Daily Kos

Book Review: Drew Westen's "The Political Brain"

Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:22:35 AM PDT

The Political Brain
The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation
By Drew Westen
Public Affairs
New York, 2007

When reason and emotion become disconnected, the result is often disaster. Sometimes that disaster may take the form of a neurology patient who, like those described by Damasio, can’t use emotion to stay out of harm’s way. Sometimes it takes the form of a psychopath, a person who experiences little or no remorse, empathy, or concern for others, who may know he is breaking laws or causing others pain, but doesn’t care.

At other times, that disaster may take the form of a Democratic political campaign.

Ouch.

In his handling of the Swift Boat affair, what Kerry effectively told the American people was what he would do if America were attacked: he would wait an inordinate amount of time until he had gathered enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, use polls and focus groups to see what kind of response Americans preferred, and then write our enemies a letter imploring them to stop their terrorist acts immediately.

Sometimes, the meta-message is the message.

Double pointed ouch.

... the left has no brand, no counterbrand, no master narrative, no counternarrative. It has no shared terms or "talking points" for its leaders to repeat until they are part of our political lexicon. Instead, every Democrat who runs for office, every Democrat who offers commentaries on television or radio, every Democrat who even talks with friends at the water cooler, has to reinvent what it means to be a Democrat, using his or her own words and concepts, as if the party had no history.

If this is how Coke marketed itself, we would all be drinking Pepsi.

  • ::

Someone had to say it, obviously. And Drew Westin, a clinical psychologist and political strategist from Emory University, has stepped up to the plate in The Political Brain to give a scathing, sobering diagnosis of what ails a political party whose beliefs are in line with the majority of Americans on almost every issue and yet fails to translate that alignment into sustainable electoral success. Armed with numerous studies on how the brain operates in that crucial interplay between emotion and reason that energizes voters, Westin has succeeded in penning a manifesto on behalf of bringing the passionate back into the narrative—and actions—of the Democratic Party.

Building on neural pathway studies and what is revealed about how the brain works in complex unconscious networks, the author discusses how partisans use facts and rationality not to form opinions but rather to reinforce previously held "gut" beliefs about values and principles, Westin exhorts the current leadership and strategists of the Democratic Party to stop campaigning on laundry lists of policy issues and begin speaking in terms of passion, using narratives and bold messages to engage an often apathetic electorate.

Democrats, and particularly Democratic strategists, tend to be intellectual. They like to read and think. They thrive on policy debates, arguments, statistics, and getting the facts right.

All that is well and good, but it can be self-destructive politically when alloyed with a belief in the moral superiority of the cerebral at heart, because moral condescension registers with voters.... They do so, I believe, because of an irrational emotional commitment to rationality--one that renders them, ironically, impervious to both scientific evidence on how the political mind and brain work and to an accurate diagnosis of why their campaigns repeatedly fail.

He notes the incongruity evident when the very party that considers itself most empathetic to the plight of the suffering is the most reluctant to make use of emotion when presenting its case as the standard-bearer of heartfelt American values. "The paradox of American politics," he writes, "is that when it comes to winning hearts and minds, the party that views itself as the one with the heart (for the middle class, the poor, and the disenfranchised) continues to appeal exclusively to the mind."

This reluctance, Westin maintains, is killing Democrats who go up against a savvy Republican Party with a long track record of appealing to the emotional side of voters. Traditional Democratic advisors (and rank and file Democrats as well) for the most part view targeting voters’ emotions as ultimately manipulative and unethical, an understandable hesitation in light of the GOP’s proven ability to prey on fear, prejudice and wrath—through lies—to win elections. Yet resorting to unethical manipulation doesn’t have to be modus operandi, Westin points out. Repeatedly, in dozens of different ways, he attempts to talk progressives out of this irrational reluctance to eschew dry cerebral policy issues in favor of targeting the hearts and values of American citizens. He makes the distinction clear in this passage:

My goal in this book is not to advocate that Democrats emulate the ethics of Karl Rove. But there is no relation between the extent to which an appeal is rational or emotional and the extent to which it is ethical or unethical. Every appeal is ultimately an emotional appeal to voters’ interests—what’s good for them and their families—or their values—what matters to them morally. The question that decides elections is whether the appeal is a weak one or a strong one.

And he reiterates this stance in this passage:

The central thesis of this book—that successful campaigns compete in the marketplace of emotions and not primarily in the marketplace of ideas—may at first blush be disquieting to many Democrats. But the reality is that the best way to elicit enthusiasm in the marketplace of emotions is to tell the truth. There is nothing more compelling in politics than a candidate who is genuine. And the issues that most tempt politicians to spin and parse are precisely the ones on which they should tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Westin is fierce in his criticism of past Democratic presidential campaigns and cites many examples of the kind of dead, vague, safe language and symbolism so beloved of establishment strategists and party leaders. Overreliance on focus groups and polls have turned our candidates into cardboard caricatures who appear pandering and lifeless to any voter who manages to tune in. For this failing, he largely blames the handlers and strategists (Bob Shrum takes a lion’s share of heat):

Most importantly, their obsessive attention to facts and figures, their caution and risk aversion, their indifference or disdain toward emotion, and their conflicts around anger and aggression (which may lead them to generate rationalizations against attacking or responding to attacks), leave them misattuned to some of the most important emotional signals in electoral politics, such as whether a candidate has charisma, what nonverbal signals he or she is sending, what emotions the candidate is or is not activating in the electorate, and when it is time to capture the moment with a positive or a negative appeal. Such individuals may seem highly competent because of their capacity to read power dynamics, and at times this may lead them to make good calls. But they are fundamentally handicapped by an emotional style that runs contrary to what is required, particularly in the era of television, of someone charged with managing the emotions of the electorate.

In the case of the Kerry campaign, and subsequent public Democratic leadership positions since the 2004 loss, the author is particularly harsh in his condemnation of the unwillingness of party spokespeople to come out swinging to boldly declare the current administration’s methods and lies in violation of everything this country purports to stand for. In fact, it’s a lapse of ethics in itself not to attack passionately the reign of destruction that has ensued, asserting that "the failure to ‘go negative’ against an incumbent whose behavior is deeply immoral or destructive to America’s moral authority is itself an ethical failure."

For those who take refuge in cerebral rationality when there is much to get angry and emotional about, Westin asserts that the Republicans have consistently displayed harrowing depths of viciousness and lack of remorse. "People without conscience," he states, "respond to aggression, not to appeals to the conscience they don’t have." As such, he offers this reminder:

Martin Luther King and Lyndon Johnson didn’t make their case for "all men are created equal" by addressing the smokescreens put up by Southern politicians to stop black people from voting. They didn’t argue about the pros and cons of literacy in a Democratic electorate to make a case against literary tests. They didn’t argue about the utility or disutility of poll taxes in a republic. They understood that this was just the smoke, and that the real issue was the fire in the belly of those who were burning the crosses.... You don’t put out a fire by waving at the smoke. You put out the fire. And if someone keeps starting those fires, you put out the arsonist.

Throughout The Political Brain, Westin offers alternative narratives that Democrats could have offered if they’d not shivered and balked in the face of polls to use conciliatory, "safe" language on key issues. In particular, he provides sample narratives on some of the most divisive issues stirred up in the electorate—guns, abortion, gay marriage—without claiming his examples are the only possible responses. He emphasizes that these are issues on which Americans face internal conflict as beliefs in fairness, safety and privacy weigh against the GOP’s seizing of the "moral" high ground of sanctimony and the American tradition of individualism. Openly acknowledging these internal conflicts within individuals—and not just between polled demographic chunks—allows for some nuance about some truly gray areas with which a majority of conflicted citizens struggle.

Near the end of the book, the author sums up what cognitive science has learned about the interplay of reason and emotion, and what the implications are (or should be) for successful future Democratic campaigns:

Voters tend to ask four questions that determine who they will vote for, which provide a hierarchy of influences on the decisions about whether and how to vote: "How do I feel about the candidate’s party and its principles?" "How does this candidate make me feel?" "How do I feel about this candidate’s personal characteristics, particularly his or her integrity, leadership, and compassion?" and "How do I feel about he candidate’s stand on issue that matter to me?"

Candidates who focus their campaigns toward the top of this hierarchy and work their way down generally win. They drink from the wellsprings of partisan feelings. They tell emotionally compelling stories about who they are and what they believe in.... They run on who they are and what they genuinely care about, and they know their constituents well enough to know where they share their values and where they don’t.... They speak at the level of principled stands. They provide emotionally compelling examples of the ways they would govern, signature issues that illustrate their principles and foster identification.

Issues, in this view, are the outcome of unconsciously formed value presumptions. They should follow and illustrate the deeply held beliefs of the Democratic Party about justice, opportunity and equality. They are the visible and detailed roadmap of how to bring shared values into everyday life; without a clear master narrative of what Democrats stand for, issues alone are policy wonk drivel that voters learn to dismiss as irrelevant and boring. The job of Democratic leaders today is to convey clearly both their bedrock party principles and their passion to make them concrete in policy and legislation. Sometimes that means calling out the other side in the strongest terms imaginable on its extreme and undemocratic assumptions and methods.

And lest progressives fear that clear, fearless language and savvy use of today’s varied media—and that in Westin words, "negative campaigning is inherently unethical"—I leave you with this one observation from the author to ponder about this country’s most devoted practitioners of Enlightenment, our Founders:

Anyone who believes this should read the Declaration of Independence.

Tags: book review, Drew Westen, The Political Brain (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 267 comments

  •  He, at least, gives Dems the benefit of a doubt. (7+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    Miles, Winnie, Kidspeak, Webster, drewfromct, GreyHawk, mathGuyNTulsa
    Hidden by:
    Woody

    They're aren't in cahoots with corporations just like the Republicans, Dems are just too stupid or crippled to articulate their roots.  I don't think that I buy it.  

    ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

    by dkmich on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:29:31 AM PDT

    •  I don't agree (20+ / 1-)

      Dems are very much in cahoots with corporations.  The difference is that Dems are in cahoots with different corporations.

      Nor are they too stupid or crippled to articulate their roots.  Doing so would threaten the funding and support they receive from corporations.  I know it is really simple-minded of me, but I can't figure any other reason.  They can't all be this stupid, it has to be because they know the funding will dry up if they address inequality in any real, effective way.

      "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

      by matthewc on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:36:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They're not in cahoots with (6+ / 0-)

        the primary purpose of the corporation (other than pooling assets) which is to shield the individual participant from being accountable and liable for the decisions he/she makes.
        I don't think most Democrats even think about evading responsibility.
        When the corporation is touted as a vehicle for sharing risk, what it's really promoting is a way for individuals to act without risking their own assets.

        Governments, after all, are simply public corporations which are set up to share or mitigate the inevitable negatives which nature throws up for human beings.  But, governments are about dealing with negatives without destroying the individual.  The business corporation has been set up to protect the individual from his own bad decisions.  To a large extent, the effort to transfer government functions to the private corporation (privatization) is simply an effort to make public resources available to the whims of individuals without holding them accountable for their bad decisions.

        Democrats should not be blamed for failing to envision this situation.  It never occurs to them to be irresponsible.

        How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

        by hannah on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:07:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I simply do not (8+ / 0-)

          share this rosy view of government and of the Democratic Party specifically.  To suggest that it never occurs to Democrats to be irresponsible is about as ridiculous a suggestion as can be imagined.  I'm a Dem, I vote Dem, and I work and volunteer on behalf of the party's candidates, but I will never drink so much Kool-Aid that I believe them to be super-human.  

          "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

          by matthewc on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:35:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Strategic Goal of Corporations is... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arlene

          ...to enhance shareholder value, i.e., investor value, or stock price.

          We will have to restructure corporations to
          "enhancing stake-holder value," i.e.,
          enhancing workers' values,
          enhancing customers' values,
          enhancing civic values.

          It's not a long shot if we do it right.  

          First, reduce CEO & Exec compensation to a matrix which punishes them for bad civic behavior like pollution, failure of "green" initiative standards, export of jobs (creation of overseas jobs), or investment of money or people in like operations that damage the US or engage in use of any loopholes that contradict these initiatives.

          Second, enforce standards on employees that make it possible to live utility free by selling the power they generate to power generation companies at a price fixed at 10% over the cost of buying power from these same companies.

          If they can do these things in Germany, we can do them over here. US is still the best game on the planet for these criminals: all they neeed is a bit of counseling about laws.

          Reduce the military budget according to these same standards. The military is already doing it!!!

          Frankly, our values have already won in many ways, but money is used to game the system and corrupt it.

          "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

          by ezdidit on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:25:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hey Woody (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dkmich, Andy Lewis

        Why the troll-rating?  What about this comment would suggest that I'm a troll?  That's fucked.

        "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

        by matthewc on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:59:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Uprated to cancel out a bogus TR. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dkmich

        "Every goddamn Republican in the country is a traitor." -- Perry Logan.

        by Andy Lewis on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:53:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think that some Democrats... (6+ / 0-)

      ....are more interested with making nice with big money, but there are also a number of Democrats, both moderate and liberal, who make the mistakes that Westen points out.

    •  So truly tiresome, have a donut (13+ / 0-)

      Here in this book review, a new and different way of looking at our problems is presented. But you don't want anyone to discuss that information. Instead you selfishly attempt to seize control of the thread by repeating the same tired bash-Democrats stuff that has infected dKos like one of the pandemic plagues we are warned about in other posts.

      Conspiracy theories are supposedly banned from this site. It is also supposedly a Democratic site. But your comment is damn close to being a conspiracy theory, implying that the one and only discussion-worthy explanation for our party's troubles is that some leaders have connections with some corporation. And your comment is -- no doubt about it -- as profoundly negative about the Democratic Party as any Repub poster could put up without being banned.

      But please understand that I'm not giving you the donut you so richly deserve today because I disagree with what you say. I give you the donut because you want to derail discussion of new insights in favor of repeating the tired old negativism which can already be found in overabundance in a dozen or a hundred other diaries and thousands of other comments. You are diary hijacking. I regret that I have but one donut to give you.

      And not only incidentally I'm bored --itless by your comment, because it is totally devoid of anything remotely new or not heard a thousand times before. It is boring, boring, boring, and yet offensive nonetheless. If you didn't have anything fresh to contribute, why didn't you post a comment boasting "First" and at least not leave behind a taste of poisonous hatred of the Democratic Party?

      Now don't bother to flame at me. I'm already burnt out, and I'm leaving. Maybe I can find a different site where the members try to be constructive about issues affecting the Democratic Party. If I can't, so be it. I'm not gonna waste more time here wading through the same-old, same-old day boring and negative comments after day. I'm out.

      •  Great Comment (5+ / 0-)

        I agree with everything you say. The "all politicians are bad" refrain is a hopeless, negative tune meant to end serious discussion on a subject which deserves our consideration.

      •  Excellent Woody (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkInSanFran, Wary

        And please don't leave. Just keep posting what you are. The comment was totally off topic but that happens often here. I don't think it was worth a troll rating but it was off topic.

        The author brings up some very important things about communication and I look forward to adding his book to my library on the subject of communication and how the brain works.

        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

        by talex on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:51:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You go right ahead and think whatever makes (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BlackGriffen, Winnie, rubine

        you happy and comofortable.  However, some of us are more realistic; and we would really like to figure out a way to have more positive influence on them.  If we don't face reality, we can't do that - can we. Selfish?  Who is selfish?   "There are none blinder than those who will not see."  As I said, each to their own.  I'm sure we are all about the same goal.

        ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

        by dkmich on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:56:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Woody if you find (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        talex

        a new, more constructive site to help out the Democratic Party, please let us know.

        I, for one, share your views, I am also tired of wading through the same old same old,

        Thanks for voicing what I have been thinking.

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:27:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What does it mean when questions are the enemy? (7+ / 0-)

        The commenter REJECTS the argument that Democrats are "too stupid/inarticulate".  He thinks Democrats are smart and clever folks.

        He says that THEREFORE we need a better explanation for why the Democrats are so beholden to corporate interests, a better explanation than is provided by the interesting argument presented in the book review.

        How could that even be controversial? Surely we do need a good explanation for that problem, don't we?    

        How do we explain the failure of the party to end the war, impeach the President and move to bring corporate America under democratic rule?  

        As the commenter says, in full support of and belief in the intelligence of Democratic leaders, "they are not stupid" so what is going on?  Is an explanation based on inarticulateness or rhetorical failure adequate to explain their patterns of speech and policy advocacy?

        Why is it that every time someone asks a reasonable question, some folks get their undies in a bunch and proclaim that this is a Democratic party site only, as if the Democratic party isn't a place that includes public discussions of the direction the Democratic party should take?  

        •  good question: (5+ / 0-)

          Why is it that every time someone asks a reasonable question, some folks get their undies in a bunch and proclaim that this is a Democratic party site only, as if the Democratic party isn't a place that includes public discussions of the direction the Democratic party should take?

        •  What comment did you read? (0+ / 0-)

          The "First!" comment on this thread goes like this, as I read it:

          [The author of the book] at least gives Dems the benefit of a doubt, [saying that] they're aren't in cahoots with corporations just like the Republicans [and offering another explanation, paraphrased. but] I don't think that I buy it.

          How is that not totally negative and designed to derail the discussion of the review and hijack the thread for the discussion that you favor along with the "First!" commenter?

          The "First!" comment very strongly implies that the ONLY expanation for the Democrats problems worth discussing is the view held by the author of the comment, and seconded by you, to wit, that the Democrats are involved in a conspiracy with the corporations. So you and dk want us to discuss how hopeless it all is, and ignore the subject of the book reviewed. Is that a closed mind on display? or a selfish one, as I suggested before? or what?

          You say

          we need a better explanation for why the Democrats are so beholden to corporate interests, a better explanation than is provided by the interesting argument presented in the book review

          So there's no point in discussing the book reviewed or its points. Fine. You are completely free to not discuss it. One click and you're outta here. And you and dk are free to post diaries that repeat the tiresomely repetitive line about how it's all the fault of the Democrats in Congress. Don't expect any praise for originality, but obviously there's a large market hereabouts for such recycled sour opinions.

          But you should not try to prevent others here from discussing the points of the book in a thread that is supposed to be about the review. You and dk seem to be the ones afraid of questions, and afraid of discussion of other ideas about our party's problems that are not the same as your predetermined explanation of corporate conspiracy.

          BTW Thanks to those who posted or rec'ed comments in my support, but don't anybody get their hopes up. I'm not coming back to read or post more comments. On reflection I decided that I can read the front page stories on dKos and even some diaries, so long as I don't go to the comments. I won't miss much that way, just the incessant whining about how the Democratic politicians have failed us due to their corrupt involvement in a conspiracy to govern the country with and for the corporations. Oh please. Anyone who believes that bull, go vote for Nader again, why dontcha. Now I have something better to do: my laundry.

          •  On the contrary (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dkmich

            "So there's no point in discussing the book reviewed or its points."

            I think it's a fascinating thesis (from the book), but the first commenter makes an on topic point about the adequacy of an explanation based on rhetorical failure.

            Personally I'd say the thesis of the book seems like a good one, but I think its reasonable to ask if it is a sufficient one.  

            I'd like to read the book.  

            I never voted for Nader, nor do I think I would.

            Why arguments about corruption by the corporate political fund raising system in the U.S. sound to you like "whining" I really can't say... (on a site that is part of the internet small donor phenom, no less !)   but I don't plan to be quiet about it, and you are most welcome.

          •  Woody (0+ / 0-)

            I didn't hijack the thread.  You did.  You are the one who went totally off subject and turned the topic to me and whether or not I deserve to have an opinion that the author's premise is naive.   I did address the book.  Oppose questions.  Just what question did you ask?  All I saw was a temper tantrum that ended with you abusing your ability to troll rate because you don't like Democrats being challenged.  Too bad.  Don't want to come back?  That's up to you.  

            ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

            by dkmich on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:17:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I appreciate dailykos... (9+ / 0-)

        I'm a left winger, anarchist, marginalized, individual, with a past tendency to be very cynical.  In the last year I have immersed myself in law and history, particularly labor history.  I am awed by the strength, brilliance, and integrity, of many on the left who have fought hard for the rights of labor, as well as the rights of women and minorities.

        I believe it is pretty obvious that we, the citizens of the US, have a real problem with the power ($$$) imbalance between the people and the business interests, that has resulted in the profound corruption of our political process.  

        To define how a democrat should behave, or approach an issue, without addressing this imbalance seems to me to be somewhat delusional.  Sometimes the waffling on the part of democrats is simply that they represent special interests while trying to act as if they represent the people.

        DailyKos has provided me with an arena in which I have been able to think and speak through these issues, discarding much of my cynisism in the process.  There is a way to change the democrats and this country for the better by recognizing the actual reactionary forces that are arrayed against us and acting with all this in mind.

        I deeply appreciate the skepticism of DailyKos towards the demos, while still acting to support many of them.  It is a realistic and mature approach, hence, in my opinion, is the most effective.  

    •  "Democrat" is not defined by "not" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Winnie, dkmich

      The essence of being a "Democrat" is being Democratic - believing in Democracy.

      IF we can stick to that theme, we will be impossible to beat.

      Of course it is not enough to speak the words, we have to act and vote as believers in Democracy.  That would seem to be the really hard part.

      An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

      by Thomas Twinnings on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:20:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  WTF do "corporations" have to do with (0+ / 0-)

      the topic of this thread????

      The book describes the past 20 or so years of Dem party candidates using "average numbers" from polls and focus groups in order to figure out their message, instead of speaking from their heart/gut, or speaking about their own values as a person, i.e. what they REALLY think.

      It's about Dems avoidance of making any kind of controversial statement or forming bold ideas out of fear they might lose some votes or offend someone or cause controversy.

      It's about the middle-American voters who see right through their mealy-mouthed wimpy campaign speeches and wishy washy positions and vote for the other side, not because the voter is conservative, but because the GOP candidates seem like they actually have a political philosophy behind their positions.

      It's about how Dems have failed to communicate to Americans what philosophy it is the Dems represent, not just about 'abortion' or 'Iraq' or 'the environment', but any other issue that might come up in the future.

      Americans won't vote for a candidate until they know what makes that candidate tick (or at least think they know)...

      Corporations have nothing to do with it.

      •  You believe this? (0+ / 0-)

        The book describes the past 20 or so years of Dem party candidates using "average numbers" from polls and focus groups in order to figure out their message, instead of speaking from their heart/gut, or speaking about their own values as a person, i.e. what they REALLY think.

         So your theory is that they are stupid and weak, which is not much better than greedy and self-serving.  Either way, they are losers, which is the point.  Aren't you tired of excuses and reasons, yet?  Whine, we're a minority.  Whine, we're only a little majority being held hostage by the new minority.  Enough whining and excuses.  They aren't at 14% in the polls for no reason.  

        ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

        by dkmich on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 10:06:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Buhdydharma and OPOL have been saying this (32+ / 0-)

    ... for internet ages here, and have taken a lot of grief for it.

    Then there was the "Top Comment" about destructive "yippies" on Daily Kos. It named no names, but I took it as meaning passionate, emotional posters as opposed to the professional triangulators.

    The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

    by lotlizard on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:31:27 AM PDT

    •  And Kestrel, as well. (15+ / 0-)

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

      by Karmafish on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:36:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, is that what they were saying? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jxg, buhdydharma

      I never managed to make it past the photo collages.

      John McCain: no health insurance for kids.

      by AlanF on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:45:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dems Weakness Looks Like Codependency (18+ / 0-)

      Someone is abused and they grow up with a sense of anger at injustice, but the first time someone says "Boo" they fold like a house of cards.

      Worse, they internalize every criticism, repeat every criticism, try to explain every criticism. And when they are faced with a sociopath or personality disorder, they are drawn in like the abuser is a black hole. The abuser doesn't need to stalk the codependent, the codependent will practically stalk their abuser. Friends look on absolute horror as the codependent hangs on every word from the abuser and desperately tries to ingratiate themsleves.

      Unfortunately, politicians include a lot of codependents (people pleasers) and personality disorders (predators - often flabby and self deluded, but still predators). Dems tend to be people pleasers and 'pubs tend to be predators, so Democrats tend to act like the Shmoos in "L'il Abner" - they jump in the oven and baste themselves for you.

      •  [name here] (D-Valley of the Schmoon)...? :o) n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bernardpliers

        The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

        by lotlizard on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:30:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not really a big problem (12+ / 0-)

        as the discussion and book implies. If say the D's were to stand up for the Rule of Law and the constitution, that would be sufficient to take care of the visceral types and then they could reason and debate policy positions until we were blue in the face. As long as we had power.

        The problem is , we need to show we stand for something that is easy to grasp via actions , not words and those actions are off the table right now.

        So if the D's lose the election in 08 across the board, we can triangulate, debate , postulate, blame, and even throw a tantrum, but as so many people on this site have pointed out, a very simple solution was within our grasp.

        Wouldas, Shouldas and Couldas are usually the Realists lament after a large an unexpected loss of political or  economic capital occurs through lack of action as they wait for facts to develop to confirm what most people already know.

        In 1980 the Movie "Risky Business" Came out and a great philosophy was born. Sometimes ya just gotta say "What the fuck" and go for it.

        As this point, there really is nothing to lose even though some beleive that the occupation of seats of power actaully give them power. As diary after diary has pointed out, this is simply an illusion.

        So, what do the D's Stand for?  Start it off easy: D's will defend the constitution via the rule of Law.  Then don't talk about it. Do it. What the fuck do we have to lose? Power? Majority Status? Just an Illusion.

        Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

        by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:15:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh Come On! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Woody, Wary, dragoneyes

          The problem is , we need to show we stand for something that is easy to grasp via actions , not words and those actions are off the table right now.

          Like the public does not know what we stand for? Then why when polled on position issues does the public overwhelmingly choose Dems as being capable of doing the better job?

          The difference between you and the general public is they look at the bigger picture while most people here nit-pick every little thing the Dems do therefore you are never happy with them because no Dem can satisfy every individuals desire here. And I highlight 'individuals' because so many here have their pet issue. As long as people use their pet issues as the ultimate measuring stick they will never be happy. But maybe that is what some want - to never be happy with the Party.

          "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

          by talex on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:09:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you probably (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ravenwind, ibonewits

            misplaced the most recent polls either that or your are under the mistaken impression that D's won in 2006 instead of the R's losing.

            Even if they are out polling on any issue it's not anything to get excited about when your over-all polls show the D's in the mid to low 20s.

            That's just the point. You can have the luxury of nuance and debate and all the fine points of governance within a solid majority. But the fact is, people at some point expect action. D's have shown no leadership even on the things that they purportedly stand for through legislative accomplishments.

            But lets assume THAT didn't matter. They didn't do the one thing they were elected to do in 2006. Check the Executive branch's power. They folded like a house of cards and THAT is all people will remember as 100s and 1000s come back from Iraq dead and wounded. Being strong in the face of adversity really does matter. Debate when people's lives aren't at stake. Take Action when people are dying.

            Right now people would imagine the D's during Katrina as debating the ins and outs of various forms of relief days and weeks after the Hurricane. It's not that they don't want to provide relief. They can't come to an agreement on where they stand on how to do it.

            Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

            by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:40:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Woody, tobendaro

              I'd like to see the polls showing the Dems in the low 20's. I haven't seen those polls. And if you are talking about the congressional polls there is more that one party in congress although I assume that you give all the blame to the Dems and none to the Repubs.

              They didn't do the one thing they were elected to do in 2006. Check the Executive branch's power. They folded like a house of cards

              Typical uninformed comment here. I guess you think the Dems were elected and that in the process the Constitution and all the rules of the Senate were thrown out the window? Because that is what it would take to do what you wish. I guess you didn't think about that?

              comments like yours are pretty well worn out around here. Especially because how they are never accompanied by any realistic way to accomplish what it is you are asking. Noting but screed really.

              "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

              by talex on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:38:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hmmm lets see here (0+ / 0-)

                President ignores all those rules and breaks laws consistently. Lets put impeachment under the table.  Dems could have decided against any supplemental bill to sign at all or let him keep vetoing the first one. So many options besides "Oh Ok W, here's your 100 Billion with no strings and we got our minimum wage so our constituents can keep buying gas. "

                Is that what you meant when you say

                I guess you think the Dems were elected and that in the process the Constitution and all the rules of the Senate were thrown out the window? Because that is what it would take to do what you wish. I guess you didn't think about that?

                comments like yours are pretty well worn out around here. Especially because how they are never accompanied by any realistic way to accomplish what it is you are asking. Noting but screed really.

                Standing up to a Bully is just The Right thing To Do. I guess you didn't think much about that did you. Or was the idea too scary? Boo!

                Poll ratings?
                http://www.pollingreport.com/...
                I suppose you could twist that and say the R's are dragging the averages down
                So what else do we have here?
                Ok D Job Ratings at 34 but wait...damnit. The R ratings are at 36 in Congress. Imagine that? Strange then that they collective are rating 10 points lower. But you know how those polls are.

                Biased right?

                Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

                by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 03:05:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Almost forgot (0+ / 0-)

                Typical uninformed comment here.

                Indeed you are right about your comment. On that we can agree.

                Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

                by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 03:06:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  You're confusing (0+ / 0-)

            the positions people advocate according to polls with support for Democrats.  If people do not make the connection that these positions are Democratic positions, then something is clearly going astray in how Democrats campaign and present themselves to the public.

        •  Actions must follow Words (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rebecca, Dburn, ravenwind, pioneer111

          When expected actions do not follow the words, voters get confused.  Who can blame them ?

          Liberty and Justice are sacred ideals, but seemingly difficult to live up to.  Witness the Repugnants virtual abandonment of these democratic domains.

          Democracy is both simple and difficult.  It is usually the poor, downtrodden, outcaste who are the case examples of those most in need of democratic principles in action- but it takes real courage to defend these people - and there is no money in it. (witness Jose Padilla, abandon even by the ACLU).

          Most of us know what our ideals are.  But many of us are afraid to speak, let alone act upon them.  Yes, we need a simple and consistant theme.  AND we need a common committment not to drop those ideals at the hint of some cash (I advocate "shunning" those who do).  We must constantly reinforce the message that we are the Party "under the Law, for the Citizen", or we will not Win - nor deserve to.

          An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

          by Thomas Twinnings on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:18:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks- To use an old Cowboy movie analogy (0+ / 0-)

            It seems so simple to me. Who are the guys in the white hats? That's pretty much what it comes down to.

            The Polls show the Americans are on to the R's game. What they want to see happen , did they vote the right sheriff to come in and clean up or is he hiding under the table as the guys in Black hats drunk on power, shoot up the town and steal all the gold.

            If that's perceived as a single issue voter classification - right vs wrong, then we really do have the wrong people in there. Doing right encompasses so many things that D's can wrap themselves in that and be many things to many people.

            But first they have to show some backbone. That means a high profile struggle with the bully. They can't hide beneath position papers and polling results and mealy mouth excuses. Doing the Right Thing may seem like doing the Hardest thing but when it over and done with, the D's may just find it turned out to be the easiest thing.

            Then when the constitution is safe. When Our liberties are safe. Then we can argue the finer points about what it means to be a progressive and what policy positions that entails. But until the big fight happens, nothing is moving.

            Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

            by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:49:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The Constitution Takes Out All The Guess Work (5+ / 0-)

          But the Democrats refuse to talk about the Constitution.

          I guess they are afrid if has too many controversial ideas.

          •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

            The road map is right there but it's hard to find your way when it's underneath the table. Putting impeachment under the table is the same as putting the constitution - the road map and guidelines down there with it.

            The hardest thing for these Pols is to admit when they are wrong. But strangely enough, the American people will think more of them especially when they follow up the admission with action to correct the problem.

            The problem here is people are making something that is really very simple waaay too complicated  as a knee jerk reaction to taking action. If something is too complicated to understand, nothing should be done until the facts are more clear.

            How many million emails destroyed can possibly make it more clear?

            Support Col Hackworth's because tomorrow is just a promise, not a guarantee

            by Dburn on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:54:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And I think... (8+ / 0-)

      ....that's why Obama doesn't get a lot of love here. Obama understands the importance of an emotional connection to a candidate. But a lot of us here are suspicious of him because we don't think his resume is long enough or that he doesn't give enough specific facts. The simple fact is that there's no question that Obama's bright enough for the job and can come up with details. And I don't believe his focus on making an emotional connection means that he can't give details.

      •  Some perhaps, for others... (6+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rebecca, delphine, pat208, JanL, ibonewits, offgrid

        Personally, I think Obama has plenty of experience needed to be POTUS. The reason I haven't jumped on board is because of his consistent strategy of playing it safe. When it comes to casting votes and taking the lead on national issues, he has yet to stick his neck out. I'll be much happier with him when I see his rhetoric and his actions come into alignment.

        What's wrong with America and what will you do to change it?

        by Ashami on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:07:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama is not an emoter.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rebecca

        As numerous articles have described, he frequently fails to make the emotional connection and stays at a policy level when confronted with "real people/ real situations".  Details are what he can do, and does do, in a very coherent and impressive way.   But like Hillary, he's kind of people impaired.  

      •  Or, maybe he just makes the wrong emotional (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rebecca

        connection for some people.

        I am suspicious of Obama not because of the length of his resume, or because of specific facts or lack thereof.  

        I am suspicious of Obama because of his cowtowing to religion and the supposed force of religion for social change.  Note that as distinct from "morality" of certain choices or not.

        To me, this is not what a Presidential candidate ought to be doing, at least not to the extent that some people do it.

        It's what a priest or a reverend might do, wholly legitimately, but after 6 years I'm damned tired of the spinning of the office of the President as "religious daddy of the nation" -- or even, "religious mommy".  Or even "moral" daddy/mommy of the nation.

        And yes, other people do it too, and yes, the extent to which they do it is a matter of perception.

        I have no problem with people running for office letting it be known they believe in God.  Ironically, unlike many religious people, I have no specific religious litmus test for people seeking the Presidency.

        But dad gummit, in the end I am voting for someone who I think can run the country, with justice and fairness and correct application of the law, not for someone who can tell me how bad it is that some people just don't have that old time religion down the correct way.

        The opposite of war is not peace, it's creation - Jonathan Larson (-6.62, -6.26)

        by AndyS In Colorado on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  sometimes (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Robespierrette, Wary

      OPOL beats you over the head with his message and uses harsh imagery, this appeals to people who already think like he does but does very little to sway a person who might agree with him on quite a few things but gets turned off by his hammer. What you need to think about is a story, a narrative, something that the public will nod their heads to while you are telling it, not something that makes them cringe, or turns them off.
      Sometimes OPOL pulls this off, and other times he is just too harsh.

      I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

      by jbou on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:36:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Harsh=often a danger when passion is involved.n/t (0+ / 0-)

        The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

        by lotlizard on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:45:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  true (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Wary

          But if you want to communicate with the masses and not turn them off you might want to cool your passions, it will make you more effective.

          I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

          by jbou on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:49:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Lots of room for improving the balance, true. n/t (0+ / 0-)

            The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

            by lotlizard on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:13:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Launching any new idea or initiative (8+ / 0-)

            requires the appeal to the mythic non-linearaspect of the human mind, that is, it captuires the imagination.  Once the imagination is captured, it is easy enough to fill in the blank with facts and figures and statistics.  But rarely is the imagination captured in the first place with fact s and figures and statistics, and it is IMHO the best purpose of a place like dailykos to be the incubator of new ideas, new initiatives, not merely a rehearsal space for existing lines of argument.

            A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

            by ActivistGuy on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:36:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Cool our passions? (4+ / 0-)

            I think that the point of the book is that the democrats need to develop passion and not cool their already non-existent passions.  

            Showing anger in the face of an historic assault on our government, traditions and freedoms is a normal reaction.  The Spocklike rationality being pushed by our political leaders and some here is not a winning approach.  It's funny though how anger is, it appears, an appropriate response to the base that expects our elected officials to do more then keep their powder dry for the perfect moment in time.  

            ...that cannot be a wise contrivance which in its operation may commit the government of a nation to the wisdom of an idiot. Thomas Paine Rights of Man

            by Rebecca on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:18:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I love the passionate (0+ / 0-)

              also, but I remember what the rethugs did to Dean when he showed the passion that he possesses. There is more to it than just passion, we need to be able to get out front of the rethugs when they attack through their media outlets.

              Dubya has done for America what Scar did for the Pridelands. Check out John McCain

              by rsie on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:30:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes they attacked him for getting angry (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                ibonewits, offgrid, Rabid Lambert

                Of course they did.  The republicans understand the power of passion and the last thing they want is for our side to start showing an appropriate response to their attacks on our system of government.  They have shown they will attack no matter what we do so why should our side let them scare us off from effective means of communicating our message because they will attack us for it?  

                Look at John Kerry.  He was the electable candidate we were told because he had the military record the repubs couldn't refute.  Well look how well that worked out.  They attacked him and his record and he didn't fight back until much too late and with too little sign of outrage and anger.  His reputation was being attacked and where was his outrage, his anger?  People expect a certain emotional response to things.  When our politicians don't show that response they just don't seem real.  

                We need to stop allowing the republicans to control the terms of debate in this country.  We don't do that by being afraid of them and their response.

                ...that cannot be a wise contrivance which in its operation may commit the government of a nation to the wisdom of an idiot. Thomas Paine Rights of Man

                by Rebecca on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:48:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Gee, when I started reading and came (8+ / 0-)

    to the part about a pyschopath I immediately thought of the current occupant of the White House, silly me.

    One bad thing was a train got crashed in New Jersey. People won't be late for work though, because the governor lady said, "I'm sending in more trains!"

    by msstaley on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:31:50 AM PDT

  •  Must read book, and thank you I mostly agree with (12+ / 0-)

    This

    the left has no brand, no counterbrand, no master narrative, no counternarrative. It has no shared terms or "talking points" for its leaders to repeat until they are part of our political lexicon. Instead, every Democrat who runs for office, every Democrat who offers commentaries on television or radio, every Democrat who even talks with friends at the water cooler, has to reinvent what it means to be a Democrat, using his or her own words and concepts, as if the party had no history

    Many here have decried this lack of "pack mentality" when it come to attacking the rightwing idiocy.

    The other point is staking out BOLD positions
    The war for instance. Defund the damn thing.
    Bushco lies: Condemn and impeach his ass. Telling me Impeachment is off the table is foolish to the extreme. Removing options off the table is mega idiocy.

    •  I Disagree (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Wary

      that we have no brand. people generally know what we stand for it is that it is just not easy to define in a few words. the Repubs on the other hand don't stand for much there fore it is easy for them to brand themselves.

      Some day when I have some more time I'd like to address the differences in personality types that affect how Dems communicate. Maybe that is covered in the book maybe not. But there is a clear distinction in personality types that draw people to either party as politicians.

      As for you comment:

      Defund the damn thing.

      Just how are you going to do that? it's not doable if you think it out.

      "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

      by talex on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:14:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Defund the damn thing" (0+ / 0-)

      Yeah, right, and since they can't do it, then forget the dems?

      And this one:

      Bushco lies: Condemn and impeach his ass.

      Yeah? How, just how? Ya got the votes to do it?

      I don't know about anyone else, but the so called 'pack mentality' of the Bush supporters is leaving them extremely stupid and vulnerable--it's sooo easy to attack and expose their stupid one liners for what they are, NOTHING but hollow jingoes............

      Ah, I better leave now and go somewhere I can make a difference, it's surely not here with so many wanting to be like the Republics........

      "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

      by Wary on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:48:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obviously you miss my point but thats Ok (0+ / 0-)

        Uniformity of message, talking point 'discipline' is very helpful in 'branding'

        If Dem message is universal health care what the fuck does that mean? Dems are just knotting themselves in grandiose flowery obtuse complex languange.

        Say it loud and clear.
        :SINGLE PAYER HEALTH SYSTEM LIKE e.g MEDICARE, every one has a card and goes to whatever hosp. nO BANKURPTCY no difficult choices etc.

        Why is it that the rethug positions are very clear and equally emotive too?
        E.g
        School vouchers?
        Even a moron know what that means.
        What Dems answer? " Oh we can pull funds from public schools" But the fucking schools are failing!! So continue to fund failure?

        See what I mean?

        Dont to be too clever twice!
        You might be alone on that "island" of "Cleverness".

        As for impeachment, why NOT introduce a bill? let chimpie play some defense. He might escape so what? But to let him go scott free is an abomination.

  •  Excellent Diary (22+ / 0-)

    We seem to consistently lack the narrative hook, the personal story, that makes our passions seem vivid and real.  Bill Clinton was good at this.  Ronald Reagan was a master at this.  JFK did it.  Even loathsome Nixon did it.  I'm not sure if any of the current candidates are doing it.  Al Gore is certainly doing it -- and showed in the closing weeks of the 2000 campaign how effectively he can do it.

    Of course, one other problem is that the MSM is only interested in the right-wing, religio-fascist narrative and hoots loudly and relentlessly in derision at the narrative of the left.  

    So there are two problems...building the progressive narrative and then actually getting the story heard over the relentless drumbeat of right-wing propaganda.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -- Arthur C. Clarke

    by mathGuyNTulsa on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:35:49 AM PDT

    •  Some of what you write confuses me (7+ / 0-)

      I don't remember anything about Gore in the closing weeks of the 2000 campaign.  It certainly wasn't very effective, whatever he did.  Not exactly something to put on your resume - "I barely beat the stupidest presidential candidate in history."

      As for Clinton, he spoke well, but his narrative masked policies that were basically the policies of moderate Republicans.  Hearing kossacks constantly praise Clinton is really depressing, as his policies, especially regarding the economy, were pretty much identical to Dole's, with some minor variation.

      You are very right about battling the right-wing propaganda.  That's a tough one - how do you press the issue of health care when Wolf, Matthews, et al, care more about your manliness or your haircut?

      "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

      by matthewc on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:41:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Gore (21+ / 0-)

        In the final weeks of the campaign he gave impassioned speeches -- so much so that he became hoarse. The final weeks of the campaign were quite different from what went before. And please -- he won the election by over a million votes.  It was stolen by God's Own Party's supreme court and chicanery in Florida.

        What I said about Clinton was that he was good at building a narrative people identified with -- not that he translated that narrative into progressive policies. In general he did not.  The point was that politicians who win national races -- Reagan, Clinton, Nixon and, yes Gore -- are passionate and capable of building narratives that people identify with.

        Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -- Arthur C. Clarke

        by mathGuyNTulsa on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:46:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed, but a question... (0+ / 0-)

          was it a million? I thought it was 500K+

          •  I think you may be right (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rebecca, ibonewits

            The initial margin was about one million.  As I recall, God's Own Party then initiated recounts in several states that Gore won, reducing his margin (more trickery?).  No recounts were done -- including Florida! -- in the states that Bush won.  Hence the official margin of Gore's victory was reduced.  Given where the recounts were actually done, the ori