Daily Kos

Frugal Fridays: Retirement Investing For Beginners

Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:04:40 PM PDT

Welcome to "Frugal Fridays" where we share money saving tips, discuss living frugally and generally talk about personal finance issues.  I wanted to take today to talk about retirement investing, specifically addressed towards those who have no clue how and where to start.  Originally I had planned on this diary being a basic primer on all types of investing, but as it grew, I realized that the topic of retirement savings was complex enough in and of itself for a single diary and it is a goal that everyone who hopes to stop working before they die should be working towards.  Although this may seem like a diversion from the frugal theme, I think it is rather the most natural extension.  It could be said that that living frugally is all about making every dollar you spend work harder for you, and there's no better way to put your money to work than to invest it wisely.  I am not by any means an expert in this topic, so please join in the comments with your advice and questions.  Most important: please correct me if I say something below you disagree with.  I know I have a lot to learn about this stuff and I don't want to pass on any misinformation if I can avoid it.  

In our house, it is mr. sarahnity who is a lot more interested and aware of this stuff than I am.  I've stolen freely from his money blog to write this diary.  If you are interested in more depth, check it out, there is some good stuff there.   When I first started working on this diary, I found myself taking a fair bit of time to define different financial terms, since I didn't want to confuse any reader who is not that well versed in the terminology.  Then I found Investopedia which is a good site for defining most terms you will encounter.  I've removed most of my fundamental definitions and linked to theirs instead.  They are also have some good articles there, so it would be another good spot to look for more information.  Please add links to any other good education sites you know of in the comments.  Note that I use the terms "saving" and "investing" interchangeably below.  An important part of any savings plan is choosing the appropriate investment vehicle to help grow your savings.  If you are saving your money in a box in your basement, the buying power of that money is decreasing every year and you are in essence losing money just as surely as if rats were nibbling on it.  

The sooner you get started on your retirement savings, the sooner you will be to achieve the state where you are comfortable retiring.  I cannot stress enough how important it is to start saving for your retirement the instant you get your first job.  As a matter of fact, if you have teenagers who have started working, one of the best gifts you can give is to open a Roth IRA for them (more details here).

Social Security
If you are working, you and your employer are both contributing to your social security account.  You should request a statement from the Social Security Administration that will summarize your contributions so far and let you know what your estimated benefit will be when you retire.  Once you have made the request, they will send you a new statement every year.  It's a really good idea to glance at these each year just to make sure that their records match yours.  A discrepancy in this statement could be due to a paperwork error, employer fraud or even identity theft.  All of these things are better caught and cleared up as soon as possible.

Accounts With Tax Advantages
There are two kinds of retirement accounts that have particular tax advantages: (1) employer established and contributed accounts such as 401k, 403b, SEP IRA, SIMPLE IRA or pension plans and (2) self-administered accounts such as traditional IRAs.  The amount you can contribute and the rules for when you can and must withdraw from these accounts are fairly straightforward (well, as straightforward as anything you encounter from the IRS) but the tax consequences for breaking these rules can be dire.  Educate yourself before you open any of these.  Note that if you leave your job, you may be able to take your employer administered plan and roll it over into a self-directed IRA.  This can be a very simple procedure, but there can be major tax consequences if done incorrectly.  Here is an article explaining some of the potential pitfalls.  Most of these accounts can come in one of three flavors, if you will:

  • Standard Tax Deferred:  Contributions to the account are tax deductible in the year they are made.  All gains made are tax-free.  Withdrawals are taxed at your ordinary income rate.
  • Roth:  Contributions are not tax deductible, but all gains are tax-free and all withdrawals are tax-free.  This is by far the most attractive of these options.  If your employer offers this option for your 401K plan, be sure to avail yourself of it.  If you meet the income requirements for the IRA plan, use this type of account.  If you have an existing standard IRA, and you meet the income requirements, you may be able to convert it to a Roth IRA.  You may take a big income tax hit in the year you convert, but it will probably be well worth it in the long run.
  • After-Tax:  Contributions are not tax deductible and withdrawals are taxed at your ordinary income rate, but all gains are tax-free.  

Employer Plans
Few employers these days offer traditional pension plans.  If yours is one who does, look into the details of the plan carefully.  Often they are designed so that unless you stay with your employer for many years (decades) you are not fully vested in the plan.  In today's job market that may be an unreasonable expectation, and you may want to opt out of such a plan (if that is possible).  Far more common these days is an employer will offer a 401k plan.  Ask if your employer offers a Roth version of this plan and enroll in that plan if they do.   Your employer will match your contribution up to some level.  At the very least you want to contribute enough to take advantage of the full matching.  That is just free money there for your taking.  I strongly urge you to contribute to the maximum level allowed by the IRS.  For 2007, that is $15,500 for both tax deferred and Roth accounts.  In addition, there may be an after-tax contribution allowed that some employers may offer and some employees may qualify for.  Ask your employer.

Setting Up An IRA
Before you open your account, you need to choose the financial institution that will hold it.  While it is true that you can always move your accounts to another institution if you grow unhappy with your current broker, that move can be costly in both money and effort, so it's best to put a bit of thought into this decision early on.   As your investment portfolio grows, you will probably want to keep all your accounts under one roof so it is most important to choose wisely.  Here's mr. sarahnity's blog entry on how to choose a broker, but the gist of his advice is to stay away from high fee old style houses and pick either a discount full-service house (like Schwab or Vanguard) or an ultra-low cost house if you only need a limited set of services (like E-Trade or Ameritrade).

Building a Balanced Portfolio
How your IRA is invested is completely your decision, limited only by the types of funds that are offered by your financial institution.  For your 401k, your employer will probably offer a variety of funds and you will have to decide which you want to invest in.  The first thing every financial advisor ever says is that you must maintain a balanced portfolio.  When you ask what this balance should be, they start talking about how it depends on your desired rate of return, what your time frame is and how much risk you can afford and soon I feel like I'm in a Peanuts cartoon because all I hear is the "whaa-whaa-whaa" sound that adults make when they are talking (except in this case it sounds more like "smallcapslargecapsbondsTbillsemergingmarketsindexfunds").  All I wanted was a simple set of instructions to follow without having to do much research.  Financial institutions have finally figured there are a lot of people like me and many now offer just the instrument for those of us whose investing motto is "don't ask, don't tell": target lifecycle/retirement mutual funds.  You buy into a fund that is designed for people who want to retire in a given year (e.g., 2020, 2025, 2030, etc).  This fund balance is maintained by the managers and over time it is weighted to be more conservative as you approach retirement age.  Kossack sipples (who also does a diary series on personal finance) wrote an entire diary discussing these funds a few weeks ago.

If you want to have a bit more control over your portfolio, mr. sarahnity wrote a blog with some more detailed advice for  the starting investor.  Here are his recommendations in brief:

If you have less than $6K to invest, use a complete US and a complete foreign fund:
   * 60% Total US index (VTI)
   * 40% Foreign including some emerging markets (VGTSX or FSIIX, but if you don't have enough money, buy EFA)

If you have less than $20K to invest, put the money in the following categories:
   * 55% US stocks (say VTI or VFINX)
   * 35% International developed countries (say EFA, DODFX)
   * 10% Emerging markets (EEM or VWO)

If you have more than $20K you can also add some real estate or US bonds/Treasury bills:
   * 40% US stocks (say VTI or VFINX)
   * 25% International developed countries (say EFA, DODFX)
   * 5% Emerging markets (EEM or VWO)
   * 15% REIT index (VNQ or VGSIX)

Keep in mind that if you are maintaining your own portfolio, one of the most important steps you can take is to make sure that you rebalance once or twice a year.  If one sector has had a lot of growth, you should sell some of your gains and buy some more of the underperforming sectors.  Over the long haul this will significantly increase your return.

Other Retirement Investment Vehicles
Chances are, you will probably need more than just Social Security and your IRAs to live off of by the time you retire.  There are lots of other ways to save for retirement as well.   If you own your own home, it may turn out that the equity you have in the house is your most valuable asset by the time you retire.  However, you may have to sell your home to access this equity in the most efficient manner.  As your assets grow and once you are comfortable investing using tax-deferred or tax-free brokerage accounts, you may want to set up a taxed account as well and invest in that too.  You may have a different investment strategy for these other accounts, in order to minimize tax losses, but you will need to keep in mind the big picture of your entire portfolio (including any real estate you may own) when you come up with your balancing scheme.

I know that I have just scraped the surface of this topic.  Please use the comments to flesh out my discussion.   This week I'm using the poll to answer the demographic question meerkoet asked a few weeks ago.  For comparison, of the 7000+ who responded to DrSteveB's poll last year, 32% of the folks on this site self-identified as female.

Update [2007-6-1 16:35:10 by sarahnity]: Disclaimer: I am not any kind of financial professional.  Take any of this advice at your own risk.  

Poll

What gender do you predominantly self-identify as?

44%30 votes
28%19 votes
11%8 votes
14%10 votes

| 67 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Frugal Friday, Personal finance, teaching, community, investment (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 34 comments

  •  Alms for the author (32+ / 0-)

    I'd like to add a topic on investing as a once-a-month or so diary here.  If anyone writing one, or you have a topic you'd like to see covered, or if you want to be added to the mailing list for announcing these diaries, email me: frugalfridays (at) gmail.com

    Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

    by sarahnity on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:54:32 PM PDT

  •  Very well done and recommended, (10+ / 0-)

    Sarahnity.  One final note - START NOW!

    When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

    by wozzle on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:57:23 PM PDT

  •  If someone has $6000 in assets (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sarahnity

    to invest  I don't think I would be recommending that they invest as you have advised. I guess if you are giving advice that they have additional assets enough for emergency of at least three to six months of living expenses, perhaps..but only perhaps.

    Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

    by ohcanada on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:01:47 PM PDT

  •  Roth IRA's (6+ / 0-)

    I can't say enough good things about Roth IRA's for young people. Even if you are in college and are working part-time, see if you can sock something away. Basically, young people have very, very low tax obligations (and honestly, if you don't have a low tax obligation, don't talk to me about it because I'm broke and pissed off right now). (Oh, and you can't get a Roth IRA if you make too much money anyways, so ha, people-who-can-afford-to-eat.) (Sorry. I'm grumpy, overeducated, and unemployed.)

    So, for instance, if you get nearly all of your Fed Income Tax back, and then you're also investing in a Roth IRA, you beat the tax-man twice because you don't pay taxes on what you withdraw down the line.

    Best of all, after a certain number of years (5 or so) you can pull out all of the principle and use it for either education expenses (self, spouse or child), or first-time home purchase, with no penalty.

    So go get that Roth IRA.

    "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

    by kath25 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:03:34 PM PDT

    •  kath25 (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, KiaRioGrl79, kath25, tucsonlynn

      Unsolicited idea from a recruiter:

      Put the type of position you are looking for in your sig.  With all of us here, you never know who might have a good opportunity for you.

      /sticking my nose where it doesn't belong

    •  what's this ROTH limit? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kath25

      I've never heard about "too much money being made" to have a Roth IRA.  When does that happen?

      "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

      by pacified on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 04:05:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  never mind (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sarahnity, kath25, tucsonlynn

        thanks wikipedia.

        Like many tools that offer tax advantages, Congress has limited who can contribute to a Roth IRA, based upon income. A taxpayer can only contribute the maximum amount listed at the top of the page if his or her Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) is below a certain level (the bottom of the range shown below). Otherwise, a phase-out of allowed contributions runs throughout the MAGI ranges shown below. Once MAGI hits the top of the range, no contribution is allowed at all. The ranges, for 2007, are:

           * Single filers: Up to $99,000 (to qualify for a full contribution); $99,000-$114,000 (to be eligible for a partial contribution)
           * Joint filers: Up to $156,000 (to qualify for a full contribution); $156,000-$166,000 (to be eligible for a partial contribution)

        I'm still eligible.  I don't now if that's a good thing or not, since I could use $114,000 a year.  Maybe by year 30!

        "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

        by pacified on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 04:10:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  So I like this stock... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sarahnity

    Before I go get the laundry out of the dryer, I'm going to tell you all about a stock I like. (Is this legal? It's not a tip. I'm just describing something I like.)

    It's called MPV (that's the symbol). It's a close-ended fund traded as a stock. The key is that it pays a VERY large dividend -- about $1.10 a year per share, and it costs about $16/share. What's great is that for Roth IRA's and IRA's that have a fixed contribution amount, if you put this in, it churns out an extra 5-7% a year in income that adds to that amount you contributed.

    It's a good thing.

    Ok, laundry calls.

    "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

    by kath25 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:06:34 PM PDT

  •  Great Advice (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sarahnity

    But you should include some of the "Lifetime" funds that many investment firms offer. Many people would disagree with you about your asset allocation and diversification choices and these "Lifetime" funds do the balancing for you so you don't have to do all that stuff that you talk about like rebalancing once or twice a year. Check out the Fidelity Freedom Funds for a great example of this type of fund.

    Also, I hope you aren't a licensed representative.

    I go forth to make new demands on life. Do something that is worthy of it and me. May I dare as I have never done! May I persevere as I have never done!-HDT

    by Democrat on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:14:44 PM PDT

    •  It's in there (0+ / 0-)

      Look down under "Building a Balanced Portfolio".  These are great instruments for folks like me who just don't want to spend much time and effort maintaining the right balance.

      Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

      by sarahnity on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:17:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Licensed? Thanks for the reminder (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tikkun

      I should include a disclaimer since I am not any kind of financial professional.

      Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

      by sarahnity on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:19:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you were licensed then your advice would (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sarahnity

        be considered illegal. So it is good that your are not a registered representative.

        Of course, since you are just writing with free advice you don't have anything to worry about. You did include  a basic disclaimer in the diary, but not a bad idea to take that extra step.

        I do want to say that if people listened to you they would end up with plenty of money at retirement. At least those that are under 30 now. That is the key. Start early and contribute often.

        I go forth to make new demands on life. Do something that is worthy of it and me. May I dare as I have never done! May I persevere as I have never done!-HDT

        by Democrat on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:30:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Turtle Method - for conservative savers (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tikkun, sarahnity, KiaRioGrl79

    Lots of people either don't have the money or the inclination to take a punt on the financial markets.  Rather than do it haphazardly, here is a little method I devised a long time ago to make sure I (and others) could sleep at night.  I call it "The Turtle Method" from the story of the Turtle and the Hare, as the slow but steady way to cross the finish line.  There are only 3 simple rules:

    1.  For every 1 month's income you have saved in an insured or guaranteed account (like a bank CD, US Savings bond, or GIC (guaranteed investment contract) via your 401k at work), you can invest 1% of your net worth in the stock or bond market.

    Let's say you (or your family) need $3000 a month to pay all your bills and daily expenses.  If you only have $15,000 available to save or invest, that's 5 months' income.  You should save ~$14,500 and can invest $500.  If you have $30,000, you should save ~$27,000 and invest $3000.  by the time you have $100,000, you should save ~$75,000 and can invest $25,000.

    1.  Subtract your age from 100.  This is the percentage of your investments to put in stocks.  The remaining percentage (equal to your age) can go in bonds.  You don't need to get fancy with these funds.  You can have one stock index fund and one bond index fund.
    1.  Ladder you savings.  Roll over a CD, or buy a savings bond every 3 months in equal amounts.  When buying a CD, call around to every local bank and check their rates.  You'd be surprised how much they vary.  Usually you can come close to one of the top rates advertised in the country.

    If you can't bring yourself to follow the usual Wall Street advice, then this method ought to afford years of easy sleep at night.

    "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

    by New Deal democrat on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:19:45 PM PDT

    •  Math is not one of my best subjects (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sarahnity

      but how do you get $15,000 * 1% = $500 for investment in stocks?

      •  Good catch! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sarahnity

        Got it myself about 5 seconds after I hit "post" (of course).  Should be ~$750.

        Cheers.

        BTW, disclaimer:  I'm not an investment professional either.  And of course over time, historically, stocks have proven a better investment yadda yadda.  Some people just can't do it congenitally.  And everybody should have a pool of savings.

        "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

        by New Deal democrat on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 02:27:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A tool that works best outside IRAs and Roths (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sarahnity

    Conroy's (Canadian oil trusts) announce their quarterly dividend but pay it divided by months and they pay extremely well.  The reason I like the conroy dividend distribution plan is that it allows me to reinvest a third each of my dividend two months and one month early.  Because of the agreements with the IRS, dividends from conroys are taxed at 15 % in Canada and that is the extent of your taxation.  Put the trust in your IRA and it jimmies your tax benefit.  My favorite conroy, which I've held in one amount and another for 2 years, is Harvest Energy (HTE) which makes me 350 a month on a 30,000 investment. This makes the payout as good or better than rent from a housing unit. Unfortunately I don't have a link for you because I found Harvest when searching the WSJ for high dividend shares but you can likely find information if you google the term conroys.

    One added benefit of the conroys is the increasing value of the Canadian dollar, affectionately referred to as the "Loony". against the American dollar.

  •  Self-Identify? ok... (5+ / 0-)

    It would be very odd for ANYONE not to identify me as male, particularly since I have not shaven since the last day of 1972.  That poll is a bit odd, doncha think?

    As someone that tried to retire early, and is thinking of going back to work, let me throw this on the table:  Health insurance is a BIG DEAL.  Hopefully, the Dems will make some attempt to make it more easily available, but right now it is just about a dealbreaker for me.  I was hoping to live cheap and opt out early, but I'm not sure I will be able.  I am uninsured, and finding it damn near impossible.  Thinking about researching some of the "discount card" plans (not insurance, but a buy-in to the negotiated prices like they have).

    Also, be mentally prepared for the transition.  Being a bit of a loner, not having many good personal relationships, and having things go different than expected (like I can't sell my damn house), I have been hit rather hard with a depression that can be debilitating beyond any expectation.  This was supposed to be the time I started finding happiness.

    Of course, I don't mean to imply that any of you are as dysfunctional as myself, just be aware of the dangers.

    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

    by beemerr90s on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:46:39 PM PDT

  •  One important thing to check (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SarahLee, sarahnity

    when choosing a fund to invest in is the expense ratio. Especially if you're going to be in it for a while, like say for a IRA. A percentage point (or two) can really eat up whatever gains you might have made all for the rather dubious benefits of more active involvement by the fund manager, or sometimes for no reason at all.

  •  My nightmare scenario.... (4+ / 0-)

    ...is being in my 50s and finding myself either burnt out or unemployed and facing age discrimination.  Ever since my layoff last year, I've felt the burning need to be in control of my destiny by trying to accumulate enough money that I could wind down my career at my own pace and not be burnt out and bitter in my 60s.

    My old job was "fun" -- I loved it and the folks I worked with but after my layoff I ended up in a "serious" job in an office of serous workaholics and a few burnouts who I have inevitably had to clean up after.  The good part of the job is that I'm making $10,000 more than I was (financial analyst with security clearance), the job is close to home (reverse commute!) and the bosses love my work so much they gave me a first ever staff award and will be giving me a promotion in the next month or so.

    So I'll stick it out for awhile longer and see if I can transition to an employer with better work/life balance and a less oppressive work environment.

    So I heartily agree with those who say start saving for retirement YESTERDAY and save all you possibly can because you don't know what tomorrow holds.

  •  Mighty fine diary! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tikkun, sarahnity
    I hope the diarist will continue this kind of thing.  I'd like to read a discussion about financial advisors, since I am seriously biased towards "fee-only" advisors:  you pay for their expertise (based on the $ they are handling for you; this cost is deductible on Schedule A Miscellaneous), they gain nothing from the investments you make, so they have no reason to push any particular investment on you (no hidden agendas).

    They ask about your goals, they make investments that respond to this, they balance your portfolio regularly. My insurance policies are also reviewed annually to make sure they still make sense.

    Mine even got me in touch with an inexpensive lawyer who got me a will, set up "transfer-on-death" deals to avoid probate, etc.

    You can do all this yourself if you have the enthusiasm.  But they have better analysis software than you do, a definite bonus.

  •  I'm sorry I missed this earlier (0+ / 0-)

    I would have recommended.  Please continue with more diaries. Thanks

    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

    by Pam from Calif on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 08:23:41 PM PDT

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