Daily Kos

Kossacks Under 35: Beating the "Experience" Catch-22 to Get a Job

Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:12:17 PM PDT

Do you keep finding jobs only to be told you need more experience?  Or graduate from college only to realize that every help wanted ad asks for a years worth of experience, minimum?  What do you do when all you have is that degree you spent %#*! for?  And how are you supposed to get any experience if you have no experience!?!?

Believe me, I know how frustrating it is as a Young Kossack to navigate your way through the entry level job transition.  You often feel you're barely qualified to apply for anything--including jobs you aren't even interested in.    

Congratulations!  It's time to compensate for the gap between your our educational system and the job market!   I could go on and on about how ridiculously our eduicational and employment sectors intersect, but that could be a whole other diary.  Instead, four years out of college, let me walk you through some tips to compensate for that lack of "experience."  

We Don't Need No Stinking Experience: Understanding the Employer Mindset

First off, as unfair and catch-22 as it might seem, realize that an employer usually asks for a minimum amount of experience not to be arbitrarily difficult but because they want to make sure that:

  1.      They don't waste time and money training you on basics
  1.      That you are responsible enough that they can reasonably expect you to show up and complete tasks that assigned to you
  1.      That you have a basic sense of how to behave appropriately in a business setting

They also realize that graduating from school and getting your first job can be a big transition—a transition that can be volatile, emotionally taxing and something they may not want to deal with.    A year also means you some track record they can use to predict future performance.  But that doesn't mean we feel any better about what seems like a silly situation--namely that you need experience to get experience.

My Resume is a Blank Sheet of Paper!

Before we get into how much experience you do or don't have, I'm going to break this down into a few steps for you.

  1.      First, make a list of all the places you have worked, ever, no matter how trivial.  
  1.      Now list all the places you have volunteered.
  1.      List all the clubs and organizations you have been involved in.
  1.      Make a list of the areas of interest in your studies, even research projects or big papers you worked on in school.
  1.      Make a list of any skills you have--work related or otherwise.

Now, step back and think about your goals and what type of job you are interested in, because your plan of action is going to depend on what type of job you are trying to get.

For the purposes of this diary, I am going to assume something entry level, with an office environment or customer service based environment.

Time to Dig

Most of the time, people already have a lot of skills and experience and they just don't realize it.  It's very rare that you didn't do a single thing in high school, college or after graduation.   At some point you had to be dragged into or interested in pursuing something.  Did you help your sister's girl scout troop organize a cookie sale through a local grocery store?   (If so you coordinated and took care of scheduling, secured permission, organized the event and helped sell $X for a good cause!)  As you can see, experience can be a lot of things, but mainly it's what you already do in your everyday life distilled down into basic skills.

These things all look pretty remote when you see them listed:

Event planning

Meeting scheduling

Coordinating

Trained on Phones Systems

Filing

Assisting

Computer skills

Language skills

Proficiency with Math, English or other

Copying, Filing and Faxing

But I'm sure you've actually done many of them and if you haven't—don't worry, we'll get to that.

Where to Look for an Entry Level Job

First, you need to be looking for something appropriate to your level of experience.  Lucky for you, entry level job searches are pretty straightforward.   Obviously, Craigslist, Monster and even search boards through your university can be good sources.  But if there is somewhere you really want to work, call them and ask if they are hiring or send them a packet directly.   I have actually never gotten a job through a want ad, though I have had interviews and applied to many.  One job I got by throwing my back out and striking up a conversation with someone in the waiting room who happened to need help at their business.   The other time, I printed up a "business card" with my contact info and put it in a blue and gold folder from staples with a customized cover letter and resume.   I called it the KK promotional packet and mailed it to places I really wanted to work.  And it actually did get me a job.  

So expand your search beyond the online job boards by calling friends and family, sending out emails to let people know you are looking, meeting with friends of friends who work somewhere that seems interesting to you.   Many people are also willing to grant you an informational interview where as a courtesy they talk to you about what they do and what you would have to do to qualify for the type of job you're interested in. Your alumni network at your school can be a great resource for this.   But sitting home and applying online is not going to cut it.  No matter how many resumes you email or fax, you are going to have to do more than sit back and wait for someone to hire you.   And those who are least afraid to seize the initiative and get out there are usually the ones who get hired.

Customize Your Experiences

Especially if you have limited experience, you are going to have to apply to jobs individually.  You may even be uniquely qualified when it comes to some jobs.  Maybe you have minimal office experience, but including that you wrote your senior thesis on epidemiology when you are applying for a job with a doctor's office might help.

Get creative and think about courses you took, your hobbies and interests and anything else you are knowledgeable about.  Until you get a lot more experience, these things will help fill up your resume and flesh out who you are as an individual to prospective employers.  

Internships

These are great, if you did them.  But a lot of us spent our summers traveling or working at Starbuck's.   But what you might not now is that many internships are open to college graduates up to a year after graduation.  I found this out when I saw a great NPR internship 14 months after I graduated.   : (  But you know!  Because I just told you!  

If you did do an internship and you still have a connection at the organization, call them.  Maybe they have a position open or know of other organizations that do.  Sometimes just calling to tell them you are looking for a job and asking if you can list them as a reference can open a door.  A lot of these people get emails about positions at other organizations they work with.    

While many of us can't afford to do an unpaid internship after graduating (the whole point was to get a paying job, remember?) if moving home is an option you can sometimes find short term internships through museums or non-profits back home.   Heck, a volunteer organization might even be willing to create an unpaid one for you if you are willing to commit to volunteering there for several months.    And several months is plenty of time to gain meaningful experience if you are serious, enthusiastic, and upfront about what you want to get out of the experience and why you want to help them.

Get the to a Temp Agency

Temp agencies can be a great place to start, since they often require little to no experience, offer short term job, and thus are a quick way to gain job experience.   They can be a place you temp while looking for a better job, or sometimes they can even lead to full time positions.  And the commitment is usually one to several weeks, though I know some who have landed month long jobs.

Most temp agencies require that you bring a resume and come down for an appointment.  They'll administer a battery of tests so they can determine your typing speed and proficiency with computer programs such as MS WORD and EXCEL.   They'll want to know whether you have used multiple extension phone systems before, if you have any special skills and what you are looking for in terms of work.    The whole process usually takes a few hours and you should show up dressed as you would for a regular interview.  In fact, treat the entire process that way because they will be using this time to access how you do in a professional setting and which jobs they should send you to.

Temp agencies usually offer fairly good pay for recent college grads, though the majority of positions are entry level so pay can be low for those reentering the job market with lots of experience.    Think reception work or general office assist.  But they are a great starting point.  Even a few weeks of experience in an office environment can make a big difference to a potential employer and add some definite benefit to your resume.  

Volunteer

The other way to gain experience is by volunteering.  Many organizations are desperate for unpaid help, and you generally get to do a lot of what the paid help does: answer phones, do some faxing and photocopying and assisting with sending out mailers or coordinating events.   That's all something that can go on your resume.

And if you have already done volunteer work, make sure you list it on your resume.  First, many employers are impressed to see that not only do you have outside hobbies and interests, but that you give back through public service.   Plus, volunteer duties often include training in what are legitimate job skills.  I make sure to list them in a separate section of my resume to make it clear that it was a volunteer position and I wasn't paid, but I do list them.  

The nice thing about volunteering is you can help a cause you feel strongly about and gain experience that would otherwise be closed to you at the same time.   Volunteer organizations are often a great place to pick up skills and they very rarely care if you have any experience at all.  They are willing to train you and place you and if you take it seriously and show an interest you can often move into more specialized positions as well.   And a lot of non-profit organizations are often more likely to hire their interns and volunteers because they have already shown a commitment to the organization and are familiar with its goals and how it operates.

Taking a Class

Have the basic office skills but want to move into Public Relations or Marketing, or really dying for Finance?   Consider taking a course through a university extension program.  These are often geared toward professionals and you can list them on your resume since they prepare you in many ways for the type of work you are looking for.

Join a Professional Industry Association

Or better yet, get active in one.  They often offer training in the industry, contacts and networking opportunities and a chance to show employers you are really committed to working in the field.

This is also a great way to transition across industries as well.  You get to know the companies and the skills while connecting with others and absorbing through osmosis.

Putting it All Together: It's Resume Time!

Consider organizing your resume according to your skills and listing all your jobs in one section.  Then you can focus your resume on what you've accomplished and can do.   The one downfall to this is it is not standard and that may cause some to toss it in the reject pile.  But the benefit is it still contains all the relevant information and should still be picked up by key word searches if the company uses a filter and it focuses on your accomplishments in general rather than which company or organization each took place at.

There are a ton of great resources online with resume templates and formatting.

You're Looking for a Job

Realize too that most people don't land their dream job right out of college and many find employment in a field they didn't study.   So don't limit yourself too much in your search.  Even a fairly dull job can transition into something great, and at the very least it will get you the experience you need to move forward.  But since you should aim to stay in your first job for at least one year, make sure it is something you do want.

******************
10 Minutes With Kossacks Under 35 Founder kath25

I'm also very excited to announce that I had the opportunity to interview kath25 on our new show, 10 Minutes With.  The series offers short, ten minute interviews with some of the more interesting voices in politics.  You can download the podcast at BlogTalkRadio, or stream the show at our blog,
Political Nexus.

 

Tags: Kossacks Under Thirty Five, Community, jobs, resume, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 310 comments

  •  Thanks, KK! (11+ / 0-)

    This is great. Thanks for contributing, and for hosting me on your radio show today.

    Want to be on the Kossacks Under 35 Mailing List?

    kossacksunder35 (at) gmail dot com

    "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

    by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:04:30 PM PDT

  •  or you can do (13+ / 0-)

    what my girlfriend is doing, and join the Peace Corps :-)  That will build your resume--as long as you don't have, say, any long-term financial obligations or any other commitments, and you're willing to live in a third-world country for a couple of years.  But hey--why not?

    Great diary KK.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    My blog. Come visit.

    by hekebolos on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:09:34 PM PDT

  •  Objectives (8+ / 0-)

    My aunt does a lot of HR consulting, and she said that it's not worth it to take the space on your resume to list your "objective: (to get whatever job you're offering)."

    She says that it's a waste of space that can be better served by providing more information about yourself.

    "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

    by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:11:59 PM PDT

    •  Very true. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sarahnity, kath25

      I ditched that and now write a cover letter of some form and it definitely works better.

      Raise hell --Molly Ivins

      by Jocelyn on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:46:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  cover letters are worthless (0+ / 0-)

        as well

        "Reality has a well known liberal bias"-Stephen Colbert

        by politicaljunkie2008 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 10:37:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Au contraire, mon frere. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kath25

          I'd say that about 75% of the time, as a hiring manager, the difference between an applicant getting an interview and not getting an interview has been the cover letter.  Resumes that arrive without one are immediately consigned to my "No" file.  If you can't be bothered to write one, I can't be bothered either.

          A good cover letter -- one that will grab my attention -- has the following attributes:

          • Is never more than two pages long.
          • Has impeccable spelling and grammar, and shows a well-developed writing style.
          • Fills in any holes in the resume by A) talking about how the applicant's experience applies to that job. and/or B) explaining what gaps in the job history have been spent doing.
          • Shows that the applicant has taken the time to learn about the requirements of the job and also about the organization to which he/she is applying.

          The best application I ever saw arrived in a presentation folder.  When I opened the folder, on the right side was the resume.  On the left side was a cover letter that addressed the position's job description point by point and gave details about the applicant's qualifications for each of the job's responsibilities.  He did all of that and still kept the letter to two pages.  It was beautifully written and impeccably presented.  He came to his interview equally prepared not just with answers, but with questions of his own.  He got the job.

          Oh, and the "objective" part of a resume?  COMPLETE waste of space.  Do NOT bother.

          Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. -- teacherken

          by Mehitabel9 on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:15:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Having read (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, apdva, kath25

      hundreds of resumes for entry level positions -- amen!

      Oh, how many hopefuls start out their resume with their "objectives" which might be appropriate for someone applying for a position as a corporate vice president.  But believe me, as the file clerk, your dynamism is not going to totally re-make the office I've been running for 20 years!

      The time for action is past. Now is the time for senseless bickering -- My T-Shirt

      by Frankenoid on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:58:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Anybody who has any other tips (9+ / 0-)

    please list them!  I am always interested in how others have managed to navigate the system.

    I find that getting directly involved and trying to just do what you want at a volunteer level or even on your own can be very powerful.  Much easier than waiting for someone else to give you a chance.  Though, if you can do your own thing while waiting, that is prolly the best of all.

    Political Nexus is now at Heading Left, the official home of BlogTalkRadio's progressive lineup

    by theKK on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:14:54 PM PDT

    •  knowing somone (a relative, family friend, (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, kath25

      friend of a friend)can get you a serious leg up in whatever industry you are trying to break into.  I know it's cronyism, but you'd be foolish not to take advantage of ANY connection, no matter how distant, at your disposal.

      (ahem, you could even be elected President of the United States)

    •  I would very much agree (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, apdva, kath25

      Getting experience, no matter what, is essential to the process.

      I can't tell you how much of how businesses actually work does not get taught in university, and that's what worries employers.

      I hired an assistant once who laughingly told me how as she was coming up to receive her diploma in Marketing, how worried she was about having to supervise all these older people once she graduated and got her job!

      Of course, she could only get hired as a receptionist at an ad agency.  

      Luckily, I hired her away from that after a few years, even though ironically I wasn't even as old as she was when she graduated.  And I had to teach her how to write a memo.  And teach her it was not OK to talk trash to vendors.  And on and on.

      But luckily, she made the most of it from there.

      •  True story. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kath25

        I have an MBA from a top-ten business school.  I went straight from my English major/Drama minor BA to business school (and it damn near killed me).  My objective was to become a manager in the nonprofit sector.

        My first job offer out of grad school was in the area of finance and accounting for a major local arts organization.  I didn't think that finance and accounting was what I wanted to do, but I wanted to work for this company, so I jumped at it.

        But once I had the job -- and I kid you not on this -- I had to keep a post-it taped to the top of my desk for about the first year reminding me of where the debits and credits went, because I didn't learn that in business school and I had a hell of a time remembering what went where.  The fundamental concepts of accounting took a very long time to sink into my brain and become ingrained there.

        Everything useful I know about both finance and accounting, I learned on the job.  What the business degree got me was a foot in the door -- I was hired by one of my biz school instructors.

        Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. -- teacherken

        by Mehitabel9 on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:40:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  List "real" jobs... (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rogun, sarahnity, rocketito, theKK, kath25

      I am always looking that someone has waited tables, lifeguarded, or worked in retail.  It says to me that they know what the real world is like...  If someone has only done internships, I think that they must have not ever needed money and never had any real responsibility.  Lousy jobs build character.  Internships don't.  

    •  get into a field with high demand and low supply (0+ / 0-)

      demand for and supply of labor

      "Reality has a well known liberal bias"-Stephen Colbert

      by politicaljunkie2008 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 10:44:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  any suggestions (0+ / 0-)

        on what those fields are right now?

        "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

        by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 11:27:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well it isn't just about supply/demand (0+ / 0-)

          it is also about what is a good fit. I love numbers, and hate words. so I wouldn't be good as say a journalist. so even if there were a lot of journalism jobs and few job seekers, I would still stay away from it

          I think going by what is a good fit is a far better criteria than what is your "passion" or what you were "born to do" due to the subjectivity and uncertainty (and guesswork) involved with the latter test.

          "Reality has a well known liberal bias"-Stephen Colbert

          by politicaljunkie2008 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 11:34:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, and resume tips, too! (7+ / 0-)

    It's almost a whole 'nother diary.  So if you have a site you like or friends with insight, please share.

    Political Nexus is now at Heading Left, the official home of BlogTalkRadio's progressive lineup

    by theKK on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:18:18 PM PDT

    •  All that talk about "buzzwords" (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, apdva, kath25

      is bullshit. Tons of people will see those buzzwords and junk your resume.

      Send this Turn Maine Blue blogger to Denver! Click here to donate.

      by Eddie in ME on Thu May 10, 2007 at 08:08:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A few resume tips from a career counselor (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kath25, WayneNight, Jocelyn

      Make it easy for the employer to see that you are qualified for the job. Read the job description carefully and specifically address how your experience matches the needs of the job.  

      If you are changing careers or starting off as a new graduate, I strongly recommend using a "skill based" resume instead of a "chronological" resume.

      Use simple, short phrases.  As a university career counselor, one of the biggest mistakes I see made on resumes is that job-seekers want to fluff up their experience on their resumes.  It's much better to list your skills, accomplishments and knowledge in simple, short bullet points.  Start each phrase with a strong action verb (eg., planned, organized, supervised, managed, designed, etc.). Do not feel shy about using the exact phrases that are in the job description. Just make sure you are truthful.

      Don't be ashamed of your experience in food service or retail.  Employers are impressed by hard work.  However, make sure you highlight the skills that are transferable into other settings.  For example, you don't need to talk about the sandwiches that you made at the deli. Rather describe your outstanding customer service skills; your experience working as a member of a team in a fast-paced environment; or your ability to meet multiple deadlines.

      Last, but by no means least:  PROOFREAD your resume.  75% of the resumes I review have at least one error. Ick.

  •  I figured (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, sarahnity, Boppy, kath25

    I'd add a link to georgia10's discussion about careers from the weekend.  Seems germane.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    My blog. Come visit.

    by hekebolos on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:19:56 PM PDT

  •  From someone on the hiring side (13+ / 0-)

    I don't do a lot of hiring or interviewing, but I do some and I'm surprised at how few of the resumes that cross my desk actually tell me what I want to know about the applicant.  Keep in mind that I'm looking at technical people who usually have at least a masters degree.  Here's what I want to see from new grads:

    • a resume no more than 1 page long.  If you have a PhD with a ton of publications, make that 1.5 pages.  No more.
    • I don't care about your hobbies and interests.  I don't want to know that you enjoy country line dancing or fencing.  Unless by some stretch of the imagination it has something to do with the job at hand, don't put extraneous stuff down.
    • List all the classes you've taken that may be applicable.  Just because you have a degree in physics, I don't know what your specialty was.  I want to see all you've been exposed to.
    • List all the technical skills you have.  Every language you have programmed in, every piece of software you have used.  I may not want somebody who's an expert in that topic, but I want to see that you are open to learning stuff.
    • Finally, don't try to bullshit me.  If you have used a software package in one class, don't try to convince me you're an "expert".  You're not fooling me, you've just convinced me you're someone I can't trust.

    Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

    by sarahnity on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:22:34 PM PDT

    •  Research Skills (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, sarahnity, Boppy, Jocelyn

      Great point about research skills, esp. for those going from academia to the real world. (Heh.) A list of the specific research skills, analytical models, etc. is important.

      Speaking of which, I am suffering through my take-home stats exam. Ohmygod.

      "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

      by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:25:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, etherapy, Boppy, kath25

      it seems like some of your advice can basically be boiled down to: tailor your resume specifically to the job you're trying to get...?

      "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

      by tryptamine on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:28:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that is definately important. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, sarahnity, kath25

        especially at an entry level where you really aren't specialized enough to only be applying to one type of job.

        Customizing shouldn't be a major rewrite, just emphasizing the more topical things for each job.  (i.e. your math skills would be highlighted higher up on the page for an accounting assistant versus a basic office assistant job etc.)

        Political Nexus is now at Heading Left, the official home of BlogTalkRadio's progressive lineup

        by theKK on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:33:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, tailor it to the field (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, rocketito, kath25

        In my field, you could be applying to a bunch of different companies, but you are essentially applying for the same job.  

        It doesn't hurt to try to tailor it to the specific employer, but when you grab verbiage off our website job description and put it in your job objective, it's a bit obvious.  

        That reminds me of more stuff you should leave off: really old information.  By the time you are graduating with a masters, I really don't care that you were valedictorian of your high school class.  All it says to me is that you are someone living in the past who can't let go of your former glory.  

        Yes, I am old and grumpy, how did you guess?

        Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

        by sarahnity on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:39:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fencing? (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, sarahnity, Boppy, kath25

      That is an interesting resume choice. Maybe you could include it if you were applying to be a master deli slicer...

      Political Nexus is now at Heading Left, the official home of BlogTalkRadio's progressive lineup

      by theKK on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:31:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I listed courses taken on my resume outta college (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sarahnity, kath25

      And it got me my first job! I had a BA in history but I wanted to emphasize the math, statistics, technical writing and computer courses I had also taken.  I wanted to show I was a well rounded person.  So it landed me my first job -- a modesst entry level job arranging travel for visiting scientists.

      I loved that job and my first boss was fantastic. I discovered my own apitude for computers and in the process gently dragged my boss into the computer age as well.

    •  Hobbies (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, tryptamine, sarahnity, kath25

      I don't care about your hobbies and interests.  I don't want to know that you enjoy country line dancing or fencing.  Unless by some stretch of the imagination it has something to do with the job at hand, don't put extraneous stuff down.

      The key thing to remember is that sometimes it is a good idea to list hobbies, if they do have something to do with the job you're applying for.

      My brother got his current job as an engineer because he listed on his resume that he enjoyed reparing and rebuilding automobiles.  The person reviewing the resume had the same hobby, felt that it carried with it some of the skills needed for the job he was hiring for, and used that factor to break a tie between my brother and another applicant.

    •  Have hired gazillions IT folks...good advice (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sarahnity, kath25

      I would amplify the 1-page rule - never violate it. Use bold only to start an item, bullets are appreciated, adjectives are not.

      A personal letter can help in professional fields. Also, languages and willingness to travel are useful.

      References should always be checked first. I will never fail to be astonished at how many people give so-so or downright bad references.

      And my best advice, don't worry if you don't have all of the requirements including experience. An optimistic, energetic, friendly personality will surpass many deficiencies. Confidence is good but humility is far better than arrogance.

      Be grateful for denials - a job is a long term relationship and it needs a two-sided commitment to be fruitful.

      HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

      by kck on Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:52:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  a lot of blank, white space is good also (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kck, kath25

        if your page is full of words, it will be harder for employers to read and absorb (quickly) what is on the resume

        "Reality has a well known liberal bias"-Stephen Colbert

        by politicaljunkie2008 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 10:57:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely, you got it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kath25

          I call it ALF = Adult Language Format.
          o  4 pages/presentation
          o  4 bullets/page
          o  <4sylables/word <br>o  Be prepared to only discuss the totals on the 4'th page.

          Oh, one other piece of advice, save the great sense of humor, sarcasm, and irony for dkos, leave them home for the interview and suppress it as long as possible until you're past the first three months. The hiring authorities have heard 'em all.

          HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

          by kck on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:09:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Test Prep and Teaching Experience (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, sarahnity, Boppy

    If you're a great standardized tester, I recommend applying for a job at Kaplan or Princeton Review. I worked for Kaplan for awhile, and it's not a bad gig. The pay is good, and it can be fun. Though the application process is a bit arduous.

    It's really hard to get teaching experience, so if you think you ever might want to teach, look for chances in school or through something like test prep to get some experience. Even when I got my MA I hadn't ever taught, so I couldn't get community college teaching jobs.

    "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

    by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:23:26 PM PDT

  •  it could be the field I'm in (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vivacia, tryptamine, sarahnity, Boppy, kath25

    But in computing, it seems almost the opposite: recruiters are crawling all over campuses competing for new hires right out of college, whereas if you're 40 you'll have a harder time finding a job.

    "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

    by Delirium on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:24:36 PM PDT

    •  a few guesses as to why (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, tryptamine, sarahnity, kath25
      • A bunch of the market is being sucked up by a second dot-com boom of sorts, this one in "social networking". College students are assumed to have a better idea how to cater to this market, so it's kind of like you're getting a marketing guy along with your programmer.
      • Especially at startups, or places with startup-like culture like Google, they want bright-faced, excited people who are going to treat it as a passion, not a 9-5 job. You're not as likely to get that from someone who's been jaded by 20 years in the industry, and has a wife and three kids.
      • Although it's somewhat irrational since anyone competent should be able to learn new programming languages and whatnot pretty quickly, employers are always worried about people not being up on the latest technology.

      "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

      by Delirium on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:29:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've actually heard of companies that do this to (7+ / 0-)

        lower their health care costs.  Yet another reason we HAVE to fix the healthcare system in this country.

        Political Nexus is now at Heading Left, the official home of BlogTalkRadio's progressive lineup

        by theKK on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:34:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sad to say (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vivacia, sarahnity, nataliegoldston

          makes sense -- young workers are less likely to have spouses/children/dependent parents, and less-serious medical maladies.

          Though, the poor insurance for students and out-of-work young'uns means that the insurance can still take a huge hit once someone gets hired. When I finally got my full-time job last year, I had a knee problem to get fixed. Many MRI's and Doctor visits later, it was. Poor insurance. Heh heh. Then there were the traveling vaccinations...

          "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

          by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:36:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  yeah that'd make sense (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sarahnity, Boppy, kath25

          It wouldn't fix the mismatch between someone who just wants a 9-5 and a company who wants a startup-like passion, but it would at least prevent companies for passing people over for reasons that are not actually at all relevant to the job, like healthcare. Really there is no reason healthcare should be tied to employment. Either the government should provide it, or if you want to be free-market about it, everyone should buy their own private health insurance on the open market. But the current system doesn't make any sense from either a right-wing or a left-wing point of view.

          "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

          by Delirium on Thu May 10, 2007 at 06:44:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  In addition to the health-benefits issue (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kath25

        A cynical take is that a lot of startups don't want people who have been around long enough to remember that their founder wasn't the first person to come up with that Great Idea and that everyone else who did went broke.

        I do like conducting hearings in an actual hearing room -- John Conyers

        by ebohlman on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:01:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sarahnity, kath25

      there's a real market for people who know the older languages to work on transitions from older systems.

      And, from a personal hiring standpoint, I am always more willing to hire an older person with a few languages under their belt, that I know will adapt to new languages more readily, than some fresh face with only Visual Basic under their belt.

      •  The boyfriend (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sarahnity

        hires tech people a lot, and has come to recognize that stable mid-career folks who just want a steady gig are great. They don't leave, they're super-dependable. between the kids and the mortgage, they don't want to leave the job.

        Unlike some of us young'uns who can leave at a moments' notice!

        "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

        by kath25 on Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:01:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But nobody wants anyone using InfoMaker (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vivacia, rogun, sarahnity, kath25

        Ten years experience using Oracle 6/8 and InfoMaker. Got laid off and ended up in a Financial Analyst position. Hee OTOH I'm making $10,000 more than in the old job a year later.