Solar Energy - Maybe there is a God?

Full disclosure.  Thirty years ago my mom was the secretary for a company called Northeast Carry in Hallowell, Maine.  This company sold wood stoves and bean sprouting devices and other shit that back to the earth types liked. Like Solar Collectors. (the amazing part is my parents didn't smoke weed or sell it, which is how i understand these types of places did business).  So, since no one really bought the stuff and they couldn't afford to pay my mom they just made her a partner in the company.  Like a Republican corporate takeover without the money!!  And after a few more years of us being broke (my dad was an organic carrot farmer...we were ahead of the curve on that as well...sold our farm to people who stopped growing carrots and starting growing weed..they went to jail) they sold the business.   It went belly up a few years later.  So, if you want to accuse me of being a shill for the solar power industry, fire away, but that is the extent of it.  (although I did make a solar collector to heat hot water for a science fair when i was in 6th grade).   To the diary.

I just installed one of these on my house.  It is a solar powered attic fan and it is one of the coolest things i've ever seen.  If the sun shines it sucks.  Sucks hot air out of my attic that is.  And thus keeps my house cooler.  It is like magic.  As I mentioned i'm very familiar with the idea of the sun heating up water.  But creating electricity?!   Why didn't we think of this sooner?    Yucca Mountain could be turned into a theme park.   Deserts in the middle east could be deserted and peaceful.   If you aren't understanding my excitement let me rephrase it.  The sun shines and i get electricity.  I'm beginning to rethink my atheism.   Perhaps this is God's way of saying "you stupid fucks!! Its the sun!! Its hot!!  Its always on!!  Jesus, you are fucking idiots!!".  

While I'm sure this will only result in humans creating solar powered weapons, for a few short years we should enjoy it.  Now i'm going up on my roof to pray.

•  I suspect

  God has uttered those words quite a lot throughout the history of humankind.

  by pattyp on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:56:42 AM PDT

•  That God thing can be tricky, though.

  After all, who owns the sun? Probably just trying to create a market ;)

  I saw my first off-the-grid solar house in 1970 and probably would have liked your folks. Really cool diary, onemadson.

  by cotterperson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:00:23 PM PDT

  •  my parents

    are alright.  I lucked out there.  Funny how stuff comes full circle.  I'm becoming a solar junkie due to this one little fan.  

    by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:03:23 PM PDT

•  Have you considered

  weed?

  It's not just for breakfast anymore.

  by Snarcalita on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:00:55 PM PDT

  •  as a power source

    or as a way for me to stop worrying and learn to love bombing iran

    by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:07:00 PM PDT

    •  From what I've read

      Hemp can do anything...

      by Snarcalita on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:19:04 PM PDT

      •  sign me up

        I'm not a hemp user (have little use for ropes) but I have been trying to sell my mom on its ability to stave off alzheimers when inhaled (see harvard studies).   I got the only hippie parents who think smoking weed is somehow a bad thing.  

        by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:21:44 PM PDT

•  Your epiphany is scalable.

  One of the most common arguments against photovoltaics is "It's intermittant; it only works when the sun's out!"

  Forhead slapper:  Because of air conditioning, that's exactly when the grid is under the most strain.

  If every rooftop had six panels and an grid-tied inverter, there might be another mountain with a top on it in Appalachia.

  by Crashing Vor on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:02:40 PM PDT

  •  talk to me in a few years

    i live in the middle of the city but i have the tallest building on my block.  and there is a new company that has solar powered AC.  They just hit the market but i have plans to head that way in a few years.

    by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:06:19 PM PDT

  •  "Load Coincident" is the term you're looking for

    It is, but it's still very stochastic.  Spreading it across a large area (the RTO/ISOs, see California ISO, PJM Interconnection, Southwest Power Pool, and Midwest ISO for examples) does help alleviate this, but it's still a problem.

    by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:15:22 PM PDT

•  This part is a joke, right?

  As I mentioned i'm very familiar with the idea of the sun heating up water.  But creating electricity?!   Why didn't we think of this sooner?

  The photoelectric effect was discovered in 1839 by Alexandre-Edmond Becquerel, and the first (albeit crude) solar cell was built in 1883 by Charles Fritts.  The silicon solar cell was patented in 1946 by Russell Ohl of Bell Labs.

  by ortcutt on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:03:03 PM PDT

  •  yeah

    sort of pointing out the idiotic nature of us fighting wars for oil in a obtuse way.  

    but when i first carried out my new fan into the backyard before it was installed and it fired up as soon as the light hit it I did kind of think, "wow, this shit works".

    by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:05:09 PM PDT

•  Take that to the next level

  and read up on OTECs.

  Essentially they turn the ocean in to a giant solar collector. IMHO one of the best and least mentioned possible replacements for fossil fuels. They can be used to generate pure hydrogen as an energy "export".

  by ReadyForChange on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:05:33 PM PDT

•  Solar has difficulties on a large scale

  Unfortunately, the "sun shines and it sucks" characteristic is exactly why solar is too unreliable under current technologies for large-scale deployment.  When you're running an electric grid, one of the key features is reliability: making sure it runs constantly and smoothly.  Too much electricity all at once and things start burning.  Literally.  Too little and there isn't enough "pressure" and blackouts start.

  Solar is good in that it tends to be "load-coincident": it gives the most when people use electricity the most.  

  by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:13:00 PM PDT

  •  I'm betting

    you could build a system that could handle the load.  Last i checked nuclear power involved harnessing nuclear exposions.  

    And i'm no expert but in my research for this fan and other options it seems like there are some large scale solar powered electricity projects about to come online out west.

    I've also been told battery technology is really kicking ass these days.

    the sun shines a lot.

    by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:16:48 PM PDT

    •  "Large Scale" Solar? Not compared to Conventional

      Not exactly.  Solar One, the 3rd largest in the world, just came online at 64 MW.  The average size of most conventionals is more than 500 MW.

      Also, we don't harness nuclear "explosions" -- that would be suicide.  It's a controlled reaction, think of the coals slowly burning in a fire.

      by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:21:12 PM PDT

      •  but

        are you trying to tell me that the problem with solar power is we can't handle the heat?

        I know someone who fled Chernobyl and lives in my neighborhood.   Talk to them about coals slowly burning in a fire.

        by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:25:01 PM PDT

        •  We can't handle the randomness, YET

          And that Chernobyl crack was an appeal to emotion that has very little to do with what happened at Chernobyl or what I'm talking about.

          I'm trying to give you the benefit of expertise, this is what I do for a living.  

          by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:30:39 PM PDT

          •  So

            we can't handle the randomness.  I understand that is an issue.  I live in upstate NY.  In some areas the sun doesn't shine for months in the winter.  Obviously we aren't going to survive on solar energy.  

            But that also doesn't excuse all the electricity we are letting shine down on us in my book.   yes there are problems with solar.  last i checked there were problems with fossil fuels.  and nuclear.  And wind.  But wind and solar seem to have some upsides the others don't.  

            Would you agree that if we could work out some of the technical difficulties that longterm solar looks pretty good?

            by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:39:44 PM PDT

            •  not true

              not true.  i read a study that said the LIGHT that falls on your average home in seattle, wa (one of the cloudiest cities in the states) would be able to power sed home three times over for that day.

              by dulcetpine on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:50:23 PM PDT

              •  I'd like to see such a study. EOM

                by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:23:50 PM PDT

    •  Building the system for Intermittency.

      that's what we're working on (btw, when talking about electricity "load" means demand for electricity, just an fyi) these days.  We need more transmission lines to allow regions to transfer back and forth as needed.  We need mainland wind online because it tends to work at the opposite times as solar (and offshore wind).  We need transmission lines to connect those far-flung resources which tend to be in remote locations (the best Solar in the US is the Mojave, the best Wind is in the back country of the Dakotas).  And we need a "smart grid" (think attaching a Tivo to your electric meter) to bring cutting edge technology to the management of the grid.

      And all those "we needs" are gonna cost BANK, which neither consumers nor businesses nor government wants to finance.

      by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:27:47 PM PDT

      •  questions

        BANK

        We've dropped a few hundred billion (i'm being modest) on the Iraq war.  could we do this for a few hundred billion?

        by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:35:32 PM PDT

        •  Now we're talking!

          You've identified why I'm a bitter old man.  If we'd have spent that money on the US transportation and energy infrastructures, we'd be well into the next centuries technologies, be defeating climate change, have nice roads and probably have enough money left over to fix the roofs on our schools and give teachers a decent paycheck.

          We will never know just what the short-sited warmonger in the White House has cost us.  But we can be sure it was a much brighter future.

          by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:42:03 PM PDT

          •  you should

            try to curb the bitterness if you are fond of solar as an option.  Your initial comments made you seem like someone who was anti-solar.   I realize we are a long way from where we need to be but if you are a fan of this stuff you should try to be a bit more positive up front.  

            We won't know what W has cost us because he's not anywhere near done.  going to get ugly in the next year and a half.    I'm not holding out for bright futures.  But I love my solar roof fan!!  It's steady purr reminds me of what could've been.  

            by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:46:03 PM PDT

            •  I just have this conversation too often

              by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:26:19 PM PDT

      •  Wrong approach I think

        In terms of trying to transport energy long distances.

        One of the lessons of climate change is that going forward we have to come up with more localized solutions whenever possible.

        Why not a solar array and wind turbine for every household? Give tax break incentives to citizens that upgrade their house, that combined with energy savings over time would greatly offset the cost to the consumer.

        The boon to the economy for the companies that make this new equipment would be huge. Then you don't have to waste energy to friction from transporting electricity across hundreds or thousands of miles of wires.

        In the mean time, while this would not provide 24/7 power to each house it would still offload a VERY considerable chunk from the grid and thus reduce GHG's from coal fired plants.

        And those plug in hybrids would suddenly be much more "green" by not drawing their power from coal plants.

        Eventually a larger scale system like you describe could be phased in to make it more palatable.

        by ReadyForChange on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:53:29 PM PDT

        •  the sun shines everywhere

          it does seem to be a bit of old school thinking to talk about transporting energy long distances.  

          now i'm going up on my roof to take a nap in my hammock while being serenaded by the sweet hum of my new fan (i've got a flat roof which is hammock friendly, don't try this at home on your peaked roof).

          by onemadson on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:01:46 PM PDT

        •  50% increase in Electricity Demand in 10 Years

          "Why not a solar array and wind turbine for every household?"

          It's not a bad thing to do, at all, in fact it would be great.  But, it's expensive. The electricity will still spill onto the grid resulting in reliability problems.  And then there's the amount of electricity demand that's on the horizon.

          Trust me, we're gonna need those transmission lines, and fast.  The guys in charge of reliability in the US, the North American Electric Reliability Council, are wetting themselves these days.

          by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:28:35 PM PDT

    •  I read about a way to capture all

      of the suns rays. It works and will be the wave of the future. Works even on sunless days. I can't remember where I heard about it but it was last week. They talked about different filters for different sun rays?

      by Owllwoman on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:27:47 PM PDT

  •  Solar is not the "silver bullet" but

    it is a GREAT supplemental energy source.

    As one example of a possible solution involving solar on a mass scale:

    1. have all houses install solar panels to help offload the grid - at least on days where the "sun shines"

    2. implement more wind energy to help out both while the sun shines and while it doesn't!

    3. use nuclear power for all other times - OR if we must use coal fired power plants for the time being at least a SIGNIFICANT amount of that energy is offset by the solar and wind.

    Solar and wind may not be the full solution but I would bet (totally just guessing) that eventually if all houses had solar arrays and wind turbines that energy demand from coal plants would drop off by a quarter or more.

    That BY ITSELF is a great reason to adopt these solutions. Besides - think of the MONEY that can be made by making, installing and maintaining this new equipment. Talk about a BOON for the economy!

    by ReadyForChange on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:22:55 PM PDT

    •  You and I are on the same page EOM

      by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:28:22 PM PDT

•  A map of Solar Resources in the US

  http://www.nrel.gov/...

  Useful link, I gotta go back to writing a paper on siting transmission lines for renewables now.  Cheers!

  by Maimonides on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:39:54 PM PDT