Daily Kos

Middle East Peace, Dialogue shut down

Sun May 13, 2007 at 09:50:24 AM PDT

The administrators are over worked and tired...  tired of dealing with the problems of the Middle-East Peace Talks.

The administration has issued an proclamation - No more Middle-East talks -
Due to a rouge Banned User that refuses to go. Worse then not going, this Band User has terrorized Kos administrators with threading emails and unlawful reentries, despite continuous deportations.

It seems that Daily Kos security wall has been breached. Where the failure is has yet to be discovered, although it could be a series of tubes?

If this turns out to be True, more unwelcome Trespasser might be able to get In...
This can not be allowed, more diaries would be written by these Trespassers which could cause harm to the whole community; dairies would fly by quicker on the scroll, giving less time for Real Members dairies to be seen.  Worse yet these Trespassers are helping dKos enemies by handing ammunition that might be used on FundamentalistWebsites hell-bent on ruining dKos.  

the ugliness unfolds

In order to put a stop to This Threat Some Members Formed a Patrol Group dedicated to Daily Kos Security...

Accusations were made, several Verified!!!!

Other claims turn out to be unwarranted... another group of kos members felt a witch-hunt was under way and spoke out against The Patrol Group.

It wasn’t long before their user ID’s were suspect - Perhaps they to were un-trust worthy. Threats were Made-

A quick look into their history- reflected what was already suspected, at one time these "so called members" had behaved in a friendly manner, going so Far as to even recommended diaries written by this now Band User! A deeper probe was in order -

The Patrol Group, found their Evidence: Some of Members had started their Own Blog outside dKos and at some time this Group had given sanctuary to the Band User... someone would have to answer for this!

While it was true, they did have a blog site "these members" swore they had Expelled the Trespasser once it became clear that this Person wasn’t trust worthy...

Another check reviled that the Trespasser had their own Blog and on That Blog they had Asked Readers to Join Daily Kos... did that mean the Trespasser was now acting as an outside agent, just handing "These Bloggers" Passage into The Daily Kos.    

The Patrol Group, Hunted down new users: Interrogations were called for - where These New User Working with the "Trespasser"... Fear and Our Rage was in the Air- Answer the questions, why wont you answer the questions....

The administration received another email from the unwelcome Trespasser...
The Email was Terrifying: The unwelcome Trespasser promised to brake through Daily Kos Wall, stating Nothing Would Stop Them!

Lumping all members that had shown sympathy for the Palestinian people onto one Corner - Their Loyalty is in Question.

Accusations were Made -

  • The Members that were Sympathetic to Palestinian People must be in Bed with the Band User, even working with them!
  • Every single new dKos member that was Sympathetic to Palestinian People would be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
  • The administration would ban anyone that sounds vaguely like the Trespasser!
  • Members Sympathetic to Palestinian People were using manipulation and were trying to Use Daily Kos as an outlet for propaganda.

The administration proclaimed "Special Rules Must be made for Peace"
or the Debate Must End!

I thought the Admits needed to make things Clear-

  1. Inform The Trespasser they will File a complaint with Law Enforcement

  2. Inform I/P participants you need thick skin

  3. I/P participants get 1 complaint a quarter "Use it wisely" if you cry more then that You're Band-

and agreed there were some problems
  1.  Its clickish  

  2. People take things personal

  3. People are quick to see the worst regarding the other side

This really shouldn’t be a team sport-

5 members have Dairies another American, MBNYC, Jay Elias,  JPhurst   and litho

The first Political Position Daily Kos Bans will be Peace or lack of Peace in the Middle East?
I Find the Very Idea Absurd

I Think James Risser had the Best Questions

  • are all diaries about israel banned, or just those about palestine?
  • are all diarist who write about israel banned, or just those diarists who write about palestine?
  • are mentions of aipac, jinsa, saban center banned; or just those of hamas, jeff halper, and b'tselem?* are mentions of human rights violations of israel banned?
  • are mentions of human rights abuses by ANY other country but israel NOT banned?
  • are diaries about dead civilians allowed only if the dead civilians are NOT palestinians?
  • are diaries about the baghdad wall allowed; but, if compared to the west bank, banned?
  • is a diary about the usa supporting human rights violations by israel by veto at the un allowed?
  • is a diary about richard perle and doug feith banned; but a diary about richard perle and dick cheney not?
  • is a diary about hillary clinton at aipac banned; or, is a diary about netahyahu at aipac not banned?
  • is a diary about jack abramoff banned; or is a diary about jack abramoff funneling money from saginaw indians and sending it to the west bank for illegal settlers to use for weapons banned?
  • is a diary about the eu not having hezzbollah on their list of terrorist organizations banned?
  • is a diary about the eu defining anti-semitism as anti-israel banned?

The Admit want the community can come up with a few trusted users (one pro-I, one pro-P) who they'll listen to to make the difficult determinations on what sort of behaviors are and aren't out of line, the admins could back them up as necessary if any users refused to abide by their decisions.

Hall Monitors??

Look I didnt like them is School, the Kids that volunteered to walk around Asking For My Pass?

Telling Me My Skirt was to Short....

Come on, who ever Volunteer's is The Wrong Person for the Job!

So I guess this is my last Diary, about the Middle-East and all Hope for Peace...

Happy Mother's Day!  

Tags: Daily Kos, Israel, Palestine, Peace, Rant (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 167 comments

  •  Tip Jar- (10+ / 0-)

    Please don't Troll Rate/ Thanks

    "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

    by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 09:40:57 AM PDT

  •  I'm new here (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    npbeachfun

    so I don't quite get the post.  

    I am getting the impression that only pro Israel diaries are allowed and diaries that address the human rights abuses etc. of Israel are not?

    Can I get some quick clarification?  I am quite interested in the subject and apparently missed out on all the conversations that led to this post.

    •  No decision has been made... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Turkana, another American, zemblan

      ...nothing is clear except that the status quo ante is not acceptable for the future.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:00:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No Jay- (0+ / 0-)

        They will be ban link

        "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

        by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:02:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's not what... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Turkana, buddabelly, zemblan

          ...Hunter says in that link at all.

          That said, the central premise there is much like I've been proposing. If the community can come up with a few trusted users (one pro-I, one pro-P) who they'll listen to to make the difficult determinations on what sort of behaviors are and aren't out of line, the admins could back them up as necessary if any users refused to abide by their decisions.

          The trick is to come up with the code that both sides can follow, which the community has to create themselves. While it should be doable, I have my doubts that they can pull it off.  If they can, though, I think site management would almost certainly go along with it.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:03:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hall Monitors- (0+ / 0-)

            Im out- my parter will stay, but I left school some time ago

            "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

            by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:05:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  if people in i/p threads (5+ / 0-)

              behave like schoolchildren, the admins have every right to treat them as such.

            •  Assuming anyone agrees to do it... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, Turkana

              ...meanwhile, I left school a long time ago too.  That was partially because I reached an age where people were expected to behave like adults, something which is lamentably rare in blogs and particularly in this topic.

              If you want to go because of it, well, what can I say about that?  Except that evil wins when good people do nothing.  Not that Daily Kos is the only place to do something about evil, of course.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:08:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Jay- (0+ / 0-)

                You called for a Ban- you dont want to be a Hall Monitor-

                I was trying on Friday- trying yesterday

                But when Hunter Say's I dont think it will work?

                Now Im on your side- Ban them

                I think there is more misunderstanding then bad intentions...

                but there are member that just want to Banned them and they YELL the loudest and fight the dirtiest... why kid myself?

                "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:17:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I did not call for a ban... (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Rusty Pipes, Turkana, buddabelly

                  ...I said that I understood why Hunter and Markos would feel that way, and that I'm unconvinced that other proposed solutions will meet their demands.

                  I have not asked anyone to ban the topic, nor do I have a strong feeling about what they should do; their problems and concerns are not mine.

                  The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                  by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:20:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Im not blaming you (0+ / 0-)

                    I have nothing but respect for you- Truly and I know you find this hard to believe but I think in life we would be friends.

                    you just thought it might not work- and that they would end up band. People that want this Job- are Power Hunger that all you could get- no money, your not going to make friends...Power

                    I have spent half my life in war zones people that want Power

                    "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                    by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:28:15 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It isn't hard to believe at all... (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      npbeachfun, howardx

                      ...my friends are a nice mix of Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians and the politically uninterested.  

                      If you like live music, you'd have a good shot at being in my group of friends.  Or bourbon.  Or Scotch.  Or, well, you get the idea.

                      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                      by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:44:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  disagree (4+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon, npbeachfun, buddabelly, MBNYC

                  i think there's a small band of people with bad intentions, and they're undermining the efforts of the larger group, who have good intentions. just as in the middle east, itself.

        •  Oh the irony :) (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          npbeachfun

          Hunter:

          on one hand: we've been waiting for improvement for six months, and it hasn't gotten anywhere. I think there's very little patience left.

          Yeah, i mean six months! (not like..decades of military occupation and having some patience left after that?)

          Ban is the easy way out. And then prominent democrats can come here and see no evil. Jesus.

      •  The status quo in the ME is not acceptable (11+ / 0-)

        for the future. The way to guarantee its perpetuation is to shut down debate.

        You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

        by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 11:10:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dfb1968

          ...however, Daily Kos is neither responsible for the fate of the Middle East, nor capable of "shutting down debate" by virtue of not hosting it.

          Let's not get hyperbolic.  It is a blog, and not the State Department.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:32:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You underestimate daily kos. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            anonymousredvest18, npbeachfun

            Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

            by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:39:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I really doubt it.. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              zemblan

              ....Democratic Underground, which is far more free-wheeling than Daily Kos, has had rules particular to this issue for some time.  Moreover, these diaries are low-impact here already.

              The odds are, that if we got together enough quality and distinct voices on the Middle East (and by enough, I mean say four) and started a group blog called "Middle East Forum", we'd get as much at least, and probably far more exposure, influence, and impact.  Think of how big Juan Cole's blog is.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:43:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have no respect for Dem. Underground (7+ / 0-)

                for that very reason. I am sure I am not alone. You keep stating reasons for the diaries getting banned. The diaries are getting read.

                That's why there are people here trying to shutdown any criticism of Israeli policies, the Palestinian narrative and the facts on the ground.

                If we did not know what was happening in Iraq daily, there would not be the outcry over the Iraqi war. And you know that.

                Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:50:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...I've never been to DU.  So I can't speak with authority about it.

                  All I've been saying is that self-moderation in these threads has failed.  There is no real way to question that.  So, all ideas that do not contain real policies to promote better self-moderation in these threads bore me; they do not address the problem.

                  As for the bigger issues, I cannot stop being a libertarian long enough to suggest that Markos and Hunter have any obligation to host this debate if we cannot find a way of limiting the damage done by our behavior.  I don't think that anything about this is desirable; I'm merely reacting to the pressures that the ownership of this site is placing upon us.

                  The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                  by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:55:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How much of this pressure is being placed... (4+ / 0-)

                    ...by Kos himself? It's quite possible I've missed his commentary on this, but from all I've seen and read, this seems to be an FP-led affair.

                    ...i realize now / you were not to be blamed, my love / you didn't choose your name, my love...

                    by Diaries on Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:56:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...I'm only aware of Hunter's involvement; while Meteor Blades and DHinMI have posted in diaries about it, neither seem to have put direct input that is visible into the decision.

                      I don't know that Markos is involved at all personally; but Hunter is usually the person who makes many of the site policy announcements for Markos.  Knowing neither of them personally, nor MB or DH or having any personal relationship with the Front Pagers of Daily Kos, I can't speak with authority about any of this.

                      But Hunter is the second person below Markos for stie policy.

                      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                      by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:00:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Markos has said... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...that no other admin bans any poster without his permission, so I assume he is aware of Hunter's statements at least.

                      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                      by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:05:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It is silly to think Markos has not been (4+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Hornito, litho, npbeachfun, Diaries

                        put under pressure to ban criticism of Israeli policies and actions....but he has not become successful by backing down to power.

                        The more he stands up to the "elites" the more powerful this blog becomes.

                        Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                        by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:20:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't know whether to laugh or cry (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          MBNYC, zemblan

                          It is silly to think Markos has not been put under pressure to ban criticism of Israeli policies and actions.

                          That's actually one of the more offensive things I've read lately, and that's saying something.

                        •  Why on earth is that silly? (0+ / 0-)

                          And pressured by whom?  

                          This sort of substance-free allegation is really poor form when we are trying to make these threads less about attacking individuals.  You have no reason to believe that at all, and it is merely spurious.

                          Why should they keep these open if personal allegations like that are not only said but recommended?  Sure, Markos is a big figure, but attacks like that, be they against you or Jon or anyone else are as much the problem as any other issue.

                          If you want this to not be banned, mattes, be part of the solution.

                          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                          by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:33:14 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I am not naive Jay. (0+ / 0-)

                            Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                            by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:37:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Neither am I... (0+ / 0-)

                              ...and I know that what you say means that you believe not only that someone has tried to pressure him (a certainty) but that he is bending to that pressure.

                              Considering his record, that's practically slanderous.  And considering that the whole idea here is that even things that could be said probably often ought not be said, you're helping dig the topic's grave here by saying it.

                              But whatever.  It is only the difference between what you say you want, and what it might mean about whether or not you get what you want.  Either you are willing to act more responsibly in order to keep the topic here, or you are not mattes.  And it has little to do with me.

                              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                              by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:42:19 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                  •  Look they are being Read- (0+ / 0-)

                    and I get mail from around the globe-

                    "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                    by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:00:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Like I said: (4+ / 0-)

                    That's why there are people here trying to shutdown any criticism of Israeli policies, the Palestinian narrative and the facts on the ground.

                    I do believe Pres. Jimmy Carter said it best:
                    http://www.youtube.com/...

                    And I agree with this, most Americans don't have a clue:

                    The bleakness of life for Palestinians, especially in the Gaza Strip, is a mystery only to us. In the current Israeli campaign in Gaza, now sealed off from the outside world, almost 500 Palestinians, most unarmed, have been killed. Sanctions, demanded by Israel and imposed by the international community after the Hamas victory last January in what were universally acknowledged to be free and fair elections, have led to the collapse of civil society in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as widespread malnutrition. And Palestinians in the West Bank are being encased, in open violation of international law, in a series of podlike militarized ghettos with Israel's massive $2 billion project to build a "security barrier." This barrier will gobble up at least 10 percent of the West Bank, including most of the precious aquifers and at least 40,000 acres of Palestinian farmland. The project is being financed in large part through $9 billion in American loan guarantees, although when Congress approved the legislation in April 2003, Israel was told that the loans could be used "only to support activities in the geographic areas which were subject to the administration of the Government of Israel prior to June 5, 1967."
                    http://www.thenation.com/...

                    And as a libertarian, I would think you wound be a proponent free speech.

                    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                    by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:17:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am a proponent of free speech... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      npbeachfun

                      ...which is why I keep saying that as much as I want to keep this topic open here, it isn't the end of the world because there are many other venues for us to speak out about it.  Freedom of speech doesn't mean that Markos has to subsidize our saying whatever we want, but there are many others who would be thrilled to let us.

                      Our right to speak is protected by the government.  We have no "right" to speak here, and if the site owners won't let me speak here, I at least have no intention of shutting up.

                      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                      by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:29:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I've been to DU, and was one of the original (3+ / 0-)

                    members. I left, when a group of pro-Israel radicals took over the moderation of I/P threads, and went after anyone not friendly to Israel's politics and policies.

                    Hell, you couldn't even discuss "neocons" or the Likud without bringing their wrath. And interestingly,  almost everything I was discussing back then (neocons, PNAC, their members, and some of those members' connections to Israel and Likud), has proved to be 100% correct and true, was later picked up by the MSM, and is now common knowledge.

                    No, DU is a really lousy example of how to manage I/P threads, as they let a small group end up controlling the discussion, a group with a one-sided agenda. I'd rather see it banned entirely here, than end up like that. More fascism we don't need...

                    ..better that money be spent in the U.S. building windmills than squandered in the ME for Bush-McCain to tilt at them. -andydoubtless

                    by Hornito on Sun May 13, 2007 at 03:55:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly. (5+ / 0-)

                  Now that Dems are rising to power, and with Dkos providing a voice to the Democratic grassroots who don't support our current one-sided Israel policy, it has come time to try to shut down this forum to prevent such voices from being heard.

                  You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

                  by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:29:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  well opaka (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    MBNYC

                    I bet I could link to a few of your more hyperbolic posts regarding Israel (not gonna now) and any Democrat would make a quick getaway.

                    how the hell r ya btw?

                    Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                    by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:53:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'd like to see 'em. (4+ / 0-)

                      I try to keep level-headed. I think I've been pretty good at that. Maybe you could give a link without a full blockquote.

                      I'm not bad, thanks.

                      You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

                      by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:58:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  in addition (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        MBNYC

                        I bet I could find hundreds of such posts on the site, many by so-called I/P regulars.

                        Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                        by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:18:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  First, (3+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          litho, anonymousredvest18, npbeachfun

                          show me one or two that I've posted. Just a link please, no need for a full blockquote.

                          You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

                          by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:28:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  and many (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            MBNYC

                            such hyperbolic posts get uprated.

                            Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                            by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:41:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  course (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun, MBNYC

                            you also have your one-state solution types who Democrats would want absolutuley nothing to do with, yet they get their fair share of support here too.

                            Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                            by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:56:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  here ya go (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            MBNYC

                            The I/P issue (8+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:Inky, litho, Euroliberal, mattes, anonymousredvest18, podster, lemming22, Diaries
                            is one of the most important in the world at this time. Without this issue, the Iraq war would never have happened, and the likely coming Iran war would never have any hope of happening.

                            I hope you'll continue to engage in this discussion--it is a very important one to the future of our country.

                            hyperbolic much....damn and look at all those upraters.! and some I/P regulars!!!!

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            moon responds:

                            false (0 / 0)
                            Without this issue (I/P), the Iraq war would never have happened,

                            US military bases in Saudi Arabia, due to oil, set off OBL. we then went to Iraq for OIL.

                            period.

                            please stop with the fake rhetoric

                            moon continues with his cogent analysis on reasons why we went to war with Iraq:

                            oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, and the MIC. Plus Bush as "wartime president" exercising expanded powers for his domestic agenda and all but insuring his re-election.

                            Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                            by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 03:44:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Well, there's no question (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              npbeachfun

                              in my mind that without the pro-Israel Neocons (Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, etc.) the Iraq war wouldn't have happened. These are the guys who did the legwork to make the war happen.

                              You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

                              by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:02:54 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  cause Bush and Cheney are (0+ / 0-)

                                just stooges of some Jews.

                                Nothing about oil, and massive infusion of money for the Military Industrial Complex which Jews have very little to do with. and 4 or 5 other reasons, none of which have anything to do with Israel, cause I thought that's what we were talking about, Israel, not some American Jews who, according to you, are really the seat of power, and who have Bush and Cheney on a puppet string. You have all the inside knowledge , all the scoop on how it went down. It couldn't have been the oil! We would have gone into Iraq even if it didn't have oil, right! Cause some Jews would have wanted to anyway. You're not just projectiong the typical tripe onto some Jews, are you now

                                wow! this kind of tripe still exists!

                                It wasn't Cheney hankering for the war, more than anyone else, it was some Jews! Cheney didn't do any "legwork" whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean! Oh yeah it was "the Jews", not Cheney who cooked the intelligence at the CIA. right you fucker.

                                shocking

                                the Jews did it, is basically what you're saying, playing right into every myth and stereotype there is. Good job.

                                you're careful in what you say on this issue?? I beg to differ

                                got it!

                                have one more chance to clarify, cause I'm feeling generous today.

                                Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                                by Keith Moon on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:59:54 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Facts keep getting in the way. (0+ / 0-)

                                  Feith was the guy who ran the OSP. He came up with the pro-war intel. Rice said he reps Israel: "Thanks Doug, but when we want the Israeli position we'll invite the ambassador."

                                  Perle did paid work for Israel directly, right. He was the head of some defense policy board.

                                  From Wiki:

                                  Perle chaired a study group that included Douglas Feith and David Wurmser that produced a strategy paper for the incoming Likud Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" [2].
                                  (...)
                                  It also stated the removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq should be a key objective for the Israeli state.

                                  Wolfowitz was the architect of the war. He lived in Israel for a year. He was fully on board with clean break.

                                  Many political analysts consider Wolfowitz a neoconservative and possibly a Straussian; he is known for his passionate advocacy of Israel and as an architect and staunch supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
                                  (...)
                                  Other areas where Wolfowitz disagreed with the administration was in his opposition to attempts to open up dialogue with the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and to the sale of Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft to Saudi Arabia. "In both instances," according to Mann "Wolfowitz demonstrated himself to be one of the strongest supporters of Israel in the Reagan administration."[citations needed]
                                  (...)
                                  On April 16, 2002 the National Solidarity Rally for Israel was called in Washington to oppose US pressure on the government of Ariel Sharon. Wolfowitz was the sole representative of the Bush administration to attend, speaking alongside Former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani.

                                  All links are from Wikipedia articles on the respective guy.

                                  You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

                                  by Opakapaka on Mon May 14, 2007 at 05:18:52 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                      •  found the link opaka (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        npbeachfun

                        see below

                        Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                        by Keith Moon on Sun May 13, 2007 at 03:58:44 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  welcome to realpolitik... (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    npbeachfun, Opakapaka

                    and, from a longtime activist, this piece of advice:
                    Do not fall for the cult of personality(ies). This blog needs us more than we need it!

          •  We're talking about influencing Democratic (7+ / 0-)

            Party policy--that is, the party which hopefully will soon be sculpting our nation's I/P policy. DKos is the primary voice of the party's grassroots--and as such, has some influence.

            If we shut down the I/P debate here, that influence will disappear, and it will be much easier to ignore the grassroots and maintain the current one-sided policy.

            You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

            by Opakapaka on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:47:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Only 3% want them banned. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        npbeachfun

        Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

        by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:30:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sure... (0+ / 0-)

          ...of course, this is not a democracy - it is a blog owned by Markos and run by him and his employees.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:43:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think Hunter channels Markos. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rusty Pipes, npbeachfun

            Does that explain things?

            Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

            by mattes on Sun May 13, 2007 at 01:52:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fair enough... (0+ / 0-)

              ...but I cannot imagine that Hunter would take any action without Markos endorsing it, or that if he did, Hunter would be long for Daily Kos.

              Whatever decision is made, assuming that there is one, will require Markos' assent.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:15:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  There are strong supporters of both sides. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      npbeachfun

      Both can be quite hardheaded about trying to get their point across.  There are some (if not a majority) that want to see a doable peace between both I and P.  

      It's an interesting dynamic, and may mirror what's going on in the Middle East as we speak.

      Don't blame me, I support Dennis! http://kucinich.us

      by rjones2818 on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:01:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the info. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        UniC, mattes, Turkana, npbeachfun

        It would be nice to see some constructive dialogue between the two sides rather than counterproductive fighting.

        •  I have link to 5 dairies above (0+ / 0-)

          "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

          by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:07:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, you do (0+ / 0-)

            ...and two of your links go to my diaries, so I'm going to have a few things to say.

            First of all, the various diaries you link to do not explore how to shut down I/P diaries, as you claim, but how we can keep them going. That's the purpose of my diary, of Litho's, of the others. So frankly, your framing of this is off by a few miles.

            Second, both Litho and myself discuss, reasonably cogently, I think, the abuse of ratings that is a large reason why these diaries produce such an abusive discourse. And here, of course, we come to you, as demonstrated by your uprating of this comment, and this one, out of hidden comments, where they belong.

            Let me very politely suggest that these diaries could very well go on, provided the community steps up and exercises its moderating roles without fear or favor.  That's what this entire discussion is about - the breakdown, through partisanship, of the ratings system that works elsewhere in reining in vituperative contributions. You seem to, with this diary and various other contributions, such as this one and this one, to not see that you may have played a role in getting us to where we are. That's unfortunate, because many of the participants, and I again point to both Litho and myself, have acknowledged their own role in this.

            Me, I really think we're on the mend here. The last few days have seen some very productive and, I think, notably rancor-free discussion. So, frankly, I both disagree with your diary's premise, analysis and conclusions, and have to point out that you have yet to acknowledge any role in derailing the discourse; such as, say, with your own ratings behavior. So no, it's not about squashing, as you aver, the discussion of peace, it's about making a deeply flawed dialogue on this site better.

            Still all about electing Democrats.

            by MBNYC on Mon May 14, 2007 at 06:32:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  thank for stopping by- (0+ / 0-)

              as I have already stated see no reason to talk to any member thats aim is to Shut-Down Peace Talks-

              Shalom

              "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

              by npbeachfun on Mon May 14, 2007 at 03:16:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course you don't (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                jhritz

                want to talk about your ratings abuse. Unfortunately, I intend to keep doing so.

                So tell me, why'd you uprate the comment by Litho that compared me to Idi Amin? Tell me, npbeachfuns.

                Still all about electing Democrats.

                by MBNYC on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:24:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agreed because.... (0+ / 0-)

                  I think at times, you behave in a condescending, cruel, bullying manner: those are character trades I find in this administration. They would also prefer to talk about what happened in the past, then deal with today.  

                  Ask yourself- why do you feel the need to get answers from me if you worked things out with Litho: I hope you aren’t harassing every member that up-rated that comment.

                  Please let this go- I will say this once again We are not Enemies we are Opponents- There is a Difference

                  "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                  by npbeachfun on Tue May 15, 2007 at 12:23:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Waitaminnit (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jhritz

                    ..you're comparing me to the Bush administration because I'm calling you on your repeated ratings abuse? Including the times you uprated Litho's various jihads out of hidden comments, like the time he called me a fascist?

                    That's arch.

                    Feel free to let the contrition begin at any point now, npbeachfun, whichever one of you I'm talking to right now. Please re-familiarize yourself with the FAQ as it relates to ratings. Nor am I harassing you - you called me out in this diary, twice, both in error, as a member of the 'patrol' you assert wants to ban these diaries. My condescension or cruelty isn't at issue here.

                    Have a good day.

                    Still all about electing Democrats.

                    by MBNYC on Tue May 15, 2007 at 01:20:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We are not braking any rules by sharing IDs (0+ / 0-)

                      would you rather have own accounts?
                      Just think we could up-rate and TR the same comments...
                      Your side should love the Idea of ID sharing, it gives us less power-

                      If there is Nothing about me (us) that you like or agree with at lest this should make you happy....

                      "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                      by npbeachfun on Tue May 15, 2007 at 03:50:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        npbeachfun

                        I don't assert any rule-breaking, and if there is, it's none of my business anyway. I just found it odd that in one comment, you aver you're a man, in another, you talk about wearing skirts at a Catholic High School.

                        Funky school.

                        And like I said, all I would like to hear from you is that you'll be more discriminating with your ratings, and I say that not claiming perfection myself. Deal?

                        Still all about electing Democrats.

                        by MBNYC on Tue May 15, 2007 at 04:26:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  no (3+ / 0-)

      there have been uncountable diaries demonizing israel, and very few discussing how peace is to be established. a pernicious troll appeared, and began posting demonizing diaries, day after day, until it was finally banned for consistent copyright violations. then, it began reappearing under new uids, and it began recruiting others- with the sole purpose of continuing to demonize israel, harass the admins, and make it that much more difficult for the well-intentioned on both sides to discuss i/p. the admins are fed up, and are considering drastic measures.

    •  Im sorry= (0+ / 0-)

      This might not be the best place to start-
      Kos will post all the rules after everything is completed

      "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

      by npbeachfun on Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:04:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, this is hyperbole. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      They are considering banning both sides of I/P, or making stringent community rules but this idea that the Palestinian side is banned or will be banned is hyperbolic hooey.

      How did I live without him?

      by Pumpkinlove on Sun May 13, 2007 at 11:46:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  it's no joke (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    unfounded, MBNYC, zemblan

    hunter has a life. the banned troll has been wasting too much of hunter's time.

    if the admins have to ban i/p, or anyone who appears to be that banned troll, or that banned troll's surrogates, that troll is wholly responsible.

    i/p is an important issue, and it would be nice if people could discuss it with rationality and honesty. there's been a distinct lack of both. the banned troll, and those associated with him, have made it much worse. if the admins decide to ban i/p, that will be the banned troll's final dk legacy.

  •  I think it is misleading... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cecrops Tangaroa, Turkana, MBNYC

    ...and injurious towards Hunter and the other site admins to imply that the "proclamation" has been issued; as of now, no such decision has been made, although one is forthcoming, supposedly.

    I'm also not sure that repeatedly trying to get into Daily Kos after being banned is something that is illegal, much less something that would actually interest law enforcement.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Sun May 13, 2007 at 09:58:55 AM PDT