yes, AMEN: damn the ignorance about guns

When I saw the title of this diary, I thought great, it's going to be about some facts most people don't know in the US.

No, rather the story has not been told by what happens to people on the other side of guns.

Whoever advocates war:  so, have you ever killed anyone?

Ignorance about guns?  Oh yes.  Most US people are ignorant of these gun facts:

Of the active conflicts in 1999, the United States supplied arms or military technology to parties in more than 92% of them --39 out of 42. In over one-third of these conflicts - 18 out of 42 - the United States provided from 10% to 90% of the arms imported by one side of the dispute.

The U.S. government is training soldiers in upwards of 70 countries at any given time. The most transparent, and consequently well known of these training programs is the Pentagon's International Military Education and Training Program (IMET). Recent graduates as well as soldiers soon to be trained by this program come from countries at war or with horrific human rights records, including Indonesia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Congo, and Cote d'Ivoire.

Ignorance indeed about guns... and we thought the core problem was Iraq.

Or how about an exchange from this diary:

I've not witnessed a violent death. I'm certain that would change my perspective in ways I can't comprehend at this time

answered as follows:

the person who comes to mind is my husband, a classical piano prodigy who was drafted into Viet Nam despite five years' college.  They threw him in the front lines of the infantry (11B for those who know what that means).  He believes he may have shot 1,000 people and will never know. He got a bronze star for valor, which is the highest award most ever get without actually getting killed.  

Now he hates guns, and hates war more than any person I've ever met.  We both are dedicated to the perhaps "unreasonable" idea of no guns, no wars, period.  He won't suffer talk of war.  Ever.  Anyone who tries to talk that way, he asks:  so, you ever kill anyone?
There may be no hard and fast statistics, but my husband guesses that fewer than 2% of military people ever are in a situation where they have to witness a death via their own shot. Therefore a lot of military people have no clue about the actual front lines, and perhaps should go there before they continue prescribing war for the rest of the people.  As for the "architects" of the Iraq war, none have even served and the chief of it all is called "the deserter" here.

We wonder what the true militarism level is in this country.  If you count all the peripheral contractors of any variety, what is it?  5-10% of the economy?  More?

People have no idea what they advocate by war.  The first thing they need to do is get rid of the movie images.  I'm told Platoon is the only one that got it.  There are a lot of bad shots.  People gutshot lie screaming for hours.  Most don't die right away.  So much agony.  

Does that excite some people?  Evidently so.  Or would they rethink it all if thrown onto the battlefield?  You ask the most relevant question of the day with your quote above.

It is possible to own all the guns in the world... and remain ignorant about killing people.

Maybe that is why our nation is better known as a league of bullies and cowards.  The old adage applies, about taking one's own medicine.  Ignorance about guns?  Certainly too many living off a GDP grossly inflated by gun sales are ignorant of the picture on the opposite side of the gunfire.

•  if anyone reading

  has actually had to fire a weapon on another person, let's hear about it below.

  by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:09:33 AM PDT

  •  note: ^^ tip jar above ^^ n/t

    by dconrad on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 03:42:13 AM PDT

  •  about that other diary

    are allowed by their governments to have gun orgies as are people in the US (and I'm NOT talking about hunting).

    It is an overall mentality that 1) unquestioningly has sustained an economy built on guns/wars, made us wealthy and fat in many cases, and 2) has psychologically underpinned our society's mentality in ugly ways (TV is one start):
    No other people on earth are allowed by their governments to have gun orgies as are people in the US (and I'm NOT talking about hunting).

    It is an overall mentality that 1) unquestioningly has sustained an economy built on guns/wars, made us wealthy and fat in many cases, and 2) has psychologically underpinned our society's mentality in ugly ways (TV is one start).

    This is not an accident, that the people are so loose about guns, and our entire economic machine now runs on weaponry via the war profits pieced out through the credit bubble (and how many here understand that many war profiteers are working through anonymous agencies like hedge funds?).

    And while I don't see BK advocating militarism, the title taunts people to appreciate guns.  I barely do, and with good reason.  

    Damn it, everyone here criticizes the chickenhawks and deserter who lead this country, yet I see this lavish orgy of gun fetishism on the same site?

    No one sees a relationship with a culture driven by guns/murder images (any western movie, almost) and a government that cranks out death over all the planet?  No repentance anyone?

    We choose then the hypocrisy of criticizing warmongering leaders while never addressing the military sales that make a significant core part of our (previously) lavish economy?

    When are people going to realize that the falling economy, our international economic decimation, just MIGHT be related to our laissez-faire personal attitude towards guns?  

    Don't people know that people from any other country on earth are truly grossed out by US' gun-worshipping culture?

    I find this kind of a gun orgy inordinate when we are supposedly grieving what is going on amid the US' many killing fields.  Or does anyone suppose that people from other nations never read what goes on here on DKOs?

    I say the group of people known as the US citizenry should behave with more humility about the subject of weapons.  Damn but I wish you who exalt gun culture could see how you look in the world's eyes.

    And most of the weapons manufactured here go abroad to kill people.  They are not hunting arms.

    What is most ugly/ironic of all is that so many of the comments have to do with people talking about buying weapons to defend themselves from the government and their employees.  Well the US is armed to the teeth, in all homes.  Can't ONE of the people who object to what I say understand what would happen given a "civil war" in the US?  Everyone will let loose against the other.  Gunfire and killing really do make people crazy, ask someone who has really been to war (where are they here?).  People go nuts, you will never see some "orderly revolution" like the hallucinatory realm TV and movies have brought US people all these years.  It will be a bloodbath.  The people will all slay one another.

    And above all damn Hollywood for giving the US people such stupid ideas about war.  People don't just quickly fall and die when people start shooting.  There are tons of bad shots, and it is really ugly.  Anyone who takes a life of another in battle of any kind forfeits a part of him/herself.  Ask your veterans who have actually been in infantry armed combat, for whom I will bet you this kind of gun orgy may appear highly inappropriate.

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 07:06:17 AM PDT

•  Please post your tip jar

  Thank you for writing this. I noticed on the diary you referenced is a poll asking whether a series on "What People DO With All Those Guns" would be useful. I don't get it, guns are used to hurt, kill or destroy unless the diarist was thinking of writing about guns as art objects....oddly enough, in the wee early hours of the morning, when scary thoughts creep in, under this regime, I can see myself considering the gun.

  by fumie on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:29:03 AM PDT

  •  If you are considering that

    You will be fodder.  Dead fodder that creates an excuse to put others in the concentration camps already built.  Violence is only for the prepared and only for when victory is certain.  All else is counter productive self glorification.

    And if the diarist were to post a tip jar he might find a number of doughnuts appear in it.  His restraint was wise.

    by Demena on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:39:39 AM PDT

    •  thank you Demena

      just for the record Stonemason ("stonemasonette?") is a woman.

      Thank you for your sense here.  You may relate with my comment below.

      by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:56:02 AM PDT

  •  I meant the initial comment as a tip jar

    but this will do instead if anyone wants.

    I live with the effects of guns, my husband is the man featured in the diary, and PTSD is a constant in our lives.

    My husband tells me that in Viet Nam in ‘67 that after a firefight, his company went in among the dead only to find US manufactured M16 bullets in the belts of the dead Viet Cong - bullets made in the vicinity of his home town St. Paul in New Brighton, Minnesota.  The US was marketing weapons to both sides.  Many of his fellow soldiers fell to these bullets.

    This diary is a toxic reaction to another diary which is, best I can tell, about gun fetishism.  I got very angry when I saw the dogpile of comments because I don't think people begin to comprehend the ultimate purpose of the gun (most weapons the US sells are for killing people, not hunting), and I find it unfair to celebrate the thing in absence of a discussion of its ultimate purpose.

    As to guns/revolutions, I strongly disagree.  We are a centralized people.  Most US people wouldn't know where to find fresh water in a shutdown, let alone food.  If the people rise up in revolution, all "central" has to do is turn off the electricity in January and suddenly all will clearly comprehend the relationship between their pump, electricity, and water.  What will happen is all the elderly, the sick, and infants will die as a lot of people run around trying to be heroes with guns.  Ask yourself if it is worth it, if you can stand yourself knowing your war heroism cost your elderly neighbors their lives.  Because the central govt certainly would shut down all roads, electricity, utilities if the people rise up in arms.  And the very urbanized people of the US don't know how to deal with basic stuff, such as farming/scrounging.  Then there is winter.  Everything freezes solid for most of the areas of the US during winter, and which cities know how to deal with that minus power?  

    People think it's so easy.  Wait until you shoot a weapon and watch someone die on the other end of it.  Most don't die right away.  Oh what I've heard from my husband.  If you can shoot at all, anyway.  Most shots are bad ones.

    I had the same problem with talk of violent overthrow of South Africa.  I was living in Africa at the time (Kenya) and there was one railroad leading up from South Africa through the continent.  People just don't realize that during war, soldiers ride around in boxcars, food stops coming down the line, and women and children starve, die and are raped.  People don't realize how insane the very act of waging war will make everyone.

    Which is why I favor established legal channels towards dealing with what is happening in our land.  A lot of people seem to be realizing that impeachment may be necessary immediately, or any other legal maneuvres which can preserve our people.

    War is insanity.  

    Please please, are there any veterans out there reading this?  Guys/gals who have actually used firearms in war?

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:54:44 AM PDT

    •  War sucks.

      Period. Even for anybody who might care to declare themselves the "winner" at the end. The only real winners are the profiteers, who should probably be lynched anyway for inciting it to begin with, say, Krupps and DuPonts and, oh, Bushes.

      War is a Racket. Required reading written by the most decorated American fighter up to his time.

      All that said, there are legitimate uses for firearms. It is not inherently a sin to be familiar with them, and in fact many people do protect and supplement their livelihood with them without having to discharge them at other humans. An understanding of them does not condone murder and mayhem in and of itself.

      By way of disclosure, I do not currently own any firearm. I have in the past, and I may in the future. Killing people is not even on my most bizarre list of things to do on any given day, yet in certain circumstances guns are useful tools. One could almost as easily kill somebody with a chainsaw, and I'd give fair odds that more people are stabbed than shot on a daily basis, and yet all the vitriol is reserved for guns.

      Part of me understands it. So much wrong has been committed at the muzzle of a gun. So many have been forced into doing things they could not have imagined. I just say that it's hardly the fault of the tool. Should we ban machetes worldwide because ten year olds were forced to chop the arms and legs off of their relatives and neighbors in West Africa for the political gain of their abductors? Is there no other valid purpose to the instrument?

      I'm just saying place blame where blame belongs. Many of us who have familiarity with guns also have the utmost respect and understanding of the evil they can do, and zero desire to commit any of it.

      Please don't conflate guns and war. They do have separate existences, though they are often seen together, Hand grenades, mortars and land mines I'll be behind you 110% as to their complete inappropriateness in civil society, and my backing that civil society is the only type we should have.

      by justme on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 03:38:49 AM PDT

      •  while

        I separate with you on some points, I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

        Mainly, most of the weapons sold by the US go outside the country to other people's wars.  And those weapons are not for hunting... they are manufactured solely to kill people.

        I know plenty of gun owners (I'm from Montana, grew up there and Wyoming) who are indeed dear people (and of course others who are not).  And I recognize, being from a ranching/farming people, that there are times to deal with predators.

        The only ones I know who have killed people were forced to do so upon being drafted.

        My greatest lament is that most US people have not a clue how huge a part military gear plays in our economy.

        by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:23:26 AM PDT

        •  I'm with you

          when it comes to export. Foreign policy by proxy war is a pretty despicable policy of "Hey, let's you and him fight". I suppose there must be situations where I could find such "aid" defensible, but they'd be few and far between. The misery caused by the distribution of M-16s, not to mention AK-47s, we're not the only ones to export death wholesale, is enormous. And of course, the bigger weapons are even worse.

          There is no need to tell me how much we spend on our military. Some $700 billion for the coming budget year.  That equates to somewhere around $3000 for every man, woman and child in America. Around 7-8% of the median earnings of the full time worker, nearly half of that worker's tax burden. 60-65% of discretionary Federal spending. More than everybody else in the world combined.

          While a worthy force to defend our shores is undoubtedly important, that's not exactly what our military is structured for. It seems, at times, to be structured to fill the coffers of the contractors, but that's a rant for another day.

          Unfortunately, all those Congresscritters that need to bring home the pork just keep ratcheting it up, more and more each year. One might think that we could figure out a more constructive method to redistribute our tax revenue, not to mention a more effective type of foreign aid.

          by justme on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:17:01 PM PDT

•  very Fox ish diary

  There are uses for guns beyond killing people or waging war.  But lets just set up a simplistic either/or situation and go all self righteous.

  Few here really quarrel with reasonable gun control.  Or support the US training armies for the many evil governments we do that for.  And virtually none support the stupid war we are currently waging.  But many folks hunt for sport/food or target shoot.  They aren't the problem any more than those of us that drink a beer now and then are responsible for drunk driving deaths.

  And just what percentage of our GDP is related to guns?  Doubt it even exceeds the contribution of chewing gum.  

  by HiD on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:48:52 AM PDT

  •  Bullshit

    What is "foxish" about it?  It raises a very good point.  Most Americans will never know what it's like to take a life with a gun.  I certainly hope I will never find out first-hand.  Most will never know a casualty of war looks like and our government and our media will never let us find out.

    by ortcutt on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 02:57:40 AM PDT

  •  asdf

    answer:

    The United States is by far the largest exporter of weapons in the world, with a sales volume that exceeds the next 14 countries combined. Military sales equate to about 18 percent of the Federal budget, far and away the greatest proportion of any nation. (Estimated budget authority as presented in the President's budget.) John Ralston Saul states that the American government cannot reduce arms sales because of the consequent fall in GDP. (See John Ralston Saul's The Collapse of Globalism, 2005)

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 03:01:40 AM PDT

    •  and don't look now, but

      Wrigley is facing competition from Cadbury. The Big Boys know where the money's to be made. Everywhere.

      by peaceloveandkucinich on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:00:40 AM PDT

    •  Chilling

      But very much a success if the goal is to maximize destabilization, steal resources,  and depopulate the planet.

      by marina on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:55:49 AM PDT

•  This diary

  is on "ignore."

  by kestrel9000 on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 04:15:24 AM PDT

  •  called on account of unnecessary

    rudeness. Apparently it's NOT on ignore if you have to mention it. What exactly is it about the difference between the theory and the practice of killing people with guns that upsets you so? If yer gonna respond, make it worth reading.

    by peaceloveandkucinich on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:04:12 AM PDT

    •  .

      by kestrel9000 on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:19:13 AM PDT

•  "All the guns in the world," she said...

  It is possible to own all the guns in the world... and remain ignorant about killing people.

  Yes. Another movie that "gets it" is Falling Down.

  by peaceloveandkucinich on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 04:47:43 AM PDT

•  I've never had to fire a weapon

  thank FSM...but I've lost acquaintances to gun violence.

  I also have known hunters (for food not for sport), and respect their responsible use and care of their firearms.

  I honestly don't see why so many folks are down on this diary though -- this is one person, sharing her and her husband's personal experience, which may be eventually reflected by many of the young men and women returning from Iraq to fight their mental demons unto eternity.

  I appreciate your sharing this --

  by Cali Scribe on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 05:49:04 AM PDT

  •  thank you

    What I don't get is that a big part of this diary is about guns for war, not for hunting.

    I am looking to see where I said "all guns are evil and used for evil purpose" and I don't see it.

    Why does not one person yet respond to the fact that our military sales equal 18% of the federal budget?  Doesn't anyone see some bad karma for a nation like that?

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:27:15 AM PDT

    •  And for some reason

      there seems to be no accounting for where all those weapons go, or how they end up in the hands of criminals and people fighting our own soldiers.

      by marina on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:59:29 AM PDT

•  Cleveland on track for another deadly record

  Three people killed in shootings Sunday Morning. Front page in The Plain Dealer. During the July 4th weekend 11 people were shot, 6 of them killed. Three of those killed when an off-duty Fireman responded to fireworks from inconsiderate neighbors with his own fireworks. Even though he had a dozen firearms of various types, his choice, like yesterday's three homicides, and most of the gun related deaths so far in Cleveland are from handguns. Now the NRA is pushing for passage of the law to expand self-defense shootings now legal defending your home to the streets or anywhere you feel threatened. Advocates point out that the states where this is now law haven't had many instances of its use as a defense. But how many more than one senseless killing under questionable circumastances of self-defense is too many?

  by OHdog on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:25:53 AM PDT

•  Thanks for this diary.....

  My spouse is a readjustment counselor for the Vet Center.  I hear your story and am so sympathetic.  He himself still wakes up with nightmares.  His clients still have symptoms- one just died in a car wreck that may have been drinking or may have been suicide- we will never really know for sure.  My dad was a WW II vet with two purple hearts and a scad of ribbons- and was my FIL.  I support he need to go to war to fight tyranny or end genocide.  But why make it worse by arming the world and then wondering where they got the damned guns?

  by murrayewv on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 07:50:20 AM PDT

  •  asdf

    bless your family forever, may we all share healing from standing at the business end of guns.

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 08:24:30 AM PDT

    •  FIL had some collectable guns.....

      we sold them except spouse's granny's 22 rifle from Kansas.  That is in a pillowcase somewhere.  My dad- no guns in the house.  Our family- no gun in house-except Granny's 22 somewhere.  Not going to study war no more.

      by murrayewv on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 11:40:20 AM PDT

      •  when we auctioned our estate

        we sold my Dad's weapons, which were on display to potential buyers for hours in advance.

        Some of the most perverse people showed up at dawn to stroke and caress them off and on for hours until said guns came on the block at one p.m.  They literally fondled the Ruger.  It was their sex.

        Of course they came to mind while reading the gun diary.

        by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 07:31:43 PM PDT

•  Every veteran...

  ....that I've ever talked to says that they have no desire to talk about if they ever killed anyone. And my grandfather, a World War II veteran, says that he's glad he was never in a position where he had to kill someone, though he did get shot at a few times.

  by metal prophet on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 07:58:13 AM PDT

  •  If you saw me lose it on the other diary...

    I kind of lost my voice, head filled up with heat... because there was no one there who had really stood on the business end of a gun or had to shoot anyone.  At least they didn't speak up.

    Having known people from the business end of death, I think I understand what you're saying... it takes the joy out of weaponry for good if you survive the experience.

    by stonemason on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 08:26:33 AM PDT

•  never fired a gun at a human being

  but I have seriously injured someone with a knife in self defense. It's not pretty, it's not romantic, it's gory and bloody and horrible. I don't regret doing it (it was his knife, and I'm fairly sure he intended to use it on me eventually, although he denied it just like he denied the other things he was trying to do). But I have nightmares still, on top of the other nightmares...it's not anything I would ever want to go through again.

  I've hunted deer and moose for subsistence (food/leather). I have a weak stomach, hurting animals is really really hard (witness my violently appalled reaction to the recent shark finning diary - I think hurting living things for any reason other than basic subsistence requirements is deeply wrong) but I know how to hunt and I own a rifle, which happens to be a modified AK74, handed down from my bio father. I hope I never have to use it but it's one of the few tangible assets I own and the only thing I have from my father, so I'd kind of like to keep it.

  I also own a revolver, which I use for target shooting but also keep available to defend myself should another situation arise where I have to. I have really mixed feelings about using it but I imagine I probably would. I'm not exactly big and strong, I have no other way to overpower a full-grown man, and I kind of lost my trust in humanity a long time ago.

  Not sure what my point here is...never been on the front lines, just a sailor fixing airplanes on a boat in the Gulf, know nothing whatsoever about the soldier's experience of war, think that passing out weapons in a war zone is an evil sadistic idea, but on the flip side I want to keep my guns for non-war-related reasons. I think there's a middle ground on this issue. It's just hard to find.

  by kyril on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 02:00:08 AM PDT