the three diaries I've seen is complete horseshit.  You are quoting a non lawyer, non academic "expert" who uses legal terminology very loosely.  Example:  

        Yesterday he talked about Latches, which means that if you have been wronged, or a contract with you has been violated by the other party, you only have a specific amount of time to act on that violation. You cannot hold it over their head forever.

        Not quite correct.  What you are describing is a statute of limitations.  Laches involves a party sleeping on his/her rights by failing to act.  Similar and overlapping to a degree but not the same.  

        Another example:

        One more tidbit: Objections and as said above if you don't object it is assumed you agree. When in doubt, object. It is better to object when you don't have to rather than miss an important one. If the judge asks why, you say "I'll be pleased to brief the court." (Remember write don't blabber.) The judge may say when. You say 30 days. If he doesn't set a date you are not expected to do it. But it is on record.

        This is nonsense.  The judge is allowed to ask you to state the reason for your objection before ruling on the admissibility of a question or piece of evidence.  Offering to brief it is worthless unless the judge finds your argument interesting or expresses doubt.  Anybody who has ever tried a case would know this.

        I don't want to take apart everything said in this and the previous two diaries.  The diarist appears to be doing PR work for this seminar and I want those who read this to see my expressions of grave skepticism right below.

        BTW, your TR below was inappropariate.  This guy's theories are the legal version of chem trails.
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        •  I know I said it below, (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          byteb, YetiMonk, abbeysbooks, MajorFlaw, debedb

          but for emphasis, most of this diary scared me silly.  The thought of the average citizen (or indeed the average lawyer, because the "average" lawyer in my part of the country last saw a courtroom at his/her swearing-in to the bar) drafting property deeds and contracts for the sale of property, or representing themselves in front of a jury, is terrifying.

          More terrifying still in light of the "advice" about briefing an objection without giving the judge a basis on which to decide whether a trial ought to be interrupted to wait for your brief (unlikely to no chance at all).  And the advice about laches ("latches"), without similar advice as to a statute of limitations (which is more likely to apply).  Did he advise anyone on how to pick a jury, or prepare an opening statement, or draft and serve your notice and demand properly so that you don't "legalese" yourself out of the remedy you're looking for?  Did he advise about standards of evidence or rules of evidence or pre-trial motions?  Because that's all stuff you (general) need to know if you're going to represent yourself at trial.

          Yes, it would be great if the legal system was designed to avoid spending money for legal fees.  But it would be better still if people like the one who gave this seminar would admit that to follow their advice about courtrooms and trials would be inviting foreclosure, or bankruptcy, or having your kids taken away, or making a date with a park bench to sleep on.  

          •  Hey I'm at day 2 out of 10 n/t (0+ / 0-)

            Actually I've always done my own property sales. Made mistakes, yes. But not of the magnitude of some of the lawyers I've paid big bucks to do something.

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:53:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  On which day do they get to the part where (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              YetiMonk, debedb

              they tell you that paying income taxes is voluntary?

            •  Correction. (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              YetiMonk, MajorFlaw, debedb
              You're at day 2 out of 10 and you're already convinced that a non-lawyer can give you advice about legal matters better than someone who's studied and practiced in order to be able to advise you.

              You're at day 2 out of 10 and you're already advising other people (very irresponsibly) that this guy can fix all their legal problems.

              On the basis of (a) him giving a good talk, and (b) him having some "problem in his past" that makes him somehow qualified to advise other people to risk their own money and property after paying him $500 for the privilege of getting said questionable advice.

              I wonder, if you take his advice and things go badly wrong for you in court or wherever, can you go to him and ask him to share the burden?

              I'm also starting to wonder whether the advice the lawyers gave you was bad, or whether you just didn't like what you heard.  You sound as though you've got a chip on your shoulder the size of Missouri about lawyers.  I hope it doesn't destroy your better judgment--those can be hard to see around.

        •  Hey -- good effort (5+ / 0-)

          I admire your taking the time to actually disspell some of the gross distortions of law and courtroom procedure presented in the diary -- I was just laughing at the stuff, but you took your "officer of the court" responsibilty a little more seriously than I. Kudos to you for you have shamed me.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:37:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the details (0+ / 0-)

          Horseshit is not very professional tho.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:50:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  you notice how they pick up on patterns (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          YetiMonk, MajorFlaw

          of using legal terminology, and start calling
          things foo and bar (like, Posting and Comment,
          Diary and Blog Entry, I hereby and therewithal
          Troll Rate and Unrecommend This Posting and Diary).

    •  Some folks don't learn (6+ / 0-)

      I mean you could read just a paragraph of the diary and realize it's for nad by the tinfoil hat crowd -- Even if one didn't focus on the content, the rambling writing style ought to be a red flag that someone is off their meds (I'll probably get TRed for this, but it needs to be pointed out).

      As for the quality of the "legal" advice (I put it in quotes, because it's really illegal advice) -- the axionm that you get what you pay for never seemed more true.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:33:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know the history between you and (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw

      Abbeysbooks, but i think "this shit again" is a tr worthy way to kick off discussion.  AB seems sincere, however well informed AB is or isn't, and the diary strikes me as a good basis for discussion.  I feel I've learned a lot from reading it and then reading through the comments and reading the critiques.

      The world dearly loves a cage.

      by epppie on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 12:19:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The only history between myself and the diarist (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        debedb

        that I am aware of is on his/her previous two diaries on the same topic--which I linked to above.  I didn't see this diary as a new discussion but a continuation of the previous two.

      •  No Eppie (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MajorFlaw, debedb

        it is really not.  It is such astoundingly bad advice that it should not be repeated, lest anybody follow it.  Lawyers here, real officers of the court, keep warning people away and begging that he stop, not because we fear discussion, but because we fear real injury.

        I have had cases in which people actually bought into this garbage.  In one, as I described the other day, a person stood to get about $600 for less than a tenth of an acre of common ground in a condominium complex.  Because he followed the same fantasies as described above, massively driving up fees with these sorts of games, he was held in contempt, judgment given to the City, and his condo sold to pay tens of thousands in attorney's fees.  

        We attorneys are not just being disagreeable, we are being concerned.

        Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

        by dhonig on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:11:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ozark Apple Butter (3+ / 0-)

    Ozark Apple Butter

    7 quarts tart apples, cored and quartered
    1/2 cup white vinegar
    1/4 cup water
    2 cups white sugar
    1 cup brown sugar
    1 teaspoon cloves
    1 teaspoon nutmeg
    1 teaspoon cinnamon
    1 teaspoon allspice
    1 teaspoon salt

    Cook apples in vinegar and water over low heat until tender, run through sieve to remove skins.
    Combine with remaining ingredients and simmer five minutes.
    Pack in hot, sterile jars and seal.
    Nice with Trolls.

    •  Care to explain the TR? (0+ / 0-)

      •  Will remove, please discuss as abbey asked (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MajorFlaw
        •  See the previous diary for discussion (8+ / 0-)

          this is DANGEROUS and INCORRECT advice, being given by a non-lawyer.  This kind of advice, if followed, loses people their homes, their savings, and sometimes their freedom.  It's bad enough one guy is selling this fraudulent pitch to suckers. It is far worse when the sucker brings it here to us.

          There are a lot of lawyers here- plaintiff, defense, government, all types- and not one has anything but derision and WARNING in response to this horrible series.  

          DO NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE.  IT IS WRONG.

          Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

          by dhonig on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:10:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I might be happy to name real lawyers' names (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Tigana

            that have fucked over people. Why do you think all the jokes about lawyers are true.

            How do you know a lawyer is lying?

            Are his lips moving?

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:58:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Excuse me? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              celticshel, YetiMonk

              Several people in this and the previous threads have identified themselves as lawyers while simultaneously trying to save you from your own gullibility.  Do you really think this is appropriate:

              Why do you think all the jokes about lawyers are true.

              How do you know a lawyer is lying?

              Are his lips moving?

              •  Read my story up above (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tigana

                Just because they are lawyers doesn't mean they are any good. Some of course are but you can't find out unless you use them. And you will pay a lot to test them out.

                I have been quite guillable in the past. I'd love to have all those thousands I paid out to lawyers who accomplished nothing. Let alone the outright thieves. The one above in the past two years was caught lying to the Grand Jury about letters he had sent out accusing one of the judges of childhood porn. He ruined the judge's reputation before they found out he made them all up. Don't know why.

                His name is John Bruffet from Ava MO so google him. He's the one who had power of attorney of my bank account in the early 90's. The one who almost lost me our farm.

                Oh yes I was gullible all righty. He is known for stealing women's houses and property. But no one is going to tell a newcomer. They just want to watch you suffer like they do.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:27:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Um, (4+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  shanikka, celticshel, abbeysbooks, debedb

                  His name is John Bruffet from Ava MO so google him. He's the one who had power of attorney of my bank account in the early 90's. The one who almost lost me our farm.

                  Oh yes I was gullible all righty. He is known for stealing women's houses and property.

                  I guess your seminar didn't cover libel yet.

                  •  Sure, you just keep saying (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    debedb

                    I don't have a lawyer yet, and it goes away.

                    Amazing.

                  •  And for the record? (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    abbeysbooks, MajorFlaw, debedb

                    The attorney mentioned (name is spelled wrong above) is in good standing with the Missouri State Bar.  A simple 5-second internet search pulled that up.

                    Just so more facts are in play, what with a one-sided   statement such as the one above.

                    •  Google John Bruffet and Christopher Swatosh (0+ / 0-)

                      And you will find what I am talking about. You might throw in Ava MO. Also you can add porn or pornography to Bruffet's name. This is how I found out about it. If he is still in good standing with the bar, shows you how up to date the bar is. Or how they don't care.

                      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                      by abbeysbooks on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 08:49:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  links. (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        MajorFlaw

                        (Your former lawyer's name here) cleared of all charges, none of which had to do with stealing any woman's house or property.

                        (Your former lawyer's name AND the other lawyer's name here) were involved on the same side of a case that did not have anything to do with stealing any woman's house or property.

                        Really odd, isn't it, that this guy supposedly went around stealing all these houses and property, and clearing out bank accounts and almost losing someone their property, and that he's "well known" for doing such things, but that he never once got charged with it?  Despite the fact that he was investigated for other alleged crimes?

                        •  Thanks for the link as I don't follow the gossip (0+ / 0-)

                          carefully enough. My friend was going to tell me about it today.

                          But I will tell you that those four lawyers are all snakes. Before this I never heard anything bad against Wall. The woman and her house that I was talking about had no relation to this total mess and would not have generated a link.

                          You cannot imagine how rotten all of them are. In small towns the word gets around. I have no doubt they were cleared. But then OK was cleared too, wasn't he?

                          Does cleared mean innocent? Do you believe OJ is innocent? Do you believe....?

                          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                          by abbeysbooks on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 07:23:14 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  He's in worse than that now (0+ / 0-)

                    A certain judge was said to be into kiddie porn. Bruffet had to go before a Grand Jury where he lied and it turns out they found out he was the one doing the fake letters. To get the judge for some reason or other. But he has been doing stuff forever. I know a woman who owned the house next to my last house. She was divorced from a man but was still friendly with her ex husband. He got cancer and was dying so she gave him her house to live in as it was empty and she was living somewhere else. He died and his kids sued for the house. Her lawyer was John Bruffet. Guess who got the house.

                    FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                    by abbeysbooks on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 08:47:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Do you understand how wrong it is (1+ / 0-)

                      to defame this lawyer anonymously and without giving him the opportunity to defend himself?  I didn't think so;  it is disgusting.  I'll bet he's got some things to say about you as well.  I've never handed out a TR but I am sorely tempted to make these defamatory comments disappear.  

                    •  You really need to stop this. (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      MajorFlaw

                      Be angry at him all you want, for whatever reason you want to be.  But getting yourself in deeper legal trouble by adding libel to the mix is NOT smart.  You're letting your emotions take over your brain, and the result is NOT good.

                •  Sorry, diarist (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  MajorFlaw

                  but you're still being gullible. This time, you're swallowing the swill they're serving up in this seminar. You paid $500 bucks for this garbage?

          •  And no lawyer has ever lost someone (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Tigana, yoduuuh do or do not

            a home, their savings, and their freedom? Gimme a break. At least if I do it to myself I have no one to blame. Or pay him to do that to me.

            Jesus I had one here when I first came that damn near cost me everything. I had the sense to get my neice's husband to declare bankruptcy in Philly to save the farm we owned together. I beat the fucker who was DA here for as many terms as he was allowed and then his buddy was and then back to him. They ruled the county seat. But I beat him in Philly with a very mediocre bankruptcy lawyer.

            But I mean it was by the hair of my chinny chin chin. It was just an accident my neice in Philly saw the proposed sale of our farm in the local paper she had sent to Philly. None of us were notified where we were. And my local lawyer had access to my bank account with a power of attorney while I was away. He could have handled it.

            He handled it all right. He and the opponent lawyer were getting ready to carve up our farm between them. Saved it by a hair.

            I mean would you trust any of them after that?1022222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222214

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:20:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If he was acting unethically, (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              abbeysbooks, MajorFlaw, debedb

              and I'm absolutely not expression an opinion on that as I don't know the whole story, you have recourse.

              If, on the other hand, you take the appallingly bad advice of someone giving a seminar who's not a lawyer and lose your property yourself, you'll have nothing but regrets.

              •  Well I called him about the sale on the courthous (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tigana

                steps. From Singapore. I told him to stop it. Yes there was a very technical reason it was done but nothing intentional. No need to go into it here unless you are dying to know.

                So I told him to just call across the square to his school buddy and tell him to tell his client to just cash the two certified checks I had already sent him (which was why it was such a surprise). He said it wouldn't work. It wouldn't stop the sale. So I told him I would declare bankruptcy and the seller who was holding the mortgage and still living in his house free as a gift from us wasn't going to get any more money until the bankruptcy case was heard in Philadelphia, and they had a backlog of over a year, so it was going to be a very long poor year for poor old Henry. And when I got back I would evict him from his free perch.

                He said: Dan and I go back a long long time and he isn't going to do it.

                And I told him that if he didn't talk him into it and call me back in an hour I was going to do what I said I was going to do. And I told him when I did I wouldn't be able to say sorry, I didn't mean that, and take it all back. That it would go through. He acted like he thought I was bluffing. I wasn't. Had I filed in MO I would have lost it. But my niece's husband filed that day in Philly and poor ol Henry had a long year of no checks. And I won in Philly and no money was released to Henry until he moved off the place. He held a gun on me a couple of times as I was living in the other house when I got back. Sheriff would do nothing neither would the lawyers. So he got a few thousand dollars and no where to live so he went back to his kids in Florida. I expect he's dead now as he was in his 80's then. Was a bombadier in the Dresden bombing Vonnegut wrote about in Slaughterhouse Five. He loved destroying that city. He also went down to help that governor what's his name in Alabama in the segregation stand off.

                Gee I felt sorry for that bastard.

                So I went around town saying Wade looks pretty good around here (he is good but has no integrity)but he's just a poor lil ol fish in Philly squirming around. He wasn't licensed in Philly so he got some young dumb jerk tht didn't have a chance against a Philly bankruptcy specialist. Afterwards he had done so many crooked things he lost his license but that's another story. He did OK by us.

                My lawyer who fucked me up was John Bruffet Ava MO so go google him and see what he's done lately. Finally they got him.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 07:40:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, as linked above he was cleared of all charges (0+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  MajorFlaw

                  And honestly?  Publicizing the details of your attorney-client relationship with your attorney is really not smart.  I'm not saying you're stupid.  I'm saying you're risking a great deal for very little other than an "internet victory".  You really need to start hitting "cancel" rather than "post", before the damage is irrevocable.

                  I'm afraid (for you) of what you might choose to disclose or allege next in an attempt to win, so consider yourself to have won the internet on this issue and let it go, please.

            •  Lawyers are running our government (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              abbeysbooks

              That's one of the reasons America is in trouble. We must take a vow to stop voting for lawyers.

            •  Oi, vey! (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              abbeysbooks, MajorFlaw, debedb

              As a non-lawyer who has successfully won a case in the Virginia State Supreme Court ... and lost a lot of money, time and effort by using an incompetent attorney in a property case .... I STILL think you should pay attention to what the lawyers here are saying.

              Law is a very complicated business.  The people who study it for years still make BIG mistakes.  The people who attend 10-day seminars come out thinking that they know a lot more than they know ... and knowing just enough to get themselves in REAL trouble.

              An intelligent person can write contracts and take cases to court pro se and succeed.  This doesn't mean that everyone should risk it.  Just like other professions, an amateur can do a damned good job by putting in ten times as much effort as a professional would need or choose to.  But an amateur can also make stupid, ignorant mistakes that cost them lots of time, money, or even their freedom.  Every case is different, and every case requires an individual risk-assessment.

              I hired a lawyer to do my divorce.  Because I came in with all my paperwork and the division of property already negotiated, it cost me half or less than it might have if she'd had to do more work.  But it was worth the money, to have an expert look everything over and draw up the final documents.  I know enough about the law to choose a good attorney and do my homework for them.  I still wouldn't risk my life or significant property on my own efforts short of desperation.

              •  Thanks. I am being watchful (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tigana, debedb

                And I am not going to jump in a pot of stew I can't get out of. I'll start slowly because I really have a lot to clean up. And it looks like it may be possible to get some back. I had long ago decided to forget about those pieces. But maybe I don't have to. We will see.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 08:13:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Love your images (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tigana, yoduuuh do or do not

      and the food too.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 09:56:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't help but say this. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    elmo, abbeysbooks, MajorFlaw, debedb

    This is not legal advice, but it's good common-sense advice.  It also uses "you" in the general sense, not the you-specifically sense.

    One of the biggest mistakes people make in dealing with real property or with large amounts of money is representing themselves.  A trial by jury in which you represent yourself holds the potential for disaster.  So does any legal proceeding (whether in a courtroom or not) dealing with real property and/or large amounts of money and/or Really Important Matters.  That goes for lawyers as well as non-lawyers.

    Of course people don't have to hire lawyers.  In my opinion though (and I'm a lawyer, and I work with dozens of lawyers), suggesting at trial that you'd brief the court within a month on an objection you're making at the trial?  In most cases it's just going to piss off the judge, make the jury roll their eyes at you, and probably lose you the case.  It's wasting the court's time, the jury's time, and the opponent's time.  

    If there's one thing most judges and juries really hate, it's having their time wasted.   And an objection to testimony being given in front of a jury (or a judge) just isn't going to wait days or weeks for you to come up with an objection.  The judge isn't going to let you subpoena the witness multiple times so you can come up with a basis for your objection.  If you don't have a basis for one at the trial, you're not going to recognise the objections you should make until it's all over.

    hen you go to trial as your own lawyer, you're going to be held to a standard even a lawyer can't meet.  That's why even lawyers are usually choosing wrong if they choose to represent themselves.  Any legal seminar that suggests representing yourself anywhere but small-claims court (and there after a great deal of research) is a seminar that could cause you a lot more problems than it solves.  

    •  Well since I've been doing it (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tigana

      things have improved. You can't even imagine the lousy lawyers here in the Ozarks. And the corruptness of them. And the collusion. So and so's wife is sleeping with another lawyer. Really it's beyond awful. You cannot even think of trusting one enough to hire them.

      And the way they steal property is so real here. They will lawyer you to death financially and then take your property themselves.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:04:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I will say that Philly lawyers can be very good (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tigana

      At least there are enough people there that you can get suggestions for a good one.

      I had Marino for criminal once. He was no more expensive than another jerk I interviewed. Marino was known as a Mafia lawyer and he was dead eye good. Watching him in action was a pleasure. He was the one in Philly picked to give you TV news on the OJ trial every day.

      But for every good one I had more than enough lousy ones. I've even had good ones who lost. At least if I lose I'm just out time which I would have spent with counsel anyway. If I had had one here they would never have gone to court so many times without charging a fortune.

      I've had them lose me properties, mess up litigation. Not show up when they were supposed to. One in Colorado lost me an acre worth 40K. He was unbelievable and suggested by the recorder of deeds. I think he was the worst of a bunch of losers.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:10:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Abbeysbooks, I think what you are learning (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        abbeysbooks

        Abbeysbooks, I think what you are telling us - is how to stop corrupt lawyers in a rotten system from getting an unfair advantage over people. That's worth a lot. I look forward to your next entry.

        •  You'd better believe it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Tigana

          And today was a revelation of just how powerful we can be. If we know our rights and understand and can use the tools we have. Lawyers are not in it for the same reasons. This is a passion. Did you ever hear of guerillalawyers?

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 07:13:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Guerillalawyers? Do tell! (0+ / 0-)

            :)

            •  Guerillalaw came to the aid of Haynes. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Tigana

              In Haynes vs Turner number 404US519 a very interesting case. Haynes was a prisoner who pleaded pro se. A faraway judge was appointed. Faraway means a judge not involved in political activities, usually an older judge who is disgruntled with the system, in a petition for the Supreme Court Arthur Goldberg took the case, a retired former chief justice of the SC. Not too shabby. His decision: The pleading of a pro se litigant may not be dismissed if there are any facts in the complaint that provide relief. The pleadings of a pro se litigant are to be considered liberally. So if a judge gets angry at you and says he is going to hold you to professional standards you file a Bill Quia Timet and quote Haynes vs Turner which contradicts the judge's statement and you stick that in the established jurisdiction of the court.

              Nice eh?

              FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

              by abbeysbooks on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 11:06:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Is this it, Abbeysbooks? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                abbeysbooks
                •  Very nice, you are good (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Tigana

                  they put him in solitary for I forget how long. Nothing to sleep on, a cement floor, no blanket. Torture US style.

                  Z mentioned it today as one we should remember and use if necessary. When you go to court pro se you infuriate them. You can tell by how angry the legal types here get just talking about it. They don't seem to be upset with the internet sites advocating this like halt.com and guerillalaw etc. It's as if they are in denial about this movement.

                  Marx talks about lawyer capitalism. The lawyers, prosecutors, judges are not your friends. They will take away everything you have. Z goes after them aggressively. I guess when they cause the death of your wife and your son is murdered you feel you have nothing left to lose, as Dylan says:freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

                  FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                  by abbeysbooks on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 11:38:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks for sending the perso to me about her (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Tigana

                  house. I gave her a number of possibilities.

                  FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                  by abbeysbooks on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 11:39:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  .02 adjusted for inflation (3+ / 0-)

    abbey is taking a seminar. Whether the information is good, bad or indifferent, she's telling us about it.

    Take note: nothing I hear from her is going to encourage me to be my own lawyer without going to law school first. What it will do is give me a basis to ask questions. It's hard to ask questions if you don't know something exists.

    Things she mentions make me think. I appreciate people who give me something (anything) that makes me think.

    If the lawyers here want to write diaries to discuss the finer points of law - I think it would be wonderful. I'll show up for those, too.

    If I took classes on surgical procedures and decided to write about it - I truly hope no one would be encouraged to practice surgery without going to med school first.

    Not exactly the same - but I think you get my point.

    Going to real estate seminars don't make you a realtor, going to law seminars don't make you a lawyer; even going to sales seminars won't make you a salesman. But going to any one of those will give you some information that can help you make better informed choices.

    Seriously, if she's getting something wrong or not in its entirety, don't attack; inform.

    I'm the person your mother warned you about.

    by Unique Material on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:26:29 PM PDT

    •  Thank you emotionally mature Unique Material (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tigana

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:29:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe that many of us have been informing; (5+ / 0-)

      it's just not what the diarist is looking for.  I understand your point about listening to other information but in this context it is equivalent to insisting on teaching creationism alonside evolution.  The guy teaching this seminar is not a member of the reality based community and this "information" is utter fantasy.  

    •  You're right. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dhonig, YetiMonk, MajorFlaw, debedb

      However, this is one in a series of diaries whose collective point of view is "hey, this guy can solve my problems," and the comments in the others have tended toward "can you get me his name" and "this is why the no-lawyer way is better".

      I guess it hits a button with me.  I see people every week whose financial lives were destroyed, or whose criminal records are arms-lengths long, because they thought they could do it themselves.  I'm related to at least one of them.  

      Do-it-yourselfing is IMO for painting and lawn and garden work.  It might get messy, but you're probably not going to get too hurt.  Anything more complicated deserves an expert--the risk of injury is just too great.

    •  Respectfully disagree (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw, debedb

      with the idea that the diarist is not giving advice:

      Here's what you do: You state your name and spell it, "and I wish to state for the record that in this courtroom today my every utterance shall be true and made under pain and penalty of perjury."

      Your analogy would be more apt if you said somebody took a seminar in surgery, then told people how to remove their own appendix, and they passed it along to us as advice.

      Several different questions would arise.  First, why is a non-doctor giving such advice?  Second, why is anybody suggesting to people that they can do surgery?  Third, should anybody pass that advice along?

      You see, we attorneys have actually seen the results of seminars, and diaries, like this, and they are ugly. I described on above.  We are not trying to silence people, but to protect them.

      Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

      by dhonig on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:16:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw, debedb

      The diarist is giving legal advice, without a license:  she is reported techniques she allegedly either used personally, or heard others using, that she believes (falsely) is grounded in actual law, and is encouraging people to follow them.  The practice of law is the giving of just such advice.  You do not need to cite statutes or cases to be "practicing law" (even though in this case, the OP has done both, repeatedly) - all that is necessary is to be advising others based on your judgment about the law about their particular circumstances.  

      I suspect most state AGs would take these diaries none too lightly.  Since this OP has no license.

      BTW has anyone determined whether this Zimmerman character has a license?  The OP has just been had, but he is outright dangerous.  IMO.

      •  Well, Good. People Have Responded (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Tigana

        Politely and with facts; that's a good thing.

        If indeed the seminar giver is giving bad advice, the OP (and the rest of us) would like to know this.

        I also tell people repeatedly - it's not just what you say,  how you say it also matters.

        Hooray, for clarification.

        I'm the person your mother warned you about.

        by Unique Material on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 07:23:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I haven't had a lot of experience with laywers, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tigana, yoduuuh do or do not

    so I presume that they are, as in all professions, highly variable.  The one's I've experienced haven't impressed me.  The one I experienced most recently had to be constantly pushed to do things, had to be pushed to ask for a sufficient amount of money in the settlement, fell asleep in court, ran through all the money set aside for him with minimal results, yet even so, I have to admit that he did better than I would have done, if only because he wasn't emotionally involved.

    The world dearly loves a cage.

    by epppie on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 12:15:58 AM PDT

  •  dude, once you start mentioning 'fiat money' (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dhonig, celticshel, YetiMonk

    you're deep in wingnut la-la-land...

    •  what else do you call it? (0+ / 0-)

      It's economics 101.

      Got Left off the Blogroll so I'll Pimp it Here NorthCoastOre