Dr. Dean - Let Our Votes Count

Florida Governor Charlie Crist today signed an elections reform bill that moves Florida's Presidential Preference Primary up to January 29th in 2008. This puts the Florida Democratic Party and the Democratic National Committee on a collision course. DNC primary rules call for draconian penalties for any state that moves its primary up before February 5th. Potentially, Florida could lose all of its delegates to the Democratic National Convention.

Cross Posted from Florida Kossacks

Blog Florida Blue

I have blogged about this before. The first time was last November on DailyKos. More recently, I blogged about the Florida Primary Conspiracy Theory, a dubious concept at best. I have also blogged about How to Have Our Primary Cake and Eat It Too. This laid out how the FDP could avoid delegate penalties from the DNC. The technique would be to declare the January 29th primary non-binding. This would then require the FDP to hold a caucus at a later date to actually select and apportion the convention delegates. It would also have the unfortunate effect of the the Florida Democratic Party telling its members that their votes on January 29th wouldn't count.

I have come to the conclusion that this is not a cake I want to eat. Our Republican dominated state legislature did this to us. Make no mistake here, though. Many Dem legislators were just as happy to move up in the primary schedule. I know I was, and continue to be. We are the largest swing state in the country. We have more electoral votes at stake than the states going before us combined. We are much more diverse than any state going before us in this process. Floridians deserve to have their voices heard as part of the presidential nominating process.

Our own state party should not be put in the position of telling us our primary votes are not going to count. Not in Florida of all places. We have a hard enough time getting our votes to count here as it is. (Although the bill that Gov. Crist signed today also does away with touch screen voting machines (almost entirely) and provides us with a voter verifiable paper trail.) No , the state party should not put us in that position.

That puts the ball squarely in your court, Dr. Dean. As Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, your position on this dilemma counts for a great deal. Do you really want to tell Florida Democrats, of all people, that their votes won't count? After all, this was done to us by the Republican controlled Florida Legislature. The Dems couldn't have stopped this if they had wanted to. Speaking of Florida Democrats, Dr. Dean, you do recall how important their support was in your ascendancy to the Chairmanship, don't you? The early support from the Florida delegation to the DNC really got the ball rolling for you.

But, let's just get back to the basic issue here. There will be a presidential primary in Florida on January 29th. It is now the law of this state. The Democratic candidates are going to campaign here. This state supplies too much money, and holds too many electoral votes for the candidates to ignore us. The only remaining question is this:

Doctor Dean, are you going to let our votes count?

•  Tips, Spears, Flames?

  Florida Kossacks Rock

  Blog Florida Blue

  by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:21:38 PM PDT

  •  I'd never give you flames, gator

    and know how much this means to you.  This is about party discipline -- something Dems don't do very well -- and I have to believe Gov. Dean will come up with a way to provide for Floridians to have their full complement of delegates.

    Still, we're seeing a horrible trend with all these states pushing the dates up.  And they're doing it knowing the possible consequences.  There is a reason to start small and build to the larger media-saturated states -- good luck.

    by edgery on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:38:20 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for the non flames, but

      this was not a decision of the Florida Democratic Party.  It was in legislation passed by the Republican dominated Florida Legislature and signed by our new Republican Governor.

      There was nothing the Florida Democratic Party could have done about this. I hope you are right about Dr. Dean coming up with a way for our votes to count and our delegates to get seated.

      Florida Kossacks Rock

      Blog Florida Blue

      by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:51:31 PM PDT

      •  Then why did they vote for it?

        I looked at the vote count in the Senate: 37 Yeas, 2 Nays and 1 Not voting.

        If they didn't like the bill, then why not vote against it?

        by mini mum on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:44:51 PM PDT

        •  It was part of a larger

          election reform bill that included getting rid of touch screen voting machines. We're going to have a voter verifiable paper trail now.  This was not a stand alone bill.

          Florida Kossacks Rock

          Blog Florida Blue

          by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:47:09 PM PDT

•  Dr. Dean's faced with a question of pragmatism.

  Unless the Dems want to fund a later primary (caucus, etc.), which I suppose they could, this is the day the voters will have their say.  I would prefer that the voters have their say directly.

  If not, the DNC and the other funding committees should be the ones to pay for the later delegate selection process, not the voters of the state of Florida (and I live in Indiana).

  by rjones2818 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:26:31 PM PDT

  •  If they did have a caucus later

    the Florida Democratic Party would have to pay for it.

    Florida Kossacks Rock

    Blog Florida Blue

    by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:35:21 PM PDT

•  Paging Dr. Dean!

  Help us.  We, as democrats, desperately want to turn our state blue.  Please don't let anything get in our way.  

  by godislove on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:34:18 PM PDT

•  Sorry

  I'm sorry about this, but I don't want Florida deciding who the Democratic nominee is.

  It isn't just about Florida officials history of running elections (although that is something).  You're just too big to be voting that early in the primary process.  It's not fair to Florida voters to get disenfranchised, but it's not fair to smaller states for Florida to be so early in the process.

  The problem is that we can't have a workable system if individual states legislate in their own selfish interest.

  The only fair system would be one which was designed to produce competitive contests over the entire primary.  This would involve starting early with one or two small states (not necessarily always New Hampshre and Iowa), then following with two or three blocks of states in increasing order of total population.  Assignment to a block would be by lottery, but such a system would tend to keep every primary date competitive, meaning nobody gets shafted.

  This would require cooperation among the states, or possibly a constitutional amendment.

  by grumpynerd on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:35:40 PM PDT

  •  Not sure I understand

    following with two or three blocks of states in increasing order of total population

    If you mean putting the more populous states last, that's a non-starter for me.

    Just look at recent history.  Kerry wins Iowa, goes on to win in New Hampshire and it was all over.

    Now I had serious reservations about Kerry.  I had asked him at a fundraiser how he planned to win in the south.  After his face stopped getting red and his neck stopped tightening up, he said:

    If Al Gore had won New Hampshire, he'd be President of the United States.

    That did not give me a lot of comfort about Kerry's ability to effectively campaign here.  Turns out I was right.  But I thought other Floridians should have had a chance to have their say as well.

    If John Kerry had won Florida, he'd be President of the Uniterd States.

    Florida Kossacks Rock

    Blog Florida Blue

    by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:47:39 PM PDT

    •  Not necessarily

      I think there should be an initial vetting phase consisting of one or two states of manageable size, randomly chosen from the ten states in the bottom quintile say.  This would give candidates a chance to work on their organization without having to have a gazllion dollars.

      I think for each election, states should be randomly assigned a priority, then assigned to a fixed number of of carefully spaced voting dates in that order, with the provision that at no point should the nomination bet mathematically clinched.

      by grumpynerd on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:59:02 PM PDT

  •  How about a national

    primary day? I hate the idea of a front loaded primary where several states voter's don't have a say on the nominee.
    And I'm from SC.
    ~D

    by Drewid on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:01:37 PM PDT

    •  That's exactly the point

      With a national primary day, only a handful of large states matter.  And only rich candidates matter.

      I think there should be several primary dates, with states assigned by lottery.   There should also be a one or two slots up front assigned by lottery to states with low media costs.

      by grumpynerd on Tue May 22, 2007 at 03:04:48 AM PDT

•  the last thing the US need is an early FL primary

  the last thing the US needs is an early FL primary.

  Beeing a swing state and a very large state FL already has a huge influence on the race.

  Early primaries are shifting even more influence to FL.

  Nobody outside of FL wants that. Nobody outside of FL needs that.

  by cris0000 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:38:36 PM PDT

  •  Florida does ahve a huge influence

    on the general.  All th more reason to have a nominee who has been vetted in Florida.  As it stands before today, we had no voice in the nomination.

    Florida Kossacks Rock

    Blog Florida Blue

    by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:04:14 PM PDT

•  Gosh oh gee

  How many other states have moved up for this primary season?  Why don't we just ignore them as well.  Florida wasn't the first, or the biggest, to move up.  Their voters shouldn't be penalized for the fact that their legislature decided to move the primary up.

  by rjones2818 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:47:57 PM PDT

•  Agree, let the votes count

  Agreed.

  by kmccook on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:04:05 PM PDT

•  This isn't news to the states

  The delegate selection rules were issued last summer after Rules & Bylaws met:

  DNC Authority Over the Process

  Each presidential election cycle, the DNC issues Delegate Selection Rules to govern the selection, in each state, of the delegates to the National Convention. Normally those rules are adopted at the first or second full DNC meeting held in the mid-year (e.g., 2006). Under these rules, the DNC requires each State Party to develop a written plan for the selection of delegates to the national nominating Convention, and to submit that plan to the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee. The Committee reviews each plan for compliance with the Delegate Selection Rules. One of the rules governs the timing of presidential primaries and caucuses in each state.

  If a State Party’s plan does not comply with the rules, the Rules & Bylaws Committee can declare the plan in "non-compliance." Non-compliance with certain key rules-—including the timing rule-—results in an automatic, severe reduction in the number of delegates the state can send to the Convention. A plan in non-compliance for any reason also leaves the state’s delegation open to a credentials challenge at the Convention.

  Caucuses and party-run primaries are subject to the control of the national Party, the DNC, in the sense that no state law can dictate to a State Party how, whether or when to hold such a Party-run event, and no state law can make the DNC or the National Convention respect the results if the event does not conform to national party rules.

  While neither the DNC nor RNC cannot force a state to hold or not hold a primary or tell the state when to hold it but they do have the right to disregard the results of the primary.

  Blaming this on a Republican legislature is an ineffective defense.  If the Democrats couldn't amend the bill to their liking, they shouldn't have voted for it.

  Howard isn't going to change the rules for Florida.  What I know he will do is work with the state party to come up with some alternative.

  by mini mum on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:59:39 PM PDT

  •  Maybe you should read that

    to the Republican dominated Florida Legislature.  This bill also included getting rid of the touch screen voting machines.  We now have a paper trail, voter verifiable.

    And BTW, it wouldn't matter how the Dems voted on the bill.  The Rs had the votes just in their own party to pass the bill.

    You want "Howard" to do something?  Have him get his 50 state strategy into f'ing gear in Florida.  How about sending something more than 3 22 year olds.  That's not a fifty state strategy. It's an f'ing joke.

    Florida Kossacks Rock

    Blog Florida Blue

    by gatordem on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:52:51 PM PDT

    •  The Repubs are subject to the same rules

      Both Democrats and Republicans have imposed sanctions against states who schedule primaries before February 5th.  The whole purpose of the sanctions was to discourage leapfrogging.  Apparently the Florida GOP thinks the rules don't apply to them.  

      And BTW, it wouldn't matter how the Dems voted on the bill.  The Rs had the votes just in their own party to pass the bill.

      So if you can't beat them, join them?  That's f'ing stupid.

      You want "Howard" to do something?  Have him get his 50 state strategy into f'ing gear in Florida.

      I'm telling you, he's not going to bend the rules just because the Dems have their panties in a bunch.    If Howard granted the exception, the other early selection states are going to ask for changes too.  

      Democrats have 2 choices: allow delegates to be selected in the primary, and run the risk of that selection not counting, or hold another selection event, like party caucuses, leaving the primary election as a popularity contest.

      Either way, both parties are going to lose about half their delegates.  

      by mini mum on Tue May 22, 2007 at 05:07:50 AM PDT

      •  Actually, the R's are not

        subject to the same rules.  The Dems could lose all their delegates if the candidates campaign in Florida.

        The Rs have no similar rule.

        As for f'ing stupid, this was one part of a much larger election bill.  That bill just happened to get rid of touch screen voting machines.  We will now have a voter verifiable paper trail.  The Dems tried to ammend the bill so the primary would be on Feb 5th.  The ammendment failed, on a party line vote. You are damn right the Dems are going to vote for a bill that gives us a paper trail.

        Not only was your comment f'ing stupid, it was f'ing ignorant as well.

        Florida Kossacks Rock

        Blog Florida Blue

        by gatordem on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:17:48 AM PDT

•  The whole idea

  of stringing primaries out is an obsolete throw back a century anyway. Of course the CM loves it because that makes the media the "king maker". X candidate won New Hampshire and Iowa, thy're going to get the nomination. blah!
  ~D

  by Drewid on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:10:19 PM PDT

•  Thanks GD

  for putting this out there. I was wondering what changed your mind?

  I think 2008 is shaping up to be a real disaster for presidential politics in Florida.

  Maybe we all need to start focusing on congressional races instead.

  by Tally on Tue May 22, 2007 at 04:26:20 AM PDT

  •  I came to the conclusion

    that the state party should not put itself in the position of saying Florida's Dem voters votes shouldn't count.

    If that does turn out to be the case, it shouldn't be because the FDP did it. I hope our votes actually count.

    Florida Kossacks Rock

    Blog Florida Blue

    by gatordem on Tue May 22, 2007 at 04:59:08 AM PDT