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Action Diary! Your help needed RIGHT NOW to stop torture

Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 09:43:37 PM PDT

Politics is about timing and tactics. By a unique confluence of events, and the way the CIA and military organized their methods of interrogation, a serious weakness in their ability to conduct torture has been discovered. If we strike now -- with letters, faxes, emails, etc. -- we can put a great deal of pressure on a particular vulnerable group who has the ability to greatly hamper the ability of the U.S. government to torture.

When the government researched coercive interrogation in the 1950s and 1960s, they put a great deal of emphasis on the psychological means of understanding human beings, and then using this knowledge to break human beings down. Now, psychologists at the American Psychological Association are trying to stop members from participating in this criminal process, just as members of other health organizations have so prohibited their members.

The psychologists are fighting what seems like a losing battle. But the struggle isn't finished. It is time to reach out to the public to exert their influence on the insular APA leadership. What follows is a brief description of the situation, followed by a direct action call for messages to be sent to key figures at APA.

A Moratorium Against Psychologist Participation in Torture
Stephen Soldz has a good diary up right now that explains how the American Psychological Association is trying to deep-six a resolution that calls for a moratorium on psychologist participation in torture interrogations at places like Guantanamo Bay prison.

One year ago (!), Neil Altman, an APA psychologist, presented a resolution that was non-binding, but called for APA to take a stand against psychologist participation in foreign intelligence interrogations, after the passing of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 made clear that cruel and unusual methods of interrogation, if not outright torture, would be allowed, and that Bush would decide what met Geneva treaty norms and what didn't.

APA leadership could have fast-tracked this resolution, but they sunk it under a thousand tons of bureaucratic verbiage and the full weight of the serpentine process that is approval of a proposal at APA. Here's a snippet of the response to Dr. Altman's resolution by the Ethics Chair of APA, Dr. Stephen Behnke, dated 11/1/06:

In reviewing the item, the Ethics Committee had several points of observation that it offers for your consideration and on which it requests your feedback.

First, the Committee noted the phrase "U.S. detention centers." The Committee was uncertain as to the intended scope of this term, which interpreted broadly could include
any facility where individuals are detained, for example psychiatric hospitals, jails and prisons, or INS centers....

Second, the Committee noted the term "foreign detainees" and was unclear what group of individuals you wished to identify. Do you, for example, mean individuals who are not
citizens of the United States?

Uh, well, what's the definition of a "detention center"? What's a "foreign detainee"? -- Behnke and the APA leadership seek to bury the resolution the way a high priced lawyer destroys a poor litigant by filing multiple motions. They would make a simple statement of honest integrity, a statement easily made, for instance by the American Psychiatric Association and the American Medical Association, into a case as dense and eternal as Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce.

We have been through all this before with APA. Avila wrote a great diary back in 2006 explaining how APA reversed an earlier stand on torture to make their membership available for Guantanamo and similary interrogations. I followed up with an explanation of how phony legal arguments inserted into an anti-torture resolution at an APA conference rescued the use of torture for the CIA and Pentagon.

According to the U.S. Declaration to the UN Convention on Torture, psychological harm or suffering is defined as NOT COMING from psychological forms of torture. -- Of course, it doesn't SAY this outright, but that's what IT'S MEANT to allow, by art of legal definition.

I don't want to rehash the entire controversy here. Suffice it to say -- and please go read more, following the links -- both the U.S. government and the American Psychogical Association leadership have consprired to keep the legal and organizational justifications in place to allow psychological forms of torture to continue.

By psychological torture, I mean sensory deprivation and sensory overload, sleep deprivation, isolation, manipulation of time and temperature, inducement of phobic fears and humiliation, forced stress positioning, and the propagation of psychological futility. There is a wealth of evidence that shows such techniques break down the nervous constitution of human beings, inducing psychosis and long-term psychological damage, primarily PTSD.

The Strategic Place of Mental Health Professionals in CIA-style Torture

When the American Psychiatric Association saw fit to forbid its members from participating in Bush's torture interrogations, the Pentagon made it clear it would turn elsewhere -- and by that, they meant psychologists!

Of course, the American Psychological Association was quick to not that its psychiatric sister organization was not proposing a total moratorium, allowing "training to military or civilian investigative or law enforcement personnel... on the possible medical and psychological effects of particular techniques and conditions of interrogation".

That wasn't good enough for the Pentagon, who announced on June 7, 2006:

Pentagon officials said Tuesday that they would try to use only psychologists, and not psychiatrists, to help interrogators devise strategies to get information from detainees at places like Guantánamo Bay, Cuba....

Dr. William Winkenwerder Jr., assistant secretary of defense for health affairs, told reporters that the new policy favoring the use of psychologists over psychiatrists was a recognition of differing positions taken by their respective professional groups.

(Yes, this is the same Winkenwerder who had to resign over the Walter Reed scandal.)

As far back as 1963, in the text of its infamous KUBARK counterintelligence interrogation manual, the CIA made clear its need for psychological expertise in interrogations. What follows is from the CIA's "Interrogator's Check List":

The questions that follow are intended as reminders for the interrogator and his superiors....

  1. Does the interrogators selected for the task meet the four criteria of (a) adequate training and experience, (b) genuine familiarity with the language to be used, (c) knowledge of the geographical/cultural area concerned, and (d) psychological comprehension of the interrogatee?
  1. Has the prospective interrogatee been screened? What are his major psychological characteristics? Does he belong to one of the nine major categories listed in pp. 19-28? Which?...
  1. Is solitary confinement to be used? Why? Does the place of confinement permit the practical elimination of sensory stimuli?...
  1. If hypnosis or drugs are thought necessary, has Headquarters been given enough advance notice? Has adequate allowance been made for travel time and other preliminaries?
  1. Is the interrogatee suspected of malingering? If the interrogator is uncertain, are the services of an expert available?

By the early 21st century, the use of psychological personnel was bureaucratically soldified via the formation of Behavioral Consultant Teams or BSCTs ("biscuits"). As described by Arthur Levine at Washington Monthly:

[Guantanamo Commander] Major General Geoffrey Miller believed strongly in breaking detainees down, and that psychologists were crucial to this effort. (Miller would later be dispatched to Abu Ghraib to "Gitmo-ize" the prison by giving advice on detainee treatment, where, according to one general, he told subordinates that detainees should be "treated like dogs.")

Miller approved the creation of Behavioral Science Consultation Teams (BSCTs), which would include psychologists and other medical professionals. In theory, these "biscuit teams" would advise interrogators on how to develop a rapport with detainees, but in practice, things were less Dale Carnegie-esque. When one army psychologist and APA member helped interrogate Mohammed al-Khatani, the supposed "20th hijacker," some of the techniques used included stripping Khatani naked, giving him intravenous fluids to force him to urinate on himself, exercising him to exhaustion, and making him roll over and perform other dog tricks. The interrogation log includes such psychological observations as "detainee seemed too comfortable."

Anti-torture Psychologists Need Our Help!

Very few psychologists I speak to think they can really get the APA to back down from their pro-government position. And they may be right, if the fight is limited to only a dispute within APA!

We need to broaden this struggle. The blogosphere has responded to other crises with letters, faxes, phone calls and other forms of legitimate political protest when the issue has called for it.

It is time to bring the struggle against torture to the leadership of the APA. They must hear the voices of the society as a whole, shouting NO to torture, and NO to psychologist participation in coercive interrogations.

Here's How

Write or call the APA:

American Psychological Association
750 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20002-4242
(800) 374-2721
(202) 336-5500

Write and call, now. Let them know how upset you are.

Send an email to the Public Affairs Office of the APA, expressing your outrage:

public.affairs@apa.org

Phone the Ethics Office directly at (202) 336-5930 or use APA's toll free number (800) 374-2721, extension 5930, and give them a piece of your mind.

And finally, write to the President of the APA, Dr. Sharon Stephens Brehm. Be nice, be polite, but be firm (this is true for ALL communications).

Dr. Brehm has a web page, Ask the President. Follow the link to leave an email message directly for her.

If we apply enough pressure, it might make the APA stand up and take notice. If you are a Daily Kos diarist or front pager, you might want to help and make this fight yours, too. And, don't forget to write your congressman/congresswoman and senator, too!

WE CAN DO IT!

We don't have to be powerless. We aren't helpless. Write, call, email today. Copy this diary's URL and send it to your friends.

I want to see APA inundated with thousands of messages saying "Stop torture. Stop psychologist participation in coercive interrogations. Support Dr. Altman's moratorium".

Together, we can prevail.

Tags: torture, American Psychological Association, CIA, KUBARK, Guantanamo, action (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 32 comments

  •  We can do this (13+ / 0-)

    YOU can do this. We need to publicize and act.

    The U.S. government needs its mental health professionals to conduct their style of psychological torture.

    We're going to take that away from them.

    We're going to make it next to impossible for them to torture.

    Let's do it.

    War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

    by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 09:36:49 PM PDT

    •  There's even an 800 number (8+ / 0-)

      American Psychological Association
      750 First Street, NE
      Washington, DC 20002-4242
      (800) 374-2721
      (202) 336-5500

      Ethics Office: extension 5930

      I will call tommorrow.

      The Kos community has demonstrated numerous times that we can make a difference if we take action en masse - why not take a few minutes to end torture?

      I will call first thing tommorow morning.

      Valtin,

      Thanks for giving me something simple & constructive that I can do.

      `````
      peace

    •  is there a Bush appointed stooge in there (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Valtin, pico, kraant, madgranny, Chacounne

      somewhere ???  It sounds like a case of a person or group of people behaving unethically.

      I understand politics are not supposed to be involved, and I heard about the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus too.

      Who needs to be outed to the world and made an example of?

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:02:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  oh, you mean larry james? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kraant, Chacounne
    •  Yes... among others (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pico, kraant, Chacounne

      [PENS] Task force member Col. Larry James was the chief psychologist for the intelligence group at Guantánamo in 2003. In 2004, James was at Abu Ghraib working as the director of the behavioral sciences group in the interrogation unit there. His biography said he was sent to Abu Ghraib "in response" to the abuse scandal. Requests to interview James were rebuffed; U.S. Army Medical Command spokeswoman Cynthia Vaughn referred Salon back to the APA.

      Salon.com link

      PENS was the APA Presidential Task Force on Psychological Ethics and National Security, which was supposed to investigate and recommend on psychologist participation in Bush's "war on terror" interrogations. The APA leadership heavily stacked the PENS task force with military personnel, i.e., 6 of the 10 members were military, including major participants in shaping Bush's torture interrogations. Read the full story in the link above.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 09:57:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know his official position, (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Valtin, pico, kraant

      but Larry James plays a major role in the APA. When a colleague was invited to an APA governance committee to discuss the issue, and mentioned known BSCT psychologist Mj. John Leso, who participated in one of the most notorious Guantanamo interrogations, James went ballistic and started screaming at the colleague. No one at APA thought this odd.

  •  There was an NPR interview (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kraant, Chacounne

    on today with 2 former Pakistani prisoners, who were held for 4 years at Gitmo.  They graphically described the horrors they went through after being literally sold to US agents by human poachers who appear to just randomly select victims for profit.  I feel such shame for the depths to which our government has sunk by perpetrating these acts of torture against often totally innocent people who have no recourse - no trials, no lawyers, no communication with their families and no hope for ever being free again.

    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK

    by moose67 on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 09:49:36 PM PDT

    •  Now you can do something about it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kraant, Chacounne

      That has a real chance of making an effect.

      Call or write. Tell them what you felt when you heard that interview. Tell them you don't want psychologists to participate in the BSCT interrogations.

      (I'm assuming you agree with me.)

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 09:51:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  whatever happenned to the apa page (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kraant

    that listed the military members of the apa and their positions--larry was the head of gitmo, and their were other luminaries--i can't seem to find it--can you post it?

    •  it looked something like this (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Valtin, kraant

      http://www.webster.edu/...
      but it was a bit better.  i guess they have taken it down--it was salon's primary source.

    •  Here it is, from Division 48, the Peace Div/APA (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kraant

      American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Psychological Ethics and National Security

      2003 Members' Biographical Statements

      Members of the Presidential Task Force on Psychological Ethics and National Security

      Olivia Moorehead-Slaughter, PhD - Chair
      Jean Maria Arrigo, PhD
      Morgan Banks, PhD
      Robert A. Fein, PhD
      Michael G. Gelles, PsyD
      Larry C. James, PhD
      Bryce E. Lefever, PhD
      R. Scott Shumate, PsyD
      Nina K. Thomas, PhD
      Michael G. Wessells, PhD

      Board of Directors Liaisons

      Barry S. Anton, PhD
      Gerald P. Koocher, PhD

      You had highlighted Larry James. How about R. Scott Schumate?

      In May of 2003, Dr. Shumate accepted a senior position in the Department of Defense as the Director of Behavioral Science for the Counterintelligence Field Activity. Currently, he has 20 psychologists and a multimillion dollar budget as he provides operational psychological support to several Defense Agencies though CIFA. DOD/CIFA is responsible for support to offensive and defensive counterintelligence (CI) efforts to protect and retain security over DOD assets, resources, and infrastructure. His team of renowned forensic psychologists are engaged in risk assessments of the Guantanamo Bay Detainees.

      Btw, I know of no other APA document that gives this information. It initially surfaced in the Salon article I quoted in a comment above.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:23:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Valtin, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, pico, kraant

    I am with you all the way. I will write the letters in the morning. Is there an even more effect way you can use my voice and my husband's story in person with the APA?

    I'll also remind people to ask your senators to support and vote for the Restore the Constitution Act of 2007
    http://thomas.loc.gov/...
    This Act makes the Geneva Convention, once more the law of the land and restores Habeus Corpus. It has been introduced and referred to the Armed Service Committee of the Senate

    Thanks for all the work you do to tell people,
    Torture is ALWATS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom,
    For Dan,
    Heather

  •  Rec'd, tipped and saved (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, pico, kraant, Chacounne, sdoswansong

    for tomorrow so I can take action.

    Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

    by madgranny on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:24:46 PM PDT

  •  actually (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, kraant

    i've worked on this issue and i think the apa is not the right avenue--torture is now permissible by American standards if not apa standards--people don't care about ethics unfortunately and the us military really doesn't need a Larry James to head gitmo anymore, and it probably never did--everyone in the military knows what to do, what waterboarding is, what stress positions, sleep deprivation, etc are.  And the us gov't has been compiling data from SERE for quite some time before 9/11, so they know what the boundaries of reisistance are.  

    SERE's data and training is enough.  Anyone who goes through SERE knows how far is the breaking point.  Even the School for Americas is unnecessary as a reference point.

    The real battle is to show that torture actually leads to bad results--and that is a debate that the APA needs to attack.  

    •  I respectfully disagree (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, YetiMonk, pico, kraant, Chacounne

      And I think my diary lays out the reasoning, but I'll highlight my points here.

      The military does still need psychological oversight. They still triage detainees based on psychological profile. They have admitted they need psychological assistance. The determination of malingering, as noted in the diary, is a psychological speciality, and even most psychologists don't know how to do it. The latter was specifically pointed out as a needed speciality in the KUBARK document.

      Finally, the whole battle demonstrates the importance the military attaches to this. If you don't believe so, please go and read my recent diary on the response of the military psychologist division within APA, Just in: Military Psychologists Oppose Torture Moratorium

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:37:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree, but don't mean to discourage you-- (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, Valtin, kraant

        basically, Zimbardo has shown that you really don't need a big expert to say, "do this" "do that."  That is really Zimbardo's revision of Milgram:  the authority figure (the man in the white coat) is less powerful than the situation.  Frankly, he and the carefully devised situation are totally unnecessary.

        Many people denegrate Zimbardo's experiment as a "demonstration"--however, as an experiment it showed all you need is the situation, a little motivation, and people will invent.  And certainly, a professional such as Larry James, observing Abu Ghraib, probably didn't think "photograph them--because it will lead to the eternal humiliation and debilitation of the subject and his community"--this was the inventiveness of those in the system of torture.  

        In the Nazi Germany, a similar inventiveness characterized  techniques of humilization, torture, dehumization, and torture.  Once the general directive was given, improvisation and a willingness to please superiors was the greatest contributor to the horror that ensued.  

        So, although I applaud your battle, the war on torture in the US is on a much broader front.  US cadets in West Point know Jack Bauer's methods--and indeed all SERE trainees know the breaking point.  That is--it is instutionalized--even if you succeed, this APA battle is purely academic.  So what if Larry James no longer belongs to the APA--do you think his career will fail?  Do you think he won't get published?  I think not.

        The larger battle for you and the APA is to prove what Isralai intelligence has proved--that torture is unreliable, unnecessary, and dangerous.  How do you think we got the goods that Saadam is connected to 9/11?

        •  I recommend your comment, but still disagree (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BloggerJohn, pico, kraant

          The recommendation is for its well-written argument and for its sincerity.

          But I still believe you are mistaken, and crucially so. Zimbardo, by the way, is a major supporter of the moratorium resolution. I think he emphasizes the situationist viewpoint because that was his research emphasis.

          I choose to emphasize the deliberate nature of the planning involved. I suppose you could say this is from my training as an historian (initially... I'm a psychologist now).

          Walter Pincus has a great article that lays out most of my arguments: Iraq Tactics Have Long History With U.S. Interrogators.

          Almost everything you hear about in modern torture was figured out, not from SERE in the 80s and 90s, but over 40 years ago or more. Even the use of photographs was prefigured in the CIA KUBARK interrogation manual in 1963!

          The interrogation room affords ideal conditions for photographing the interrogatee without his knowledge by concealing a camera behind a picture or elsewhere.

          SERE-type counter-engineering of torture techniques goes back to the 1950s. It helped provide the contemporary model of torture that has been (mostly) in place since the late 50s/early 60s.

          I know A LOT about this. I have studied it extensively, and have gotten a hold of much that is not in current circulation. You may have read some of this original research that I posted here not too long ago.

          See my diary, NEW Documents Show U.S. Torture Was Planned Long Ago.

          Zimbardo and others over-emphasize the situationist viewpoint. It IS important, and the psychological understanding of how obedience works, as well as how human beings break down and regress under torture if terribly important. But so is the linking of individuals and institutions to policy plans and implementataion of those plans.

          War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

          by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 11:31:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Re your assertion (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, kraant, Chacounne

      You write:

      Anyone who goes through SERE knows how far is the breaking point.

      How do you know this? And if so, why does the Army and intelligence services go so far to keep their links to the mental health professions?

      Why did the Army send former Army Surgeon General Kiley to the last APA convention to argue against banning psychologists from their interrogations?

      Re "bad results"... there is plenty of data already that shows that torture works sometimes, and also provides bad data, sometimes. The call for showing what it does is bogus, because the data to scientifically prove it is almost all CLASSIFIED.

      When Dr. Behnke appeared in Berkeley recently, I specifically asked him if he would support declassifying this material so we could do what you suggest. He declined to even address the question.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:42:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  look up (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Valtin, kraant

        the article "Assessment of Humans Experiencing Uncontrollable Stress: The SERE ..." you have to pay in Find articles but if you want a copy I can give you one.  this was an obversational study:  they collected data and analyzed the results rather than begining with a hypothesis.  Basically, if you are collecting data from every soldier who goes through SERE and also interviewing the instructors, you know where the border of torture lies, quantatively and qualitatively.  

        Why does the army need the APA?  Well, they're doing the cutting edge research that the APA outlawed--in part because gov't funding was cut to researchers such as milgram and zimbardo.  The gov't didn't fund Milgram after the Obedience Experiments and if you look at his later work, you will notice that it relies on cheap graduate students in his department.

        To the gov't/military APA members--well, they're doing the cutting edge research.  They get some personal satisfaction of going where all other APA members cannot go.  They also, quite frankly, are not as--how should we say--at the bleeding edge of FMRI stuff--so they're exercising their monopoly on the area that the gov't staked out for them.  And, they are getting academic props to augment their government stature.

        Continued . . .

        •  I appreciate the cite (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kraant

          I do not, via Google, find this document at all (pages no longer exist). If you wish to send me a copy at sfpsych at gmail dot com, that would be great.

          But there is a lot of literature on individuals under uncontrollable stress, under hypnosis, under drugs, under sensory deprivation, etc. The results have been written up. There is even some on SERE, but the classification of results still stands as an obstacle.

          An example:

          Following the evasion activity, students in the course are captured and confined in a mock prisoner of war setting for a number of days. During this phase, the participants are given, in as highly a realistic manner as possible, a captivity experience in the S.E.R.E. program. In the captivity phase, each participant is exposed to intense and uncontrollable stress, and each attempts to avoid exploitation by his instructor. Because of the classified nature of the course, a detailed description of the individual stressors is not possible.

          I know more than you give me credit for. Review my work here at Daily Kos, and I think you will get that.

          War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

          by Valtin on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 11:43:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i'll send you some material tomorrow (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Valtin, kraant

            i'm on the east coast, so i'm going to bed.  again, sorry for the grad student remark--i'm just more pessimistic about APA change than u.  The entire APA knows that even the great Milgram got his funding cut bec. he went a bit too far--the gov't didn't really want the general public to know these things.  So, I don't like it--but i understand the mechanisms of obedience ;)

      •  You're obviously a graduate student (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kraant

        I would guess.  If I were a graduate student, what I would demand from the APA is equal treatment for non-governmental studies.  Basically, if the gov't comes out with a study, any member of the APA has a right to duplicate its results to test its veracity.  

        If the APA doesn't allow that, then it is not a peer-reviewed scientific organization.  So being a member of the APA condemns all your research, even if you are doing some simple FMRI stuff.

        I'm sure many would like to peer-review studies, or do their own research on torture.  

        The APA is caught in a bind bec. so much $$ comes from the gov't it is afraid to take a political stand, but it could take a scientific stand.

        I would propose doing a variation of the Milgram experiments again indoctrinating subjects with hatred towards terrorists, and making the subject an actual terrorist--if the bar is lowered, then fight your fight by using the APA against itself.  

        •  i appologize, i take that back (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Valtin, kraant

          i read your last comment--i didn't mean the you're obviously a grad student to reflect on your arguements--only that i don't think the APA ban on Larry and his band is not that important, because of what you said--these are old techniques, the knowledge is in the system, and certainly there's a lot of cross-pollination that exists between School for Americas, CIA studies, etc.

          Obviously, you do know the history on this subject and I'm sorry for a bad attempt at trying to get your attention; however, I'm of the view that--well, i can't say it here--however, i don't think the APA is that essential to these individuals.  or that these individuals are producing ground-breaking work.

          I think it's a long fight against the history that you've documented and a APA ban on Larry James, et al. would be a false victory.  

          It would be much better to change the rules of the APA.

          •  Well, I agree (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kraant

            The battle against the APA won't tell the whole story, not by a long shot.

            But it will be a terrible black eye for them, and it will gum up the works.

            Strangely, the APA leadership has a point: they argue the military/CIA needs professionals there because of the ease with which interrogations get out of hand. I think the military believes that, too.

            From the Pentagon standpoint, they can cut APA loose, have their own in-house psychologists, or, via CIA, bankroll clandestinely as they need.

            But the fight sorely needs a victory of some sort, and I do think losing the support and participation of the APA will have some material impact.

            Btw, I appreciate you feeling guilty re the graduate student crack, and I guess it hit something in me, but not that much, and I wasn't holding it against you at all. I kind of even took it as a compliment of sorts: who but a grad student would have passion anyway? Not a jaded old professional.

            War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

            by Valtin on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:28:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The face of a proud torturer (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kraant

    Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 10:37:46 PM PDT

  •  Thanks! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, pico, kraant

    Please folks, support this call. And help us spread it wider. We need thousands to write and call APA and let them know in (polite but) uncertain terms that abetting torture is unacceptable.

    Further, we are planning demonstrations at APA in August in lovely San Francisco. Perhaps our West Coast DK folks will join us. One factor that will influence the APA is if they get really bad press. Let's make that happen.

Permalink | 32 comments