Daily Kos

Israeli news roundup-Meltdown or opportunity? Peres helps Hamas?

Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:11:37 PM PDT

There is still a free press in Israel:

Let Gaza live

Here is a success story: Israel and the West imposed a boycott on the Palestinian Authority with the aim of weakening Hamas, and a year and a half later this brilliant policy has yielded its fruits: Hamas has become stronger. If there is a lesson from the fiasco in Gaza, here it is: Starving, drying up and blocking aid do not sear the consciousness and do not weaken political movements. On the contrary.

40 years of failed policies?

Reality has refuted the chorus of experts and commentators who preached in behalf of the boycott policy. This daft notion that it is possible to topple an elected government by applying pressure on a helpless population suffered a complete failure. The world boycotted the unity government, which could perhaps have prevented the harsh scenes in Gaza if it had been allowed to rule, and consequently we received the alternative: the complete takeover of Gaza by Hamas in a military coup, tearing Gaza away from the West Bank. This is bad news.

It is possible to make a list of the fateful mistakes committed by Israel, the U.S. and Fatah, which led to what has happened, but the question now facing us is where to go from here.
http://www.haaretz.com/...

And of course, Israel is NEVER willing to document "final statis", why?:

Olmert rejects U.S. proposal for final status 'shelf agreement'

Olmert is strongly opposed to the idea. He believes that any settlement reached should be implemented, and fears a situation in which Israel approves the agreement, but Abbas fails to sell it to the Palestinian public. In that event, Israel might be pressured to make further concessions to make Abbas' task easier.
http://www.haaretz.com/...

Here we go....

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, however, sought to play down expectations ahead of the summit. "We have an interest in having this meeting, but I don't want anyone to think we're on the brink of a dramatic breakthrough," Olmert told his Cabinet, according to a meeting participant.
http://www.haaretz.com/...

Sharm summits have never been implimented before and now we see why.

Meanwhile:
Haniyeh: Sharm summit won't yield results, 'resistance' is only way

Deposed Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas on Sunday rejected a summit set to take place Monday in Egypt with Israeli and Arab leaders, saying only resistance would produce results for his people.

Speaking in Gaza, which his movement overran earlier this month, defeating the forces allied with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, Haniyeh said, "the Americans won't give anything. Israel won't give us anything. Our land, our nation will not come back to us except with steadfastness and resistance," a code word for attacks against Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/...

Even thought the UN Securty Council won't approve funding for Abbas, Ban might have other plans, he might be a Bush man:

Ban has not yet delved deeply into Middle Eastern diplomacy, limiting himself to issuing statements and making largely ceremonial visits to the region. But he has quietly rejected advice from key U.N. insiders that he distance the world body from the Bush administration, and earlier this year — with strong backing from Washington — he pushed out his point man on Israeli-Palestinian affairs.

Ban’s record to date on the Middle East has received a fairly positive reception from Jewish organizations. The Anti-Defamation League recently criticized the secretary general’s statement on the anniversary of the Six Day War, because of its focus on Palestinian suffering. But he was well received by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and he avoided a likely dust-up with the Jewish community by declining to attend the funeral of his controversial predecessor, Kurt Waldheim, who passed away last week.

and out going de Soto:

A "tendency toward self-censorship — treating Israel with exquisite consideration, almost tenderness — exists at the U.N.," de Soto wrote. This is "partly for our own reasons: the legacy of the Zionism equals racism resolution and the resulting political and budgetary cost for the U.N., and Israel’s demonstrated capacity to undermine U.S.-U.N. relations. The Israeli mission to the U.N., in my experience, has unparalleled access in the secretariat, even at the highest levels."
http://www.forward.com/...

ADL's new talking points:

Israel protests Iran's rights record

"The international community cannot be silent in situations where the violation of human rights is systemic, grave, and widespread, and where states dismiss issues of human rights and refuse to engage in meaningful dialogue," Israel's deputy UN ambassador Daniel Carmon said Friday.

Israel's UN Mission released excerpts from the letters to Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and General Assembly President Sheikha Haya Rashed Al Khalifa.

It cited Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust and his calls for Israel's destruction while developing "an ominous military nuclear weapons program."
http://www.jpost.com/...

Even though Hamas is calling for a qussam ceasefire, the bombings continue:

Israel Air Force aircraft targeted a car in Gaza City on Sunday evening, the military said, killing an Islamic Jihad militant and wounding two people.

This is the first IAF strike on Gaza militants since the Islamic Hamas seized control in Gaza earlier this month.
http://www.haaretz.com/...

Free press in UK, too, Dalan not welcomed back to Gaza, but:

Hamas war chief reveals his plans for Gaza peace

'We have a lot of clan violence in Gaza and we are working to stop families from fighting each other over past things,' he said. 'But we also are working very hard for the release of Alan Johnston, the BBC journalist.'

Johnston, who has been held for more than 100 days by a group known as 'the Army of Islam', finds himself caught in a sticky situation. The group is made up of members of the Dogmosh family, which has a long-running blood feud with Hamas. Executive Force and Qassam fighters surround the section of town controlled by the family and negotiations continue. But Abu Obieda said the BBC limited his options. 'I can have Alan Johnston out in two hours, if my men go in and take him by force,' he says. 'But several times, the BBC has called me and asked that I not attack and let the talks continue. So we will negotiate because we want no harm to come to this man.'

The other major issue is resistance to Israel. Hamas has asked all militant groups to halt rocket attacks into Israel for now, with some success.

snip
Abu Obieda said he was personally negotiating with Islamic Jihad, a militant group that fires the most rockets. And, typically, he eschews both inter-Palestinian violence and ceasefires with Israel. 'We all understand that we need to wait until provoked. Maybe one week, maybe one month, but they will come and provoke us. But for now, we need to fix the economy, provide the security for the people of Gaza and the foreigners who want to come here, and fix the problems with the families. We can't do anything before we do that.'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/...

It would be great to prove him wrong:

He warned the Arab world not to get caught up in the Israel-Palestinian summit "trap", saying "this is like sprinkling sand in our eyes.

"The Israelis and the Americans won't give us anything. Our land and our rights will not be returned to us through these summits. We will only get our rights back through resistance," he said.
http://www.ynetnews.com/...

UPDATE
Peres:
http://www.jpost.com/...

Tags: israel, hamas (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 119 comments

  •  The new game (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Eiron

    I think this is how the new post Hamas Gaza take over will play.

    1. Gaza will be a defacto independent political entity. Abbas doesn't have power to exert control in Gaza. So he has to deal with Hamas. So far Abbas shows no capability to do real policy. He is all talk.
    1. How hamas can sustain itself in Gaza.
    1. Abbas immediate problem : maintaining Fatah from splintering. Try not to get killed. And he is pretty old. He won't be in charge 5-6 years from now. He'll be practically a senile. The clock is definitely ticking harder on Abbas side than Hamas side.
    1. Israel. So far Israel trick is "begging in DC", a couple F-16 bomb dropping fly over, and tank shelling. No direct invasion yet.

    It'll be interesting how the whole thing will play out in the next 2-4 weeks.

    Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

    by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:23:54 PM PDT

    •  And remember Iran... (0+ / 0-)

      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

      by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:26:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is very objectionable. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TLS66, MBNYC, Doodad

      Come on, he'll be senile in 5-6 years?

      How the fuck old are you?  14?

      People have been able to function well into their 80s and 90s.  I'd take a seventy-years old man with his wits about him more than the youngsters with no experience in the world, and no intelligence worth mentioning.

      •  72 (0+ / 0-)

        Abbas is friggin 72 already. How old you think he will live? 120? 500 years old?

        78 yrs is pretty senile don't you think in area where everybody is shooting at each other? Can he duck without getting a heart attack?

        Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

        by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:29:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, so what? (0+ / 0-)

          I know his age- unlike with you, two years isn't a big difference.  Two years ago you were still in grade school...

          You're a fucking bigot; ageism is just as bad as racism- in fact I'd even say it is worse, because it shows a deep disrespect for all of humanity.

          •  okay so 72 years young (0+ / 0-)

            .. and he is definitely slugging it with the whipper snapper like hamas. How fast can he run the hall when Israel starts dropping those bomb when they are not happy with Abbas two months from now? How about if Fatah faction start shooting at each other?

            reality is a bitch right?

            How young is Sharon? oh wait, he was gone before hitting 80.

            Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

            by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:11:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "You're a f***ing bigot"? (0+ / 0-)

            Considering that Reagan had Alzheimers in office, this American at least is nervous about anyone being in office until the age of 80 or so.  That's one problem I had with the McCain candidacy to begin with -- before the obvious policy issues began showing up.

            If Abbas were 50 years old, I would consider it ageism.  But 72 years old is old enough that it is questionable whether someone would be capable of holding out for five more years in an elected office.

            •  So are you. (0+ / 0-)

              I've had friends that died in their early fourties, either cancer or heart disease.

              Leadership isn't about physical strength, it's about understanding how to motivate people to do what you what.  Despite Alzheimers Reagan was able to get people motivated up to the end, and that's how leaders lead.  It isn't a 100-meter dash!

              •  "Despite Alzheimers --" (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Rusty Pipes

                If all that was required was a figurehead, I wouldn't object.  But Reagan wasn't just a figurehead.  He was a man with access to the US's nuclear arsenal, the US's military, and with control over the budget and agenda of the US government.

                It doesn't matter how inspirational Reagan was.  What matters is what he did to this country -- and what he could have done to this country.

                •  There are safeguards (0+ / 0-)

                  Don't overstate the capabilities of the president, he can't launch a nuclear attack just because he's got a bug up his ass.  And he doesn't control the budget, congress does.

                  You've demonstrated significant lack of understanding, as to the workings of the US government.

  •  Holy smoke!! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Florida Democrat, blueness, lemming22

    "If there are jobs for two-and-a-half million Palestinians, we'll see a different West Bank," said President-elect Shimon Peres in his first public speech since his election on Sunday, as he called for Israel to economically assist the Palestinians.

    He also noted that Jordan would be an important partner in the economic development of the region.

    Speaking to the opening of the Jewish Agency Assembly on Sunday morning, Peres also spoke of Hamas's demands for recognition.

    "If Hamas takes care of their children, we'll help them. If they shoot at our children, we'll stop them in every possible way," he announced to the audience of representatives from around the Jewish world. "They must understand that the choice is in their hands - you can't shoot and expect to be respected."
    http://www.jpost.com/...

    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

    by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:32:01 PM PDT

    •  chuckle (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mattes

      that's pretty funny, considering Israel is banning any sort of import and export out of Palestine port.

      What job exactly will Palestinian do that won't get blown up by Israel? Hilarious.

      Farming? see below. (on top of controling Palestinian movement between population in and out of any population center.)

      http://www.poica.org/...

      The Municipality of Jerusalem demolished 3 houses in April 2006 in the villages of Al Issawiya and Al Zayyem under the pretext that they were built without the proper permits. Moreover, occupation authorities demolished and destroyed a number of farms and other structures in Al Zayyem. The Land Research Center (LRC) as documented the following violations in occupied Jerusalem during the month of April 2006:

      Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

      by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:45:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  More fom Hamas on the Israel-Palestinian summit (9+ / 0-)

    It is repeatedly asserted in these I/P diaries that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel. Then along comes this ...

    Haniyeh tried to draw attention away from the Fatah-Hamas conflict, saying repeatedly that the real problem facing the Palestinians is Israeli occupation. "Our battle is with the occupation that has been here for more than 60 years," he said.

    Underlining the Hamas rejection of the existence of Israel, Haniyeh addressed his remarks to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and the "1948 lands," a reference to Israel, created in that year.

    •  Jordan and Egypt? (0+ / 0-)

      He also said he wants a state on 1967 borders.

      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

      by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:59:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For starters (6+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dvo, TLS66, MBNYC, Emet, Dcoronata, zemblan

        As he has stated, repeatedly, all of Israel is occupied land. And yes they would accept a state on the 1967 borders, but it would not be accompanied with recognition, final status peace or an end of its desire to eliminate Israel.

        •  Could you find a link for that last (0+ / 0-)

          part. I have not seen it.

          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

          by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:11:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is the basic Hamas policy (4+ / 0-)

            sounds funny. But if looked at from a realistic, vice idealistic perspective, it should looked at, not scorned.

            Hamas has been doing its best to thread a needle, without always accomplishing its goal.

            First, it doesn't have the luxory of a stable base. The Palestinians in Gaza are not exactly impressed with any institution on the planet. Arab leaders, the UN, 'Democracy', have all left them in camps, in squalor.

            Second, how do move this group into 'society' while Israel is taking land, America is spending millions to corrupt the leaders, and Egypt and Jordan are doing their most to keep them from being a problem.

            While people talk down about the Palestinians, who has a plan that will bring them out of their camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. We see today, as has been the case for decades, that Lebanon has political problems due to the mere presence of the camps.

            Why is it up to Hamas to come up with a perfect policy to counter a massive screw up of the UN in the '40s? I haven't seen any serious proposal to fix the situation by any of the deskchair pundits. Simple slogans don't fix complex political situations like exist in Lebanon and Jordan.

            So given all the background, and lack of any institution working on a serious resolution of the crisis (The peace process has no clothes), Hamas (Israel, normal Palestinians) does not have life easy.

            Of course, it would be easy to pull a Keith Moon and make fun of them, but since that is what most Americans and Europeans did to the Jews in the '40s, that kind of turns my stomach.

            •  jesus (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              leftynyc, Doodad, Dcoronata

              you're a moron mick....

              stupid and dull is a deathly combination.

              I'm not making fun of them, I'm straight up calling Hamas a bunch of radical Islamic crazy assed mudering thugs bent on Palestinian domination, and a further domination of all of Palestine (Israel).... then the world.

              whose flag did they raise in Gaza? their own.

              btw Fatah sucks too, but they at least recognize Israel and there are murmerings of reform within the party. and they're mostly secular, always a good thing

              also a big major, all encompassing Fuck You for comparing Jews in the 40's to Hamas.

              you're a psychotic dipshit

              you've always liked those religious radicals, you used to lie and shill for Hezbollah on this board in many of my diaries.

              much the fuck later man, you've given me the fuckin creeps that there're brains out there with the chemical make up of yours. it's a bad horror movie featuring mick the fuckin clueless T

              Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

              by Keith Moon on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:21:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hangover? (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                pletzs, livosh1, lemming22

                Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:23:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I love your intelligent arguments (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                lemming22

                You sit in the states and and use limited information to understand why these people hold the position they do.

                I'm not religious. But how much more corrupting is religion than greed in politics? Our greed as killed and desire for oil has killed far more than the evil 'Hizballah' and 'Hamas'.

                Why do you not see that these people have an argument? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean is doesn't exist. Hizballah exists because of multiple factors. Israeli occupation is only one of them. France's desire to have Christians run the country, despite being a minority is a major issue with them. As is having Saudi Arabia run media to support another minority, the Sunnis. Ignoring the factors, and attacking them, has only made what was and insignifact movement a major forces.

                Name me one major newspaper that even mentions that Saudis own most of the media, France has strong ties with the Christian, and we have enormous say in the economic policy of Lebanon. Instead, all we see is 'Syria is influencing sovereign Lebanon'. Of course they do. They are next door. Why are we writing their economic policy? Don't see Bush bitching about that?

                Keep up the name-calling shallow arguments. It helps them to no end.

                And until you come up with a solution of how all these groups, who have been screwed over for decades, can live a realistic life (Hi honey, I'm home from work), which I've not seen from you, then I really see you as nothing but a racist.

              •  This Personal Attack was Uprated? (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                mattes, Rusty Pipes, howardx, lemming22

                Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

                I wonder What Hunter will think about it?

                "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

                by npbeachfun on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:30:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  i assume the upraters.... (0+ / 0-)

                of keith's post are fine with personal attacks on them and with other people uprating the personal attacks.

                Rod Torkelson's Armada Featuring Herman Menderchuk

                by howardx on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 07:52:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Supporting a terrorist group now? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              arielle, Emet

              look, you've already proven ignorance with your Mubarak ideas.  Seems they've got no place at the table, which makes them the winners in your ideology.

              But the "massive screw up" wasn't the UN, it was the Arab nations that refused to accept that they could have a Jewish presence in 1% of the total landmass of the region.  Seems what they couldn't do with their collaboration with the Nazis they tried and failed to do with direct action in 1948, and again in '67 and '73.

              They won't win now either.

              •  My (0+ / 0-)

                yet another conspiracy theorists.

                A mostly agrarian society, with little major social structure was working with the Nazis to kill all the Jews.

                Cute.

                Got any other neat little conspiracy theories?

                And at the same time you are telling me this agrarian society, with no national organization, had an anti-Jewish organization in cahoots with Nazis. Because of course, after taking olives off the trees, the next course of action was plot to kill Jews. For that is what Arabs do.

                (Of course it wasn't until Arafat that these peoples had any kind of cohesion probably has nothing to do with your conspiracy theory...)

                •  Some Arab leaders had close ties to Nazis (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Doughnutman, blueness

                  It isn't a conspiracy, it is proven facts.  Just because they weren't totally united didn't mean it didn't happen.

                  The best example of this was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.

                  In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee.

                  According to documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, the Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini's efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann actually visited Palestine and met with al-Husseini at that time and subsequently maintained regular contact with him later in Berlin.

                  In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right:

                     * ... to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy.

                  While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

                  At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:

                     * The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.

                  With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.

                  Source

                  "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                  by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:05:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, I'm not denying that (1+ / 1-)

                    Recommended by:
                    mattes
                    Hidden by:
                    Dcoronata

                    But what about this:

                    Bomber bases

                    Operating from bases in Egypt and Palestine, 9th Air Force B-24s flew countless missions in the summer of 1942 over the central and eastern Mediterranean in defense of Egypt.

                    So some people you dig up voice support. US bombers from from Palestine were blowing the fuck out of Nazis.

                    Next.

                    •  That is a British base not Palestinan or Arab (4+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      blueness, Eric S, Dcoronata, zemblan

                      I don't exactly understand your point.  The local population didn't have any control over those bases.  They were run by the British because the British controlled the British Mandate for Palestine.  The local population couldn't have gotten rid of the bases if they wanted to.

                      I provided a local leader with direct ties to the Nazis and all you did was say the British had air bases there.  Well Duh, the British were given control of the area.  It proves nothing.

                      "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                      by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:43:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  exactly (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        mattes, Rusty Pipes

                        the people had no control. No social structure for themselves.

                        That is what I said above. Because someone can quote some individual does not mean 'the Palestineans' were working with the Nazis to kill Jews.

                        That is a racist position.

                        If they felt that strongly about supporting Nazis to kill Jews, don't you think the base would have been kind of some kind of target?

                        Or maybe some people like to make more of a few individual statements than reality supports.

                    •  It seems clear you were denying it (0+ / 0-)

                      "And at the same time you are telling me this agrarian society, with no national organization, had an anti-Jewish organization in cahoots with Nazis."

                      You're a liar, dude.

                      Those bombers were British- what the fuck do you expect, the British forces not to be in support of their own nation>

                    •  Explanation (0+ / 0-)

                      Your earlier post showed significant ignorance, which wasn't TR'able.

                      But you seem to have denied all correlation with Arab groups and Nazis, and that's a proven fact that you should have known about before opening your mouth.

                      Then you compound the sin by this post- how the fuck can you sleep, you've formed your opinions out of total ignorance: didn't you know that Palestine was an English protectorate (a.k.a, "mandate") from ~1918 - 1948?

                      That "next" shows an arrogance and a failure to comprehend.

                  •  that mufti was a bad dude alright (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    mattes, Rusty Pipes

                    but was he as bad a these guys?

                    "In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations."
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    jews offering to work with nazis while their fellow jews were being rounded up and sent to camps.

                    for the record this will be posted everytime the mufti gets mentioned.

                    Rod Torkelson's Armada Featuring Herman Menderchuk

                    by howardx on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 07:57:50 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Better yet (0+ / 0-)

            find a link, with a definitive quote, where they state that not to be the case. The quote I have already provided backs up everything I just stated.

          •  You should've read the news yesterday then (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            arielle

            That was the first thing I saw, thought about diarying it.

            In the same piece, Hamas demands their aid money on the one hand and refuses to attend the regional peace conference on the other hand.

            You're really backing the good guys here, I hope you're proud of yourself.

    •  And "resistance' is only way" (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MBNYC, Dcoronata, zemblan, bobisbob

      sure doesn't have seemed to have worked all these years has it? Yet Hamas wants to keep on doing it.

      Ironic that the eventual "settlement," will likely always be far less than the Arabs would have got had the accepted the 1948 partition.

      A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

      by Doodad on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:37:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the 1948 partition (0+ / 0-)

        man bet they'd like that as a do over.  unless of course you're still on the destroy israel railroad.

        •  Or Greater Israel meme. (0+ / 0-)

          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

          by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:40:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  like the hamas charter? (0+ / 0-)

            how big is israel suppose to get in that one?

            •  Or like the Likud charter,,,, (0+ / 0-)

              Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

              by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:50:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I didn't know we were exchanging polemics (0+ / 0-)

                my question marks were intentional.

                =]

              •  Likud is nothing like Hamas (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                blueness, zemblan

                For example in 1979 Likud Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, signed the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar al-Sadat, which returned the Sinai Peninsula.

                What exactly did Hamas do that is comparable to that?

                "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:08:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We are talking charter. Likud wants to (0+ / 0-)

                  eliminate Palestine.

                  Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                  by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:14:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It cannot (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    MBNYC, blueness

                    Palestine does not exist (as a state), which makes it difficult to eliminate.

                  •  Action speaks louder then Charters (0+ / 0-)

                    Unfortantly Hamas's actions have reinforced their charter while the Likud has shown a willingness to negotiate.  The Likud isn't perfect but Hamas is a terrorist organization.  There is no way to compare the two.

                    "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                    by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:36:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If actions are more important than Charters.. (0+ / 0-)

                      I wish the I-proponents quit siting Hamas charter.

                      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                      by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:42:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Execpt Hamas actions are inline with the charter (0+ / 0-)

                        Like I said before Likud has shown a willingness to compromise where as Hamas has stuck by it's charter not willing to move one inch.  Actions are louder then charters but Hamas's actions are in lockstep with theirs.

                        "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                        by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:47:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Hamas wants a ceasefire. (0+ / 0-)

                          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                          by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:50:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Exactly, and not a peace (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            arielle

                            What Hamas wants is a situation that would allow them to resume attacks, they aren't interested in peace. They also refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist.

                            "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                            by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:53:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Likud refuses Palestine's right to exist so they (0+ / 0-)

                              cancel out.

                              How do you know the Hamas leadership is not ready for peace. It's always been Israel that refuses to put anything on paper.

                              Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                              by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:58:49 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  You are kidding, right? (0+ / 0-)

                                How do we know? Well, lets just check for a quote in this diary of yours ...

                                Speaking in Gaza, which his movement overran earlier this month, defeating the forces allied with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, Haniyeh said, "the Americans won't give anything. Israel won't give us anything. Our land, our nation will not come back to us except with steadfastness and resistance," a code word for attacks against Israel.

                                •  I have not seen Israel or US giving anything (0+ / 0-)

                                  to Palestinians.

                                  Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                                  by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:08:50 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  What has that to do with (0+ / 0-)

                                    Hamas actually wanting peace?

                                  •  Israel gave back Gaza to the PA (3+ / 0-)

                                    Recommended by:
                                    arielle, blueness, bobisbob

                                    Gaza is under the control of the PA.  If the attacks had stopped it would have moved onto the West Bank.  And before you start saying Israel controls Gaza let me remind you the border between Egypt and Gaza is run under the Agreement of Movement and Access to which both the PA, Israel, and Egypt agreed.

                                    The point is if Hamas didn't use their new found freedom in Gaza to continued attacks against Israel the peace process would be much further along right now.

                                    "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                                    by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:25:45 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                              •  Except Likud doesn't have it's own army (1+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                arielle

                                I feel like we are going in circles, we all know what the Likud charter says but unlike Hamas it isn't an absolute such is the case of when  a Likud PM made peace with Egypt.  But the entire comparison is moot anyway.  It doesn't matter what the Likud charter says because Likud has no military.  Hamas on the other hand does what ever the hell it feels like, such as throwing Fatah members off roofs, because it has an army of it's own.

                                As for the second part of your statement instead of me going through a long list of Israel and it's peace proposals why don't you actually try to prove for once that Israel refuses to put things on paper.

                                And the reason I know the Hamas leadership isn't read for peace is that they want a cease fire (not peace deal), won't recognize Israel's right to exist, and won't renounce terrorism.  If they were ready for peace they would have accept the international communities conditions for aid.

                                "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                                by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:19:57 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                      •  The Likud charter (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        arielle, Doodad

                        is not comparable to either Hamas' charter or their actions. Likud calls for annexing territory currently in Israel's possession - land that Likud believes Israel has a valid claim to.

                        That is quite a bit different than a charter that calls for the violent attack and elimination of an existing state. A charter that has been backed up with both words and deeds.

                        •  yes? (0+ / 0-)

                          Arab-related issues

                          The Likud charter calls for the annexation and settlement of the entire Land of Israel, which comprises of the current territory of the State of Israel, as well as West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the whole of Jerusalem.

                          Likud has in the past espoused hawkish policies towards the Palestinians, including opposition to Palestinian statehood and support of the Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                          by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:04:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No sure what you mean (0+ / 0-)

                            that is just restating what I just said. With the exception of Gaza, all the lands that Likud wants to annex are currently possessed by Israel, lands which they consider to be disputed. Likud believes Israel's claim to be as strong as the Palestinians and they want the lands annexed into Israel.

                            Which, as I just stated is not comparable to violently attacking and eliminating an entire state (Israel) as the Hamas charter (and words and deeds) states.

                            •  No land no state. (0+ / 0-)

                              Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                              by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:18:39 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Umm... (0+ / 0-)

                                yea, that is correct. Likud does not want a State of Palestine established within the territories.

                                So you would equate not wanting to create a state with wanting to attack and eliminate a state? Is that it?

                                •  What's the difference? (0+ / 0-)

                                  Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

                                  by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:24:49 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  They don't care about Jordan (0+ / 0-)

                                    The point is they aren't against a Palestinian state in say Jordain which incidentally is mostly Palestinian.

                                    That always struck me kind of odd that people are unwilling to acknowledge that the Palestinians do have a state in what is the other part of the British Mandate for Palestine.  I guess the reason is because the British gave the area to another group of people to run as their kingdom.

                                    Frankly I think the only way there will ever be peace is if the remainder of the West Bank, after border negotiations, merged back with Jordan.  I don't think anyone but Jordan could or would be willing to do what it takes to keep the Palestinian terrorist groups inline with what ever peace deal can be reached.

                                    "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                                    by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:33:11 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                  •  Well I guess that answers that (0+ / 0-)

                                    but I have no interest in explaining to you the difference between opposing the creation of a state and violently ending one.

                                    I am sorry that cannot see that, more the pity.

                •  biggest extortion in history. (0+ / 0-)

                  if you ask me.

                  Why don't I carjack you and sell back your car cheap and call it peace deal. I am nice right?

                  Same with building settlements. build tons of it and give it back latter on negotiation table.

                  Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

                  by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:15:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Bullshit (5+ / 0-)

                    Your analogy sucks so much I am finding it hard to express it in words.  

                    The only reason Israel has the land is because of the Six Day War which was started due to the action of Egypt and the rest of the Arab League members.  Israel didn't attempt to "carjack" the Palestinians.  A better way to compare it would be that Israel and the Arab League were racing for pink slips and when Israel won the Arab League called for foul.

                    "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

                    by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:29:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's simple (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      lemming22

                      Suppose we switch place. Egypt anexing huge chunk of Israel. Then go to negotiation table asking for huge sum of money and call it peace deal.

                      Get it now?

                      Same with Hamas, suppose they start kidnapping a whole bunch of israelis and ask for money.

                      Land, people, property/money, what's the difference. Bargaining pawn to strengthen position.

                      Everybody plays the same game. We just call it different. One peace deal, the other terrorist threat.

                      Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

                      by fugue on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:12:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Hamas has become stronger? (7+ / 0-)

    I don't know about that!

    The NY Times today had an article expressing the idea that Egypt has decided to completely throw itself in with Fatah.

    "The Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, who will play host to the meeting, condemned Hamas in strong terms for staging a "coup" that left it in control of Gaza and Fatah contained to the West Bank, in fighting that has effectively split Palestinians into two geographic entities.

    "We are following closely the fallout from the coup against Palestinian legitimacy," Mr. Mubarak said in a statement to members of his party.

    "I reiterate Egypt’s support for the Palestinian National Authority, and its president, Mahmoud Abbas," he said."

    If that's "stronger", then I'd had to see what a defeat looks like!

    •  Well it's kinda like how Hezbollah (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arielle, MBNYC, zemblan, bobisbob

      "won," the war last year.

      A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

      by Doodad on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:48:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  On the talks shows this morning (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes, lemming22

      someone from Egypt said that a unity government would be the best outcome.

      Did you see this:

      Sewage works

      After church my mobile rings, it is our water engineer in Gaza calling to say that he cannot inspect the sewage lake holding back one and a half million cubic metres of sewage and toxic waste from flooding 10,000 people because there are Israeli tanks in the immediate vicinity and so it's not safe to go there. (It wasn't safe anyway, but adding the danger of being shot or blown up to the danger of being drowned in faeces is just too much danger.)
      He tells me about the sewage lake and the emergency project to partially drain it which was started four months ago when a smaller lake burst its banks and killed three women and two children and made some people homeless.

      The necessary pipes have been partly laid, the pumps have been purchased. They have been sitting for three months in Israel at the Karni crossing waiting for Israeli permission to be transferred into Gaza. He tells me the contractors had been working until security concerns and lack of permission to enter Gaza prevented them.

      There are now less than three weeks left for the work to be completed before the ever-rising level of sewage and toxic waste reaches the limit of the retaining wall's capacity to hold it back.  
      http://english.aljazeera.net/...
      \

      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

      by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:50:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

      brilliant analysts have come to the same conclusion for decades! Back when few people heard of them, people pooh-poohed them. Back when killing Sheikh Yassin would kill them off, they celebrated his death. Back when not funding them when they won the election would make people not support them....

      Keep up the brilliant thoughts....right up until Hamas surrounds Israel.

      Mubarak is out of touch with the majority of the people of Egypt, and only stays in power by arresting hundreds of members of the Muslim Brotherhood (who align with Hamas).

      But keep up the keen insights.

      Maybe you can give me a speech from King Abdallah II of Jordan while you are at it.

      (Hint: Cheney 'speaks' for America. He goes to these countries and speaks to their 'leaders' on what America will do. Neither Cheney or these 'leaders' speak for the people. Democracy does not exist. Thus, future popular reaction is not as easy to deduce as a posting by what Mubarak says.)

    •  As if Egypt had previously supported Hamas. (0+ / 0-)

      (Or Palestinians for that matter.)

      You can't lose what you never had. Wasn't Hamas born of the Muslim Brotherhood?

      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

      by callmecassandra on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:32:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It gets worse (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MBNYC, Doodad, zemblan, bobisbob

    Ismail Haniyeh has been excluded from the Sharm el-Sheikh summit.

    The other Arab leaders won't even let him sit at the table, discussing the future of his own people!

    Sweet victory!

    •  Of course not. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dcoronata, zemblan

      Haniyeh had the poor taste to become a political problem for an Arab country, Egypt, instead of just for Israel, by seizing territory on its border. We'll see how kindly they take to that. I'll bet dollars to donuts that some folks in Cairo are already trying to set the guy up for an unfortunate accident; the kind that seems to befall people whom that government deems inconvenient.

      And there we are, the beautiful; eating from TV trays, tuned in to Happy Days.

      by MBNYC on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:01:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Saudis did not need to be embarassed (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MBNYC

        again. Hamas did just that. They will not be easily, if ever, forgiven.

        If Hamas is as deep up Iran and Syria's butt as it is believed, then this was part of the play as well. They were also just embarrassed again in Lebanon by the pro-Syrian opposition.

        Should be a long hot summer.

        A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

        by Doodad on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:36:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Egyptian blockade (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        arielle, MBNYC, Doodad

        One of the posters mentioned the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

        Why is it they never mention the Egyptian blockade as well?  I'll tell you why- because Egypt isn't run by Jews, and only Jews can destroy the Palestinian economy...

  •  Heh. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    livosh1, Doodad, Emet, zemblan

    This is funny:

    Even though Hamas is calling for a qussam ceasefire, the bombings continue:

    Well, yeah, they're the ones shooting the rockets. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been under one organizational framework, the Alliance of Palestinian Forces, since 1996.

    Although Islamic Jihad and Hamas were fierce rivals in the early years, after the signing of the 1993 Oslo Accords both joined the Damascus-based Alliance of Palestinian Forces (APF) and set aside their differences. By 1995, Hamas had also established its operational headquarters in Damascus (its political office was then still in Amman) and, at the behest of Iran, the two were coordinating their terrorist activities.

    And there we are, the beautiful; eating from TV trays, tuned in to Happy Days.

    by MBNYC on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:57:24 PM PDT

  •  the rockets continue to fire (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    arielle, MBNYC, Doodad, zemblan, bobisbob

    at Israel, and Israel continues to fire back. Not sure why you Israel has to stop if Hamas won't stop.

    What would prevent Captain America from being a hero "Death, Maybe"

    by Doughnutman on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:26:41 PM PDT

  •  Have people here lost their ability (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Florida Democrat, howardx

    to recommend and rate??

    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

    by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:39:17 PM PDT

  •  Hey mattes (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    arielle, Eric S, Doodad

    Since you asked about Peres, here you go:

    "If there are jobs for two-and-a-half million Palestinians, we'll see a different West Bank," said President-elect Shimon Peres in his first public speech since his election on Sunday, as he called for Israel to economically assist the Palestinians.

    He also noted that Jordan would be an important partner in the economic development of the region.

    Speaking to the opening of the Jewish Agency Assembly on Sunday morning, Peres also spoke of Hamas's demands for recognition.

    "If Hamas takes care of their children, we'll help them. If they shoot at our children, we'll stop them in every possible way," he announced to the audience of representatives from around the Jewish world. "They must understand that the choice is in their hands - you can't shoot and expect to be respected."

    Can't say I disagree. No, rephrase: I do agree. If Israel puts together a development program for the West Bank, sure, absolutely, we should support that, even pay for most of it. And if I know Congress, they'll spend the money gladly. If you give ordinary Palestinians a stake in the peace, they'll support it; I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

    As to his remarks on Hamas, again, I've said this before: they haven't made that crucial step yet. I happen to think they're not capable of it, and as long as that is the case, they will and must be resisted. And they will be.

    Totally OT, but check this out.

    And there we are, the beautiful; eating from TV trays, tuned in to Happy Days.

    by MBNYC on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:08:09 PM PDT

    •  Given the choice most Pals IMO (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arielle, MBNYC, Eric S, zemblan, bobisbob

      would dump Fatah and Hamas like a rock if they could. As to peace, I remain pessimistic given the generations of brainwashing against Jews; yes Jews, not just Zionists. Quitting cold turkey is always hard.

      A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

      by Doodad on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:11:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The IraqMoratorium.org will never work (0+ / 0-)

      Because it doesn't address the underlying problem of what is going to happen when we leave.  I think anyone in their right mind wants us out of Iraq ASAP but not everyone is willing to let Iraq descend into chaos to accomplish it.  Unfortunately it is kind of like, we broke it we bought it.  The United States, and not just Bush, has a responsibility for what happens now in Iraq.

      "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

      by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:04:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No matter what we do there will be blowback. (0+ / 0-)

        Just how many Arabs do we want to kill? Stop now.

        Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

        by mattes on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:07:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except minizing blow back isn't the debate. (0+ / 0-)

          I would  love nothing more then if debate about Iraq was about how to minimize blow back but it isn't.  We seem to have gotten stuck in this "stay the course no matter what" or lets "pull out right this second".  I don't think either is right.  What we should be looking at is how to prevent Iraq from turning into a regional war between Sunnis and Shias which if we pull out right away it might ever well happen.  Saudi Arabia already said it won't stand idly by and watch the Sunni get slaughtered.  If they send troops it is very likely Iran would get involved and you can see it escalating quickly from there.

          I also decided to ignore your comment about killing Arabs because it was needlessly inflammatory and added nothing to this debate.

          "Israel is the Jew among nations." - Golda Meir

          by hadees on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:20:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mattes, sofia, howardx

    Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

    as always thanks Mattes

    "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

    by npbeachfun on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:00:03 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for the diary, mattes! n/t (1+ / 0-)