Daily Kos

Does Counterpunch.org have any credibility left at all?

Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:43:32 AM PDT

I've had my issues with Counterpunch.org's allegedly progressive pundit Alexander Cockburn over the years, but I think he's finally completely jumped the shark. Talk about strange bedfellows, he's flung himself wholeheartedly into the arms of the global warming deniers.

Follow below the fold for the gory details and some responses:

Last weekend, Cockburn penned this screed against the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

He leads off with an evocative but fact-free analogy between the modern idea of carbon credits and the tenth century sale of Papal indulgences for absolution from sin.  This falls flat in two respects: First none of the many climate scientists I've known through the years views carbon consumption as "sin" but rather as a practical, real-world problem to be solved.  Second, Papal indulgences made no claim of having any physical effect - the result was purely spiritual whereas carbon credits, properly structured, have a very clear physical effect in reducing overall carbon emissions.

But from there on he leaves the precipice of the merely fact-free and plunges into the abyss of the absurd and totally false:

The modern trade is as fantastical as the medieval one. There is still zero empirical evidence that anthropogenic production of CO2 is making any measurable contribution to the world's present warming trend. The greenhouse fearmongers rely entirely on unverified, crudely oversimplified computer models to finger mankind's sinful contribution.

This is the old "models cannot reproduce everything perfectly and therefore they are of no value" fallacy.  In fact, enormous effort goes into verifying the performance of models by running them on past conditions and verifying the results relative to what really happened.  Modern general circulation models (GCMs) perform very well in these verifications.  And while it's true that 15 years ago or more the GCMs were "crudely oversimplified" that's not at all the case any more.

Furthermore, it's simply false to claim that there's "zero empirical evidence" of mankind's contribution to warming.  The function of greenhouse gasses in affecting the radiative balance of planets is very well established physics.  We understand it both on a molecular level and the macro level.  The heat budgets of not only Earth but many other planets like Venus and Mars simply cannot be explained without invoking this effect.  And that the observed increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is due to human activity is incontrovertibly demonstrated by isotopic analysis.

Then he launches into a comparison of the carbon emissions due to human activity (which he correctly points out dipped considerably during the great depression) and the total carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which has been increasing for over a century.  He concludes that:

The two lines on that graph proclaim that a whopping 30 per cent cut in man-made CO2 emissions didn't even cause a 1 ppm drop in the atmosphere's CO2. Thus it is impossible to assert that the increase in atmospheric CO2 stems from human burning of fossil fuels.

What this ignores is that the lifetime of CO2 in the atmosphere is on the order of centuries and also that while human production declined during the depression, it did not cease.  There is absolutely no reason to expect that a reduction in output like that which occurred during the depression would cause a drop in atmospheric CO2.  What one woud expect is that the second derivative of the atmospheric CO2 curve would go negative for that period of decline, as indeed it did.

He then trots out a series of discredited denialist arguments:  the urban heat island effect, the water vapor is a much bigger greenhouse gas nonsense (again ignoring the lifetime of these gasses in the atmosphere, ) etc.

He claims:

It's a notorious inconvenience for the Greenhousers that data also show carbon dioxide concentrations from the Eocene period, 20 million years before Henry Ford trundled his first model T out of the shop, 300-400 per cent higher than current concentrations.

Of course it's not an "inconvenience" at all, let alone a notorious one except in the addled minds of climate deniers.  Nobody claims that there isn't a CO2 feedback - and the Eocene was much warmer than today for a very long time.  Such extended warmth leads to outgassing from the oceans which can raise atmospheric CO2 far higher than present-day values.  Indeed that feedback, along with the water vapor feedback plays a big role in the modelling of our present and future climate.

This leads us to the current favorite silly argument among deniers: the paloclimate record shows an approximately 800 year lag of CO2 relative to temperature and therefor today's CO2 increase can't be leading temperature:

Water covers 71 per cent of the surface of the planet. As compared to the atmosphere, there's at least a hundred times more CO2 in the oceans, dissolved as carbonate. As the postglacial thaw progresses the oceans warm up, and some of the dissolved carbon emits into the atmosphere, just like fizz in soda water taken out of the fridge. "So the greenhouse global warming theory has it ass backwards," Hertzberg concludes. "It is the warming of the earth that is causing the increase of carbon dioxide and not the reverse." He has recently had vivid confirmation of that conclusion. Several new papers show that for the last three quarter million years CO2 changes always lag global temperatures by 800 to 2,600 years.

This argument is so illogical it's hard to know where to begin ...

Yes, in the past temperature did lead atmospheric CO2.  That's because the primary forcing in past warming phases was changes in the Earth's orbit.  As deniers love to point out, there were no SUVs to pump carbon into the atmosphere back then.  But so what?  The fact is we are pumping carbon into the atmosphere today.  So why would anyone expect CO2 to lag temperature now, given this entirely novel forcing?  What the paleo record tells us, however, is that as the Earth warms in response to anthropogenic forcing, there will be feedbacks which amplify this effect.

Anyway, I hope anyone here who considers using Counterpunch.org as an authoritative source for any story reconsider that in light of this demonstration of Cockburn's complete lack of critical thinking ability.

Tags: global warming, Climate Change, counterpunch, environment (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 67 comments

  •  Tip Jar (28+ / 0-)

    This crap really bugs me.

    "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

    by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:36:23 AM PDT

  •  No. (6+ / 0-)

    "Every goddamn Republican in the country is a traitor." -- Perry Logan.

    by Andy Lewis on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:36:42 AM PDT

    •  But is that the point of counterpunch? (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC, jxg, chuckvw, ybruti

      Cockburn is a rabble rouser.  Counterpunch is not unlike dkos except that the moderation is not so moderate and you have to make it past the editor -- you'll find all sorts of stuff, of varying levels of literary and editorial quality, and you have to sort it out for yourself.  Cockburn going off on global warming is not a reason to say that counterpunch sucks always and forever.  That's just silly..

      •  They claim to be a "newsletter" (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        debedb, esquimaux, MBNYC

        publishing "news articles."

        And Cockburn is one of the principals of the operation.  Doesn't that call for at least a passing attempt at truthfulness?

        "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

        by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:16:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I dunno... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          chuckvw

          I felt a bit more like you did (though I've consistently enjoyed some of the writers, and Cockburn poking at Hitchens is always fun in a catfighty sorta way) before I heard Cockburn talking about Jill Johnston back in their Village Voice days.  Johnston -- if you haven't read her -- is this over the top stream of conciousness feminist (of the most doctrinare and yet clinically bipolar sort), who is occassionally grandly truthful and occassionally hateful.  But his attitude, while taking all that into account, had a certain real affection for her work, for the whole wild variety of the place at that time.  It gave me a little more of that cynical affection toward his own work; Counterpunch publishes people all across the spectrum out on the edge, who are trying to critique events.  It's more than a passing attempt at truthfulness, it's an earnest attempt at it -- but it's not trying to be the NYT, either.  All of them -- and Cockburn himself -- misfire, and sometimes badly.

      •  CounterPunch - like kos only with less (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jhritz

        fact checking.

        "Every goddamn Republican in the country is a traitor." -- Perry Logan.

        by Andy Lewis on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:52:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Cockburn is not a 'rabble rouser', he's a liar. (0+ / 0-)

        I think the real point of counterpunch is to distract and discredit the progressive movement.

  •  I don't agree with Cockburn (4+ / 0-)

    in this instance, but I think I probably enjoy him for the very reasons that you dislike him.  Come on, do we really want sacred cows?  I'm as liberal as they come, but sometimes I admit to growing a little tired of offense being taken if we question the orthodoxy...and yes, we are as capable as the right wingers of turning our political causes into something approaching religious fervor.

    •  There's a difference (8+ / 0-)

      between sniping at sacred cows and blithely repeating bald-faced lies.

      "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

      by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:45:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not to Cockburn. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        acerimusdux, jxg, devtob, Feanor

        He is a liar of the first order. It only becomes apparent when the reader is familiar with the subject. Otherwise he sounds quite sane.

        The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

        by NCrefugee on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:18:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you can't say that (0+ / 0-)

        Bald faced lies?  Does anyone understand scientific theory? No one can say the climate control study paper that concluded CO2 was driving global warming is a FACT...it's a hypothesis which a lot of people agree with.

        Perhaps one day the consensus will switch and say that CO2 is an effect of warming & not a cause; and the cause is actually solar activity.  It doesn't really matter to me, as long as it scares people & corporations into cleaning up their wasteful, poisonous habits.

        Counterpunch is an opinion journal; why is everyone getting their panties in bundle?  It's not like the original poster reads it except to find something to grind his axe on...

        •  I enumerated several of his bald-faced lies (0+ / 0-)

          for example:

          There is still zero empirical evidence that anthropogenic production of CO2 is making any measurable contribution to the world's present warming trend.

          and

          Thus it is impossible to assert that the increase in atmospheric CO2 stems from human burning of fossil fuels.

          and

          It's a notorious inconvenience for the Greenhousers that data also show carbon dioxide concentrations from the Eocene period, 20 million years before Henry Ford trundled his first model T out of the shop, 300-400 per cent higher than current concentrations.

          There are many more things in his screed which are gross distortions at best.

          You write:

          Perhaps one day the consensus will switch and say that CO2 is an effect of warming & not a cause; and the cause is actually solar activity.  It doesn't really matter to me, as long as it scares people & corporations into cleaning up their wasteful, poisonous habits.

          But that's not possible at all, since the facts contradict this hypothesis, as I pointed out in the diary.  No amount of wishing will make a contrafactual hypothesis anything other than garbage.

          "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

          by jrooth on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:49:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Fuck Counterpunch (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DH from MD, MBNYC, jhritz

    and Cockburn.  They have falsely reported many stories, such as Rove's indictment, and this just shows them vomiting up right-wing anti-science talking points.

  •  Has Counterpunch.org ever had any credibility? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jrooth, MBNYC, jhritz

    St. John the Maverick: patron saint of liars, lobbyists, and Bushes.

    by DH from MD on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:00:46 AM PDT

  •  maybe a tangent here (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    canyonrat, litho, chuckvw, jrooth, mightymouse

    But criticism of global warming from the left reminds me of Fidel Castro's recent critique of biofuels. He argued that it would take corn out of the mouths of the poor and into the SUV's of the rich.

    Cockburn can be a contrarian blowhard, but global warming can be understood politically in a context larger than our country's left/right dichotomy. The global north/south, east/west differences in development rates, the possibility that global warming mandates could just get folded in to larger corporate free trade policies.

    So solutions are not going to come about at some harmonious convergence. But Cockburn in denying a problem here does not seem to be elucidating the challenges we face.

    •  There are a lot of problems surrounding biodiesel (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      esquimaux, Randolph06

      Consuming or displacing food crops is one.  Deforestation for the purpose of planting biodiesel crops is another.

      I have no problem with valid criticisms like that, even if they are aimed at ideas I think are basically good.  What Cockburn does here is something very different, though.  He's not making a valid criticism, he's spouting lies.

      "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

      by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:11:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've thought similar things. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chuckvw, Randolph06

      The potential abuse of third world nations by first world states is HUGE.   One can easily see how this will be a paternatistic way for America and the US to interfere with the poor.  It's good way to dismantle industrial work forces as well.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:19:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  America and the EU. (0+ / 0-)

        scuse me.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:38:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  the point of the counterpunch article (0+ / 0-)

        Thanks for getting us to the real topic that should be discussed.  The Cockburn article was the first one I have read that is warning of the possible abuses of the Carbon neutral system.  Let's give him so credit eh? So what if it was written because Cockburn doesn't thing CO2 is an issue--the discussion needs to happen before the carbon trading system is irrectractable.

        I see it as a huge scam for wall street types to get a cut of money for doing nothing.  It also puts the onus and guilt on everyday people for their emission outputs while rich corporations can buy off the pressure from the public and get a healthy tax bonus at the same time.  Meanwhile they don't have to actually do anything about their poisonous emissions.

  •  Alexander Cockburn's credibility is long gone (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NCrefugee, chuckvw

    but I'm not sure that can be extended to Counterpunch.

    Their editing may leave quite a bit to be desired, but I've often found things there that prove to be useful and informative.  I wish they would tighten up, because their flaws make it harder to cite them with much confidence, but if you approach them with the right degree of skepticism you can still get good stuff.

    Cockburn, though, jumped the shark years ago.

  •  Counterpunch is a loose collective of writers (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    canyonrat, litho, jfadden

    In fact, some of the best political writers around appear there, which is why it's one of my daily stops.

    There has always been a strain of leftist thought that sees the environmental movement as preferring butterflies and frogs to people, and, therefore, views ideas like global warming with suspicion.  I don't agree with this line of thinking, but it has been around a long time.

    Also, it was Truthout that made the bad call on the Rove indictment, not Counterpunch.  It was a mistake based on some reasonably good journalism.  I'll take an occasional error over the constant, bald-faced lying of the MSM any day.

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:30:00 AM PDT

    •  But that's the point ... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, another American

      I'll take an occasional error over the constant, bald-faced lying of the MSM any day.

      This article by Cockburn isn't a mere "error."  It's a repetition of a long series of bald-faced lies - lies that even a casual amount of fact-checking would expose.

      And Cockburn is one of the two names on the masthead of the site.  That makes him more than just some random member of a "loose collective" as far as I'm concerned.

      "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

      by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:44:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Green policy in the UK... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      canyonrat, chuckvw, jrooth, esquimaux

      ...is very NIMBY and shot though with upper middle class attitudes.  'Greenbelts' have  made it possible for upper and middle class people to drive the poor into shitty housing estates and cramped living conditions instead of building enough large houses for everyone. The land is then used by farmers for the collection of farm subsidies for producing no crops. So there is an abusive downside to apparently Green policy.  I suspect that Cockburn carries a few of these observations to the table when he's thinking of potential abuse. But yeah, denial about the effect of co2 is delusional.

      it's basic Greenhouse Effect stuff.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:47:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not a case of 'an occasional error' (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, jrooth

      it's a case of systemic, deliberate falsehoods, which are given a veneer of credibility by being couched in pseudo-leftist rhetoric.

      Agitprop?

      •  True of A. Cockburn (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC, litho, rmx2630

        Not true of other writers on Counterpunch.  This diary conflates the two, unfairly, IMO.

        www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

        by chuckvw on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:14:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You ignore his status (0+ / 0-)

          as the first of only two editors listed on the masthead.

          How can such a blatant series of lies published by the lead editor of the site not affect the credibility of the site as a whole?  If this is the standard he applies in editing this site, what reliance can one place on the fact checking of anything else published there?

          "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

          by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:28:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you know who you are talking about? (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MarkC, litho, ybruti, rmx2630, jessical

            Uri Avnery?  Patrick Cockburn? Paul Craig Roberts? Mike Whitney?  Tariq Ali? Brian Coughley?  Joe McGovern?

            No, nothing A. Cockburn writes will lead me to question their credibility.

            www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

            by chuckvw on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:52:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've frequently appreciated their writings (0+ / 0-)

              But now I have to wonder - if they're willing to be associated with a site that engages in deliberate fabrication in order to advance an agenda, do they subscribe to that policy themselves?

              I'd prefer to think they don't.

              "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

              by jrooth on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:51:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They don't. I too wish you had ... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                chuckvw

                ...blasted Cockburn without blasting Counterpunch. But I Recommended you anyway.

                Like a cyclone, imperialism spins across the globe; militarism crushes peoples and sucks their blood like a vampire. K. Liebknecht

                by Meteor Blades on Sun May 06, 2007 at 06:00:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  open minded (2+ / 0-)

                Cockburn often includes things that I would guess he doesn't necessarily agree with.  He should be commended for his inclusions rather than saying it would be better for the site if he wasn't there because he taints everyone else.

                It sometimes seems some DailyKosers long for a fascistic consensus of thought. I've seen the fire one gets if they criticise the bland heroes of the Democratic party.  But what would you guys have to talk about if the occasional Nader supporter didn't stumble in here?

                It's so boring to tow the party line blindly.  I'll stand behind Cockburn for shaking  it up, even if he does sometimes come across as a cranky old man.  HL Mencken was racist and bitchy; but he's also quite fun to read.

                •  There are certain party lines that (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  suicide blonde

                  have to be towed although I wouldn't necessarily characterize them as the positions of Democrats - primarily economic justice and egalitarian application of societal mores, codes, and laws.

                  But yes, it is EXTREMELY boring reading the same warmed-over opinion on abortion, on the War, on gays, on racism, on health care, etc.

                  Its not really a well-thought out, deliberated perspective they express just the very ordinary, predicatable rhetoric that could be summed up as anti-Fox News.  

                  If Fox News ever did a 180, half the site might seriously consider switching parties.

                  The ironic part is the carping about the MSM while those same carpers parrot pre-scripted "liberal" positions and beliefs one after another like they have a grocery check-list on-hand at all times.

                  Frankly its embarrassing and I often wonder if its a colossal joke. Look at the amount of time and effort invested by people just on DKos alone.  Invested by well-off white people who deep down have a stake in maintaing the status quo but at the same time want to alleviate some of the surface symptoms of the dystopia we live in so they can sleep a little better at night.  A dystopia they are helping manufacture.  A dystopia that couldn't stand without their contributions..

                  If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

                  by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:35:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  'Tis a shame (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Concentration Cramp

                    I wish DKos was better.  I like the idea in principle of having a place to discuss all we have read & seen.  perhaps it's speed and largeness is the problem.  too many voices--the mob of lowest common denominator overwhelming thoughtfulness.

                    The other options are small hopeless radical sites where everyone pretty much agrees that Capitalism is a sham,  there's no hope through politics, & with lots of talk about Oswald.  That can be fun for awhile, but the bullies can rule there too.

                    I'm still looking for something...(any suggestions?)

                    I kinda like Brickburner.org  And while I'll probably end up "throwing my vote away" to some 3rd party candidate, the John Edwards site ain't bad for the open-minded debate of most of the people. Their combined cynicism and optimism is touching.  You can actually convince people to think look at things from many angles.  But if Edwards gets elected and ends up pulling the same crappy compromises Bill Clinton did, you will be sure Edwards voters won't challenge him on it.

                    •  The one redeeming thing about Edwards (0+ / 0-)

                      is that he may actually base his campaign (or at least his campaign talk) around the issue of class.  Two Americas - the Haves and the Have Nots. Hes modified that now to be a reunited One America I guess.

                      As a candidate if you just want to pour over votes and position papers and all that, hes no better than any of the rest obviously.

                      But then, thats not really the issue IMO.  Think about JFK and RFK.  Were they "great" on the issues?  I can't speak from firsthand experience but all the history I've read would say no.  BUT they represented the underrepresented, the minorities, the voiceless, the forgotten.  Thats worth 10x as much as having the "right" stance on abortion.

                      JFK/RFK were in a sense a religious leaders too.  (Note that some of this can apply to Clinton too, but in a much smarmier and empty way)

                      I absolutely think its a farce to be dwelling on Presidential politics outside of finding some galvanizing force for the realities of class struggle.  Edwards definitely won't go that far, no matter what his constituency may be, but anyone who's hoping he will is a very astute student of politics lol

                      I heard that in the beginning days of his campaign Clark attracted ordinary everyday people in 04 but that the "liberal base" quickly stepped in and snuffed out their enthusiasm pretty quick-like.  I don't know, I wasn't as active an observer in 04.

                      Even the people who jump all over Paul or Kucinich or Gravel are kind of in Dream Land.  Kucinich wants to be a Yogi more than he wants to be POTUS.  One of the (many) forums on his site is called the 9/10 Forum - seeking a return to a pre 9-11 way of thinking.  That one was cooked up by his dippy wife (his fourth, incidentally).

                      Paul I like for the stance he's taken but then I don't think the Constitution "represents the highest expression of human freedom and dignity ever written".  You've gotta be pretty GI Joe to believe that if you've honestly thought it over or read any accurate histories..

                      Gravel I'd never heard of which actually highlights the funny part.  Scores of people who'd never heard of him before the debate are now fawning over him as some sudden savior.  From people in the know, they say he was a fairly "mainstream" liberal during the Nixon Years.  That may be devaluing his personal role in getting out information regarding Watergate, I dunno.  If real people get behind him thats one thing..if he supplants Kucinich as the darling of the activist communist (a position once hilariously held by the conservative Dean) thats a joke.

                      His fair tax is anything but progressive though..

                      In general, I find there is better stuff to talk about than politics.  Philosophy, new developments in alternative technology - I don't want to use the word "sustainable" since its a buzzword more than anything and artifically limits the discussion to much.

                      There is a LOT of philosophy and social theory underlying movemments like Marxism and socialism.  It starts in some ways with Hegel.

                      Here's an interesting topic for instance:

                      http://azaz.essortment.com/...

                      If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

                      by Concentration Cramp on Wed May 09, 2007 at 06:35:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  DOn't forget (0+ / 0-)

                        Ron Paul!  Who's amazing for the fact he gave a long lecture on the floor about what a scam the Federal Reserve System is and how money is totally imaginary, and how our bullying of Chavez is disingenuous.  I'm sure the rest of the Senate uses his speech time to check their emails and take a pee.

                        But Libertarians kind of frighten me. While theoretically interesting, I can't see how gov't would work with no tax money coming in.  I'm sure if I looked closer at Ron Paul, I'd find some horrible skeleton in his platform, like he want's segregation to come back or something.

                        •  One thing about Ron Paul (0+ / 0-)

                          alot of socialists worship FDR.  Ron Paul will quickly dissuade you of that notion no matter where you are on the political spectrum (Federal Reserve)

                          I think I may have mentioned it before but the Constitution is more about establishing and defending the right to hold property than any of the lofty ideals we've been indoctrinated to believe it represents.

                          His speeches, even in written form, are powerful reminders of the dialogue we SHOULD be having (in a saner world we'd be telling him hes full of shit, rather than greedily grasping for each slim morsel he tosses us).

                          If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

                          by Concentration Cramp on Sat May 12, 2007 at 09:02:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

    •  I used to go there more, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jrooth

      now I come here more.

      Cockburn's providing a platform for Bush-loving Nader was one reason.

      I don't miss it much.

      The Republicans want to cut YOUR Social Security benefits.

      by devtob on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:08:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What do you expect from Trotskites (0+ / 0-)

    rational argument?

    They never had any credibility.

  •  Alexander Cockburn (6+ / 0-)

    is some kind of hard-left Marxist - I don't think he has ever moved away from that position - who has an annoying tendency to follow his premises through to their logical extremes without realizing that doing so can lead to positions far removed from anything practical or reasonable.  (I've noticed the same tendency among libertarians and neoconservatives -- and with Cockburn's onetime colleague Christopher Hitchens, whose anti-religion views are so hard line that he abandoned any sebmlance of progressive views otherwise and signed on his support for Bush's war in the name of fighting so-called "Islamofascism".)

    To understand where I suspect Cockburn is coming from here: the Marxist "Old Left" had long held certain issues, among them the environment, to be "bourgeois" issues unworthy of serious attention by the left.  At best, in some cases the Old Left insisted that only a Marxist class-based analysis of those issues was acceptable, and treated any other explanations, especially those widely accepted by mainstream scientists, as myths or sacred cows to be punctured.  We saw this for example in the 1970s and 1980s when the hard left made a point of attacking the widely accepted understanding of overpopulation as an environmental crisis, and in doing so effectively made common cause with Julian Simon and other anti-environmentalists on the far right.  This was in fact the basis of Lyndon LaRouche's journey from hard-left Marxist to right-wing conspiracy theorist -- he decided the ecology movement was a big capitalist plot (supported by among others the British royal family and the Rockefellers) to depopulate the world of poor people, and went on a journey to the logical extremes from there, eventually winding up deep in loony conspiracy territory.  This is not to say Alexander Cockburn is necessarily on the same trajectory as LaRouche.  It's not to say he isn't, either.

    Today, global warming is a widely-accepted "meta" theory and rallying point for the environmental movement, much as overpopulation was in the 1970s.  Cockburn has environmental credentials himself, at least as a champion of hard-line "direct action" activism.  I bet anything Cockburn sees global warming as a distraction from, and maybe even antithetical to, the class-warfare centered environmental activism he would prefer.

    I'm very sympathetic to a class-based analysis myself, but also understand where it can lead if not held in check by other issues.  I'm just using this as a hypothetical example: let's say you are a big union supporter.  You take a look at how much the United Auto Workers has been decimated in recent years.  I could see where one might conclude the concern over global warming is a manufactured one whose real goal is finishing off what's left of the U.S. auto industry - and its unionized workforce.  (The same for coal mining and unionized miners, and even with the push to replace American-made, union-made incandescent light bulbs with compact fluorescents made entirely in China.)  Not saying this is where Cockburn is coming from, but it could have something to do with it.

    •  I think this might possibly be (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      canyonrat, rmx2630, jrooth

      where Alexander Cockburn is coming from:

      http://eatthestate.org/...

      He is very distrustful of Al Gore and nuclear energy.  He sees Al Gore's "global warming" warnings as Trojan Horse for a push for more nuclear power.

    •  good analysis (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      axman

      And I would point out to the original poster that the Cockburn article has the purpose of questioning the Carbon Neutral trade that is going to be forced the public.  Who cares if he wrote it because he doesn't think CO2 is an issue; the trading system is a huge issue that needs to be debated.  As far as I know, this is the first time I read an article talking about it in a critical way.

      There is much potentional for abuse and corporate tax breaks.  Also much potential for middle-men to make a killing in the way health insurance companies make huge profits  but don't actually provide any services.

    •  I'll kinda sorta go along with that (0+ / 0-)

      if you stipulate that overpopulation was/is a bougeouis backed movement that has more in common with eugenics than it does Leftist thinking.

      If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

      by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:40:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry but (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sigmarlin

    "carbon credits" are exactly like an indulgence.  Pollute all you want and then buy "offsets" to neutralize the impact.

    So the rich can go about there business as usual, for a small fee, while everybody else is forced to cutback.

    If you see that idea going anywhere positive..

    Not to mention the inevitable "loopholes" that will pop up surrounding offsets once the capitalists figure out how to scam the system (if they don't have a contingency plan in place for that already)

    If you really wanted people to take your global warming argument against Cockburn seriously, you should've written a piece about it rather than a thinly veiled anti-Counter Punch rant..

    If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

    by Concentration Cramp on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:02:20 PM PDT

    •  Bravo (2+ / 0-)

      well said.

      now you better run before the kos police come after you while screaming Naderite or Trotskyite!  You're too smart to be on here.

      •  Yeah, I've run into that (0+ / 0-)

        dkos'ers are mainly party hacks and mainstream Democrats which doesn't impress me much.

        I almost got into a discussion about Orson Scott Card today (he's basically synonomous with the tag "homophobe" on here I guess).  Kos'ers are amongst the group that validate his argument that leftists are not really for freedom of speech they disagree with (although its a pretty loose use of the term "leftist").

        As long as the guy doesn't incite violents against gays or make public comments that are beyond the pale (and there are varying thresholds there) he's entitled to say, write, and think whatever he likes.  

        Besides which, they are enamored with throwing around several articles by Card that undeniably label him a bigot (in their minds) yet when one reads these articles he comes across as a rather conflicted traditionalist. (laughably, he catches hell from both flanks).  

        I don't exactly agree with him, but no way could I defend him on here without being troll-rated as a homophobe.  And that speaks to close-mindedness that one can't even play Devil's Advocate and get a civil response

        It also speaks to why modern Democrats have no traction whatsoever in the South (prior to 06 I think they had ONE Senator down here - spaceman Bill Nelson).  It is now homophobia to entertain the notion that the term "marriage" might actually mean the institution its stood for over centuries of time.  I don't think people's personal opinion on the issue matters so much as recognizing that there is more than viewpoint out there.

        If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

        by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:17:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  amazing how people can come here, hang out (0+ / 0-)

          for a week (first post May 7), read (what?) maybe a 1/10th of what gets posted even in that one week, because even if you're here for hours every day you can't make a dent in the volume.

          and then make sweeping comments about how "dkos'ers are mainly party hacks and mainstream Democrats"

          (Don't I wish the Dem party hacks and mainstream Dems were all supporting John Edwards or Barack Obama instead of H.Clinton -- see the latest dKos straw poll where H.Clinton gets only 6% support -- and had all been opposed to the Iraq invasion back in 2003 like Kossacks were.)

          Plus, dude, I thought you were "banned from posting" -- that's what your profile thingie says. But here you are posting?

          Maybe you don't know as much about dKos as you think you do, eh? Maybe you should go ask a REAL "party hack" -- Garry South here in CA, Mark Penn in H.Clinton's campaign for two of many examples -- if they feel like "most dKos'ers are mainstream Democrats."

    •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm interested in solutions that can actually be implemented and work.  Carbon credit trading is one method by which total carbon consumption can be mitigated.  So what if some rich bastards use more carbon than me?  If I get paid for their profligacy, I can use that profit to good end.

      Sure it's possible that it gets implemented in a fucked-up way that can be scammed, but that's not an intrinsic property of the idea.  It's up to those of us who care to be vigilant in preventing that.

      "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

      by jrooth on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:01:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problem is (0+ / 0-)

        its the WRONG mentality, regardless of whether it can be policed or not.  Sure, maybe the rich won't get a huge benefit out of it on first blush but what about the working poor?

        They won't be able to afford carbon credits.  Shit, they won't be able (har har, aren't able to?) afford gasoline.

        The whole thing sucks even though it is nominally good intentioned (I do question the intentions of the people who cooked the idea up, though)

        If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

        by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:57:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not dismissing your concerns (0+ / 0-)

          Done wrong, the effect could be what you fear.  But done right I think it can be an effective tool.

          This really is an issue separate from the global warming issue - the inequality in wealth distribution in the US is the worst it has been since the gilded age and it's getting worse.  But solving that will take a lot of measures which have nothing to do with the topic of this diary.

          "There's no idea so asinine that this administration won't give it serious consideration" - Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen

          by jrooth on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:32:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good post (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            suicide blonde

            and I agree - my overarching point was simply that we need to watchful so that we don't intertwine issues like global warming with the larger economic concerns we are fighting (both in the US and globally).  Doing that works only to the advantage of "ownership"

            If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

            by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:42:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Darn can't edit (0+ / 0-)

            my other point was that I disagreed regarding the indulgences analogy. That was the weakest part of your essay IMO and should've just been omitted (the tenuous oberservation that "well, carbon emissions aren't sins..")

            If the day ends in 'y', it must be shitty

            by Concentration Cramp on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:44:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  'Nother point: conspiracy theories... (0+ / 0-)

    Wasn't Cockburn the Curmudgeon a great debunker of conspiracy theories?
    His hastily-assembled anthropogenic-global-warming denial can only be part of a humongous conspiracy nightmare of his own ... about global warming as the new religion put forward by Al Gore, the nuclear industry and others for the purpose of screwing over the rest of us.
    He closes The Nation piece with a promise to denounce the hoaxers. But I believe it hasn't come out yet. Maybe someone brought him to his senses.

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