Daily Kos

a realistic look at impeachment.

Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:49:53 AM PDT

this site has become somewhat obsessed with impeachment these days, so, let's look at the issue. REALLY look at the issue! okay?

let's start at the beginning: here's the definitive primer on impeachment - have at it!

QUESTION: who, legally, can be impeached?

ANSWER:

The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

   --U.S. Constitution, Article 2, Section 4

This includes the president, the vice president AND members of the  
judiciary (including supreme court justices)

let's not stop here... for an accurate definition of the process please join me beneath the fold!

according to cornell school of law,

Technically, impeachment is the Senate's quasi-criminal proceeding instituted to remove a public officer, not the actual act of removal. Most references to impeachment, however, encompass the entire process, beginning with the House's impeachment inquiry. The term will be used in that broader sense here. By design, impeachment is a complex series of steps and procedures undertaken by the legislature. The process roughly resembles a grand jury inquest, conducted by the House, followed by a full-blown trial, conducted by the Senate with the Chief Justice presiding. Impeachment is not directed exclusively at Presidents. The Constitutional language, "all civil officers," includes such positions as Federal judgeships. The legislature, however, provides a slightly more streamlined process for lower offices by delegating much of it to committees. See  Nixon v. US, 506 U.S. 224 (1993)(involving removal of a Federal judge). Presidential impeachments involve the full, public participation of both branches of Congress.

so, for those who want immediate satisfaction or those who expect immediate removal of a person being impeached, that does not occur.  impeachment is a process.  furthermore, there are seven distinct steps involved.

these are as follows:

  1. the house judiciary committee decided whether or not to hold an inquiry on impeachment.
  1. the judiciary adopts a resolution to launch that inquiry and puts it before the house, where it must pass with a majority vote by the house.
  1. the judiciary committee then commences with the inquiry.  that inquiry MAY be in the form of public hearings or not.  the judiciary committee draws up articles of impeachment and must pass them by a majority of the committee. the articles of impeachment are then submitted to house for approval.
  1.  each article of impeachment is debated and voted upon by the house. once an article is approved by a majority in the house, the person is officially impeached and the process moves to the senate for trial.
  1.  the senate becomes the jury for the trial which is presided over by the chief of the supreme court. each article is considered separately, but it only takes one article to impeach.
  1.  the senate then votes to remove the official from office which, to succeed, must be a 2/3s vote for impeachment.
  1. in the case of president, the president would be removed from office automatically causing the vice president to assume the role of president.

so, as you all can see, to successfully remove bush and cheney from office, cheney must be impeached first with all of the above steps followed.  after impeaching cheney, the president would automatically name a replacement, who would then be selected by the current president and confirmed under the provisions of the twenty-fifth amendment to the constitution.

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

so, even IF the congress successfully impeached cheney, then george w. bush gets to pick a new vice president. nancy pelosi does not automatically become president.

the impeachment of all civil officers does NOT include members of congress, however. they are removed through the election process or through expulsion by the individual chamber.  

The direction to discipline or ``punish'' its own Members, and the authority to expel, relate directly to and inform the right ``recognized by common parliamentary law'' of self-preservation of the institutional integrity of the legislature and its proceedings.6 Even if not granted expressly within a constitution or similar document, authorities have contended that the right to expel and to discipline members of a legislative body is an inherent right of that institution. This disciplinary authority has been described as one ``naturally and even necessarily incidental to . . . legislative bodies; which, without such power, could not exist honorably, and fulfill the object of their creation.''7

why is this process so cumbersome and time-consuming?  the nature of adversarial politics with impediments for removal of said adversaries forces the two opposing parties to work toward a consensus.  IF the process were simple, easy and fast, government would grind to a complete halt while every action would become a "high crime and misdemeanor".  during the andrew johnson impeachment, article X of his impeachment was for speaking in a "loud voice".

ARTICLE X.

   That said Andrew Johnson, President of the United States, unmindful of the high duties of his office and the dignity and proprieties thereof, and of the harmony and courtesies which ought to exist and be maintained between the executive and legislative branches of the Government of the United States, designing and intending to set aside the rightful authorities and powers of Congress, did attempt to bring into disgrace, ridicule, hatred, contempt and reproach the Congress of the United States, and the several branches thereof, to impair and destroy the regard and respect of all the good people of the United States for the Congress and legislative power thereof, (which all officers of the government ought inviolably to preserve and maintain,) and to excite the odium and resentment of all good people of the United States against Congress and the laws by it duly and constitutionally enacted; and in pursuance of his said design and intent, openly and publicly and before divers assemblages of citizens of the United States, convened in divers parts thereof, to meet and receive said Andrew Johnson as the Chief Magistrate of the United States, did, on the 18th day of August, in the year of our Lord 1866, and on divers other days and times, as well before as afterward, make and declare, with a loud voice certain intemperate, inflammatory, and scandalous harangues, and therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces, as well against Congress as the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled in hearing, which are set forth in the several specifications hereinafter written, in substance and effect, that it to say:

the confrontation between johnson and the congress began in march of 1867 when he vetoed the tenure of office legislation that stated he could not remove or dismiss appointed officials without the approval of congress.  johnson felt this law was unconstitutional. following his removal of the secretary of war, congress began articles of impeachment.  the actual impeachment trial of andrew johnson ran from march 30 through may 26, 1868.  there were eleven articles of impeachment drawn against johnson, but in the end, he was acquitted on all counts.

the second president to be impeached was william jefferson clinton.  his trial lasted from january 7 through february 12, 1999.  there were four articles of impeachment drawn but only article one and article three were approved by the house.  clinton was acquitted on both charges when the required 2/3s majority was not reached.

the process to impeach president clinton began on september 11, 1998 ended on february 12, 1999 following years of investigation by the kenneth star.    indeed, the perjury charge itself was, according to many, a set-up to entrap president clinton so that charges could be brought against him.  unfortunately for him AND the nation, he fell easily into that trap.

in conclusion, impeachment proceedings are ONLY initiated upon serious allegations of gross misconduct [high crimes and misdemeanors] where there is sufficient evidence to draw up the articles of impeachment.  impeaching bush would place cheney in the office.

impeaching cheney would automatically require bush to select a new vice president that would have to be confirmed by congress.  by the time that process is complete, there is insufficient time in his term of office to  impeachment bush.

furthermore, should impeachment proceedings begin, the possibility of a pardon for all crimes committed by cheney would be heightened.  impeaching bush and leaving cheney in office would leave open the possibility of pardoning bush (in the same format that ford pardoned bush). [update: thanks to all who pointed out my wishful thinking - ford pardoned nixon, not bush.]

what would be accomplished by undertaking such an action?

unfortunately, without the requisite 2/3s majority to convict, all impeachment would do is give bush cover for his actions during his term of office.  he would become the "victim" in the eyes of history.

i personally would rather see impeachment reserved to remove justices scalia and thomas AFTER we gain a supermajority in congress.  that would be an impeachment worth having!  so, to acquire our supreme court again, i suggest we start looking toward electing that supermajority in 2008.

this is how we can take back our nation, restore our constitution, guarantee this travesty never happens again!

Tags: impeachment, president, vice president, supreme court, andrew johnson, bill clinton, george w. bush, dick cheney (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 90 comments

    •  I think we've had a very... (6+ / 0-)

      recent demonstration of how impeachment works.  But the one thing you've avoided mentioning is the "sunshine" it brings on the issues.  We all knew how rediculous impeaching Clinton was.  We were doubly certain once the process was completed.

      Whether we are successful in removing Bush and Cheney from office is not as important as shining some sunlight onto their crimes.  Both Republicans and Democrats have very historically tried to prevent actual crimes committed in goverment from being exposed to the light of day.  They feel that covering up these issues maintains the people's confidence in their government.  I disagree with them 180 degrees.

      Certainty generally is illusion, and repose is not the destiny of man. - OWH

      by blockbuster on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:21:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the sunshine of which you speak is already (0+ / 0-)

        being let in through the hearings on the hill.

        as we begin to scratch the surface and uncover the depth of corruption, we are also reminded that impeachment at THIS stage is very premature!  there is so much slime that we are just now discovering... the committees need to uncover the truth.

        just as we speak, the white house briefer stated that "the president did not intend for the vice president to be treated differently than himself".

        THAT is HUGE!  it is the president distancing himself from cheney!

        IF this continues, this could signal the end of cheney - this COULD be the beginning of his removal.

        flying into impeachment without allowing the republicans to implode first will only cause them to close ranks.

        that briefing right now, if you can, turn it on!  it would appear that bush is NOT happy with cheney usurping bushes power.

      •  Very Good point (0+ / 0-)

        And the other issue is that unpunished, these criminals will live to come back and do the same thing to our goverment again.

        Yes Dems will have power for awhile but it's politically naive to think that they can simply achieve and sustain a "super-majority" over the long term.

        Crooks need to be brought to justice, not ignored. Otherwise they will be back in office. This is clearly demonstrated by the current administration, retraed crooks from earlier Republican disasters that went unpunished.

    •  The President gets to pick a Vice President... (5+ / 0-)

      ... but per Section 2 of the 25th Amendment, both houses of Congress must approve that choice before the Vice President can take office.

      And if the President is impeached before that approval can be obtained, the Speaker of the House becomes President.

      It's an important detail you seem to have overlooked.

      "Without bitterness, all chocolate is a Hershey bar." -- Harry Shearer

      by tbetz on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:31:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  my point earlier is that if we want to (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, buhdydharma

        ensure that impeachment (conviction) fails in the senate, we will try to force the situation to replace a republican president with a democratic one.

        that will absolutely GUARANTEE that the republicans will nullify the proceedings.  there would be a bigger issue at stake... the loss of an elected presidency by the party.

        such actions would burn partisanship so firmly into our political scene that we might never recover!

  •  I disagree. (14+ / 0-)

    I think both Dick and W have met the 'high crimes and misdemeanors' watermark, and as such I believe that it is the House's duty to hold hearings and a vote.  If the vote passes, and Dick and/or W is impeached, then it is the Senate's duty to prosecute for removal.

    As for a new vice-president should Dick be removed, remember that W will have to nominate someone who can be approved by a Democratic controlled Congress.  There's no law that says that hearings against W can't be going on while hearings for a new VP are held.

    That's why I support H. Res. 333, the impeachment resolution brought forth by Dennis Kucinich.  Hold hearings and lay the whole fetid mess out so that the American people can judge it for themselves.

    This does not mean that we don't work for Democratic supermajorities in both the House and Senate.  That's a good idea.

    Go Ugh (!) and co-sponsors!
    Kucinich 2008

    Don't blame me, I support Dennis! http://kucinich.us

    by rjones2818 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:58:05 AM PDT

    •  the constituional order for chain of (0+ / 0-)

      command is president to v.p. to speaker.

      there would be absolutely NO chance of success for impeaching bush if a republican v.p. has not been confirmed.  that action would appear to the republicans as a blatant power-grab (to seat a democrat - pelosi) and would automatically ensure that there would be insufficient votes to remove bush.

      if we are going to explore this issue, let's stay within the bounds of what is real in our political structure... and the republicans simply standing by and turning over the reins of power to the democrats has no more chance of happening than the dems allowing the republicans to usurp the will of the people who elect a democrat!

      imagine being faced with clinton being convicted, gore marginalized and hastert becoming president!  it would never be allowed, nor SHOULD it be so.

      •  but but but-- (6+ / 0-)

        "there would be absolutely NO chance of success for impeaching bush if a republican v.p. has not been confirmed.  that action would appear to the republicans as a blatant power-grab"

        In which case, why do you fantasize about removing Scalia once there are Democratic supermajorities in both houses of Congress and a Democratic president?  Wouldn't that be a "blatant power grab" in the eyes of the Republicans as well?

        •  to remove EITHER justice, there must be (0+ / 0-)

          clear cut evidence of judicial misconduct.

          scratch the surface and the facts will be there - but it is too soon to start diverting attention toward the court.

          my point here is that the ussc justices are NOT annointed for life - they can be removed from office.

          habeas corpus?  ruling against our constitutional guarantees?  re-writing precedent?

          there are ways to change the court if that court steps out of line.

          i grew up seeing the "impeach earl warren" signs all OVER the south - fortunately, that didn't happen and the warren court made positive changes for the better in this nation, HOWEVER, my point here is that it CAN be done!

          but.... that is a diversion that is not needed right now.  it is not something that will happen any time in this electoral cycle - so let's leave that one for another day.

        •  Power grabs are always blatant; it's politics. (4+ / 0-)

          Shedding light seems the best reason for beginning impeachment proceedings.

          I see no real problem with the rest of Bush's term being him worrying about impeachment.

          The facts of his perfidy are on our side.

          The MSM would have something interesting to say about Bad Bush every single day.

          The public would finally see the Dems standing up, fierce and proud!

          We, the public, need some of that.

      •  I say we should go forward on impeachment. (6+ / 0-)

        To do otherwise, ie to be pragmatic, to me shows no spine, and the Repugs don't respect a party without any spine.  The new VP could be approved while hearings are held on W's impeachment.  I would suspect that he'd choose someone that could be passed (maybe John Warner or someone like him).  To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want Nancy Pelosi as president, so I think the new VP'd be installed before W was removed.

        Don't blame me, I support Dennis! http://kucinich.us

        by rjones2818 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:13:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  would you rather have ineffective (0+ / 0-)

          symbolism or realistic government?

          remember, we still have the issue of getting troops OUT of iraq - massive poverty in this country, a dangerously teetering healthcare system, global warming, etc.  most of all, we have iraq.

          if you had to choose between resolving and removing our troops from iraq OR proceeding with a time consuming impeachment that cannot succeed (yet), which would you choose?

          this isn't as simple as "let's just impeach the bastards!"

          the process for either one will take close to a year to complete.  the actual "impeachment" process is at least six months PER impeached.  they will not be cone back to back.

          so, now apply the cloak of realism and decide.

          which is more important?  feel good symbolism OR resolving critical problems wrought by this idiot?

          •  The problem: Symbolism vs. "Realistic Government" (5+ / 0-)

            Symbolism vs. Realistic Government is an interesting way to state the dichotomy.

            Does "Realistic Government" include the processes necessary to punish blatant, admitted, willful, defiance of the Constitution by a President and/or Vice President? Or is that mere symbolism?

            Bank Robbery is important enough for government to prosecute, whether or not a guilty verdict is guaranteed. That is because such prosecution is seen as a deterrent to future violation and a protection of our system and it's citizens.

            Do blatant high crimes and misdemeanors by our Chief Executive not rise to the societal importance of bank robbery? Do you really mean to imply that prosecution of willful unconstitutional behavior by the highest authorities in our land is merely symbolic?

            Thanks for the civics lesson, but I prefer "symbolism" that protects our way of life.

            We are all criminals until we restore Habeas Corpus, empty secret gulags, end torture and illegal wiretaps. (-2.25, -2.56)

            by EclecticFloridian on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:53:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  if you notice in this diary and the subsequent (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              vcmvo2, ormondotvos

              comments, i have NEVER said "don't impeach".

              my case here is that impeachment is, at the moment, premature.  investigations are ongoing and to draw up effective prosecutable articles of impeachment, we need many more pieces in place.

              the "realistic" part of all this is that we may not have sufficient time to complete the process.

              i am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing.  i am simply saying it is a "realism" thing.

              if we don't look at this issue dispassionately, we will not achieve the goals we all want - to stop bush cheney from doing further damage to this nation and the rest of the world.

              this isn't a game - the stakes are dead serious - just ask the families of the 3,546  dead and the 50,000+ wounded.

              we MUST pick our priorities and work toward an endgame that allows us to move on all issues in their own time!  (note: i did NOT say "stop impeachment issues - i said, "in their own time"!)

              •  If you notice you aren't accused of Don't Impeach (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                edrie, Jiminy Cricket

                I do imply that treating Impeachment Now as if it's mere "Symbolism" (your word) has the same effect. It has that effect whether because Imeachment will not happen if we wait too long or don't do it at all.

                Impeachment only needs one count, as you state. Bush has already publicly admitted to wiretaps without FISA warrants. There is already ample evidence that he did that knowing it was illegal. In fact, the Gonzales, Ashcroft, Comey bedside "chat" pretty much clinches it.

                That single count is enough to impeach. The Fourth Circuit has called him on defiance of the Constitution.

                How many impeachable counts of blatant illegality would satisfy "Realistic Government?" Two, Ten, Fifty?

                I and everyone that is here for more than the pictures, know how many have died and will continue to die as long as we wait for "Realistic Government" to guarantee that they will get a conviction.

                You see, the fact that we have known "this isn't a game" for years, is the exact reason Impeachment Now is imperative. The fact that "this isn't a game" is so obvious, that Impeachment Now appears to be the quickest way to stop the killing that you so clearly point out.

                Ensuring that our party wins an election is really secondary to the lives being lost.

                We are all criminals until we restore Habeas Corpus, empty secret gulags, end torture and illegal wiretaps. (-2.25, -2.56)

                by EclecticFloridian on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:11:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  the problem with the "impeachment now" (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  vcmvo2, EclecticFloridian

                  scenario is that is misses critical steps - like removing cheney from office.

                  i've always felt that bush's best "insurance policy" has been dick cheney.  NO one wants him holding onto power - having the code to the football. NO one wants him in office!

                  so the first step is to nail cheney - and he has proven extremely slippery by his refusal to participate in ANY hearing.

                  libby fell on his sword for cheney, giving him protection from prosecution and impeachment in the plame affair.

                  we may FINALLY have the smoking gun we need to remove cheney with this latest revelation of his that he is outside jurisdiction of law.

                  so, FIRST, cheney - then all else follows - but cheney has GOT to go first!

                  on that, can we agree?

          •  Politics IS Symbolism. All governance is. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            edrie

            The concept is memes. The problem is who introduces and modulates them.

            The Dems seem to not understand this very well.

            We need to get some cognitive science heavy hitters into the staffs of the Dem  Congresscritters.

            •  i think you have this somewhat (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              vcmvo2, ormondotvos

              skewed.

              politics is not "symbolism" - politics is the process for enacting legislation that meets the needs of the greater community.

              politics is about governing.  politics is about political ideology and people representing large blocks of constituents who subscribe to specific ideology.

              given the collection of political representatives from many divergent backgrounds and ideology, there is an inevitable push/pull that requires elected political representatives to strike compromise to proceed on ANY legislation.

              the cynical view that has become the current meme is somewhat puzzling.  i am curious to know why you feel this way!

              •  I feel this way because the evidence says so. (0+ / 0-)

                Maybe in an ideal world politics is the art of compromise, but with the advent of media in the thirties, so well exploited by the Third Reich, and followed up on by the advertisers and their psychology consultant class, politics seems to have become the art of manipulating the emotions of the comfortable until they do what the corporate class wants them to do.

                So I start from that evidential base, and figure that countermemes are the solution. Like Senator Clinton's wonderfully snarky diner ad, calling on so many responses: Carrots, telling the men what to do, since they're too dumb to do it themselves, picking a mystery song by Celine Dion, originally a happy fly the skies song, acknowledging the scowler who can't help himself.

                That was a criminally perfect ad there. You have to give them credit. They know what they're doing.

                Pelosi and Reid could learn a lot from Hillary.

      •  Republican VP is no problem (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        edrie, Jiminy Cricket

        as long as it's not another Cheney type, or other member of the neo-con brigade. As long as the person is not a candidate for President next time. How about bringing back Colin Powell? Or Richard Lugar? Lots of other Senators, always nice to create a vacancy: Pat Roberts, Elizabeth Dole, Lindsey Graham? Even Condi Rice. I would've said John "Bomb Iran" McCain a few years ago, but no more!

  •  another issue to consider... (3+ / 0-)

    should the articles of impeachment be passed by the house and the trial in the senate begin, all other business, such as the u.s.attty hearings, the cia outing, the gas gouging, v.p. secrecy, etc., would grind to a halt.

    what is more important?  uncovering the widespread abuse within our entire system or removing bush/cheney only months before they would be gone?

    IF bush does something so egregious that he would be impeached, imho, FIRST cheney would have to be removed.

    cheney is much more of a threat to this nation than george w. could ever be.  without cheney, bush would be without direction.

    also, after cheney is gone, then forcing bush to resign would be an option the republicans might consider providing an acceptable republican v.p. has been seated.

    it might be a compromise worth making.

    •  I don't get your logic.... (5+ / 0-)

      should the articles of impeachment be passed by the house and the trial in the senate begin, all other business, such as the u.s.attty hearings, the cia outing, the gas gouging, v.p. secrecy, etc., would grind to a halt.

      What do you think impeachment would be about if not the us attorney firings, the cia outing, gas gouging, vp secrecy, etc?

      There have to be grounds for impeachment.  All these issues, accusations and evidence would be rolled under one hearing umbrella - the impeachment hearing.  The added advantage would be that there would now be a clear purpose for the hearing - an end result. If you remember the Clinton hearings,  the evidence would be presented in a cohesive "trial-like" format, with questioning and evidence presented by committee counsel.  That is why impeachment is so important, even if we don't have the votes to convict in the Senate.  Impeachment hearings are a more effective vehicle for presenting the wrong-doing to the American people.

      Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

      by landrew on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:18:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes, those are ALL grounds for (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2

        impeachment AFTER the hearings are complete.

        to proceed at this time is the equivalent of taking the case to trial while the investigation is still ongoing.

        we are still in the middle of the process of investigating and gathering evidence that could be used to present to the house judiciary committee.

        until those hearings are completed and the findings have been issued, impeachment is premature.

        as i said, the process of investigating preceeds the process of impeachment.  we are still in the first phase... and the clock will most likely run out before we can complete phase two (cheney) and phase three (new v.p.) and phase four (bush).

        this is all about time, of which we do not have sufficient to succeed unless something SO egregious is uncoverd that the second and third phases are usurped and bush is forced to resign.

        •  Disagree, for one reason: (5+ / 0-)

          During impeachment hearings, the W.H. must comply with all subpoenas -- they CANNOT hide behind "executive privilege."

          Buy Mojo Friday gear and support our troops! Much better than a damn magnet.

          by MKinTN on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:49:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  refusing to comply with a legitimate (0+ / 0-)

            subpoena IS an impeachable offense!

            look at johnson's articles of impeachment, look at clinton's articles of impeachment.

            both were impeached for "obstructing" justice and impeding an investigation!

            that is the beauty of investigations... failure to comply with the law (in cheney's case, the current refusal to keep the archived records and attempts to dissolve the dept equates with the reasons for andrew's impeachment) can be as serious as the breach!

            bush violated the fisa laws - his own aides made the astounding statement that "not EVERYTHING we've done has been illegal!"  they know they have violated laws - the question is now how to present that evidence in the "court" of law (the senate)!

            clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with oral sex, clinton was impeached for impeding the paula jones/monica lewinsky investigation.

            the trap is being set - and so far, both cheney and bush are taking the bait fully!  or, have already committed such impeachable offenses that they are simply TRYING to run out the clock!

            why else would bush have "lawyered up"?

            •  Yes... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              edrie, Jiminy Cricket

              However, they can legitimately claim "executive privilege" even while appearing to comply with an ordinary subpoena from a Congressional committee.  During impeachment hearings, there is NO executive privilege AT ALL.

              Sadly, I think you are correct on the running out the clock part.

              Buy Mojo Friday gear and support our troops! Much better than a damn magnet.

              by MKinTN on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:26:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Here's how it would work.... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          edrie, ormondotvos, Jiminy Cricket
          1.  Someone introduces an impeachment resolution.
          1.  The House votes to refer the resolution to the Judiciary committee for hearings.
          1.  The JC conducts impeachment hearings. Here's where you get all the criminality rolled under one official and powerful umbrella for for investigation and analysis.
          1.  If appropriate based on the hearings and investigation, the JC votes on one or more articles of impeachment.
          1.  These articles of impeachment are then sent to the full House.

          Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

          by landrew on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:54:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  please check the body of the diary for (0+ / 0-)

            the process - i have explained it more fully - you missed several stages here.

            •  There are two paths to impeachment. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              edrie, Jiminy Cricket

              It can originate with the JC, as you describe, or it can originate when any representative brings a resolution to the floor, as Kucinich has done.

              "An impeachment proceeding can begin with a direct impeachment resolution or an inquiry of impeachment resolution. An inquiry of impeachment resolution differs from a direct impeachment resolution in that an inquiry constitutes a preliminary investigation. While a direct impeachment resolution simply call for a vote to impeach the official, an inquiry resolution commences an inquiry into whether an impeachment resolution would be appropriate. It is a prudent first step in the impeachment process."

              http://library.thinkquest.org/...

              If you take this route, the JC takes on the role of a grand jury, investigating the validity of the charges and determining whether articles of impeachment are appropriate.

              Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

              by landrew on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:40:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, Bush and Darth would be gone. And the (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      edrie, Jiminy Cricket

      Cloud of dirt raised by the investigations and revelations would so soil the Rethugs that it would further increase that supermajority you seek.

      What is missing, glossed over, marginalized, and ignored is the very real, constantly polled, easily understood anger of the common voter of both stripes at the overcareful dithering of the leaders of congress when asked to do their very important job of oversight.

      We elected them to impeach. AND run the country. Work more hours. Stay at work.

      Members of congress want accolades, but they don't want to lean up and mean up to do it.

      Yet they are not afraid to tell us working stiffs that it's a tougher world out there.

      Fair's fair.

      •  ah but we DIDN'T elect them to impeach... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2

        we elected them to enact laws, pass budgets, enact legislation to run this government AND to have oversight on the machinations of government.

        what we did NOT do was elect them to impeach.  had that been the mandate we demanded, we would not now be in the majority since sufficient middle of the roaders were also responsible for defeating the republicans and electing democrats.

        perhaps the far left wing of this party was electing to "impeach", but it was not the mainstream goal.  ending the war in iraq was more the focus than impeachment.

        •  Yes, and when you have an Executive Branch (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          edrie, ormondotvos

          that thinks they can subvert and obstruct those laws and thumb their nose at your oversight, then what?

          The million dollar question is this:
          Do we want the Executive branch to have these new powers or not?

          If we do nothing, then intentional or not, the answer for the next Republican president will be Yes!.

          It's like Apple and Microsoft. Without Apple, Microsoft wouldn't have anything to copy. Edwards is the idea factory. -demwords

          by Jiminy Cricket on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 01:24:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  each step in confronting an out of control (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, ormondotvos

            branch of government must be played out. first the hearings.  then the questions, then the witnesses who impeach that testimony.  then the recalling of witnesses.

            if that doesn't get results, then the subpoenas, the documents, and when ignored, the court challenges.

            this process is a building block for the court of last resort: removal from officeby impeachment.

            we MUST follow these stages of development.  this is not a game or something that is done lightly... it goes to the very severest form of punishment our political system offers short of nurenburg trials.

            in this time where our very form of government is under attack, it is critical that we USE that form of government (the process) for a resolution.

            to do otherwise means the entire system fails... permanently.

  •  Thanks For Being so Civil (7+ / 0-)

    I know this whole process can be done in a few months. The key will be getting the Republicans to see that their own interests are at stake.

    Remember, THEY hate us for our Freedom! The freedom for the President to do as he damn well pleases.

    by Tuba Les on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:01:52 AM PDT

    •  yes, the process can be done, however (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tuba Les, ormondotvos

      that is the "final" process.  the investigations and gathering of evidence to present to the house judiciary committee comes first.

      if you are following the judiciary committee - that is being done right now.

      i have no doubt that the collection of massive evidence of misconduct is being done with the spector of impeachment hovering over those files - but that process has not played out yet.

      IF cheney ignores the subpoenas, the next step is through the courts - all the way up to the supreme court.  that doesn't happen over night.  the ussc can delay ruling for months or even into the next session, and with the make up of this court, it might very well happen to prevent that very investigation from moving forward in time to impeach.  why would they NOT delay?

      well, remember, IF the court is found to be acting politically, they, TOO, can be impeached!  

      this is a deliberate dance that requires ALL pieces being carefully put into place before action can be taken.

      •  I think the investigations will never end. And we (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        edrie

        will therefore never impeach.

        Any student of PERT (Program Evaluation Review Technique) can tell you that there are usually ways to combine streams of work (investigations) so that they input into the process (impeachment) at the proper time, shortening the time needed to complete the process.

        I hope someone is looking at the process this way.

        I think some of the disagreement here could be resolved by putting forth PERT solutions.

        •  ah, but the framers designed impeachment to (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rincewind, vcmvo2, ormondotvos

          BE slow and cumbersome.  if it were easy, government would cease to function.

          this is the most serious action congress can take - to remove an elected president or vice president from office.

          it is done with great gravitas.  

          when agnew was forced out, the country reeled.  when nixon left, the country was shell-shocked (relieved, but shell-shocked)

          this is, in effect, a legal coup d'tat.  such an undertaking should NOT be streamlined - it should NOT be done on emotional whim - it should NOT be done without careful study and deliberation!

          we are talking about overthrowing an elected government - we are NOT talking about recalling the governor of california with all the ensuing circus that followed.

          the implications of removing a sitting president on a global stage holds great consequence.

          streamlining this process sets a very dangerous precedent in the future - it would hamstring ANY president if that president could be easily removed.

          we need to step back and take the long view in this situation.  this is not something to be done lightly.

    •  oh, you're welcome for the civil (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tuba Les

      part.

      we've all been so emotional about the destruction of this country and are taking it out on each other.

      last night, i finally decided to remove the layer of emotion and look at the physical process for impeachment to see if it is a viable option.

      my own hunch is that if cheney is impeached (VERY possible after the records/archiving issues), then there will be a compromise struck with the moderate republicans to put a moderate republican in as v.p.

      that will keep bush in checkmate re: iran and further abuses.  IF he steps out of line, then the late nite visit reminiscent of nixon's surprise could be in order.

      impeachment of bush?  doubt it, but resignation is a real possibility if he sees no way out.  he's cut and run before on every endeavor he's made - why would he change now, especially if his "power base" is gone!

      bush is a bully and a coward.  when he no longer has cover of his "home.ys", i can easily see him getting the hell outta dodge!

  •  I'm confused. (7+ / 0-)

    You would impeach a couple of Supreme Court justices, who clearly have committed no (provable) high crimes or misdemeanors, but would not impeach Bush or Cheney, who clearly have done so.

    And you yourself prove wrong your comment that

    in conclusion, impeachment proceedings are ONLY initiated upon serious allegations of gross misconduct

    by your reference to the "loud voice" count against Johnson.

    Furthermore, the Congress does not have to wait for Bush to nominate a new VP.  They can return, and try, simultaneous articles of impeachment against both of them; or, having impeached Cheney first, the Congress can simply refuse to act on Bush's VP nomination and the Speaker would become President on Bush's removal (and would nominate her own VP).

    It is the folly of youth to think they can change the world; it is the folly of old age not to try. -- Winston Churchill

    by penguins4peace on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:02:11 AM PDT

  •  I think the assumption that bothers me most (5+ / 0-)

    ...is that there's no way that the senate would vote to convict in any situation or circumstance.  Investigations and illumination on the facts might sway a small group of Republicans to just do what is right and get rid of the criminals in power.  Certainly I can't guarantee this will happen, but I hate the idea that congress can't even be bothered to try.

    Let me put this in terms of a sports analogy.  Little Boise State won all their regular season games in college football this last season.  They were allowed to play with the big boys in the BCS (Bowl Championship Series, or something like that) against Oklahoma, the perennial powerhouse in college football.  No one gave Boise State a shot at winning this game.  It's one thing to beat the little guys in their conference, but it's another to beat one of the best college football programs in history.

    So, according to the conventional wisdom shown by some here, why bother?

    Yet, Boise State bothered to show up and played their hearts out.  The final score: Boise St 43 Oklahoma 42.  

    I'm just sick to death of people saying "Oh, we don't have this or that, let's just not do anything."

    Congress has the backing of the American people, a 51% majority that will grow as more investigations shed light on just how corrupt and dangerous these thugs in the Executive Branch are.   And if the Democrats finally go after Bush, there's a chance that the US will finally start to regain respect that has been completely destroyed in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    •  i hope my diary didn't imply that the senate (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ssmt, vcmvo2

      would never "under any circumstances" impeach with a 2/3s majority.  i think i kept qualifying with that little word ... "yet".

      my point in this diary is that impeachment talks now are spurring investigations and digging that may very well uncover the irrefutable evidence that will push the republicans into supporting by 2/3s majority the impeachment of both parties.

      this recent cheney assertation that he/his office are above/outside the law is a case in point.  ALL evidence regarding this administration is being examined and the more the sunlight hits, the stronger the stench.

      at some point, the republicans who wish to remain in government service may have no choice but to push them out, if for no other reason than to save their own hides!

      during the press conference a few minutes ago, the fracture lines between bush/cheney are already widening.  perino stated that bush NEVER intended cheney to be "different" from regulations that apply to the president - bush is throwing cheney under the bus on this one.

      why would he do that?  to save his OWN hide.  if cheney is going down, bush will try to distance himself to keep from being dragged down as well.

      so, at THIS point in time, there are not sufficient votes - but tomorrow or the next day or the next day, the "evidence" needed to convince the reticent republicans may emerge.

      we have to allow the process to complete itself.  the investigations by the committees MUST be completed fully first!

  •  but the judicial branch.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    edrie, Turkana, costello7

    is a small part of the problem. i think just bringing articles of impeachment to the floor sends the message that the american people will not tolerate a white house like this.

    •  and so does an election! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2

      the most immediate concerns of congress SHOULD be iraq and the rest of the mess this government is currently embroiled deep within.

      impeachment for impeachment's sake without a chance of success would be a gross misuse of the congressional time and power.  HOWEVER, at the completion of the hearings from the judiciary, armed services, budget committees, etc., THEN impeachment may very well be BACK on that table!

      and we haven't even gotten to the cronyism and fraud concerning the contractors and missing billions.

      impeachment is a cart/horse issue.

  •  i'm recommending because it's well-considered, (6+ / 0-)

    but...

    if cheney is impeached and removed, the democrats would be able to force bush's hand on appointing a successor. at that point, it would be clear that both congress and the public are finally taking the administration's crimes seriously. bush would know he was in trouble. he would face the possibility of being removed and replaced by pelosi. in other words, the democrats could give him a short list of truly moderate, unifying republican elders, none of whom have any interest in '08, and tell him that only one of them would be confirmed.

    impeachment is a process, and i favor beginning it. clearly, bush and cheney have committed high crimes and misdemeanors. when the proceedings against nixon began, he had 60% approval ratings, and most people thought watergate was just a minor distraction. we're already much further along, both in terms of public unrest and knowledge of criminal activity. even without any public discussion of it, even by leading democrats, bush has a 26% approval rating, while 39% already favor impeachment. it wouldn't take much effort to prime the public.

    finally- historically, impeachment proceedings that actually get to the senate fail. that's pure politics. johnson and clinton were both impeached for purely partisan reasons. the proceedings against nixon were legit. once the evidence was clear, and the public was on board, the party elders forced him to resign. the same would happen with bush. it would never get to the senate. once the crimes were methodically laid out, and that 39% had risen 15-20 points, the republicans wouldn't sacrifice their own careers for bush. starting the proceedings, asap, is both legally and politically the right thing to do.

    •  ah, turk... we agree more than you realize! (3+ / 0-)

      i am ALL for impeaching cheney as SOON as we have the evidence to succeed (and that "evidence" is there, along with the support of many republicans, i'd venture to say).

      as for impeaching bush, IF he were faced with conviction and removal from office, i am convinced he would pull a nixon and resign.

      my "vision" of what will happen is that cheney will develop "medical issues" prior to impeachment and then bush will either toe the line or will be paid a little "visit" and will then resign.

      as for pelosi, that will never happen.  the real task is to find a good moderate republican (or neutral one like ford) that everyone can live with who will replace cheney - that will set the stage for bush to go.

      it can happen, it just won't happen through "impeachment" in the senate.  however, that said, the groundswell calling for their ouster WILL help push them out.

      bush will NOT want to go down in history as the first president removed from office - and if impeachment goes that far, he will face certain removal.

      again, a chess game - and we are still in possession of all our pawns, rooks, bishops, knights and castles (not forgetting our queen!)  bush, on the other hand is getting down to very few pieces!  we can chase him around the board ad infinitum OR we can lay out the trap for checkmate!

      imho, that is exactly what the congress is doing right now.

      kn to Q4!

  •  Excellent diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    edrie

    One of the best I have read in a long time, highly rec'd.

    And I am glad that impeachment is such a difficult thing to pull off. It's a very sharp sword, and needs to be wielded very carefully.

    That said, those who argue that it's not time for impeachment and that we can't secure a conviction, I'd have to ask: if not now, when? If the US Constitution had applied, would Hitler get impeached? Stalin?

    I've got a few additional thoughts:

    impeaching cheney would automatically require bush to select a new vice president that would have to be confirmed by congress.  by the time that process is complete, there is insufficient time in his term of office to  impeachment bush.

    What if Congress pursued impeachment of Bush BEFORE considering his replacement VP?

    Would it be possible to file an article of impeachment against both at the same time?

    Since Roberts would be presiding over the impeachment trial, how would his closeness to Bush affect the procedure? Could he throw a monkey wrench into the process?

    And finally, what if, theoretically, Roberts himself was impeached (strictly theoretical, since I am not aware of any high crime or misdemeanor he has been accused of)?

    Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz, SPC Eli Israel: true American heroes.

    by sdgeek on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:54:18 AM PDT

    •  first the last issue... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GOTV

      let's hold off on the ussc issue - it takes more time than this diary can do justice to... (pardon the pun).

      i don't believe the congress can hold simultaneous impeachment proceedings BUT, just on the offchance that they could, IF bush were impeached, cheney would become president immediately upon removal.

      if cheney were impeached first, then bush could, during the trial, appoint another v.p. who would have to be confirmed by both houses, according to the 25th amendendment.

      now, if i were a member of the party being impeached, i would be loathe to convict PRIOR to that appointment - so i would be tempted to acquit to prevent a party usurping the office.  very VERY iffy situation here where the proceedure could undermine the process of impeachment.

      as for roberts - that would be a real problem.  i don't know if he could be forced to recuse himself and he could definitely throw that wrench into the works.  we no longer have an impartial court.  that is as frightening as the actions of bush/cheney.  we also do not have an independent judicial branch.  remember, the "prosecutor" would come from the gonzales doj... another HUGE hurdle to overcome.

      as for your other question:

      That said, those who argue that it's not time for impeachment and that we can't secure a conviction, I'd have to ask: if not now, when?

      the answer is simple.

      the "when" is after we have the hearings completed with sufficient evidence and exposure that even the far right 26% cannot ignore it.

      that day is closer than any of us realize - the 3,546 dead american soldiers and the returning wounded and maimed are changing that opinion as significantly as those who sacrificed in viet nam changed public opinion in the 60's and 70's.

      if not when?   soon... my friend, soon!  times they are a'changin'!

      •  When... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        edrie

        Thanks for your answers!

        the "when" is after we have the hearings completed with sufficient evidence and exposure that even the far right 26% cannot ignore it.

        Aren't the hearings part of the impeachment process?

        I was under the impression that as soon as you have some evidence (and I think we have plenty right now) you file articles of impeachment first, and THEN hold the hearings.

        In fact, I think that's what most people are upset about. Close to everybody realizes that impeachment doesn't happen in a day, but it seems to me that even the little bits that have started - the Kucinich articles of impeachment, in particular - are ignored.

        And, by the way, I think removing Cheney may actually be sufficient as long as we also prevent him from pulling strings behind the scene, since Bush is just a puppet. I think Bush might end up having to settle for a do-nothing VP.

        Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz, SPC Eli Israel: true American heroes.

        by sdgeek on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 05:55:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  during watergate, the hearings were held on the (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2

          breakin- it was DURING those hearings that the secret white house taping system was uncovered, the talks with nixon re the breakin came out, etc.

          we are in the early fact gathering stage to see how much is directly in bush's lap or how much he can foist off on the fools that fall on their swords for him.

          like libby "protected" cheney, there are other loyalists that will go to any link to coverup the president and vice president's involvement.

          we need more than what we have now since we have only begun to uncover the tip of the iceberg.

          for one example, think the email coverups with gwb3.com  that the whitehouse actively was using a hidden server to avoid the records act and break the law is just being unveiled now.  we don't want to go to impeachment UNTIL we have those emails safely in hand - and that will take going after the servers of the recipients.

          there is still too much unknown to start the legal proceedings right now.  we need to know how deep and how virulent the cancer is before we start cutting.

  •  agreed - recommending impeachment (3+ / 0-)

    While many may be concerned with backlash against the Dems for a brutal and contentious fight, we need to take as many of the administrations props if we hope to weaken their stranglehold on the constitution, the nation, and anything else they want to control.

    My only concern is this:

    Do Pelosi and Reid have the cojones and the gravitas to fire back at right wing pundits and Fox News when they start complaining about how it weakens the nation, its irresposible in a time of war, and how it takes focus away from fighting our enemies?

    If our esteemed majority leaders can't fire back with intelligent, go-for-the-throat responses and stick to their guns on the issues of impeachment WITHOUT kowtowing to a centrist, let's make nice doctrine of failure -- I say go for it.  

    Without that steadfast adherence to a strategy and a willingness to be dismissive and scornful of people who will never support your course anyway, the effort to impeach, the Democratic Party, and the Reid/Pelosi duo, will never have any teeth.

    Does this sound reasonable?  Who thinks R/P have the required sack for this fight?  I wish I could say they did - but they hardly fill me with confidence.

    •  pelosi and reid are NOT stupid or (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GOTV, vcmvo2

      politically naive... they will undertake the fight when the evidence in in place and they can and will win the fight.

      to do so prior to having that evidence solidly in hand shows political stupidity and suicide and they then would deserve the scorn of the world for blowing a sure thing!

      what i have tried to point out here is that impeachment is a process that does NOT move quickly on a whim - it is designed to move slowly on a solid foundation of evidence - evidence that is not yet complete!

      WHEN all the pieces are in place, then reid and pelosi will be unbeatable!  i have watched both of them on the floor - they are NOT people who are "weak" or "cave"  both leaders AND the dems in congress know the basics of "warfare" - which is, you pick your battles and you don't fight from the downhill position - you BETTEr be on top of that ridge before you begin to fight!

      •  Absolutely - (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        edrie

        I agree with most of what you are saying and I recognize that impeachment is a long process.  And I don't mean/want to take the wind out of anyone's sails.  But the notion that Reid and Pelosi are unbeatable is far from accurate, and I'm a little concerned when it comes time for them to play real poker.

        You and I both know that people who are quite bold on the floor can sometimes whither when there are more than just c-span's cameras pointed their way.

        I just get a little worried with their penchant for drama - a la the signing ceremony for a bill that was destined for a veto.  Calling attention to a non-victory that way is NOT playing hardball.  

        BELIEVE ME - I hope beyond hope that they are tougher and smarter than that.  If the take on that fight, I will support them 100%.  

        I believe that the undertaking fo this needs to be done in defense of our constitution and as a means to show that that these things cannot be allowed to happen.  I bear no illusions that it would remove BushCo from Office.  

        I DO however worry that the inevitable blowback needs to be handled correctly or we could squander 2008 and end up knee deep in Iran.  If we aren't already at that point.  

        •  the signing statement fanfare was political (0+ / 0-)

          theatre to draw the attention of the public to that bill and the war - knowing full well that bush would shoot it down.

          that "theatrical event" highlighted bush as the one perpetuating the war.

          i spent 30 years in the theatre, designing, directing, etc... and that was brilliant theatre to gain media attention. yes, they KNEW the bill would be vetoed, but without the fanfare, the veto would have been lost in the daily shuffle of paris hilton/missing white girl/traffic accident on freeway type news.

          if you don't watch cspan regularly, start.  you will take much comfort with what you see from our side of the aisle!

          congress isn't what most people think it is.  yes, parts are dry and wordy - but the underlying theatre is shakespearean of the finest order!

          •  fair enough I suppose (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            edrie

            Trust me, with my BFA I know theatre when I see it.  There wasn't much else going on at the time, so the press went in the right direction.  

            But I personally think there was more leverage there, and they should have used it.  Or been very quiet about it until it the time was right to scream bloody murder.

            Plus - I think they opened themselves up to all kinds of ridicule with the pork in the original versions of the bill.  We need to fight smarter than this.  While there is certainly gathering momentum and the year is far from over, I hope that the theatrics were a warm up and a experimental poke at the media...in the run up to a more pointed attack.  

  •  Thank you for this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    edrie, vcmvo2

    It's the first even-tempered diary on the impeachment issue in a long while--I acknowldege Major Danby's impeachment polling diary as another good one--and one that actually is informative rather than inflamatory.  

    Highly recommeded, though it will be largely ignored by the Imeachment Quixotes other than, perhaps, as a vehicle to remind those a little less sanguine on the issue just how ignorant we are.

    Nice work.