Daily Kos

Socialized medicine - an anecdotal view

Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:05:12 AM PDT

Tuesday's video diary by uniongal Michael Moore Rocked on Hardball!!! included a question by the Hardball interviewer, which, roughly paraphrased, went something like this:

When a rightwing dictator from a third world country, someone who has huge amounts of money that he's bilked from his country's people over the years, finds himself sick, where does he choose to go for treatment?  The U.S., right?

I believe this was supposed to be an argument in favor of the U.S. system.  But since the average person doesn't have unlimited funds to draw from, I thought I could offer a few comparisons, based on my real life experience with a few different systems.

I live in Japan, and my family is on the National Health.  Today I had a dental visit in which the dentist replaced an old metal filling with a porcelain one.  I have the bill in front of me: the total amount was 6,460  yen(roughly $54); the out of pocket cost to me was 1,940 yen (roughly $16).  The dentist is reimbursed for the rest.   In spite of what you may have heard about dental care in countries that are on this system, the visit was as pleasant as anything can be that involves drilling.  The office staff were polite and friendly; the office itself is bright and sunny, with large windows.  The waiting room is decorated with photos of the smiling faces of all the patients who are children - and even has some drawings they made themselves.  One of the happy children was there today and went running excitedly to the chair for his checkup.  The actual work starts with a before photo so that the patient can see what is going to happen.  There was plenty of anesthesia so I had no pain.  The staff thoughtfully covers my eyes with a towel while they are drilling - which actually makes me feel relaxed, if you can believe that.   At the end an after photo shows the completed product!

I can't think of any significant differences between the care I have received here and care I got in the States.  I have to make an appointment, and occasionally they might run a few minutes late in calling me in - but doesn't that happen in the States too?  The only real difference I can think of is that the dentist will only do one tooth per visit, rarely he will do two if the problem is related in some way.  They like to be sure one problem is completely taken care of before they tackle the next one.

I've been to dentists in Australia and Ireland as well.  I can't recall any significant difference that I found at the time, except the Irish dentist was old and crotchety.  But I've run into that in the States too!

So much for dentistry... How about a routine exam?  In Australia I found getting a check-up at the gynecologist no different from the same exam in the States - except for the bill at the end.  As I recall in those days, I was expected to fork over around $20 Australian along with my medical card at the end of a visit.    Here in Japan a lot of routine medical check-ups are handled at clinics.   For example, when my son was little, we found that for routine vaccinations or childhood complaints there are regularly scheduled clinic hours at local hospitals.  You just show up at the appointed time and wait your turn.  I never recall the waits for these visits with the doctor taking any longer than the wait for a scheduled appointment back in the States.    Ireland had a kind of combination of these two systems.  If it was routine, as a vaccination or a baby checkup, there was usually a clinic that covered it.  If you had something that needed attention right away, you were supposed to go to your family doctor first so that he or she could decide what your next step was.  In all these cases, the charge was quite minimal.

Here in Japan I did pay 45000 yen (about $375) for a complete physical last year.  We felt the money was worth it.  After all I would pay that much for a visit to the ob-gyn in the States plus the separate cost of the mammogram.  For that money here, I got a complete physical including both those things as well as blood work, lung tests, heart test with ekg, some horrible thing that included drinking barium so they could look at my innards, ultrasound of liver, x-ray of lungs, dietary consultation based on my weight and blood work, and no doubt some other things I can't think of now.   When you sign up for the physical, you are assigned a day and time.  You arrive ten minutes early and pay (form has been filled out earlier).  They have bar codes for everything, so that your test results can't get mixed up with anyone else's.  Women's names are called out in groups of ten (did I mention they were handling a couple hundred people that day?); you are assigned pajamas and a locker for your clothes.  Then you start moving through the system.  They keep everyone moving until the whole group down to the last person has completed the dietary consultation.  This takes from around 8:30 a.m. to about 1 p.m.  How could I complain?  In the States I would give up a morning each for the ob-gyn exam and the mammogram.  And I wouldn't get the cholesterol results for a couple of weeks.

Some other differences... a man did the mammogram!  No, that really wasn't weird... he was very professional.   When I got the results back on that, I had a spot that needed further examination.  If that had happened to me in the States, I would have been terrified, fearing the worst and worrying that it would bankrupt the family.  Here, to tell the truth, I didn't lose one minute's sleep worrying about the way things would turn out.  And it was nothing to worry about either, just a cyst.  To me, that was the biggest difference.  It's amazing how little worry can be attached to health problems if you know: a/ someone is going to help you and b/ they are not going to bankrupt your family.  That gives you a peace of mind you can't believe if you haven't experienced it.

This diary has already gone on way too long, so thanks for bearing with me.  I was going to describe dealing with an actual illness/surgery and hospital stay in Japan.  But I will limit my surgery story a little to get to the main points:  My husband needed elective, but recommended surgery.  We agreed he should go ahead with it.  The surgeon offered a day he would be available.  We pointed out that would clash with our vacation to Hawaii.  He called over his nurse and the bent their heads together, and after some discussion agreed to operate on him the following week!  (I know you always hear how you have to wait six months for elective surgery, but this is true.)  

For the surgery, you are required to go in a day early  to be monitored and to practice some breathing exercises (that is supposed to help with the general anesthesia).  Basically he was going to be in for one week.  This is surgery where you go home the same day in the U.S.  Another big difference: he was in a ward that held six men.  His section was curtained off, and he had a private tv with headphones, but it was small.  However, there were plenty of places he could go and relax when the nurses and/or doctors didn't need him.  

The staff and treatment he received were absolutely excellent.  (I can't see how he would have gotten better care even if he were a right-wing dictator with bags of money at his disposal.  He just would have had a bigger room. )  One more important point:  we had one form to fill out - just one - before he entered the hospital.  When the doctor gave him permission to go home, I went to the front office to pay.  Now remember he had a week's stay in the hospital; in addition he had a full day of tests  to determine he needed surgery; the day of the surgery he had one nurse assigned to him all day (she was there before I arrived in the morning and still there when I went home that night); an anesthesiologist, a surgeon, and other staff members looking after him.  He spent a full day in recovery after the surgery before being returned to his room.  All meals were included.  Our cost for all of this after National Health covered its share: 100,000 yen (around $835).  No forms to fill out.  No bureaucrats to argue with.  I paid that and we went home.

Those are a few of my experiences with national health.  We are just an ordinary family with no special problems. Maybe other people on National Health systems have stories they would like to share?

Tags: health care, japan, australia (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 29 comments

  •  Socialized medicine (9+ / 0-)

    I do not object to the word "socialized."  It just means we pay for it with our taxes.  I think it is better than calling it free health care.  After all, it is never free; it has to be paid for somehow.

    •  But the term was (4+ / 0-)

      introduced by the Rethugs because of the negative connotations in this country. Universal health care, as in Britain is a much better expression even though the word free doesn't appear it is implied.

      Another expression we should start using is 'Free at the point of delivery' as this means that profit could be made within the system but the end user (patient) would not have to pay. This may offend the purists but could bump the numbers in favor even higher and really marginalize the selfish, sociopathick f*^wits who oppose it.

      •  Right. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, stevej

        Universal health care is a good term too.

      •  Why don't we just call it "Health Care for All" (5+ / 0-)

        As can be seen in Michael Moore's movie "Sicko," the term "socialized medicine" was actually invented by the AMA in the 1950s which was against anything that might cut into a Dr.'s profits. Again, as Moore's movie shows, the irony is that British Dr.s working under a socialist system do quite well in terms of income and lifestyle. British society further rewards good Dr.s who can demonstrate that they have gotten their patients to stop smoking etc.

        It's all a question of a society's values. In our country the rich and big corporations have so much unchecked power that their amoral values dominate our culture (see the documentary "The Corporation" if you haven't already).

        Al Ronzoni, Jr.
        truedemocracyjournal,blogspot.com

        •  I don't care what they call it... (0+ / 0-)

          ...as long as we get it.  We can call it the "freedom plan" declaring "war on illness" for all I care.  As long as we get non-insurance-based universal health care, I don't care if the Rethugs design the card with a screaming eagle and a flag.

          In TX-32, track the voting record of Pete Sessions at SessionsWatch.

          by CoolOnion on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 07:44:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ummmm.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bluebrain

      My Canadian health care IS free.  As in, I don't pay.  Even the minimal charges the diarist reported in Japan.  I've had multiple surgeries requiring prosthetics, physical therapy, home nurses, the works; the only thing I've ever had to pay for was a rental charge for my personal TV in my large hospital room.

      That's the definition of 'free'.  That's what the word means.  You don't pay.

      As for taxes, the US already spends more tax dollars per capita on health care then Canada.  And you don't have free health care.

      Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

      by Kingsmeg on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 07:19:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If your taxes pay for it, (0+ / 0-)

        it's not free.  You still pay for it.  Americans get to use their tax dollars to pay for things like the Iraq War and nuclear bombs.  These things aren't free either.  With nuclear bombs, we can only hope they are like everything else the GOP is responsible for - broken.  I hope we never have to find out that they work after all.  

        Call me a looney left wing liberal, but I'd rather see my tax dollars go for health care.  I don't see what use the military industrial complex is, and I think it makes more sense to use tax money for things people can use.

        Frankly, now that you have explained how the Canadian system works, I'm astonished that Canada allows Americans to use their system at all.  If it's anyone who's getting health care for free, it's people who use the system without paying the taxes for it.

  •  I am watching the Washington Journal (6+ / 0-)

    and Rep. Camp{R. from MI.} talking about health care for children. Someone called in and asked if he recieved Socialized medicine. He stated he got Blue Cross and the people of this Country paid for it. The man said,"So you recieve Social. medicine and you sir are a hippocrit." Camp didn't know what to say next. Every call so far has been against what he is saying. "Sicko" is making a difference.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:24:37 AM PDT

    •  Great! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      highacidity, historys mysteries

      I'm glad people have been paying attention to Sicko.

      It seems like health care for children would be a good first step towards introducing Universal Health Care in the U.S.  They could just add them in to Medicare for starters, couldn't they?

    •  Blue Cross (3+ / 0-)

      Don't you wonder if BC/BS doesn't have a full-time employee just to parse service refusals to make sure that members of Congress and their families are never denied a penny of coverage?

      You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

      by Clem Yeobright on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:54:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Blue cross and 'self insurance' versus private. (3+ / 0-)

        There is a huge difference between the various Blue Cross plans.

        For government employees, e.g. the U.S. and University of California (I have experience there), Blue Cross does NOT take on the financial underwriting risk.

        That means, they do not profit from vexatious delays of paperwork and denials.  The agencies contracting them eventually pay for the actual medical care delivered with BC taking a cut.  (i.e. socialized medicine)

        As a result, there is little problem from Blue Cross with getting the right services.

        When Blue Cross takes on actual financial risk---i.e. being an insurance company and not a claims administrator---they act completely differently.   Money they pay out is money they don't get to keep.

        Why do you think they need to know your group ID number?

        Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

        by mbkennel on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 06:56:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Socialized Medicine = GOP loaded term (7+ / 0-)

    to instantly trigger 'oh this is communism' which Americans abhor.

    It and hundreds of other corporatist/GOP memes are used to trigger knee jerk reactions from Americans, and its all about manipulation.

    I could care less that a dictator in Africa runs to the U.S. for medical care as an argument that our health care is superior.

    Congress has free health care and we don't hear them complaining about the quality of the care given.  

    The overall issue is this:  Corporate run America does NOT want citizens to have entitlements of any kind--medical care, college education entitlements, social security, etc.  This has been an issue since FDR imposed these programs and others (WPA, NRA, rural electrification).  Then, Corporate America sought to organize a coup against FDR, because they were so against his plans.

    So, we just need to realize the problem: Corporate America does not want citizens to have any entitlements at all, period.  The end.

    As in FDR's time, when corporations hired goon squads to beat up workers and oppose unions, today, corporations are no more our friends than at that time.  We must remember who we are dealing with---its not just Bush/Cheney but a huge corporate machine.  It's not socialist to defend ourselves against capitalist fundamentalism.

    •  Yes, it's a loaded term... (3+ / 0-)

      because God knows we had to fight the Cold War because communists had things like gulags, torture, fixed elections, suppression of the rights to free speech and religion....  Thank goodness we don't have any of those problems!

    •  What if it is "socialist" to defend yourself agai (4+ / 0-)

      nst the increasing excesses of capitalism in the U.S. and elsewhere? From what end of the political spectrum do you think child labor laws, worker's comp, minimum wage etc came from? It was the socialist Labor Party in Great Britain that created the National Health Service and socialist parties all over Europe that created a better quality of life for their citizens - far better than overworked, underpaid, sheeplike Americans. There is such a thing as democratic socialism you know - i.e. a socialism that believes that it must persuade people at the ballot box rather than by conducting a revolution.

    •  Dictators come to the US for care (3+ / 0-)

      because they can be sure that with enough money, they can find plenty of doctors and anesthesiologists who will not have an episode of conscience and accidentally bump the anesthesia or clamp the oxygen tube while reciting the hippocratic oath in their head.

      The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

      by NCrefugee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 06:38:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Medicare is socialized medicine. (0+ / 0-)

      2008 Debate:

      Newt McRomliani:   Them wicked democrat plans are nothing but socialized medicine!!

      Democratic candidate:  I'm glad you made your position clear.  But just to get your message out, I'd like you to tell the audience exactly what you mean.  I'll even give up my time, just repeat after me, 'I don't believe in socialized medicine.  That's why when I'm elected I promise to eliminate that socialized medicine known as Medicare and put everybody on private insurance that the government will not regulate or pay for.  I'm sure the American people as eager for the opportunity to wreck socialized medicine like I am.'

      Newt McRomliani: .................

      Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

      by mbkennel on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 06:49:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now that's a toughie... (5+ / 0-)

    When a rightwing dictator from a third world country, someone who has huge amounts of money that he's bilked from his country's people over the years, finds himself sick, where does he choose to go for treatment?  The U.S., right?

    After all, there aren't that many right-wing dictators who have socialized medicine in their country to begin with.

    The one exception I can recall is Charles de Gaulle, right-wing dictator of France. Who, when he developed a prostrate problem, of course got his dick tated in Paris.

    When the surgeon came in after the operation, De Gaulle  blurted out: "You've saved me! Your fame is assured!" (He actually talked like that). The surgeon smiled sweetly and said: "Mon General, just think of my fame if I hadn't!"

    Founder and CFO, The Giddiyap Society.

    by Trotsky the Horse on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:41:25 AM PDT

    •  Welcome to DailyKos, Trotsky! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Miss Jones

      A 'newbie' starting off with a bang!

      I look forward to reading your comments and your diaries. I hope you find it congenial to be among us and stay a long long time.

      You made me laugh. Welcome indeed!

      You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

      by Clem Yeobright on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 06:00:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's good to read about a positive experience (2+ / 0-)

    here which explains how a national system works.

    I am curious though about all those extra costs.  Do people with low incomes have to pay as well, and do they still get treatment if they don't have the funds?

    Socialized medicine in Canada is a little more compassionate. No money -- no matter. You ARE ABLE to pay for some extras -- I have fancier optical implants than what is offered on the provincial plan, and I can use my private insurance to pay for a private room in the hospital, but I have never had to watch my kids suffer because they needed care and I couldn't afford it. Or do I know any seniors who must choose between medicine or food.

    •  And I bet you can change jobs (5+ / 0-)

      without having to factor in the risks of allowing 'insurance' to lapse, can't you?

      You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

      by Clem Yeobright on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 06:02:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jobs have nothing to do with health care (2+ / 0-)

        only private insurance for extras. For example, my husband is retired and one of his retirement perqs is a drug plan that has 100% coverage.  We pay nothing for that. Generally, the provincial plan for drug benefits is geared to income.

        Your health care never lapses if you move from province to province either.  You are covered by the old plan until the new one kicks in. It used to be that you often had to pay and be reimbursed but I think for the most part, that is no longer the case.

    •  Good question (3+ / 0-)

      And the short answer is I don't know... Although I can't imagine anyone getting turned away here.  It just doesn't work like that.  Money is about the last thing that comes up when you go to the doctor.  When you go to a hospital or clinic, you get issued a card that you use every time you go there, so I suppose they could check and see if you hadn't paid from before.  

      The way it works for us is that they cover a percentage of the costs and we pay the rest.  We pay a monthly fee into the National Service in order to be covered.  If we didn't want to be covered in this way, we would have to prove that we had some alternate insurance system.

      Japan is known for being an expensive country and it is.  But it is also more equitable.  There are some homeless people in the major cities.  There are some rich people too.  But the vast majority of people seem to live on roughly similar standards of living.  Unless someone runs into some big debt troubles (this started happening with some frequency in the 90s), I think the average person can pretty much cover the basics.

      So the best answer I can come up with is that while we do pay a percentage of costs here, I believe that if someone couldn't pay, other arrangements would be made.  The cost doesn't seem to be an issue when deciding if a patient needs care or not.

      •  I expect too that hospitals are (2+ / 0-)

        publicly owned?

        One of the things that I see is a real barrier to universal health care in the US is that hospitals are privately owned for profit businesses. I think once that wall is breached, then the rest will follow.  

        •  Not necessarily (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          historys mysteries, Aunt Arctic

          There are big public hospitals, but there are small private hospitals, or clinics, too.   The private hospitals are smaller and usually run by an experienced or well-known doctor.  All my experience is with the public hospitals, so maybe I shouldn't comment on the private ones, but I believe the private doctors still get reimbursed in the same way if the patient is in the national health scheme.

          •  We have a few of those private clinics too, (0+ / 0-)

            where they do cosmetic surgery, for example.

            Our doctors have billing numbers and they use those to bill the provincial system for services.They only get paid the amount that the medical association has negotiated for whatever the procedure is. Charging more is frowned on, but there are always ways to get around it. The truth is that you are just as likely to get the very best leading edge doctor if you have a large university hospital available to you, so there isn't always a need to go to a private clinic.

            And despite some of the drivel I have heard in the US media, our doctors (as no doubt in Japan) are every bit as good (if not better) and as highly trained as American ones.

            •  That's interesting (1+ / 0-)

              The system with private clinics sounds similar.

              And I think you are right about the drivel.  Traveling around over the years, I think I have seen doctors in about six different countries.  I've never gotten the impression there is some huge difference in training.    I wonder if this attitude is supposed to make us feel as they we get more from the U.S. system because we pay more?

    •  DrSteveB had a blurb (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Miss Jones, historys mysteries

      about how the Japanese system works in a diary about how other countries handle healthcare. The point: there's no single model, and all of them seem to work better than ours! Here's his summary of how income factors into the Japanese system:

      The local governments act as insurers, and premiums are calculated on the basis of income, the number of individuals in the insured household, and assets.

      Here's a link to the diary. It's a good read.

      How they do Universal Health Care in other countries

      •  I remember that diary - it was good! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        historys mysteries

        Thanks for posting the link to it.  I meant to comment on it way back then... but it's taken until today for me to finally get around to writing my thoughts on the issue.

      •  I have read Dr SteveB's commentary on Canada, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        historys mysteries

        I think there are a number of misleading things there, particularly in regards to how the system developed, but I can only comment as a user rather than as a professional.

        The Canada Health Act is an umbrella which sets out the universal nature of health care. but the Constitution is more than specific about who is responsible for carrying out the provisions, and it ISN'T the national government, which is why there are so many variances. There are also real differences in how the users pay through taxes and premiums, but what he doesn't note is that the sheer size of the country and the way the population is spread out changes the delivery system.  We all don't have the same access, and that is one of the reasons for the wait times that you all hear about. It is also why the system has developed gradually -- you have to get a lot of legislatures to agree with something before it can happen.

        The difference really though is attitude, and political will. There isn't one politician in this country - left, right, centrist, municipal, provincial or national who would even think about tinkering with this system except to make it better.  Canadians consider their health care system sacrosanct. A candidate like the one up thread would simply not be elected.  I seriously doubt he'd have even enjoyed a party nomination.

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