Real ID – Updated

More states are joining the Real ID revolt.  This past week, Montana and North Dakota joined Washington, Arkansas, Idaho and Maine in rejecting Bush’s federal government in pursuing and requiring a national ID card masquerading as a standardized driver’s license. Twenty other states are also considering a similar response.

I previously diaried this topic (where there are additional links) but there is an important addition regarding public comments, below.

Unless this law is stopped, a Real ID will be required to fly on commercial aircraft, enter federal buildings and a growing list of other freedoms.  The cards will also have a machine-readable component, allowing retailers, airline personnel and others to gain access to your personal information...perhaps all of your personal information.  As there are no assurances that the new card can't be counterfeited, this is a identity-thief’s wet dream.

The $23B unfunded cost of the program is anticipated to fall on the backs of the people, boosting the cost of an average driver’s license to $100.  It will surely cause all hell to break loose at the typical DMV.

Most impacted by this law will be the poor, senior citizens, native Americans, victims of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, naturalized citizens, victims of domestic violence, immigrants, people who live in RV’s and homeless people.  Unless you go knocking on the doors of all the RV’s, I don’t think you’re going to find many Republicans in this group.  To quote Chico Marx, "Wadda coincidence!"

And for what?  More security?  Hah!  Try less privacy, more spying and more identity theft. Remember, it was the Bush Administration that conceived of this plan and will have access to all information.

The Department of Homeland Security is now accepting public comments as required by law. The ACLU has set up a website to assist you in making your feelings known.  Members of Congress are likely to pay close attention to the number and viewpoint of comments submitted by the public.  By voicing your opinion today, you can make it clear to Congress and the Department of Homeland Security that ordinary Americans oppose this costly, intrusive and meaningless program.

Want a real link?  Watch and listen to this career, Chicago firefighter who got caught in the boondoggle of inaccurate data as Illinois attempted to implement parts of the federal law.

As usual, a tip of the cap goes to the ACLU for keeping up the pressure to preserve our constitutional rights.

•  Have I got a tip for you!

  Join the ACLU and carry your card proudly!

  by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:12:25 PM PDT

  •  I have, and I do

    And I also contribute to the ACLU every month.

    Sadly, Dubya has been the best recruiter in the history of the ACLU.

    by N in Seattle on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:27:55 PM PDT

    •  Heh!

      I do a lot of fund-raising for them and, coincidentally, we had a phone-banking effort on the night the Patriot Act was signed.

      It was like shooting fish in a barrel...

      by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:29:55 PM PDT

•  Calling all Northern Californians

  heck, any Californians or other interested parties:
  Department of Homeland Security is sponsoring a hearing that will be conducted by the CA state DMV on May 1, Tuesday, at UC-Davis in Freeborn Hall. According to the Davis Enterprise: it will be

  the nation's only open meeting on REAL ID, which sets national standards for driver's licenses and identification cards. It is being run by the state Department of Motor Vehicles at the Department of Homeland Security's request....
  ....California DMV has raised numerous questions about the proposed regulations, which can be found at DMV-CA Press Release and  About REAL ID from DMV-CA.  Additional information on the REAL ID Act can be found on the Department of Homeland Security Web site (Docket ID number: DHS-2006-0030-0001).

  by fumie on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:33:09 PM PDT

  •  and No

    I am NOT in favor of this awful scheme. I'm with John Tester, who said while running for the U.S. Senate:

    I don't want to weaken the Patriot Act—I want to repeal it.

    This is one piece of legislation I'd like thrown out.

    by fumie on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:47:41 PM PDT

  •  Thank you! I will post it to the...

    ... SF Kossacks list, which covers a big part of Northern CA.

    by highacidity on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:54:25 PM PDT

  •  Don't you mean

    this is sponsored by the state?

    These laws are being forced on the states and the decisions are being made locally (by state).

    This is Californians' chance to demand that their state join the list of states who reject this law, in an effort to cripple the federal effort.

    Or am I missing something?

    by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:28:17 PM PDT

    •  OK. I just saw the fine print...

      It's just the fed's request.  But it's an important distinction, nonetheless.

      by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:30:39 PM PDT

•  If the Real ID act is flawed,

  then let's fix it, correct some of the inadequacies noted above.  However, I see nothing wrong with trying to have a form of national ID, and using driver's licenses is the logical way to do that.  I have a drivers license, credit cards, pay taxes, etc.  If the gov't wants to find me, it's real easy.  So I'm not getting the objection to an id system.

  by sandbox on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:53:31 PM PDT

  •  Show me your papers.

    What, you aren't carrying your ID?  We'll have to detain you while me make sure you aren't a terrorist.

    by Feanor on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:56:32 PM PDT

    •  So there is nothing we can do?

      We have to allow anyone to come into the country and can't ask for ID of any sort.  BYW, I am not against a guest worker visa program.

      by sandbox on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:05:02 PM PDT

      •  What are you talking about?

        We have to allow anyone to come into the country and can't ask for ID of any sort.

        Did I say anything about 'having to allow anyone to come into the country'?  No.

        Employers certainly should be required - as they are now, although enforcement is too lax - to see proof of citizenship or residency when hiring employees.

        by Feanor on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:17:13 PM PDT

      •  This reminds me of the WWII movies

        of occupied France.  The Nazis walk in and say, "Everyone!  Your papers, please."

        The law might have changed (certainly attitudes have) but I remember a time when you didn’t have to prove your identity, even if it was demanded by police.  (If you were driving, you had to produce a driver’s license.)  

        In fact, unless you were being detained, you didn’t even have to acknowledge a police officer’s questioning – you could simply walk away.

        Our police state needs no further encouragement.  Nor do the neocons.  Let’s preserve what’s left of our privacy and work to reverse our recent, constitutional losses to the executive branch.

        by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:50:19 PM PDT

      •  So, what's a Passport?

        Chopped liver? :/ :p If you are concerned about people entering this country, I thought the U.S. government already requests foreign visitors to show passports when entering the U.S. (Well, at least until recently we could cross the Canadian border without any, but that has changed.)

        I object to being REQUIRED to have a form of ID on me. Not to mention the fact that if we are so unfortunate as to have an unscrupulous, dictatorial government in place that would use our private information for nefarious purposes... oh, wait, we already have one in this current government... :(  

        by fumie on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:52:32 PM PDT

        •  Question: Does the Real ID act require that

          you always have to have ID with you when you go out in public and/or does it just say what constitutes and ID.  If is is just the later, then I can't see the objection.

          by sandbox on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:01:27 PM PDT

          •  You are standing on a slippery slope

            what will you grab onto?

            by Feanor on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:02:27 PM PDT

          •  Answer your own question

            How will it be enforceable if not carried at all times?

            If the Real ID act becomes law, what will be their next step?  Next steps?

            by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:11:32 PM PDT

            •  Answer: It will be enforceble upon request,

              For example, when I fly domestic airline, I am asked for ID, which means driver's license photo ID.  So doesn't it make sense to know that all the other folks getting on the flight are presenting photo ID driver's licenses that are less likely to be phony.?

              From what I am reading, the police still have to have justification for asking for your ID, as is now the case.  But under the real ID, when the authorities do ask (justifiably) for your ID, there is now a better chance that the ID won't be phony.  

              by sandbox on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:20:56 PM PDT

              •  That's at the airport

                And we have plenty of ID security!

                How about the guy on the street with a backpack?  The guy in the back of a truck full of...stuff?

                How about when they come to your door and demand ID?

                There is nothing in this law that insures valid Real ID's.  

                From what I am reading, the police still have to have justification for asking for your ID, as is now the case.  But under the real ID, when the authorities do ask (justifiably) for your ID, there is now a better chance that the ID won't be phony.  

                They are subject to counterfeiting as any other form of identification.  And there is a treasure-trove to be gained by the thief.  

                Why don't you read the complete diary and comments and inveastigate the links?  I'm rewriting the facts of the diary for each of your obtuse objections.

                by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:13:36 PM PDT

      •  I am AGAINST a guest worker program and Real ID!

        Both concepts really suck and will damage our society,  One by compromising a mans right to their labor and ability to make a living (or is he massive exportation of production to our overseas "guest workers" lost on you?);  the other compromises our freedoms even more in an age where there is almost no privacy as it is!

        The other BIG point is it originated from Bush and the Repuglicans.  Ergo, it is poison and shit and should be resisted by all means available, get it?!

        by FightTheFuture on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:55:00 PM PDT

        •  I was under the impression that the reason

          animating those who oppose the real ID law is that they don't want the immigration laws enforced.  Apparently you are the exception.

          by sandbox on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:12:35 PM PDT

          •  Real ID is much bigger than that

            Please read the diary, links and comments.

            I'm unclear on FTF's specific points because of some typos.  I'm also unclear on the points of the Guest Worker Program.  (His point on "massive exportation...overseas" is well-taken, however.)

            Obviously, if Bush is in favor of such a program, it must be bad.  Really bad.  Secondly, it requires illegal aliens to register for the program and it is of finite length (3 years?).  And when it's over, the federal government knows exactly where these illegals are.  So, you know what I'm (and the aliens are) thinking.  So, would you sign up?

            So, IMO, a Guest Worker Program is unworkable on many levels.  Just this year's hysteria over the border caused millions of dollars of fruit to rot on the vine in California because there was no one to pick it.  You think American citizens would work that hard?

            If the U.S. wants to halt immigration totally, fine.  Let's start from that point.  But let's not discriminate based on country of origin, color, religion, education level, etc.  And let's also not discriminate against them because of their current country of residence and legal status.  We know where that will get us with this bunch of Administration crooks...xenophobia and work-discrimination against our own people.

            by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:53:08 PM PDT

            •  People will work if paid failrly to do the work!

              That's the problem, really.  When an someone says, "These are jobs no American would want or do".  What they purposefully or foolishly neglect to add is "at the price I am willing to pay"!

              People cannot live on 3rd world wages in a industrialized society with a higher cost and standard of living.  

              Also, this is not about legal immigration.  it is about illegal immigration.  It is also about the abusive H1B/L1B Visas at the more skilled levels.  The exportation of every job imaginable to societies with much cheaper costs and free university education (e.g. India).  Societies that also allow the externalization of expenses (e.g. pollutions, no regulations) and the internalization of profits at a much easier degree.  

              This country cannot compete with crap like that!!

              BTW, what typo obscured what I was saying?  I missed a "t" and had "he" instead of "the" but... really.

              by FightTheFuture on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:06:59 PM PDT

              •  And "paid fairly" has a lot of latitude

                in the illegal-alien world.  

                To think that these men and women can be severely underpaid for their work, denied benefits, in constant fear of the law and still send money home to their families is beyond my belief.  Surely, this country has a need for such hard-working people.

                Seal the borders?  Sure.  End all immigration.  Fine.  But let's be realistic about the 12 million illegals who live here, obey the laws and contribute to the land they live in and belive in.  They would love nothing more than to become Americans.

                by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:38:49 PM PDT

                •  Stop being an idiot about this already!

                  To think that these men and women can be severely underpaid for their work, denied benefits, in constant fear of the law and still send money home to their families is beyond my belief.  Surely, this country has a need for such hard-working people.

                  You mean this country's illegal employers has a need for such an easily and inhumanely exploited pool of cheap labor kept in squalid conditions to maximize profits at the expense of local labor and the communities dependent upon it?!  I have no problem with people who come here legally to become citizens, as it has ALWAYS been done!!  Labor works by market forces--when there is too much of it vs. demand, the wage (price) offered goes down!

                  Try to get a fucking clue already!

                  Seal the borders?  Sure.  End all immigration.  Fine.

                  What about word ILLEGAL immigration that you CANNOT seem to fucking comprehend.  Stop being disingenuous!  

                  But let's be realistic about the 12 million illegals who live here, obey the laws and contribute to the land they live in and belive in.

                   

                  That's quite the violin you have going, not to mention the contradiction about obeying the laws considering they are here ILLEGALLY!!  Duh!!  I am being realistic, BTW.  They must go back and fix their own shithole country and stop inadvertently contributing to making ours the same--a lawless land where the strong prey upon the weak!

                  They would love nothing more than to become Americans.

                  Good, then apply for it like the half million other people that immigrate here legally (there's that word again) every year!  Frankly, instead of yearning to become American (whatever the fuck that means today, after 6 years of Bush), perhaps they should make their homeland something to be proud to live within.  If it can be done peacefully, great.  If it means spilling some blood, then so be it.  we did it, every country with a better set of laws on individual freedoms has done it.  You HAVE to do it sometimes or you will always be someones bitch.  

                  You might find your misguided concerns about the poor exploited illegals better applied to enforcing our employer laws here.  Also, how we deal with countries south of the border that allow shitty regimes to survive and flourish by exploiting their people and counties for the benefit of the few on either side of the border.  I suggest you go an read John Perkins' book Confessions of an Economic Hitman to get a truer flavor of what is driving these problems South of the border (notice Canada does not seem to be part of this problem).

                  You miss the forest for the tress here, badly!  However, don't feel bad, a lot of people are suckered on this and cannot seem to connect the dots to remove the factors that create the obvious problem in the first place!

                  by FightTheFuture on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 01:53:51 AM PDT

                  •  When you sober up

                    You might consider that I was talking about allowing these 12 million illegal immigrants to become legal American citizens.  Now, doesn’t that answer all parts of your angry, tortuous diatribe?

                    by john07801 on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 05:53:05 AM PDT

                    •  No, it doesn't and the "why" you cannot explain!

                      Because they work hard?  

                      If they work so hard, they should work to fix their fucking "democracy", like they almost did.  Imagine if those 12 million were there in that last election.  The more progressive Lopex Obrador may well have won a commanding majority even with their vote fraud!

                      BTW, People work hard all over with increasingly depressed wages because of them here creating an overabundance in labor at lower levels, just as more dubiously legal H1B/L1B and exportation of skilled jobs does!  It's Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages which basically says wages "naturally" tended towards a minimum level corresponding to the subsistence needs of the workers.  In other words, when labor is plentiful,  wages are cheap--subsistence level!

                      When Reagan granted Amnesty all it did was further erode unions (one of his successful schemes) and depress wages in those areas.

                      I'm quite sober on this, perhaps it is you who needs to you sober up!.  Pull the bottle out of your ass and try to explain why you think they should be here.  All your soft-headed bleeding heart bullshit explanations so far haven't convinced me one wit.

                      by FightTheFuture on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 06:22:52 AM PDT

          •  No, I am not the exception, you are misguided!

            Real ID will not solve the illegal immigrant problem.  All it will do is open up a new venue for abuse and fraudulent cards, or hasn't credit fraud taught you anything!  It's not like it's at the point of GATTACA with DNA-to-ID checking on the spot.  Even then, there were ways of fixing the result.

            Illegal immigration problems will be solved by addressing the illegal employer problem.  Crack down heavily on employers who hire illegals.  Sure, maybe a free pass for the first offense on a small scale employer, but that's it!  Next time, CEO's, owners to jail.  Fines that bite into profits, or shut down the company.   You will see the problem disappear overnight.

            I am for giving them bus ticket back and a some money for food.  That's it!!  Longer established families with older children (say past kindergarten) who are here, maybe work out something.  Otherwise, adios, the kid can come back when they are of an age to choose as they would be eligible as citizens (unless that law is changed).

            Try to understand, not all liberals are for a massive amnesty.  The only asshat that actually did that was Reagan (in '87? - 2.7 million), and it didn't really help, now did it!?  I want them to go back home and fix their shithole of a country!  Fix the reason they left in the first place.  Yeah, I'm speaking to Mexico, an Oligarchy ruled by 39 families, basically, but it applies anywhere that is not refugee status.  If they really want to come here, go apply!  

            Like cells with cell walls, animals with skin,  countries have borders for a reason.  Without them, you will not survive long!  

            by FightTheFuture on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 04:56:11 PM PDT

  •  My biggest issue...

    ... is that so much info will be accessible from one place/card, which will be designed and administered by a department that does not have my confidence.

    Then there are the concerns about privacy rights in general. But my real-world objection is what I said above.

    by highacidity on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:03:40 PM PDT

  •  You made a similar comment in my last diary.

    It didn’t fly then, either.

    It’s not a question of the government not being able to find you (or me).  It’s a question of the abuse of power which is inherent to governments in general and Republican governments in particular.  

    Plus there is the pandemic of government screw-ups which complicate everyone’s lives.  

    Plus there is the potential for hacking the perfect system and producing a nightmare scenario of compromised information.  

    Plus, this is an overt effort to frustrate the lives of those least able to deal with bureaucracy (and who likely vote with Democrats).

    Plus the law provides nothing of benefit for me (or you, if you’re really paying attention).  Do you get me sweetheart?

    by john07801 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 03:41:13 PM PDT