Daily Kos

38 years ago today: Was Neil Armstrong wrong about mankind?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:02:02 AM PDT

It happened 38 year ago – July 20, 1969. It was one of those moments in time where you remember exactly where you were when it happened.  I myself was 11 years old at the time, living with my family in a trailer park in Boulder, Colorado. I remember the broadcast starting early in the afternoon and lasting until late at night, with a few breaks off and on in between.  My family watched it mostly on CBS with Walter Cronkite on our crummy old black & white TVs with rabbit ears. You could also watch it with David Brinkley on NBC or Frank Reynolds on ABC.  There was nothing else on.  

It started with the long, slow, agonizing descent of the Lunar Earth Module (LEM) onto the surface of the Moon - "The Eagle has landed".  Then, after what seemed like hours of technical analysis, the astronauts opened the hatch, and Neil Armstrong got out and went down the ladder putting his left foot on the moon - "One small step for a man, One giant leap for mankind". See  Apollo 11 videos from NASA

What did Neil Armstrong’s "One giant leap for mankind" really mean?

It seemed like a paradigm shift at the time.  It seemed to mean that Human Civilization was finally going to grow out of its Neanderthal "cradle" and advance to a higher level.  All those centuries of primitive tribal customs like wars and saber rattling and superstitious stone age beliefs were going to fade out of existence and be replaced by a new wisdom and compassion and sense of higher purpose.  Granted, the whole space program was started because of our fear of a Russian "Communist Moon".  The Vietnam War was also still going on at that time, along with the Civil Rights Movement, and the Cold War. There was plenty of poverty in the world.  And there was that pesky nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union.
 
We might yet completely obliterate the planet with nuclear MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).  But we also had hope, from visionaries of the future like Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, Gene Roddenberry, Arthur C. Clark and others, who told us that we had potential, and if we could just hang on and get past all this self-destructive, primitive behavior, we could get into the next century, and advance to a higher level.   We really had the capability of eliminating the majority of human suffering on Earth.  The technology was already there. All we needed was the wisdom and maturity to follow it up. The world could be a much better, more peaceful and prosperous place.  We could finally reach a harmony with the Earth.

Apparently we just couldn’t get past those primitive tribal customs.    

The last part of the Apollo program was cancelled and most of NASA’s money was cut because many people complained that the money could be better spent at home.  Liberals said it should be used for social programs; to end poverty, upgrade the schools, rebuild the inner cities, and provide better medical care for all.  Conservatives wanted to cut government spending and taxes and build a strong national defense.  In the 38 years since the first Moon landing we elected Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, and Bush 43 into the White House.  That’s a total of 12 years for the Democrats and 26 years for Republicans in office since 1969.  Has the world gotten significantly better since then?  Conservatives would probably argue, but it’s the conservative agenda that finally won.   I see several major conservative shifts in American policy affecting NASA (and other areas of society) since 1969:

  • Reagan’s corporate "welfare" defense programs

The Space-Industrial-Complex didn’t go away – most of it was transferred over to become part of the Military-Industrial-Complex.  Billions of dollars were initially cut from NASA for several years, and then when Reagan took over, he basically turned most of that industry over to the Pentagon for National Defense.  Many scientists and technologists went over to the military.  Instead of building rockets to go to the Moon and beyond, the Military-Industrial-Complex grew larger and built rockets to carry nuclear missiles.   Billions and billions of dollars poured into highly advanced killing machines of all sorts - supersonic jets, huge aircraft carriers, laser-guided weapons and missiles and gadgets of all kinds.   Even after now, long after the Cold War has ended, defense contracts continue to be churned out at an incredible rate, with advanced weapon systems being designed with no real enemy in mind (unless we are we are expecting invaders from Mars someday).  Maybe Bin Laden has an advanced Air Force or Navy hiding somewhere.

  • Individual materialism

A better word here might be consumerism.  It’s that obsession that most Americans have now to become personally rich and buy lots of "things" that they don’t really need.  Conspicuous consumption, luxuries and bling.  You can’t be happy unless you have giant house, big SUV, and lots of "things".  It’s a part of American conservative mythology that anyone can become rich, if they just try hard enough.  Conversely, if you are poor, it means you are lazy and it’s your own fault. You deserve to starve.  Selfishness and greed are good for the economy.  Altruism toward the less fortunate is bad - socialism – close to communism.  Capitalism = Patriotism.

There was once a time in America when the pursuit of money and individual consumerism was not the whole purpose of life.   I remember it.   I remember spending about 4 months with friends, hitchhiking to California, with all my most valuable possessions in nothing but a backpack. I was happy.  I sometimes wonder if I was happier then, than I am now with all my "things".  There was once an idea called "The Common Good".  It’s a subversive concept that conservatives have been trying to kill off for years now – the idea that you should take care of the environment and your fellow human beings, even if there’s no profit in it.   Even the poorest members of a society deserve to have food, housing, education, and healthcare.  Compassion for your neighbors.  The environment is more important that the economy.  Work together as a society to build a better future.  As I said, a subversive idea, more dangerous than terrorism.

  • Anti-science, anti-intellectualism, anti-environmentalism

Most Americans can’t find Iraq on a map.  69% of Americans don't know who the Vice President is. According to polls, about 47% of Americans believe that the Earth was created in less than 6,000 years.  Humans are the center of the Universe because God said so.  It’s written in The Bible.  The only education children really need is taught in religious studies classes.  Apparently the only purpose of science and technology is to design and build better bombs and weapons systems in order to kill more "enemies of freedom".  Humans are superior beings (in the image of God), and therefore we have the right to dominate and use up the Earth as we see fit.  It doesn’t matter what happens to the Earth in the end because the Rapture is coming and it’ll all be destroyed anyway.  


Earthrise, 1968 December 24   taken by William Anders during Apollo 8

Is this picture worth the billions of dollars we paid for it?

The Apollo program cost $22.7 billion over 13 years in the 1960s-70s, which comes out to be about $136 billion total in today’s dollars.  Putting it into perspective, it is roughly equivalent to the cost of about 1 year, 4 months in Iraq, minus the dead bodies and permanently wounded and disabled veterans.

The current NASA budget is approximately $17 billion (equivalent to what we spend for about 2 months in Iraq).  People still complain about spending the money.  NASA’s entire budget is less than taxpayers pay to many private corporations. Just as a budget comparison, I found these figures:

KBR received a $22.5 billion contract for logistical support in Iraq including supplying gasoline, food services, and housing and various morale and recreation services.
 
Lockheed Martin received military contracts (in 2005) worth $19.4 billion for many military programs including  
F-16, F/A-22 jet fighter, F-117 stealth attack fighters, Hellfire and Javelin missiles, as well as various nuclear weapons. They also produce the PAC-3 Patriot missile, which cost $91 million per copy.

Boeing received military contracts (in 2005) worth $18.3 billion for  the F-22 Raptor, the Joint Strike Fighter/F-35, the F-18, F-15 fighter and Apache helicopters. Boeing also have contracts for many of the Pentagon’s missile defense programs, including guidance systems for the Minuteman and Peacekeeper missiles and munitions such as the Standoff Land Attack Missile-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER).  

Will the Moon Landing be humanity’s greatest achievement, never to be surpassed?  Or will it be humanity’s swan song?

According to the  Olduvai theory of Industrial Civilization,  we are headed for a Post-Industrial Stone Age.  Our entire civilization had been built on cheap, abundant energy: coal, natural gas, and especially petroleum.  Unsustainable. Once we find and consume the last reserves, there's no way we will be able to advance our civilization.  Space exploration will be a dream of the past. We might be able to manage something like early 18th Century civilization, with wind and solar power, and human labor. That's only if we haven’t destroyed the Earth’s ecosystems and biosphere with global warming.

If a colony of today’s humanity was discovered in a Petri dish, the report back from the lab would be - malignancy. Diagnosis of the patient – cancer.  The living Earth (Gaia) has a cancer.  Humanity on the Earth has metastasized out of control, and is spreading, and devouring everything in it’s path.  It is using up Earth’s resources and dumping toxic wastes everywhere.   It’s clogging and poisoning the Earth’s arterial waterways and oceans killing off the non-human sea creatures and cutting down the forest-lungs of the Earth at an alarming rate.  Now the Earth has a fever.  The prognosis for the planet-patient is not so good.

Your attention please.  This is your pilot.  We have now reached the evolutionary peak of our species’ journey into the Universe and will now begin our descent.  Please turn off all electronic devices and put your folding trays and seats into their fully upright position.  Fasten your seat belts and be prepared for a hard landing.  We might have just enough fuel left to make it back to the airport...

Poll

What did the Moon landings mean to you?

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| 43 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: NASA, Space, Moon (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 39 comments

  •  Remember that the internet was largely a result (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sj, Superpole, Anna M, JeffW

    of the technology developed during the time of the moon landing.  Certaintly the internet was a giant leap for mankind, now all we have to do is improve the content!

    •  Incorrect (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Anna M

      I'm sorry, but that's not really accurate. The Internet was originally ARPAnet, a project funded by DARPA (the military) to create a network that would make it possible to send data between cities/bases in a non-linear fashion. This way, if a city/base were nuked and annihilated, communications could still go through by "going around" the trouble spot.

      That's not to say that space exploration has not paid dividends, but the Internet is not one of them.

  •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    I agree it was ahigh point for man that day, to bad is was fleeting.  What NASA has become since it has dismantled Apollo is really pathetic.

    As one former astronaut stated regarding defunding the apollo program,he said ( paraphrasing here) "It's like building a rolls royce from the ground up, but then deciding not to use it because of the price of gas"

    Space programs would do this world a great deal of service. Humans could really begin to graps that we are all much more alike than different, We are all on his little beautiful rock together, and together we can prosper or perish.

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:05:59 AM PDT

    •  Potent weapon in the War on Terror. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Anna M

      The War on Terror is largely a war against religious fundamentalism.  Our exploits in space reap worldwide admiration and excellent press.  They offer the world a choice between science and exploration, or getting beaten by religion cops.  It beats the choice between bombings and beatings that we offer them now.

      Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

      by Yamaneko2 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:44:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wrote a somewhat related diary earlier today (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    July 20, 1969 - when dreams still seemed possible   I remain optimistic, or I could not go on.

    Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

    by teacherken on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:14:23 AM PDT

    •  It's hard to be optimistic these days (0+ / 0-)

      It seems like we keep getting punched in the stomach with one piece of bad news after another.  I'm so grateful to have lived to see the Moon Landing live when it happened. I feel bad for the young people now, not only for not seeing it, but for the mess (our mess) they are going to have to clean up.

  •  As the proprietor (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    LNK, Anna M, Organic American

    of ProgressiveHistorians, a community site dedicated to the intersection of history and politics, I would be honored if you would cross-post this excellent diary there.

  •  Excellent Diary ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    ...these next months may be the threshold of an irreversible descent, judging by the perhaps-justifiable proliferation of 'coup' diaries on this site.

    Or maybe, we will soon see a course correction.

    There is no cure in worry, but perhaps we will find one  in work?    Good luck.

    •   Good luck for all of us (0+ / 0-)

      Some climate scientists say that we have less than ten years to act on Global Warming; meanwhile everyone continues on like everything is completely normal.  When the power outages start and gas goes up to $5.00 a gallon, maybe someone will take notice.  Then they will say why didn't "someone" do something about it?

      Ah well, I'm getting old. I just hope they don't take my Social Security away.

  •  Robotic Space Travel (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, LNK, Anna M

    humans don't belong in space. there's nothing in space , or on the moon, etc., needed to support human life-- i.e. air, water, basic warmth, food, etc. it's bullshit to truck all that up there.

    the (thus far) two shuttle disasters, plus the earlier tragedies have proven that putting people into space is way too dangerous and expensive.

    what IS working and perhaps the giant leap meant by Armstrong is the exploration (and one day exploitation) of space/other planets via robotics.

    that is where the most progress has been made and where the real potential is as far as any sort of payback for the initial monetary and intellectual investment.

    "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

    by Superpole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:56:09 AM PDT

    •  Damn, you beat me to it! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Superpole, Anna M

      This is another edition of "what superpole said".
      I just want to pose a question: why isn't it technically feasible to mine asteroids robotically today? Asteroid mining is where the payoffs are---huge mineral wealth.
      As far as further space exploration, I wonder if the answer will be interstellar exploration via huge generation ships. Why interstellar and not interplanetary? Because there's nothing worth a human visit in the solar system, but we could reach other habitable planets  around other stars. So it would take centuries.. it ought to be technically feasible.

      •  Yep, Asteroid (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Anna M

        mining-- I've wondered the same thing myself.

        it always gets down to finding better/cheaper propulsion out of Earth's gravitational pull, i.e. you have to travel seven miles per second to do it.

        think about THAT for a moment.

        "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

        by Superpole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:27:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Robotics is good for getting the information (1+ / 0-)

      from the scientific point of view.  But there is something about human beings being out there - the adventure- maybe I've seen to much Firefly or Star Trek.

      •  Exactly, But It's Way Way Early Still for Us to (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Superpole, Anna M

        go given the "astronomical" distances and energy requirements etc.

        Europeans were getting to North America maybe a thousand or more years ago --some evidence hints at 10,000 and more-- but it wasn't meaningfully available to European humans to explore till 500 years ago.

        It required civilization to make considerable advances in maritime and some other technology.

        Science is advancing so fast at such levels today that our double planet neighborhood may well open up in the next generation or two. I'm not sure other than tourism what's a draw for earth orbit. People are talking asteroid capture or mining, and of course asteroid / comet collision defense is an interest.

        Mostly though this doesn't strike me as "exploration" that's very analogous to our historic discovery of new continental worlds.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:52:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, its not to earily (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Anna M

          we have all (or almost all - a little work here and there wouldn't hurt) the required technology to truly embrace manned colonization of space.  We are very close to having cheap access to space, the real key requirement to open up the heavens for space colonizaiton.  

          As for what might draw people to earth orbit - my guess is that the 2 biggest are zero-G manufacturing of products, and space based solar power.  There are others as well, but those have always been seen as the 2 biggest.

          Finally, I think its time to reconsider what we mean when we say exploration - the personal exploration that is pushing the New Space Race (that is a race between companies for the development of real manned spaceflight) is rapidly accelerating, and within 1-3 years, will allow for many people who want to to go into space.  And, yes, while its true that 5 minutes in space has been done plenty of times, it hasn't been done by me.  People have talked about the power of movign images, but I think I'll quote someone from Armadillo Aerospace

          "Imagine seeing a map of the US, full size"

    •  Actually, thats a load of crap (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Anna M

      Sorry to say, but it really is.  Many places in space have resources avaliable to them for people to live.  

      They do require technology to get at it, but that shouldn't surprize anyone.  That only means we are going to have to take our technology with us (big surprrize).

      Further more, its not about exploration - Its about colonization.  Yes, what we need to focus on is colonization.  As for the arguement that putting people in space is dangerous and expensive, well, yes, the shuttle is dangerous and expensive, but that doesn't mean manned spaceflight is dangerous and expensive.  The actual cost of spaceflight is not reflected in its current price.  You can see evidence of that in all the developments that are going on in space right now (I think I'll use this point to recommend people click on my sig line, to see what is happening in space, and why I think the cost for manned spaceflight will drop through the floor)

      We have started to colonize space already, and if we have any hope of actually seeing success in saving the planet, we'll have to include off planet resources in our planning.  Otherwise we are doomed

      •  Here's Your Load: −220 °F Polar Winte (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Anna M

        on Mars--

        Of all the planets, Mars' seasons are the most Earth-like, due to the similar tilts of the two planets' rotational axes. However, the lengths of the Martian seasons are about twice those of Earth's, as Mars’ greater distance from the sun leads to the Martian year being approximately two Earth years in length. Martian surface temperatures vary from lows of approximately −140 °C (−220 °F) during the polar winters to highs of up to 20 °C (70 °F) in summers.[38] The wide range in temperatures is due to the thin atmosphere which cannot store much solar heat, the low atmospheric pressure, and the low thermal inertia of Martian soil.

        let's say you want to colonize Mars:

        first question: WHY? why do humans have to be there?
        there's hardly a shortage of room on Earth-- in spite of the record number of people alive at this point in time.

        yes, there's water (ice) on Mars that can be harvested and used-- presumably to drink after treatment and filtration, and to water plants if you want food via hydroponics. but you'd need tons of machinery to make it happen. you'd need tons of infrastructure for dwellings, food growing facilities, etc. and you'd need tons of machinery to heat your dwellings and food growing facilities-- solar power? possibly.... looks dusty up there. how much sunlight is getting thru to the surface?

        never mind-- solar power is out:

        Mars also has the largest dust storms in the Solar System. These can vary from a storm over a small area, to gigantic storms that cover the entire planet. They tend to occur when Mars is closest to the Sun, and have been shown to increase the global temperature.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        so tell me how colonies of humans are going to survive for any length of time on Mars-- and how many as yet not invented rockets is it going to take to get the numerous tons of shit there to make it happen?

        "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

        by Superpole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:23:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The why and the how (0+ / 0-)

          lets start with the why - there is 3 parts
          There is the selfish - I myself, and at least a sizeable minority of people would like to go to mars, and live there.  I wouldn't rule out that there is a majority of people who'd like that oppertunity.

          Then there is the philosophical resources - We may not have run out of room here on earth, but we have run out of perspective.   We need more to see things from a different perspective.  We've used up most of the perspective that is avaliable to us on earth.

          In addition, there is also the fact that it provides planatary insurence - I don't view the idea of going extinct as a good thing, and if we stick to 1 planet, we are gurranteed to go extinct.  If we expand to multiple planets, we do have some level of insurence.

          Then of course, there is the practical reason - off planet resources - space based solar power, zero-g R&D and manufacturing, space based mineral resources - those are the big obvious ones, but there are others.  What we are talking about is the creation of a new industry, that won't pollute the earth.  In fact, it could help to deal with the earth's problems in the form of resources avaliable and also deal with things like CO2 production.

          Now as for the how - First, of course we are going to take some technology with us when we go there - but thats been true of any time humanity moves and colonizes a new place - when native americans arrived, they brought with them stone tools.  When the first Europeans arrived, they brought with them plows and the like.  But we only need to bring enough technology that is of the basics to allow for processing local resources.

          Now, as to the question of what resources - there is quite a bit on the martian surface (although we can look at other places too, like asteroids, and the moon, but since we are talking mars) - perhaps the biggest local resource is iron, but there is others, like silicon and so forth.  In addition, the soil composition is such that it should translate fairly well for growing planets.  And even in cases where its harder to grow plants (IE space stations) many countries import a large part of their food, and pay for it with exports.  And I've talked about the resources avaliable.

          As for power, actually, solar is hardly out.  While solar dynamic power systems do have a problem with dust and such, solar photovaltaic is not affected by dust storms (well, you might need to go out with a broom on occasion, but thats true of any place - not just limited to Mars).  But solar isn't the only option - Another possiblity is geothermal - there is evidence of the possiblity of liquid water within mars, which does open up the possiblities of geothermal power.  Another is wind power.  There are other options.  So power isn't a problem.

          A good chunk of the mars issue was discussed in Bob Zubrian's book The Case for Mars.  Of course, colonization of the moon will differ from Mars, and orbital colonies will differ from those 2, but we can find some commonality.  

          As for the transportation issue, well, thats long and involved, I admit.  But to learn all about that, I suggest you click on the sig line, to see the Space Revolution News, as well as look at some of my past diaries that tell how the price of going to space will go down sharply very very soon.

  •  nicely done. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    I have grown old enough to consider Spengler pretty much on target vis a vis "civilizations," and America reached her zenith with the Apollo program.

    Over the last several decades America lost its respect and awe for science and its potential for helping mankind. Rather than being mankind's best hope it became an instrument of commerce.

    Likley, the American post WWII culture of using scientific was an aberration that was granted respect because it helped Americans beat the Nazis and Japanese, but that respect has gradually been drained away by the green eye shaded accountants who bastardized science and transmuted it into technology.

    BTW, A shameless plug about July 20, 1969, the best day for all humanity, when we stood as a race of one and looked with open pride to the night sky and said, "we are there."

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    "There are many truths of which the full meaning cannot be realized until personal experience has brought it home." John Stuart Mill

    by kuvasz on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:03:59 AM PDT

  •  Other: Freak Out! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M, drchelo

    I remember it well. I was in college.

    My definite impression was that we had violated some kind of taboo. Opening Pandora's box. Scientific Curiosity, good, yes....But at what price? With what unintended consequence?

    "Giant leap for mankind" struck me as hollow platitude, expressing wishful thinking....much like inserting "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance.

    Seeing Earth as a beautiful blue planet, this was awe-inspiring.

    But later astronauts playing GOLF on the moon and yucking it up?

    The Space Race evolved directly out of Nazi rocket technology; it was all about war machinery and propaganda.

    You know, BTW, that the moon missions originally had zero geology included at first? Fortunately, crash course for astronauts and inclusion of science mission just in time.

    Men stepping on the moon was a bit too mind-blowing, alarming, freaky. Even psychedelic. I worried about their sanity. Like the pilot involved in A-bomb of Japan; he went 'nuts' later.

    Post WWII, USA and USSR replaced Europe as Big Boys on the Block. The rhetoric on both sides in those days was full of "Giant Leap" and "Glorious" hyperbole.
    What else did we have to show off except our bright and shiny advanced toys.

    I remember at the time also being acutely aware of the nerve of blowing that kind of money while millions on earth were starving and suffering terribly.

    What did I personally get out of the Moon Mission? Nose cone ceramics (my coffee pot!) and Tang, tangerine flavored powdered drink. That was fun. Now I wouldn't touch it.

    I also suffer the heart-breaking knowledge that we had a moment of raised consciousness about our precious planet; then, we blew it.

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:27:18 AM PDT

    •  The first and only scientist (0+ / 0-)

      of the Apollo program was Dr. Harrison Schmitt during Apollo 17.  He and Gene Cernan were the last two to go there.  

      I remember religious people in different parts of the world at the time thought that the "Gods" would be angry, and predicted all kinds of dire misfortunes for the Earth and the US.  Heh - maybe Bush is really a "curse" for our upsetting the Moon God?

    •  The shiny and bright toys can help save humanity (1+ / 0-)

      because the only way we are going to help save the planet (which will save humanity) is by starting to include the use of off planet resources.  Things like space based solar power, space mining, zero-G R&D and zero-G manufacturing - all of these things can help us deal with things like people starving, and enviromental damage.  

      The solution isn't to retreat from space - the solution is to embrace space.

      •  FerrisValyn: rocket fuel is toxic (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Anna M

        All the lettuce in Florida comes up contaminated already.....

        I'm thinking that if we humans can't manage to live with what the Earth provides, if we need to look to Space to save the Earth......

        Hey, I grew up on 1940s-50s science fiction and your proposal sounds too unhappy.............

        Something went wrong, is going wrong.

        Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

        by LNK on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:55:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, certain rocket fuel is toxc (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Anna M

          the fuel used by the SRBs is quite toxic, I don't deny that.  And the fuel used by the rocket family known as Titan (which is no longer used) could literally disolve your lungs.

          But the majority of rockets, in the US, are of one of 3 types - oil derivatives, alcohols, or hydrogen.  Now, obviously, hydrogen is the best, because it just produces water.  And where as hydrogen doesn't makes sense when it comes to the issue of cars, hydrogen is not uncommon for rockets.  

          Most of the alcohols are inherntly renewable.  Oil derivatives are admitadly harder, for obvious reason, but ther is a push for purusing clean rockets (like hydrogen and alcohols).

          Then there is more exotic fuels, used by the hybrid rockets.  For example, the fuel being used for the SpaceshipTwo is derived from tree rubber.  

          So, is there some fuels that are toxic?  Yes.  Are they the only fuels?  No, and we should (and I would say we are) moving away from those fuels.  

          As for the idea that we can save earth without space, well, it was always somewhat naive IMHO, and I've talked about it somewhat here, and also here.  The concept of sustainability has always been a myth - we are a life form based on expansion, but we can do so in a reasonable manner, but only by embracing space resources.  

          As for sounding like science fiction, well, once upon a time the internet was science fiction.  And most of the developments within spaceflight sound like science fiction.  

          As for why it hasn't happened, well, IMHO, it was a combination of greed, overselling the shuttle, and not doing the required development for the basic infrastructure, and spent a good chunk of that money on the stunt that was Apollo (it won't remain a stunt, but at the time, it was a stunt).

          With the new space race that is happening (and no, I am not talking about China, or Nasa - I am talking about private spaceflight) its different this time, because we can't afford to ignore things like basic infrastructure, and the like.

          •  I should clarify (0+ / 0-)

            As for the idea that we can save earth without space, well, it was always somewhat naive IMHO

            What I mean is that a) I dont' believe we realized how difficult it was going to be to save earth (and thats true acrossed the board) and b) its naive to think that we can solve earth's problems without utilizing off planet resources.

  •  Optimist or not? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    Optimists are usually wrong. We depressives turn out to be right more frequently.

    Despair, however, IS NOT AN OPTION!

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:29:24 AM PDT

  •  He Was Wrong--My Dad Was NASA Manned Space (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    and I regarded Armstrong as being wrong at the time. The line in fact is so corny I thought it was issued to him. There weren't any thinktanks at the time, remember.

    The first two phases Mercury and Gemini flew on weapons let's not forget. Redstone, Atlas and Titan. Lots of our early attempts fizzled or blew up, and these missions had an important side effect of debugging and demonstrating the kind of hardware that was mostly loaded and pointed at the Soviets.

    One of the first Gemini missions was the shortest mission ever flown, approximately 6" in 2 seconds, as a timing / software glitch shut the motors down about one hands width off the pad.

    Once we saw the Russians were basically out of it, we cancelled the science dominated later missions, only once landing a geologist. Many people thought we squandered a lot of opportunity by sending 6 test pilot crews first (one aborted, 13).

    The moon landing remains humanity's finest public demonstration of technology and progress.

    But I think the New Deal / Marshall Plan / GI Bill suite was astronomically greater as humanity's most noble exercise however.

    As to those primitive tribal customs. They're rising around the world because they are more adaptive for the people than enlightenment and rationalism.

    We all recognize that society needed a certain threshold level of advanced economy and technology before the Enlightenment could happen. The left does not yet grasp that there's an upper boundary beyond which the world surpasses the ability of the individual to understand and influence, and Enlightenment comes to a close.

    There is, it has, and the right has understood this for half a lifetime. That's why at all levels in all directions in all endeavors, morons triumph and wisdom falters. The world does in fact work the way the conservatives believe it does. (Though they replace their claims and talk like Democrats around each election time.)

    Fundamentalism and superstition are the wave of the future unless rationalism can find a way to stop authoritarianism and adopt new systems of government that will restore democracy not just to government but also to economy and culture.

    There are unimaginably wonderful days ahead for humanity but they don't necessarily include our inherited values unless we find ways to preserve them that don't exist or are presently forbidden under our system.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:40:00 AM PDT

  •  Nice diary, Anna M (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anna M

    I think the answer is that what has happened is that things have changed because things have fragmented in America.  People (and I think this is espcially true for people who were either young during the 60s, or involved in the 60s movements) viewed people as coming together, in one great march.  The same is true of Nasa.  

    But into the 70s, and 80s America (and the liberal movement, and the space movement) has fragmented, and has moved towards "I want a piece of it as well"

    Thats why I think the development of the internet, and of private space has had substantially changed things (or in the case of private space, will change) because it means the average person will actually get to lead and do things, and have there say.  

    Anyway, my 2 cents.

    BTW, I think I've seen you around SRWN, Anna M, haven't I?  If not, check them out - you can see how things are moving forward for space.

    BTW, that applies to everyone - the fullfilment of the dream promised by space colonization is very close, and to see whats happening, click my sig line, to learn about it.

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