Daily Kos

Diesel Hybrid Vehicles: What is POSSIBLE

Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:56:13 AM PDT

There's a thread over at one of my favorite biodiesel forums, Biodiesel Infopop, about a 35 MPG diesel hybrid SUV developed by students who transformed a Chevy Equinox, using off-the-shelf parts. As a biodiesel industry guy, I see stuff like this all the time- you may want to check out Challenge X, to learn more about these kinds of things. They illustrate what is possible, and indeed, not that difficult, considering who's doing it with what parts.

(stroll with me below the fold...)

So, if college students can make a 35 MPG SUV out of a readily available vehicle, using stuff you and I can easily buy, car companies should be able to do even better, with their supply chains, their economies of scale, their teams of brilliant engineers and everything, right?

Here's their response to the mere threat of legislation mandating 35 MPG for cars (forget SUVs) by 20-friggin-20 (13 years from now), from a recent CNN article:

The U.S. Senate Commerce Committee Tuesday approved a bill that would raise the passenger fleet automotive fuel standard to an average 35 miles per gallon by 2020...

Major automakers including Toyota Motor Corp., General Motors Corp.and Ford Motor Co.oppose the bill, saying the proposed standard would represent too steep a rise and be too costly to achieve.

Well, that's just pure and simple B.S.

I've ridden in an 80 MPG (plug in option) diesel hybrid made with off-the-shelf parts, pictured above. It was designed by San Diego State University engineering students. I'm sure every one of them knows they could do much, much more, given the resources of an automotive company.

I know for a fact that 80 MPG is achievable RIGHT NOW, without ridiculous expense, nor undue hardship, for automobiles. And we know that 35 MPG is achievable RIGHT NOW as well for SUVs and light trucks. Those should be the benchmarks. Give the auto companies 2 years, not 13, to hit the same goals that college kids have already achieved- that should at least give them time to find these kids on the internet and hire them.

Then go further. If we can achieve 80/35 now, let's shoot for 100/50 within 5 years, and 130/80 within the 13 years that congress likes. Imagine how much less fuel we'd all use if cars were getting 130 miles per gallon!

And why stop there? We could keep going until we reach the 256 MPG standard that has already been achieved by VW in a prototype that wasn't even hybrid, but was, of course, diesel (pictured above).

Go even further. Truck companies and the military are experimenting with diesel hybrid technology on 18-wheelers. Those trucks typically get between 4-7 MPG. Hybrid technology has already been demonstrated to be working in these types of vehicles, as shown in a recent issue of Biodiesel Magazine. I think we could more than double that, and achieve at least a 10 MPG standard within the next 5 years, and 15 MPG in heavy trucks by the much-talked-about 2020 deadline. There is absolutely no doubt that the effect from such a progression would be profound!

SPREAD THE WORD. WORK FOR CHANGE. LOBBY YOUR REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS WITH THIS INFORMATION AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION. RUN FOR OFFICE. TOGETHER, WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!

p.s. You can see the myspace page for the Rose-Hulman students and this project here.

p.p.s. To read my other two Daily Kos diaries on this subject, written a while back, see here and here.

Tags: hybrid vehicles, diesel, fuel economy, energy, biodiesel (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 48 comments

  •  Tip Jar (29+ / 0-)

    Tip: it would be best to not use this diary/thread as a forum for discussing the perceived pros and cons of biodiesel. I'll be the first to admit that some biodiesel is more sustainable than others. This diary is about increasing fuel economy through a ready and available technology.

    Idea:No Blood 4 Oil Action:I use Biodiesel site blog

    by KumarP on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:48:12 AM PDT

  •  The only way I'll ever buy a 'new' car... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Scoopster, sdgeek, JeffW

    Is if it's an affordable biodiesel hybrid.  Otherwise, I plan on keeping on buying fuel efficient second-hand vehicles and keeping them well-tuned.

    Suck on that Detroit.

    Sean

  •  Cummins is on board (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wondering if, aztecraingod

    My guess is that the Clinton campaign will come up with a plan to deal with spontaneity. -Charlie Cook

    by waitingforvizzini on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:54:39 AM PDT

  •  I absolutely agree (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    KumarP

    However, that kid project may not be the best example in the world: Team members estimate that the crossover SUV will now get about 35 mpg.  This is easy to measure--why didn't they?

    Also, the stock vehicle gets 25 mpg.  35 mpg from there is a great improvement (if true), but 25 mpg is hardly typical SUV mileage.  It would be more honest to say they used a regular car.

  •  totally excellent adventure to reality n/t (0+ / 0-)

    rec'd.

    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

    by MarketTrustee on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:56:22 AM PDT

  •  Oh yeah (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ablington

    Forgot to mention: there's a film called "Who Killed the Electric Car" that is absolutely amazing. One revelation is what happens when a super genius little old inventor dude creates a super battery.

    I wrote a blog entry about it here.

    Idea:No Blood 4 Oil Action:I use Biodiesel site blog

    by KumarP on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:57:56 AM PDT

  •  I've never understood why... (0+ / 0-)

    they didn't use diesel for current hybrids, or at least as on option.  Diesel is perfect for low RPM, constant speed that's best for running an electric generator, hence why industrial generators are all diesel.

    When we say worst president in history, we're including the next 200 years as well

    by askyron on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:58:41 AM PDT

  •  IF...these High MPG... (0+ / 0-)

    ...biodiesel conversions were actually achieved using existing off the shelf parts and the work carried out at reasonable cost/return on investment there is a huge opportunity for start-up businesses and I want in on it...but first I want to drive one of these converted SUVs to make sure the test drives weren't all downhill terrain.  I'm enough of a skeptic to think if all this stuff is really true potential investors would be beating down the doors of these schools for the experiment data. In this day/age of peak-oil, $4.00/gallon (increasing as we doodle) petrol, obviously has 'demand' stamped all over it...why would these quick-fix opportunities be left hanging out in right field with no takers?
    Just asking.

    Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

    by kalihikane on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:19:15 AM PDT

    •  You are assuming (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wondering if

      a reasonable cost/return, which doesn't exist.

      The Toyota Camry can be purchased as a hybrid.  The gas mileage quoted goes from 24 to 38 miles per gallon.  If you drive 12,000 miles per year.  How much does gas have to cost to recover the $5,000 purchases price difference?  (At $3/gallon it is 9 years, not counting the time value of money...)

      The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

      by deathsinger on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:29:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are any of these hybrids made for rural? (0+ / 0-)

    Are any of these hydrids fuel saving for over 35MPH?
    My brother, who is an auto dealer, says that they are great for city driving, but in the rural country, they are not that efficient.

    And as an example, my co worker wanted to go hybrid. He lives about 10 miles from here. So he proudly drove to work and it was only when he got right in front of the office and was turning in and had slowed his speed did the electric kick on. So he got about 500 yards tops out of it. He was very disappointed.

    I'm voting for the Democrat! End of story!

    by BarnBabe on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:22:50 AM PDT

    •  Depends on the drive system (0+ / 0-)

      A typical hybrid gets a lot of its efficiency punch by eliminating inefficiencies caused with city driving patterns - stop-and-go traffic where your engine revs and idles a lot.

      You can tweak hybrids for other purposes, though.  Ford's Escape is apparently tuned for more endurance, and Honda is tuning most of their hybrids for performance enhancement.  Denver uses hybrid biodiesel buses right now; they're powered by GM, and supposedly use a pickup-sized diesel engine coupled to some batteries.

      Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

      by Phoenix Rising on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:33:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Midwest Renewable Energy Fair (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    KumarP

    June 15-17, Custer, WI
    http://www.the-mrea.org/...

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:23:10 AM PDT

  •  Diesel/Hybrid Locomotives (0+ / 0-)

    Locomotives have been hybrid (in a sense) for the last 60 years, with a diesel generator powering electric traction motors.  The only piece missing to make true hybrid locomotives is regenerative braking and power storage.  There are already hybrid switching locomotives, which produce these benefits.  One of the advantages of hybrid locomotives is that they can use cheap, heavy battery technologies because they need the weight for traction.  GE has a Diesel-Hybrid locomotive in the works.

    http://ge.ecomagination.com/...

    •  Electric/electric hybrid locomotives (0+ / 0-)

      OK a bit of a misnomer but the Pendolino trains used by Virgin Rail in the UK are electric traction run from overhead cables. The hybrid bit is that they use reversed motors as the brakes so power is fed back into the grid as they are applied.

      Virgin's TV ads boast that this saves enough energy to make 2.6 billion cups of teas a year. (Click on "new TV ads" and then bottom icon of a kettle after following link to see cartoon)
      http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/...

      "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

      by londonbear on Wed May 16, 2007 at 06:53:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Already Designed (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Rising

    GM's Opel Astra shown in January, 2005 touts a 25% fuel economy improvement with their hybrid. No GM diesels are legal to own in the US.

    Citroen showed its C--Métisse Diesel Hybrid Sports Car in September, 06.

    Ford showed its Reflex diesel hybrid mock-up in January, 06.

    PSA Peugeot Citroën Unveils 69MPG Diesel Hybrid Prototypes also in January, 2006.

    The hybrids deliver average combined city and highway fuel consumption of 3.4 liters per 100 kilometers (69 mpg US), with 90 grams of CO2 emitted per kilometer—a tank-to-wheel record for compact cars, the most popular segment in Europe. This is about 25% better than a similar vehicle equipped with a gasoline hybrid system, or as much as a liter per 100 kilometers in combined city and highway driving.

    Mercedes S-Class Diesel-Hybrid

    Toyota Unveils Hybrid X in Geneva

    However, I feel that the new Tier 2 Bin 5 epa standards have killed the market for all but the most expensive diesel passenger cars in the US. Naturally, big fat SUVs and trucks are allowed ten times the amount of NOx as the passenger cars are under Tier 2 Bin 5. Maybe we'll see hybrid GM Yukon fatties on the road getting 23 mpg.

  •  Love. this. diary. (0+ / 0-)

    Outstanding. Thank you for putting it together.

  •  ANYTHING is Possible. This is AMERICA Damnit! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    howd

    Obama For America (Wesley Clark for VP or Sec. DEF. or ...

    by TekBoss on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:34:07 AM PDT

  •  Conversion Question, Loremo (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for a really important post on an important but overlooked subject.

    I have a diesel VW pickup (1981).  They typically get 40+ mpg without modification.  Is it possible to convert to hybrid power, and if so, where could one get more information. It seems like the potential is there for 60 mpg in a truck.

    By the way, many models of vehicles sold in the US are on the world market in diesel versions.  The Toyota Yaris now sold in the US can be purchased in Europe in a diesel station wagon version (Yaris Verso) that gets 50+mpg.  When Chrysler and Renault were partners the original Caravan was available in France with a Renault diesel that got 35 mpg.

    More and more the world runs on diesel, very efficiently.  Its exclusion from the US consumer vehicle market is a huge scam.

    For inspiration, check www.loremo.com.

    The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein -- best book ever, I nominate for a Nobel Prize!

    by xaxado on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:40:29 AM PDT

  •  It is a matter of will, not lack of understanding (0+ / 0-)

    or basic technology that stymies us.

    The reciprocating internal combustion engine design has been around for decades.

    It exists today because its componentry can be fabricated of cheap, basic materials.  And the technologies are proven and optimized for rapid manufacturing.

    No auto company wants to deviate from that comfortable paradigm.  To say nothing of embracing technology that has the potential of erasing after-sales profit centers like repair parts and services.

    'Who Killed the Electric Car' must have chilled the Auto industry when they found that a full electric vehicle would instantly end any maintenance services like oil changes, drastically reduce servicing of brakes and power trains.

    Any reengineering of the automobile must include ending the 'arms race' of over building the frame of the car for collision protection.  The heavier cars get, the higher the consumption of fuel.  The justification of building heavier frames for protection in collision only results in even heavier frames as a counter measure.

    Passenger cars should be built like airplanes or race cars:  lightweight, safety cages surrounded by aerodynamic exteriors of light-weight materials providing energy absorbing crumple zones.

  •  Hybrid buses (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hypersphere01

    Diesel-electric hybrid buses have been trialled in London since February last year. These were single deckers
    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/...

    This year in March double deck versions started trials.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/...

    "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

    by londonbear on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:57:03 AM PDT

    •  Should have included (0+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hypersphere01

      The current hybrid buses are powered by a small diesel engine and electric power, thereby cutting emissions by up to 40 per cent per bus. The technology works through a battery pack providing power to the wheels via an electric motor. The battery pack is kept at optimum power by a diesel Euro IV engine, keeping the battery charged. When the vehicle brakes, energy which would normally be wasted is also recycled and used to charge the battery. Thanks to continuous charging of the battery, the vehicle can meet the existing range of a conventional diesel bus

      From second link

      "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

      by londonbear on Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:02:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bring it on (0+ / 0-)

    My 1980 VW diesel rabbit gets 50 plus mpg. Not to brag but this was done almost thirty years ago.....why not bring on the tesla turbine or similar technology that is over 100 years old?

    Those that would give up essential liberty, for temporary security, deserve neither.-Benjamin Franklin

    by winchelenator on Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:33:19 PM PDT

    •  Tesla Turbines have a lot... (0+ / 0-)

      ...of internal drag. That is how they function,
      using boundary layer friction to impart motion to
      the runners. Easy to make and very simple, but to
      use them as gas turbines, you need to use the
      same expensive alloys that the precision axial-
      flow turbines use.

      Still, it would be interesting...

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight.

      by JeffW on Wed May 16, 2007 at 01:42:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Great American Car Culture . . . (0+ / 0-)

    . . . is doomed.  And in the very near future, at that.

    Nonetheless, strides in gasoline mileage remain desirable, IMO.

    Although others make excellent arguments that the quicker the demise of the the GACC, the better.

  •  How do you replace the crappy cars? (0+ / 0-)

    I do think there has been a study (although I don't know for certain) that basically found that the highest polluting and most in-efficent cars were those owned by people living close to the poverty line - all of these ideas of bio-diesel and hybrids and bio-diesel hybrids are great, but how do you get them down the pipeline to people living close to the poverty line?  Because if you can accelerate that, it would be even better than just a few high end people owning them, or even the middle class owning them

    •  2 ways (0+ / 0-)

      On the "new" side, there's really no reason you can't make diesel economy cars. They're very popular in Europe.

      On the "used" side, while they are sometimes hard to find, old diesel VWs and Mercedes from the 60s, 70s, and 80s still work great for a lot of people, and can cost somewhere between free and a couple thousand bucks.

      Idea:No Blood 4 Oil Action:I use Biodiesel site blog

      by KumarP on Wed May 16, 2007 at 02:28:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  what I'd like to see most at this point (0+ / 0-)

    is Federal legislation requiring that all diesel motor vehicles sold in the USA be able to burn B100 without warranty problems and requiring that states not interfere with the sale of biodiesel fuel and diesel automobiles.

    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Fri May 18, 2007 at 01:53:23 AM PDT

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