Daily Kos

Conversations in a Liberal household

Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:49:03 PM PDT

I diary stuff for my own process of making sense of it all. Sometimes we struggle, being Liberal and living right on the Buckle of the Bible Belt .... I post this because I know that others here face the same struggle, and in posting hope that y'all feel just a little bit less alone :)

Sometimes we have conversations. We have a happy marriage, one that has not yet tired of exploring ideas about the world around us, and how we relate to it. I have a sneaking suspicion that we never will, actually, tire of it, and that is the source of a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction for both of us. In the beginning .... a cute phrase, doncha think? ... Jodie looked to me to help her find answers to things she had long considered, but never conceptualised, let alone put into words. Mostly it was about attitudes she had inherited, from parents, family, school and her general surroundings here in Oklahoma. I think what drove her to ask me was that I was simply the first person she had ever been close to that had been brought up in a different culture, with different ideas and a completely different perspective. It was probably encouraged by the fact that I clearly wanted to listen, and was willing to share.

That is where we came from, we have moved on a good deal. Jodie is now much more of an equal, in our conversations. She asserts her views, and listens to mine. She is equal in her own head, she was never anything less in mine.

Of late, the subject of Creationism has been on our minds. Not so much that it is something we obsess about, or even discuss much. Just generally. Little things like the opening of a Museum dedicated to lying to children about Evolution .... minor issues like that and the recent Republican debate where three of the ten rich old white men wanting to be President asserted a belief in Creationism, and a scepticism about Evolution. And they want to be the next Leader of the Free World!! The scary bit is that one of them might .... that they even can be considered credible is bad enough. I digress.

Today we chatted about the Universe, the speed of light, and the origins of religion.

Not bad for a quiet Tuesday afternoon. It was just one of those conversations that meandered a bit. Neither of us were seeking to explain the Big Bang, what came before it or what might happen in the unimaginably distant future when the universe stops expanding. These are answers that are unknowable, and quite likely will remain so well past next week. So it doesn't matter much.

We nattered about Einstein, about the speed of light (whether, if it is a constant, time is constant), because it kinda matters if distance is to have much meaning, and whether or not God is a concept, created by man to satisfy his own need to have answers, or whether there really is God, or a God, or several ....

We ended up talking about what has changed in the 2000 years of Christianity, accepting too that there was religion before Christianity, and that there probably has never been a time when there was actually less religion than the current time; though, living in Oklahoma, it doesn't seem that way.

For what it's worth ...... my view is that, right from the time of the earliest men, there has existed a need to understand the world around us. It was easy enough, when dragging the bear back to the cave, to understand that one was able to directly affect your immediate surroundings. It was impossible to understand what affected, or effected change in the wider environment. For example/ It's not too hard to plant a crop and see the result of the planting. You did it, and the wheat makes the bread. It is not so easy to understand why some years it rains when you need it to, and some years there is drought. That is entirely outwith the control of an individual.

It must have been a very short step from hoping that it would rain to praying that it would.

As our collective knowledge grows, we need to pray a little less (although hope springs eternal). We understand a great deal about why things happen, how and the mechanisms involved. It's also not so hard to make this leap of faith .... and I use the term advisedly ... If it is the case, that developments in our knowledge have lead to a clear understanding of things that were hitherto unknown, then it's not such a leap to expect that much of what is currently unknown, will not remain so for ever.

We also discussed why America appears to be in the grip of such Fundamentalist Religious Nuttery. It's a personal view, but I suspect it has a good deal to do with time .... and development in terms of nationhood. It's easy for the UK, with it's thousand year tradition of Parliament, to be relaxed about religion. It's just as easy for France, Germany, Spain, etc. Remember, the USA has been an independent nation for only a matter of two hundred years or so. How long ago the Spanish Inquisition, the persecution of Catholics in the UK and the dissolution of the Monasteries?

Jodie believes in God. She believes in God in the way all decent Christian folk do ... as a source of strength and inspiration .... not a daily ritual, but a staff when one is needed. I don't, and we live very happily together, with our conversations.

Neither of us believes the new museum (sic) is anything other than lies. Lies that will harm our children. The last gasp of a failed and dying theocracy.

Tags: creationism, religion, personal, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 21 comments

  •  Thank you (8+ / 0-)

    for a very comforting and personal diary.

    I feel very much the same way, even though I live in ever-urban Seattle.

    I have always recognized the comfort that religion provided to my grandmother.

    I guess I just chose to find comfort in the changing of the seasons, the ebb and flow of the human tide, the thrill of scientific and historical discovery.

    It is nice to know that Oklahoma is not so far away after all.

    We have become what they fear.

    by tecampbell on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 11:08:38 PM PDT

  •  great topic for conversation (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tecampbell, va dare, marykk, rogerdaddy

     Our marriage/family is similar - we talk all the time about religion, science, recent science findings and politics. We also have made a habit of reading aloud before, during and after the children. Family reading hour during the children's teen years was the inspiration for lots of talk. Mr meerkoet and I are just beginning Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Civilization". Over the years together (37 now), we have evolved to basing our lives and marriage on enlightenment principles. So it was great to read of similarities in another marriage.
      I did want to quibble with you on one statement, however. Findings suggest that America is growing less religious not more. Here: Religious Tolerance and here:The Barna Group. And, whether these surveys are accurate or not, I must believe them or I would go mad. I think the religious right is becoming smaller but louder. And, I live in hopes that the Creation Museum will die quietly from lack of attendance.

    "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Lennon/McCartney

    by meerkoet on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:45:30 AM PDT

    •  I dunno (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      meerkoet

      I was thinking it might be a really amusing day trip, so to speak.  OK, a better day trip if you're stoned, but sort of a cross between Disney's "small world" and "Jurassic Park"

      Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers.

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:57:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh I was (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joy221, meerkoet

      giving only my impression. Coming from the UK, the religious influnce here is quite a culture shock. I do hope it's true that the USA is becoming more tolerant .... I certainly believe it will eventually.

      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

      by twigg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:06:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't understand why we are more religious (0+ / 0-)

        either. Yes, we are. I concur with that. I've always thought that historically the better educational system played a role. America's historical anti-intellectualism, perhaps.  Another reason may be the linking of religion with the state in England.
            But religious fanatics do exist in England as well - remember Mary Whitehouse, for example, who campaigned against Monty Python and "The Life of Brian"? And, Billy Graham's reception in England was astounding. He made many converts. Do you see alot of religious fanatacism where you live now? - Are your neighbors and friends regular churchgoers? (Just curious)
           I must continue to believe that fundamentalism is waning but screaming as it goes.

        "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Lennon/McCartney

        by meerkoet on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 09:55:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mary Whithouse's and Victoria Gillicks (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          joy221

          exist all over the Western world, I am sure. The difference in the UK is simply that generally the people there shy away from, and abhor fanaticism.

          I still think it is a developmental thing .... The USA, advanced as it is in very many areas, is also a young nation ... put unlimitless power in the hands a a bunch of teens, and there will be some parallels. Please do not think I am disparaging the US here, that is not my intention. I would also contest that the US will develop, socially and culturally, much faster than Europe ever managed.

          If we stick with the teen example for just a moment .... the US could be argued to be the adilescent child of the United Kingdom ... I know it's thin .... and like all parents, the UK will, and will want to see the US develop further than we ever dreamed of ... for all it's citizens.

          Oh, and yes, you can't throw a football in Tulsa without hitting a church :)

          We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

          by twigg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:19:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh I wasn't suggesting disparagement on your part (0+ / 0-)

              No, I'm just trying to get my head around this subject myself. I wasn't suggesting that you were disparaging the US. I'm just not sure I agree with your analysis. We are largely a more undereducated lot in the US - and I think that goes a long way in explaining the problem.
              We were,after all, a nation founded on enlightenment principles not adolescent ones.
              And, according to one of the surveys I linked to, only 7% of Americans consider themselves fundamentalists. But it appears to me to be a very loud 7% - convincing enough (as you so rightly pointed out) to get Republican candidates voicing skepticism in evolution.
              I come from a region of the country with fewer church goers - although I find it difficult to voice my atheism among American strangers (a frustrating situation).
              Thanks again for your diary.

            "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Lennon/McCartney

            by meerkoet on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:58:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am a little sensitive (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              meerkoet

              It's very hard, sometimes, to have dialogue with Americans that even hints that there might be a few issues here needing resolving :) The community here is more open to discussion, but I live in Oklahoma, y'understand.

              I agree about the education situation. My wife is a High School Special Ed. Teacher .... but that is a whole other diary.

              Thank you for chatting, it's fun.

              We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

              by twigg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:54:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Oklahoma... (0+ / 0-)

    If you or anyone else is not paying for the Creation Museum, then what is it hurting you?  Oh, that's right... a sign of the liberal, "If you don't agree with me, then you are nothing."

    Great to have you in Oklahoma... remember, we are the ones who banned gay marriage, just signed a bill giving local authorities the right to jail illegal immigrants, and we have ORU.

    But it was a good post...

  •  Excellent post (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dadanation, twigg

    The underlying theme to all of this is "reason".

    Reasonable people can participate in respectful discourse, regardless of differences. They can propose new ideas and thoughts without condemming others for thinking differently.

    Others create museums to force feed a belief that on it's own, retains little merit.

    Insisting that one's beliefs are the correct beliefs is, to me, the height of arrogance. I believe in a higher power because it serves as a source of strength for me.

    The republican debates continue to be a horrifying exercise in propogating a narrow minded agenda. I feel comfort knowing that like minded and reasonable people live in every pocket of this country. I hope it shows even more in 2008.

    Well done!

    •  Couldn't agree more ... (0+ / 0-)

      In all the years I have known you, and the discussions we have had, I never actually knew you "believed".

      That strikes me as the purest form of religious belief .... profound and personal.

      Thanks for commenting.

      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

      by twigg on Thu Jun 07, 2007 at 07:57:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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