Daily Kos

Impeachment - does it portend nuclear electoral failure?

Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:44:38 PM PDT

Hi - the recent talk about impeachment has gotten to me again.  Two ideas in particular I want to address, which are common in arguments opposing impeachment. I call them "misperceptions" because I don't think they are correct, yet they influence a lot of people's thinking on the subject, including, apparently, Nancy Pelosi's (whom I have a lot of respect for).

(FYI - I favor impeachment for Bush and the rest. In fact, we had a campaign that led our village board to pass a resolution on it. It was fun.)

And onto the diary ....

The first misperception concerns the nature of impeachment. It is the idea that impeachment is some kind of legal coup d'etat, a wrenching strike at the state. Disruptive to the normal functioning of government, impeachment is popular only among extremists, ideologues, and other unrealistic sorts. This position has a corollary, that if an impeachment does not lead to removal of the president,  its advocates will pay a high price. In other words, "if you strike at a king you must kill him"  or you get your own head chopped off.

The reference to impeachment as a nuclear political act represents this thinking. And the commonly heard objection that "we don't have the votes in the Senate so let's drop it" represents the related view  that anything besides a 2/3 senate vote and removal is a "failure" and worse than no impeachment at all.

I don't buy it, at least not if impeachment is pursued with good intentions, that is, what's best for the country. I believe the framers viewed impeachment as something necessary, something that would happen from time to time without completely disrupting everything. James Madison  and others spoke about impeachment as a deterrent to many potential presidential abuses of power, such as firing quality officers for political reasons and use of pardon power to obstruct justice in cases where the president may be involved in a crime. I do not think they would have done so had they thought impeachment would have "nuclear" effects on the U.S. government.

Barbara Jordan, member of the House Judiciary Committee in 1974, eloquently addressed the argument that anything short of removal is a failure:

It is wrong, I suggest, it is a misreading of the Constitution, for any member here to assert that for a member to vote for an article of impeachment means that that member must be convinced that the President should be removed from office.

The Constitution doesn't say that.  The powers relating to impeachment are an essential check in the hands of this body, the legislature, against and upon the encroachment of the Executive.  In establishing the division between the two branches of the legislature, the House and the Senate, assigning to the one the right to accuse and to the other the right to judge, the framers of this Constitution were very astute.  They did not make the accusers and the judges the same person.

She would never have agreed with the proposition advanced in many quarters, even apparently from Nancy Pelosi, that one has to line up the votes in the Senate before the House Judiciary Committee goes forward.

There is an element of "the perfect being the enemy of good" in this thinking. Yes, it would be nice to have the votes in the Senate to remove Bush, but it does not follow that, since the votes are likely not there, the House must avoid impeachment altogether. Not at all. On the contrary, any step toward impeachment is overall a positive, since it brings some accountability to the president. Just to have his crimes listed in public is a step forward from where we are now. More people are aware of Clinton's "misdeeds" than would be had the GOP not decided to impeach. That action by the GOP - cynical as it was - led to a lot of public discussion of what is an impeachable offense, whether infidelity matters, etc. Imagine the result of a justifiable impeachment!

The perfectionist thinking leads to the conclusion that Congress should not seriously call Bush to account. That to me is much worse than an inability to gain 2/3 of the Senate. Actually, the term "failed impeachment" is misleading. Since impeachment is only the indictment, it can only fail if it is done poorly. What people mean when they say "failed impeachment" is something else - no conviction. But a successful impeachment - one that is thorough and well-grounded - may well not lead to conviction.

Another positive of the House moving forward with impeachment is that it would mean the House truly saw itself as an independent, co-equal branch of government.

The second misperception I would like to address is the idea that the Republicans paid a huge price at the polls for impeaching Clinton. People holding this view cite the 1998 off-year elections, saying they were abnormal in that the GOP did not make gains. I say the 1998 election results do not support that view.

How big was this GOP loss in 1998? According to Wikipedia, the GOP maintained its 55-45 Senate advantage, while going from 226-208 in the House to 223-211. It was a small loss, but definitely a departure from the pattern.

The pattern the "electoral impeachment punishment advocates" refer to is well-documented. In Truman's last off-year election, the GOP gained 28 House seats. In 1958 (Eisenhower), The Dems gained a whopping 53 House and 16 Senate seats. And in 1986 (Reagan) the Dems gained 5 in the House and 8 in the Senate.

But two differences between these presidents and Clinton explain why the 1998 election went the other way.

Unlike Clinton, all these presidents were less popular toward the end of their terms. Clinton, on the other hand, reached his popularity nadir in time for the first off-year election, in 1994. Here is a plot of Clinton's approval, from Political Arithmetik (approval is on the left axis, and time is on the bottom - each blue vertical bar roughly represents two years):

Not surprisingly, the Democrats go destroyed in 1994. That brings us to the other difference between Clinton and the rest. Under Clinton, the opposition made big gains (which they kept) before the second off-year election. By 1998, the Dems had nowhere to go but up.

I believe it is these two factors - Clinton's rising popularity over the course of his tenure, and the anomalous first-term off-year losses - that made 1998 look like it did in comparison to previous examples. It is not necessary to invoke impeachment to explain it.

Well, that's all for now. Take care, you all, and thanks for reading.

Tags: impeachment (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 30 comments

  •  Excellent summation! (9+ / 0-)

    If Speaker Pelosi still insists that Impeachment remain "off the table," then she is a total fool, and should be held to the level of disgust as Bush, Cheney & Co. (hopefully, that is not the case).

  •  As someone who favors impeachment ... (9+ / 0-)

    ...I have always tried to make clear that I agree with those progressives who oppose it (and they are legion) that there are serious political risks to this approach, that is, a serious risk that such a move will energize a demoralized GOP base, that Democrats could lose in 2008, or that a landslide victory could be weakened, and that impeachment proceedings will take everything else "off the table," including the effort to get us out of Iraq.

    But I don't agree when they say that any of these predictions are certain. If they were certain, I might reluctantly take a different stance. In my view, however, they are only risks, unproven risks, and as such, the potential benefits of impeaching and potential risks of not impeaching outweigh those unproven risks.

    Good Diary.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:13:50 PM PDT

    •  what can be done to minimize the risks? (0+ / 0-)

      what would you recommend?

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:45:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  off the table ! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mightymouse

      Iraq even with impeachment proceeding's going on, is much to big a SNAFU to continue.
      The Generals are not going to sit by in Iraq (and the Pentagon) and allow themselves and their troops to be 'Stalingraded'.
      I could see them strategicaly withdrawing to more safer areas near the coast or Jordan, if things got really really nasty in Iraq.
      What American General would let his command of how many thousands be encircled like Dien Bien Phu etc, the American public would wake up and get rather mad.

      Morality is the single most important issue.

      by Ferrofluid on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:30:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well done. (3+ / 0-)

    You've crystallized the vaguenesses and set them out for all to see and evaluate.

    Thank you.

    Follow the money. It's getting away.

    by bablhous on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:22:05 PM PDT

  •  Dems... (5+ / 0-)

    are looking at how impeachment hurt rethugs during the Clinton witchhunt.

    Unfortunately, the boobs that advise them appear to be saying "don't give Shrub a petard upon which to hoist us."

    Frankly, the cowardice shown by Dems by not impeaching this most impeachable of presidents is something I'm more than tired of.  I'd call my representative, but the schmuck resigned (Marty Meehan).

  •  I like these arguments (3+ / 0-)

    along with Kagro's relating to "you gotta try it to know" if it's gonna work - I think America is hoping for Dems to "save" us from these Republicans before the whole government unravels...

  •  Eh. (0+ / 0-)

    If the next president is Romney or Giuliani, the country will have ratified the Bush presidency and will simply be living under elected dictators and permanent one party rule.

    Since you can't guarantee there won't be serious political fallout, you're asking us to gamble with the very future of the country.  Because I can guarantee that impeachment wouldn't remove Bush AND Cheney, what's the payoff?  Why should I put a lot of time and effort into the odds that there would be a Giuliani or Romney elected, if there's not a huge payoff?  

    Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

    by Inland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:38:28 PM PDT

    •  links (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mightymouse, MyBrainWorks, rjones2818

      Because I can guarantee that impeachment wouldn't remove Bush AND Cheney, what's the payoff?

      Guarantee it?

      •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        buhdydharma

        I don't think that's controversial.  There would have to be a change from the current position of the republican senators.  The FP article today on the senators striking a pose is indicative that they still see themselves as foot soldiers for Bush.  

        Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

        by Inland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:06:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lol (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mightymouse

          Guaranteeing things in politics is not controversial?

          And things never change?

          Did anything change over the last week or so?

          The country and the political scene hasn't changed significantly in the last week?

          That was the absolute last Bush scandal until he leaves office and there is NO chance that investigations will turn up any evidence?

          NONE of the strings of evidence and scandal will bear ANY actionable fruit?

          You guarantee all that?

          •  are you talking about removal? (0+ / 0-)

            Is that the actionable fruit?  Yes. I'll let you know if things change.  

            I can't guarantee that bush and cheney won't be caught strangling hoboes down at the railyard, but we aren't talking about impeachment proceedings beginning in September, but now, and not maybe, but for sure.

            Between the outside chance of removal and the guesswork at no political repercussions, it's pretty much just throwing the ball up in the air and hoping it doesn't come down on in the hands of a player on the other team.  What's the point, if we can win without that play?  

            Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

            by Inland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:05:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  more like sailors (0+ / 0-)

          who will go down with their captain and his (rat infested) ship.
          Nobody, absolutely nobody that I talk to, likes GWB or his coven.
          You never hear one good word about GWB or his policies, talking to blue collar people (of which I am one), even silence is telling.
          I think a lot of people are just dumbstruck and just cant believe how far we have fallen under GWB.

          Morality is the single most important issue.

          by Ferrofluid on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:42:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Whoa there pardner... (4+ / 0-)

      making a lot of assumptions on the American people's mood aren't you?
      Maybe we should be pressuring the big pollsters to out and out ask the public, "Should George Bush and Dick Cheney be Impeached and Removed from Office of President and Vice-President?"
      Until that blunt question is actually asked, w/o qualifiers, then no one can really go either way on the subject of whether it has support or not.

      The surge worked huh? Really? Are the American soldiers out of Iraq? Then the surge FAILED!

      by RElland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:58:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think I'm making any assumptions (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mightymouse

        about the public mood.  I'm noting that nobody is able to say there won't be a fallout from an impeachment attempt, that it won't bring about a ratification of Bush in the election by bringing us a Giuliani or Romney.  

        The only thing that I'm assuming about the support for impeachment is that there is zero among republican senators, so removal will fail.

        Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

        by Inland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:09:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So therefore let us never attempt it? (0+ / 0-)

          In that case why don't we start suggesting a new amendment to arbrogate that part of the constitution?
          If it's never going to be used, why waste the time even looking at the constitution. Clearly, we might as well just burn the damn thing and be done with it.
          After all... to protect it, we need the votes.
          And since we don't have the votes, why keep it around?
          Seriously, what the fucking good is a constitution if you don't have the 'votes' to protect it?

          The surge worked huh? Really? Are the American soldiers out of Iraq? Then the surge FAILED!

          by RElland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:10:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Atheinostic

      Since you can't guarantee there won't be serious political fallout, you're asking us to gamble with the very future of the country

      Guarantee?? I can't even guarantee that I will get to work without being run over.

      Kind of a high bar you set there.

      Because I can guarantee that impeachment wouldn't remove Bush AND Cheney, what's the payoff?

      the payoff is that they are called to account for their crimes. a step will have been taken on the return to justice. we will start the arduous return to constitutional government. Congress will have asserted itself.

      Why should I put a lot of time and effort into the odds that there would be a Giuliani or Romney elected, if there's not a huge payoff?

      How do figure impeachment would get Giuliani elected? You can't guarantee that any more that I can guarantee what you want.  

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:44:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, yeah, (0+ / 0-)

        but that doesn't mean you go to work by walking down the left lane of the highway, either.

        It's a really simple risk and reward analysis.  The risk is great.  The reward is nebulous, at best.

        Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

        by Inland on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:07:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see it the opposite (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Atheinostic

          the reward is great - Congress stands up to defend our constitution and rule of law. The D party defines itself as committed to core American principles, neither right nor left.

          the risk is nebulous.

          An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

          by mightymouse on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:55:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Here's the payoff (0+ / 0-)

      A president does not have a right to claim executive privilege when under investigation by the Impeachment Committee.

      It's like Apple and Microsoft. Without Apple, Microsoft wouldn't have anything to copy. Edwards is the idea factory. -demwords

      by Jiminy Cricket on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:53:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Which Democrats will get more votes (8+ / 0-)

    in 2008? Spineless, hand-wringing wimps, or courageous defenders of the Constitution? Those who would be angry with impeachers of GWB would never vote Democratic in a million years.

    Maybe I'm blinded by my own biases, but I can't see anyone saying in 2008, "You know, I've voted Democratic all my life, but when they impeached W, I just lost it. Gotta vote for more neocon thugs just like W!"

  •  Hot listed! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, Atheinostic, rjones2818

    For the great refutation re "the damage."

    Thanks!

  •  Five major policy targets in second term (0+ / 0-)

    All failed, so is it time to kick Bushco when they are down, YES.
    Is it cruel, YES, but so what, Bushco has committed high crimes, and almost driven the American Republic and democracy to the point of extinction, time to impeach and get them on trial in the Senate, but...
    after HE withdraws the troops, and before nov 08.

    There is a good argument for allowing their 'war' in Iraqi to collapse naturally under its WH-SNAFU leadership, and thus granting GWB the honour of being the dishonoured fallguy who withdraws the troops and thus earning 08 electoral disgrace, and his rightful place in the history books.
    I would imagine the GOP seriously want the war to continue into 09 and the Dem presidency, then the troops come home, then they can say "its all the Dems fault" this is a big trap, their last ditch poison pill for 2012.

    Morality is the single most important issue.

    by Ferrofluid on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:21:14 PM PDT

  •  Am I missing something here? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, Atheinostic

    I have heard it repeated many times that impeaching Clinton caused the Republicans to lose the 1998 elections.

    Seems reasonable except for one thing, 1998 midterm elections took place before Clinton was impeached.

    Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998 and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999.

    It's like Apple and Microsoft. Without Apple, Microsoft wouldn't have anything to copy. Edwards is the idea factory. -demwords

    by Jiminy Cricket on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:45:22 PM PDT

  •  Whether or not the Senate votes for removal (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, Atheinostic

    Impeachment would be helpful for this reason alone:

    A president does not have a right to claim executive privilege when under investigation by the Impeachment Committee.

    It's like Apple and Microsoft. Without Apple, Microsoft wouldn't have anything to copy. Edwards is the idea factory. -demwords

    by Jiminy Cricket on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:51:31 PM PDT

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