Daily Kos

That Gallup Poll, Evolution, and the History of Science and Religion: Complexity, not Conflict

Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 06:41:28 PM PDT

The gallup poll on creationism and evolution highlighted in thereisnospoon’s fine diary is not news.  Evolution has been a minority viewpoint in America for virtually my entire life, as the gallup poll itself indicates.

Having taught collegiate courses in the history of science both in Stereotypical Leftist College Town and Stereotypical Rural Bible-belt Town, I believe I can offer some useful insights into the current and historical relationship between scientific and religious belief.  My sense is that most Americans have bought in to a false dichotomy, one that sees science and religion as opposing and irreconcilable world-views. (Convieniently illustrated by this recent diary, for instance.)   This interpretation of the relationship between science and religion is grossly simplistic and historically inaccurate.  For those of us who view ourselves as "pro-science," it also frames the debate over cultural issues surrounding science and religion  in a manner that precludes any hope that we will win.  

Below are my observations regarding our mistaken notions of science and religion, and how we can adjust the terms of the debate in both a more favorable, more respectful, and more accurate manner.

1.Science and Religion don’t fight.  People do.

This is a corny way of pointing out that science and religion are both endeavors undertaken by human beings.  In very but not entirely different ways, they are human pursuits designed to enhance our understanding and appreciation of a world that we intuitively understand is much grander and complex than ourselves, and yet one that, we hope, ultimately has some sort of underlying order to it.  They are each quests conducted by imperfect and temporal beings for perfect and timeless truths, ones that may or may not be out there.

As such, science and religion can not fight (or co-exist) any more than Kantian philosophy and Computer Programming can.  They are all human enterprises.

2.Peoples’ understandings of science and religion are idiosyncratic and complex.

You’ve probably noticed that even among people who identify as biblical literalists, no two literalists have quite exactly the same purportedly literal reading of the bible. (or, for that matter, take legal scholars who consider themselves to be strict constructionists...)   Every act of reading is an act of translating symbols on a page to representations in the mind.  As such, no two people are going to read the Good Book, or the Constitution, in exactly the same way, no matter how closely aligned their philosophical perspectives regarding how the document ought to be read.

The same is true of the scientific community.  While they can be as reluctant to admit it as the biblical literalists, even the most rigorous of scientists will have differences in evaluating what data is noise and what is not, or whether anomalous test result is due to a glitch in the computer or evidence of a new and unexpected discovery.  Anti-evolution and anti-global warming groups gleefully (and incorrectly) point to arcane technical disputes between evolutionary biologists over the exact nature of speciation as "proof" that evolution is not settled science.  This is as absurd as claiming that slight variations in literalists’ interpretation of Genesis are proof that there is controversy within the literalist community regarding God’s existence.

Furthermore, the lessons that we draw from our readings of religion and of science are as diverse as we are.  A Social Gospeler reads the New Testament as a condemnation of poverty and injustice.  A student at Liberty  University reads it as...well.... a condemnation of other things.  With evolution, we are most familiar with those who read Darwin as giving license to "survival of the fittest" (a term that Darwin did not coin, fwiw).  However, there has also been a small but influential minority of Darwinists who concluded that evolution endorsed social cooperation, even anarcho-Communism – a common struggle for survival against a harsh environment.  (Think of social animals like ants, prairie dogs, ducks, bees, and so forth.)

More immediately, we have an example of this sort of idiosyncrasy from the gallup poll data.  It reports that a sizable minority of respondents claim to believe both in a divinely created young earth, AND evolution over the course of millions of years.  The author of the gallup article struggles to explain this, and calls it a "contradiction."

It might seem contradictory to believe that humans were created in their present form at one time within the past 10,000 years and at the same time believe that humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. But, based on an analysis of the two side-by-side questions asked this month about evolution and creationism, it appears that a substantial number of Americans hold these conflicting views.

To me, it’s not evidence that the respondents are ignoramuses incapable of recognizing conflicting ideas when presented with them.  It’s evidence that their synthesis of their understanding of Genesis and evolution is more complex than what Gallup questions are designed to observe.

Upshot: We all draw at least slightly different lessons from what we read.  Even when we’re reading the purportedly indisputable and timeless truths from both religion and science.

3.Historically, the examples of religious and scientific coexistence are much longer (and sadly, much more boring) than those of conflict

And this gets to the really important part of this already too-long rumination.  Historians of science and religion have, over the last thirty years, rejected the notion of a timeless warfare between reason and faith as simplistic, partisan, and historically inaccurate.  Instead, they have endorsed the notion of "Complexity:"  that interactions between scientific and religious beliefs are shaped by particular  people, places, and time-periods.  

And examining those particulars, we see that while there is plenty of fodder for those who want to see a timeless battle between reason and faith, such instances are the exception, not the rule.  Historically the vast preponderance of scientists have been, in some sense or another, people of faith, while people of faith have, by in large, accepted and integrated the findings of science.  No two people synthesize science and religion in quite the same way or with quite the same weighting towards one or the other, but we all do it.  

A few quick examples:

• Saint Thomas Aquinas argued that the "pagan" knowledge of the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle was reconcilable with the teachings of the Medieval Catholic church.  He argued that there could be no true conflict between religion and science, since both faith and reason were given by God.  Any seeming conflict must be due to the fact that we are humans, and therefore, flawed in our understanding of both religion and nature.  Something of a radical position when he first advanced it in the 1260s and 1270s, he was canonized in 1323.

• Copernicus worked as a church official, and dedicated On the Revolution of the Heavenly Spheres to the Pope

• Perhaps 90% of Newton’s writings were not concerned with laws of motion, calculus and gravity, but on arcane matters of early Christian history and alchemy.  For generations this had been an embarrassment to historians who wanted to lionize Newton.   Now, it’s considered essential to appreciate Newton’s powerful religious convictions if we wish to understand his conception of Universal Gravitation, among other things.  

• Ditto for the religious inspiration behind Kepler’s formulation of the laws of planetary motion

• Gregor Mendel was a monk.

Of course, Darwin’s greatest proponent, Thomas Huxley, was a great antagonist of organized religion, and many of us know that Darwin lost his faith while he worked on evolution.  Less commonly appreciated is the broader historical context surrounding these events, which make them appear far more complex than simple stories of antagonism between religion and science..  

Huxley was hell-bent on turning science into a respectable profession from which ambitious young men could make a living.  At the time, British science was conducted as a leisurely pursuit by gentlemen (like Darwin) who did not need to labor in order to eat, and by the clergy!  Huxley’s famous battles with the English clergy were as much a contest for the professional authority to do scientific work as they were about whether science or religion was the superior worldview.

Indeed, Darwin lost his faith while compiling the research that became Origin of Species, but he came from a family with a tradition for unorthodoxy if not outright non-belief, to begin with, and most historians look at the death of his favorite daughter following a prolonged illness as the cause of his loss of faith:  Darwin could not believe in a God that let young girls die terrible deaths.

Or the same with the notorious story of Galileo’s condemnation.  We know the broad outlines of the Catholic Church ordering Galileo to recant his support of heliocentrism.  We don’t appreciate the historical context – the middle of the Counter-Reformation, Galileo’s gross political miscalculations and coarse temperament, as well as the complex personal relationship between him, the Pope and several cardinals, which facilitated his fall from favor.

Upshot: Anyone who tries to tell you that "history proves" science and religion must conflict, even over topics like evolution, is doing violence to history.

4. If we tell people they must choose either science or religion, the majority will choose religion

For a variety of reasons that I have neither the energy nor the knowledge to get in to, partisans have been asking Americans since the late 1800s to choose a side:  either you’re for science or for religion, but not both.  While it was pro-science partisans who began this fight, I think that a quick survey of the political landscape establishes that this isn’t a fight that pro-science partisans are winning.   If we’re going to consider ourselves members of the "reality based community," we need to acknowledge that belief in evolution has been a minority position in America for at least 25 years.  If we frame the cultural issues surrounding religion and faith, issues like evolution, as either/or scenarios, most people will abandon their scientific commitments before their religious ones.  This shouldn’t be particularly surprising.  For most people, science isn’t immediate, it isn’t something that they can participate in, it’s not something where they have a say in what the results are.  The notion that highly trained white men in labcoats far away from us get to tell us what the laws of nature are, isn’t very appetizing in a nation with a long historical tendency towards anti-intellectualism and a populist pragmatism.  It has not, and will not any time soon win out against the much more immediate and egalitarian spirit of the local congregation.

5.If we tell people they can reconcile science and religion as they see fit, they just might.

Having spent a good part of my adult life talking to the religiously devout about matters of science and religion, I’ve found that very few people want to think of themselves as anti-science.  But they want even less to think of themselves as anti-religion, and are convinced – whether it be due to their pastor, the talking heads, or who knows what – that they have to pick.  When I tell them that they don’t have to pick one or the other, that historically, the vast number of people decide to pick both, and figure out exactly how they want to make it all fit together, on their own, I can see the sense of relief in these students’ eyes.

I’ve found that my most effective approach is to give a quick and dirty explanation to students of the long history of religious scholarship that emphasizes the "two books" of revelation – the Good Book of the Bible, and the "Book of Nature."  In this view, God authored both the Bible and the laws of Nature, each is a valid source of revelation, and each is a historical process of revelation progressively brought to light with time.  I remind my students of St. Thomas Aquinas, and his argument that correct science and correct theology can not conflict, as they are both divine, and that the flaw must be in our fallible understanding.

I am unapologetic in my support of evolution: it is a cornerstone of 150 years of scientific advancement, as indisputable as gravity.  I am unapologetic in my refusal to treat Creationism as in any way scientific.  But happily, I have found that the most intellectually honest way of speaking about the controversies surrounding science and religion is also the most respectful, and the most culturally effective.  Most of the devout are not so doctrinaire that they wish to deny the authority of the Book of Nature.  They just need to be convinced that evolution is a crucial chapter in that book, and that there is space enough in their personal library to add the Book of Nature without throwing out the Good Book.  

Poll

My synthesis of science and religion is:

48%24 votes
32%16 votes
14%7 votes
4%2 votes
2%1 votes

| 50 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Evolution, Creationism, Science, Religion, History (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 27 comments

  •  Hooray for complexity and coexistence (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Janet Strange, godislove

    and other boring things.

    -9.13, -8.56

    Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

    Hail Eris.

    by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 06:43:19 PM PDT

  •  God made the world, (4+ / 0-)

    it's up to us to figure out how. -Galileo

    (I learned that right here on DKos. Thanks jimraff.)

    Love, baby, that's where it's at. --The B52's

    by Mind That on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 06:52:08 PM PDT

  •  I discussed the same diary.... (0+ / 0-)

    I have a poll running on this same diary...that has a familiar title:
    Gallup: 40% of Democrats do not believe in Evolution

    No infringement on copyright intended, rather another perspective of the data.  

    Read it and give your opinion.

    Now, this pimp completed, I will go back to your diary and spend the time it deserves and be back with a comment.  

    Or maybe when I return from my brights meeting.

    •  As you will see... (0+ / 0-)

      I was aware of your diary - as you see I reference it in my introduction.  We obviously are on the same side, but I think we have quite different perspectives on the matter.  I did not want to disrespect your diary by writing a huge counter-thesis to it, inside of it, and considered my perspective to be distinct enough to warrant a separate diary.  But thanks for showing up, cheers!

      -9.13, -8.56

      Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

      Hail Eris.

      by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:04:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm skeptical of the... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, walkshills, Limelite

    "can't we all just get along" strategy.  There are religious people (of Christians and Jews) who believe that the Bible has metaphorical bits and there are religious people who believe that those parts of the Bible are fact-claiming and non-metaphorical but false.  Those people could certainly see no clash between their religious beliefs and science.

    But for people who see the Genesis creation narrative as literal, fact-claiming, and non-metaphorical, it is hard to see where there is room for compromise with science.  There is a clash here, there are two incompatible theories, Evolution through Natural Selection and Creationism (including ID).  We're not doing them any favors by pretending there is no clash.

    I also don't want scientists to weasel out by adopting rhetoric like "Science is for science class, religion for religion".  That suggests that creationism could be unscientific, true in some other way than in the scientific way (whatever that means).  This is a cop-out.  There's only one real history of the world and how humans developed through evolution.  So, let's stop trying to pretend that everybody is hunky-dorry, and admit that there is a real disagreement here and that people will need to accept that the Genesis creation story isn't true if they are to believe true claims about the world.

    •  Except That Creationism Is Not a Theory (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      murrayewv, FishOutofWater

      It's a collection of ideas.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:08:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Theory in the logician's sense... (0+ / 0-)

        A collection of sentences.  I certainly wouldn't say that Creationism is a scientific theory.

      •  But it is (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Janet Strange, walkshills

        Along with Ptolemy's epicylcic theory of plantary motion, the phlogiston theory, spontaneous generation, Thomson's "raison pudding" theory of the atom, etc. etc.

        All of these (including creationism) make explicit scientific claims about the world, and those claims have been amply demonstrated to be false (or to be charatible to Ptolemy, needlessly complex and unfruitful).  A theory doesn't have to make correct predictions to be scientific, it just has to make empirical claims about the world.  By analogy, "2 + 2 = 5" is an arithmetic statement--it just happens to be a false statement.

        There are many (at least 46 or so) different lines of reasoning for which creationism and evolution have been shown to make divergent predictions.  The modern theory of evolution makes a correct prediction in all of those cases while creationism consistently makes incorrect predictions.  Thus we accept the theory of evolution as good science and reject creationism as bad science, but science nonetheless.

        I say we should teach creationism in science classes, along with phlogiston theory, etc. as paradigms for falsified scientific theories.

    •  Certainly, not all of us can get along... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Janet Strange

      there's an unreconcilable segment of the religious right that I do not want to negoitate with.  I just happen to think that when we polarize the science and religion issue, our side loses, so we need to find a more effective way of marginalizing the irreconcilables on the religious extreme.  

      -9.13, -8.56

      Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

      Hail Eris.

      by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:11:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People have been too afraid to say... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        walkshills

        anything that might displease the religious right.  That's why we get baloney rhetoric like "Science is for science class, religion for religion class".

        That's one place where I give credit to biologists and philosophers like Dawkins, Gould and Dennett for not adopting the mealy-mouthed relativism and standing up for the truth.  Confrontation isn't a bad thing.  Let's have more of it, not less.

    •  Not sure. (0+ / 0-)

      But for people who see the Genesis creation narrative as literal, fact-claiming, and non-metaphorical, it is hard to see where there is room for compromise with science.  There is a clash here, there are two incompatible theories, Evolution through Natural Selection and Creationism (including ID).  We're not doing them any favors by pretending there is no clash.

      Although there is certainly a logical contradiction between creationism which asserts a 6,000-10,000 year old Earth and what we know from astrophysics, geology, and biology, not all creationists believe that a literal interpretation of the Bible results in such a conclusion.  They certainly are the most vocal, however.

  •  Interesting History. Thanks! (0+ / 0-)

    For me however it all comes down what what faith is exercised towards.

    Obviously only one or arguably two beings are worshipped as God in the dominant American religions. But types and amounts of faith are also exercised toward religious organizations, leaders and other people, and sometime toward artifacts, all of which otherwise are entirely amenable to rational thought and testing.

    Where I come down is that the application of almost any amount or kind of faith toward anything in the testable world is dangerous. As a liberal Protestant we always took a much more Jewish-like view of our clergy for example: we respect their intentions and their study and opinions based on all that, but otherwise we have no faith that they're informed in any way the rest of us couldn't be given their experience and training. My church is run as a sort of republic, and we have so little ritual and artifacts connected with historic church magic that millions of us believe in none at all.

    Both authoritarian and fundamentalist sects elevate their institutions and leadership, demanding a certain amount of faith that they're connected with supernatural powers or authority of God in ways others are not. Many teach that this God intervenes regularly, realtime in the testable world, and either imply or overtly state that this can be readily known. And that God provides priviledged real-world information in ways that can be readily known.

    Wherever these apply --and they apply broadly-- they're against science at and they're a danger to the world in at least some particulars.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:07:30 PM PDT

  •  Complexity is good. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    quokkapox, Mind That

    This is a very well written diary.  Although I am an atheist, I also favor practicality.  I would like to see the world move away from supernatural explanations for natural phenomena, but I know that, at the present time, forcing people to choose one or the other would result in my side losing badly.

    •  Socially acceptable (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Firefly

      The real problem is that it's socially acceptable in this country to reject evolution.  You can easily get away with saying that you disbelieve all the evidence to the contrary, and you're going instead with the mythology contained in your preferred little black holy book.

      If you've chosen to believe something because "I know it's just true", or because someone else told you it's true, or because you might suffer eternal torture if you don't believe it's all true, that is a powerful motivating force for the uncurious and gullible.

      They're denying the credibility of hundreds of thousands of competent, dedicated individuals, many of whom have spent their entire lives making observations, doing experiments, and drawing logical conclusions, for the past several hundred years.  All so that they can continue to believe the fairy tales found in a "holy book" that they were taught as a child.

      And this is still socially acceptable?  Get a grip, America.

      Half of America is choosing to believe what they find in an old, yet popular book, along with what their parents or religious leaders may have erroneously taught them.

      I'm choosing to logically interpret the mountains of evidence, written in the very rocks under all our feet all over the world, and the DNA in every living cell all over the world.  Oh, and every single photon we can collect that comes in from the distant "heavens".  There is a consistent interpretation of all these observations, as codified by modern science.  Sure there are fringes like string theory that are pure mathematical conjecture.  But the bulk of it is truly settled beyond any reasonable doubt.

      So I guess half of America is ignorant (at least about science) and that's okay with the rest of us.  That is very sad.

      Sigh.  I'm off to check my horoscope.

  •  Gravitation is not settled science (0+ / 0-)

    The "gravity wave" and/or "gravity particle" is being sought by experiments. Research on evolution continues too because much is unsettled in our understanding of the process of evolution.

    However, the "theory" of evolution has been thoroughly investigated. It has been modified at the margins and developed in complexity but it has stood the test of time.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:12:36 PM PDT

  •  Comments on several points: (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    walkshills, FishOutofWater

    Suggest a serious read of  Al Gore's "Assault against reason"  It addresses many of these issues that you bring up.
     
    I'm working on an essay on his approach, that I seriously criticize, that will end up as heavy, and unread as this, so I don't know whether to even bother.

    Your kantian/programing analogy has limits.  Religion, and how it is addressed is a popular conception that motivates and defines individuals and groups, unlike your two examples.

    This statement you make may be true historically but is no longer.

    Historically the vast preponderance of scientists have been, in some sense or another, people of faith,

     
    See the first comment on my diary listed above for reference.  
    Much of the meme of atheists as anti-religious is an artifact not of the atheists but of aggressive religion. If interested I will give you more references to this.

    A recent one hour talk between the Bishop of Oxford and Richard Dawkings (considered such an aggressive atheist) was a delightful sharing of thoughts by like minded men with a slight disagreement.

    This represented the possibility of accommodation between religion and realism that you espouse.

    •  I'm aware of that survey (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      walkshills

      the important part of the question is that it asks for belief in a "personal" god.  And not surprisingly, most scientists today do not believe in a god that personallly intervenes in their affairs.

      It does not mean that they lack religious belief.  That survey tends to get misconstrued.  No doubt the elite scientists are less religious and less doctrinaire than the common man.  Granted.  But again, their religious beliefs are more complex than answering "no" to a question about a personal god.

      -9.13, -8.56

      Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

      Hail Eris.

      by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:17:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, a yes or no answer to belief.. (0+ / 0-)

        In God is absurd.

        I'll share this response by a Nobel winner in the form of a poem here.

        I put it at the head of my personal blog, since this cousin got all the brains in the family, and I can't even set up a personal web site.

        After you read the poem, read the rest of the story.  You (and other visitors) might find it worthwhile.

        •  I'll read.. (0+ / 0-)

          the poem when you re-read my point.

          There are many different forms of belief in god.  The poll asks for belief in a personal god.  As in an active, intervening god.  That is not the same as the "clockmaker" god of the mechanistic universe, the one favored by Newton, Descartes, and countless others.  I never said the question was absurd, I did say it was simplistic.  There is a diversirty of understandings of "god" and we shouldn't be surprised that most scientists don't think of God as that guy with a beard who goes around rescuing people.  That is not the same as stating a lack of belief in God.

          -9.13, -8.56

          Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

          Hail Eris.

          by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:52:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed, no one should be subjected to someone... (0+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Janet Strange

            else's multiple choices.  We all have a right to articulate our thoughts and beliefs.

            As I took my dinner break I thought about your distinction of "personal" God.  As a Jew my background is limited to the old testament, which I learned from a Rabbi who would have been at home in a "Chader" in the first millenium Europe.

            And the Jewish Jehova is certainly personal, as is this God when taken to the other two Abrahamic religions, Islam and Christianity.  So rejection of such a God, while leaving open a type of wonder, of humility, does preclude what we understand to be the general meaning of the word among the monotheistic religions.

            If you are interested in the video of Dawkings and the Bishop of Oxford, I will try to track it down for you. The Bishop was the perfect exemplar of enlightened liberal Christianity.  And they both agreed that Dawkings was the most "religious" atheist known.

            This was because he retained a sense of wonder, or the majesty of existence.  

            If Dawkings is a religious person, then who among us are not if we let ourselves explore the limits of hour tiny primate brain.

            Now read the poem!

            •  Very nice (0+ / 0-)

              thanks for the read.  I'll pass on Dawkins - I'm quite familiar with him for his scientific work, and while I am very sympathetic to his religious stance, I obviously am not a fan of his methods or rhettoric....

              -9.13, -8.56

              Support Irony. Torture Rumsfeld.

              Hail Eris.

              by Transmission on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 08:55:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Some Ideas Are Better Than Others (4+ / 0-)

    Science gives us better ideas than religion.  Period.  Religion can tell us nothing about the way things are and how the world works.  It only offers myths.

    Religion may give us moral views, but they're not necessarily better than the moral views held by many philosophers who are atheists, or even individuals with no pretensions to "higher thinking" but who have figured out for themselves that if they wouldn't like to be treated in a certain way, chances are the other person wouldn't either.

    I like complexity, but there is no value in making room at the Table of Reason for those who can't distinguish between thinking and believing just because some feel that doing so maintains a Big Tent of Tolerance.

    Unfortunately, we still live in a time when we must choose between better ideas and deceiving mythologies.  It is counterproductive to the relief of human suffering to play host to dangerous misbelief promulgated by religion.

    Mother Theresa may have been a woman capable of extraordinary self-denial, but her ideas about relieving suffering didn't include birth control.  More often than not belief and dogma promote human suffering rather than relieving it.  Examples in history as well as the present abound to support that claim.  Quite a few have been cited in this and the referred to diaries.

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 07:27:42 PM PDT

  •  They are different systems. (0+ / 0-)

    or "magisteries" as Gould described around 1998 in his regular Natural History essay.

    I agree certain things need to be confronted.

    Particularly this:

       "...we need to acknowledge that belief in evolution has been a minority position in America for at least 25 years."

       emphasis added

    The question of belief in evolution is a religious (fundy) hook.

    Religions are all belief systems: they need believers to sustain themselves or they go extinct. So are political systems.

    Science is not a belief system; it is a descriptive and problem-solving system with its own language and corresponding productive function, technology. (Of course, they never attack technology; they want the goodies.)

    Science is creating an ever-expanding description of our universe and of us, and in 350 years it has impinged upon the biblical descriptions of humans and the world.

    Whether or not you believe in evolution or science is immaterial; your lack of acceptance merely means you probably will never add to the body of science or stand on anyone's shoulders.

    As a result of this continued expansion, the biblical descriptions are becoming increasingly archaic. And when key elements are challenged, there is a reaction to perceived threats.

    The descriptions in modern geology, anthropology and archeology, biology and genomes and evolution can all clash with the creation myths, especially the Garden of Eden but many more; many religions have creation myths. It's not just the fundies. Normally, belief systems adapt the new information, transform themselves in some manner to stay relevant. The fundies want to stay relevant by making everything relevant in their terms.

    To ask the question, Do you believe...? throws the matter into their court, compromising the accuracy of science for the moral answers of religion (right or wrong, good or bad) and providing a battlefield where there was none before, one they can play on. That is calculated tactic IMHO.

    I notice both diaries included this acceptance; the poll poses the question in terms of belief and is biased due to that. This diary's entry presumes the question as valid. It is not. It is a trap.

    "But their gift is an empty snake, Carrying hypocrisy in its mouth like venom" - Sami Al Hajj

    by walkshills on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 01:13:20 AM PDT

  •  religion is useful for personal serenity (0+ / 0-)

    but not for understanding how the world works.  I voted "mostly science but some religion' but only because I find prayer and meditation (and yoga) useful for my day to day life.

    When it comes to belief, I believe in nothing that I don't have hard evidence for; I am an agnostic who leans heavily toward atheism (say, 6 on Richard Dawkins 1 to 7 scale; Dawkins calls himself a 6.8).

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:23:10 AM PDT

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