Daily Kos

Don't Worry Too Much About HRC's Negatives

Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:15:36 AM PDT

Folks have been buzzing the last few days about Hillary's negatives and their potential impact on downticket races.  

There's no doubt that Hillary has had high negatives in lots of different polls since the campaign began -- almost always the highest in the field. (She has also often had among the highest positive ratings, but let's leave that aside for now).

If the election were held today, these negatives would be a big challenge.  Clearly, for Hillary to win and for downticket Democrats to win, we'd all love to see the negatives come down.  But historically, candidates' negatives almost always go up during campaigns -- the other side inevitably spends millions to make sure they do, and some of it sticks!

So what's happening with Hillary? Is there any evidence one way or another?

Well, yes, there is.

(This may have been discussed in comments before -- I found it through a comment at MyDD. But I haven't seen a diary yet -- so apologies in advance if this is duplicative!)

Quinnipiac University has been polling in the big swing states of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, since earlier this year.

On August 8th they released their latest findings.

Guess what?

Hillary's negatives are going down, not up, as the campaign progresses.

And that's not just among Democrats -- it's among independents and Republicans, too.

Here's the quote from the press release:

"[S]he is turning around independent and Republican voters who previously viewed her negatively," said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

"In the last two months the share of voters who view her favorably has increased to about 50 percent - an important milestone - while the numbers who view her unfavorably has dropped. It is not huge movement, but it is consistent across all three states," Brown added.

In fact, the poll shows that Hillary doesn't need lower negatives than her opponent to win.  In fact, it shows the opposite -- she can win despite higher negatives than the other guy.

Let's look at Florida.  Clinton's favorable/unfavorable is now 50-42. Giuliani's is 53-26. Looks pretty good for Giuliani, right? Well, not so much.  Hillary beats him in a head to head 46-44.  

In other words, having a higher favorable number doesn't equal winnning.  

But wait, Obama's got a good favorable to unfavorable ratio, too: 44-26.  How does he do against Giuliani? He loses, 44-41 percent.

I'm not trying to make too much of these numbers -- it's early and they're bouncing around and they'll change.

But if you're worried about Hillary because

a) you think her unfavorables will never go down, and

b) you think she can't win because of them,

Do some more research.  Watch what happens over time. You may feel a bit more reassured.

(by the way, in case you think I'm cherrypicking, in this poll Giuliani beats Obama in Ohio and Pennsylvania, too.  Hillary ties Giuliani in Ohio and beats him in Pennsylvania despite much higher unfavorables than either Giuliani or Obama).

So what about you? How has your opinion of Hillary changed over time?

Poll

Since the campaign began, has your opinion of Hillary gotten

37%70 votes
36%69 votes
26%50 votes

| 189 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Polls, Quinnipiac University, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, 2008 elections, president, Primaries, Rudy Giuliani, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 243 comments

  •  I'll only note this: (11+ / 0-)

    Democrats Fear Clinton Drag on Down-Ticket Races
    The AP reports that some key Democrats are very worried over the negative impact of Hillary Clinton leading the party's ticket in 2008. "In more than 40 interviews, Democratic candidates, consultants and party chairs from every region pointed to internal polls that give Clinton strikingly high unfavorable ratings in places with key congressional and state races."

    Pollster Mark Penn explains: "There is a phenomena with Hillary, because she is the front-runner and because she's been battling Republicans for so long, her unfavorability (rating) looks higher than what they will eventually be after the nomination and through the general election."

    STOP HER AT ALL COSTS.  I'M BEGGING YOU IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRITES.

    Dear Democratic Party: Win This One or Just Disband

    by Tuffie on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:17:17 AM PDT

    •  yes, that's what i'm responding to. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      emsprater, cpresley, masslib, kitsapdem

      what would joe rauh do?

      by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:18:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You can't be smarter than the process of (7+ / 0-)

      democracy. Trying to intuit which candididate can win and which can't doesn't work. it isn't a matter of personality, or favorables - it's a matter of running a smart campaign and in this day and age, being lightning fast on response.

      Hillary is running the smartest campaign I have ever seen. And Repubs are going to have a terrible time taking her down if she gets the nom.

      Gore let all sorts of shit be said about himself and never responded. Kerry was better but still waited days to tackle the SBVT. That's what ended those two campaigns. Dukakis never pointed out that the furlough program that let Willie Horton out was a Republican program. That's what lost those campaigns.

      Hillary does not make that mistake. Republican is not the default vote in this country. Republicans are tough campaigners who know how to push people's buttons. Democrats think they can win on platform - I have no idea why. It doesn't work that way. Most Americans vehemently disagreed with Reagan's platform yet they like Reagan - that's who they voted for. And they like the person who runs the smartest campaign - and that is Hillary.

      The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

      by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:27:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If she's running such a smart campaign (8+ / 0-)

        then why are the GOP lining up to get her the nomination?  With HRC as the nominee, they can rally their base, demonize her to raise funds, and GOTV in a way that none of the other candidates can inspire.  The GOP is praying for her to get the nomination -- anyone else, and they don't have a chance.  

        And more people actively DISLIKE HRC than like her.  In the general election, she'd be radioactive.

        •  look at the numbers (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Alegre, cpresley, kitsapdem

          she's improving in the battleground states, and people will vote for her even if they don't all like her.

          what would joe rauh do?

          by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:37:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is EXACTLY what the GOP want (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cosbo, WahooMatt

            because she's the only candidate that they can beat.

            •  Oh, I dunno...they beat a war hero and a (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lorelynn, Scientician, masslib

              vice president who reinvented government during 8 years of peace and prosperity...

              Why didn't they beat her in senate races in New York, if that's the case?

              Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

              by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:19:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They had no chance to beat her in NY (0+ / 0-)

                with the inertia of the Clinton Dynasty and plenty of liberal NY money behind her.  They pick their battles carefully -- a lot more carefully than the Dems -- and they knew they couldn't win in NY.  Under Rove's 51% strategy, they didn't have to.

                •  Inertia? She won on INERTIA? (1+ / 0-)

                  Boy that's a new one!

                  What the Hell are you talking about?

                  Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                  by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:21:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Um . . . eight years of Clinton Administration (0+ / 0-)

                    provided plenty of inertia.  And NY was ripe for her, having been pre-prepared by her partisans.  I mean, if she was so freakin' popular, how come she didn't go back to Arkansas and run for Senate there?  She coasted to it with decent campaigning, a lot of money, name recognition and the popularity of her husband.

                    Don't get me wrong -- she's a decent Senator.  But I'd prefer she stay in the Senate.

                    •  I guess I don't know what you mean by (0+ / 0-)

                      inertia.  Whose?  The Republicans who hate her?  There was no inertia in the Clinton camp or she couldn't possibly have been elected and reelected.

                      As for where to live...both Clintons had to decide that.  I assume that, being young, they weren't ready to retire to Arkansas as Jimmy Carter did to Georgia.  Both Clintons needed a base close to the world stage on which they intended to act...I assume both chose NY as a place that would suit them and where they would fit comfortably while saying active in politics.  I really can't see Bill Clinton 'back in Arkansas'...can you?  (Can you catch a plane from there to Darfur?)

                      Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                      by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 01:19:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Obviously, history isn't your strong point. (0+ / 0-)

                  Control of the senate was hanging in the balance. At the end of the election, Pubs only had a majority because of Cheney.

                  Now, Lazio was better funded than Hillary. Considering how high the stakes were for the Republicans, they desparately wanted to win that seat and that's why they gave all that money to Lazio. Hillary won. And she won so convincingly, that the Pubs could not find a candidate to run against her in 06. That's a very big deal.

                  The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                  by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:22:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But that doesn't translate nationally. (0+ / 0-)

                    NY is a very particular beast.  And not at all indicative of national politics -- especially not national PRESIDENTIAL politics. What worked for her NY Senate race won't work on a national front.

                    •  Ha! Changing the goalposts, eh? LOL (0+ / 0-)

                      Lazio had more money - you do realize that, right? And yes, they needed to win that seat. Winning that seat would have given them a clear majority in that first session and they did not have a clear majority, They put a lot of money - more than Hillary had - into defeating her.

                      And you can talk about how New York is a blue state till the cows come home. Conservative farmers in upstate New York are no less conservative than farmers elsewhere - and Hillary won them over.

                      Hillary's a winner. And she's likely to take the national election in a landslide because she's bringing new voters to the table and she knows how to win cross over votes.

                      The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                      by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 01:41:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  It must be dark in there... (5+ / 1-)

              where your head is stuck most of the time.

              Hillary, Commander in Chief AND CEO of the Free World.

              by kitsapdem on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:19:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I won't dignify that with a comment, just a TR. (0+ / 0-)

                •  Wait a second... (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  lorelynn, trashablanca, masslib

                  ...you're storming around this thread calling Clinton supporters ignorant kool-aid drinkers, and you're troll-rating that comment?  

                  What a hypocrite.

                  •  I never said they were ignorant. (0+ / 0-)

                    Just idealistic and unwilling to face the greater political reality of the situation.  

                    And then someone tells me tacitly that I have my head up my arse, well, that's an ah attack that deserves a TR.  

                    •  No, you;'re projecting your fantasies (0+ / 0-)

                      as historical reality. That's is stuff that comes directly from one's posterior. Without evidence, and you have none for your argument, you're justiably being called out.

                      The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                      by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:23:33 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've given you my take. It's based on personal (0+ / 0-)

                        experience and my own wisdom -- which I think are good evidence -- not polls.  But I don't see how that makes it somehow less valid in this instance than the polls.  Especially when the primaries are still way far out.  

                        But the ad hominem attacks, just because I vocally disagree with you, are telling.  It's not a fantasy I've drempt up.  It's a very real political reality that will bit y'all on your own posteriors if you choose to disbelieve it.  

                        •  Right and accusing us of drinking Koolaid (0+ / 0-)

                          isnt' a personal attack. You're insulting, you're rude and you're thin skinned. It's never even occurred to you that we were polite to you, when you were insulting us.

                          You need to remove the TRs because all you got was a bit of what you dished out.

                          The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                          by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 01:36:22 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  I wont. (0+ / 0-)

            But I will vote for all the other dems down ticket.

            Mrs. Teasdale: I held him in my arms and kissed him. Rufus T. Firefly: Oh, I see, then it was murder!

            by ratador on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:02:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Hillary will mean 4 more Years of GOP (3+ / 0-)

          Folks that think Hillary is going to pick up votes from the needed independents and less progressive Democrats are living in a bubble of denial!  No matter how smart she campaigns or on what platform she runs, the mention of her name is toxic enough that many people just shut the door on voting for her.  

          This reaction to her may not be rational, but it's real and it's passionate and we nominate her at our peril.

      •  It is about personality. (6+ / 0-)

        I recently read The Political Brain.  Personality and a belief that the candidate really believes what they say are the largest factors in deciding who people vote for. Hilary Clinton fares poorly on both of these measures.l

        •  but she does much better over time (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Gabriele Droz, Alegre, cpresley, masslib

          the point is that these aren't static measures. as people get more exposure to the real hillary, not the media caricature, they like her more and more.

          what would joe rauh do?

          by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:37:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't. Count. On. It. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jct, TrueBlueCT

            SOME people like her better . . . most do not. Especially if you are not of a liberal bent.

            •  well, the poll i am diaring shows R's and I's (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cpresley, masslib

              moving to her.

              what would joe rauh do?

              by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:43:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course they are! The GOP wants her as the (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                TrueBlueCT, ratador

                nominee BAD!  Because she's the ONLY ONE THEY CAN BEAT!  The word has gone out to the mind-numbed robots: plug HRC, because anyone else will be a disaster for the GOP.

                •  Reverse psychology? Hasn't it ever occurred to (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  lorelynn, masslib

                  you that they want YOU to think so and thereby deny her the nomination?  Maybe she is, in fact, the nominee they most fear.

                  It's possible that anti-Hillary Dems/progressives are being played by the Rove squad...after all, they've never beat the Clintons...trashed them, yes...beat them, no.

                  Just sayin'...

                  Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                  by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:24:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They don't have to convince me. I never liked (0+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    ratador

                    Hillary.  I won't vote for her.  I think she'd do a mediocre job.  And while I think she'd do a better job than the current chimp, my seven year old would do a better job, too.

                    No, the GOP wants her to win so badly they have purposefully gone soft on her to pave her way.  

                    •  Yeah...I think we heard that... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      trashablanca

                      I won't vote for her.

                      Guess the Democrats will have to get along without your help.

                      Thanks for nothing.

                      Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                      by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:24:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Only if they nominate HRC. Other than that, (0+ / 0-)

                        I'll be voting Dem.  

                        But with the "Vote for Hillary or Kiss Right On OFF!" attitude I've seen over and over again, y'all have done squat to convince me that she'd be a candidate I could vote for.  

                        And since white southern males have decided the last several elections, maybe that's something y'all should consider.

                        •  Not me. (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          ghost2

                          But with the "Vote for Hillary or Kiss Right On OFF!" attitude I've seen over and over again, y'all have done squat to convince me that she'd be a candidate I could vote for.  

                           I don't have a candidate...yet.  But I do defend Democratic candidates of all stripes when I think they are being misjudged, unfairly attacked, or dismissed out of ignorance.  They are all human beings with flaws and baggage but any one of them, including Hillary Clinton, would do a better job for the country and for the world than anyone else you could vote for.  It's not my job to convince you to vote for any particular candidate when I don't have one myself! (I was a Draft Clark activist).  Your job, like mine, is to listen, learn, watch and evaluate all the candidates...without prejudice or hysteria.

                          There's time.

                          Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                          by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:46:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep. But after a few months on KOS (0+ / 0-)

                            I've become even more anti-Hillary, due to how her supporters argue -- and due to her performance at the debates.  I admit, I was hard to impress, but she didn't make the job any easier.  And her war vote is the proverbial stake through the heart, electorally speaking.  At least Edwards had the balls to apologize for his vote.

                            •  Stand back. You're too influenced by what (0+ / 0-)

                              other people say and think.  Every candidate has supporters who drive the rest crazy in one way or another and some annoy the undecideds with their 'my candidate or else!' attitudes...but you are doing essentially the same thing in reaction!  It's a vicious circle to get caught up in that.

                              Dismiss prosyletizers...avoid them...listen to thoughtful people who don't have an axe to grind one way or the other.  Listen to the candidates fairly and without prejudice...I know it's not easy...but it is the only way to decide with integrity and success comes with practice.  You also have to give up listening to the 'Hilliary haters' who reinforce your tendency not to be fair to her.  Take down the barriers you've put up already.  Stop second-guessing everything she says or does and just try to see what it is people see when they say she did well in a debate.  It is incomprehensible that even the naysayers admit that her debates have been far superior to others with very few missteps...doesn't that make you wonder what you missed or didn't see?  It should.

                              Re the war vote/stake thru the heart...well, it's over then...because Edwards said what you wanted to hear, it's OK for him....out with the stake!  Hmmm...I don't know how much experience or practice you've had in putting yourself in someone else's shoes/moccasins but it's an important skill to develop and key to understanding that others may behave differently than you think you would have but never had to because you don't have to take a tough vote and explain it to yourself and to others.  Why did she vote that way?  If you were a senator from New York following 9-11, are you really sure you know how you would have voted?  I'm not.  What I am pretty sure of is that no Democrat including Hillary would have invaded Iraq as GWB did.

                              Think about it.

                              Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                              by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 12:55:04 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                    •  Speaking of seven year olds.... (4+ / 1-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Gustavo, ghost2, Bill W, EvilPaula
                      Hidden by:
                      SicPlurisPoenaPrestantia

                      The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                      by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:24:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  That's today. Nothing is set in stone. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cpresley, masslib, kitsapdem

          Hillarys' favorables are changing. That's the proof of the pudding. If they high at the time of the election - which I have reason to expect they will be - she can win.

          Keeping favorables high relates to how a candidate handles crises that come their way. Gore and kerry both failed that test. Hillary doesn't. No matter what people throw at her, she fights back immediately. That's what people want.

          The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

          by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:43:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Blah blah (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cjallen, Cali Techie

            Gore's unfavorables on election day were around 35-38%. (yes, despite the constant pounding he took from the media smears)

            Hillary's unfavorable NOW are around 48-50%.

            Gore's unfavs are around 45% now (favs around 50%), but those came from his fighting the 35 day FL battle and later from opposing the war (which Hillary willingly supported) and getting hammered for it, and standing against the bastardization of the country by the Cheney-Bush regime (which Hillary at least in part went along with) on many things such as torture, wiretaps and the war.

            Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

            by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:50:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  One other point: (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Scientician, pamelabrown

              Whenever Gore makes appearance on TV, his unfavorables drop and favorables rise, almost instantly.

              1. after a brief appearance at the Oscar's his favorbales hit at or near 60%.
              1. just after his book tour recently, they improved as well.

              In other words, Gore's #s go up when people actually get to see him as against constantly hearing him getting trashed my the rightwingers in the media and the RWNM. Since the trashing of Gore by the wingers is a constant flow, now fixated on trashing him for fighting global warming, it's a see-saw battle for him on his #s. But, he's the fighting the battle for good reasons; this time to save the planet itself.

              Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

              by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:55:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  And favorables change. Nothing is inflexible. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cpresley

              And at the beginning of a campaign, they can change dramatically. Her unfavorables now are no reason to vote against her then. That's all. And you can blah, blah, blah till the cows come home.

              You should vote for who you like and who you best feels represents you. Not who you think can win or not win because, frankly, those kinds of equations never work. You cannot be smarter than the process of democracy,.

              The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

              by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:55:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dotster

                I agree that we should not be fixated on favs/unfavs, as they keep changing.

                The question is how much baggage a candidate carries. And how much of it is real. The Clintons do carry a fair bit of real baggage.

                Gore's unfavs, on the other hand are based mostly on lies constantly smeared against him, and coming as a result of the good battles he's waged and continues to wage on important matters.

                Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

                by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:59:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I've got nothin' against Gore. (0+ / 0-)

                  He ran a bad campaign and if he gets in, he won't make that mistake a second time.

                  The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                  by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:10:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  It's not the general election yet! (0+ / 0-)

            Gore and kerry both failed that test. Hillary doesn't.

            You're talking about Hillary's performance in the primaries thusfar, and comparing them to Gore's and Kerry's performance in the general election. Apples to oranges.

            Kerry responded badly because he couldn't believe they would attack his military record of all things. Well, HRC's Democratic peers have not taken off the gloves at all. Just wait until the GOP begins attacking her as a failed wife and parent. They are going to go as low as they are able...back to the Clenis, back to the woman "unable to keep her husband," yet actually aware of all the affairs, and using them toward her own political ends. They are going to attack her as unstable, arrogant, given to fits and outbursts. They are going to attack her relationships with police and military in Arkansas. Some of it is going to be exaggeration, some downright fictional. But it's all going to be ugly and public, and her negatives are going to be through the roof.

            'Fie upon the Congress' - Sen Bob Byrd

            by Maxwell on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:28:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And that's the difference between clinton and (0+ / 0-)

              kerry. Clinton knows upfront that if they don't have something to attack you on, they will make something up. The Clinton's already know that they will sue your strengths against you. That/'s what they've been doing since Nixon ran - it's not like Kerry could be surprised by this.

              Her negatives are only going to go through the roof if she fails to respond or if she validates the charges. As long as she does neither, her negatives will wind up in the upper thirties/lower forties and stay there. and she will win.

              Winning is more about running a good, aggressive campaign than about the issues and the Clinton's know how to run campaigns.

              The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

              by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:13:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Based on what? (0+ / 0-)

                Based on what do you think an aggressive response will decrease her negatives? Good thoughts?

                As long as she does neither, her negatives will wind up in the upper thirties/lower forties and stay there. and she will win.

                I really do dislike normative speech. Let's have some empirical evidence behind this. HRC is a known public figure, in the public eye for more the 15 years, who has had ample time to respond to her critics. Yet within the past month several polls have shown her negatives hovering nationally in the high forties to low fifties.

                When the GOP actually begins their attacks, and use her "aggressive" counterattacks to reinforce a carefully built narrative that she is "brittle" "shrill" and "strident"..."incapable of leading a family, much less a nation", you're expecting a ten to twenty point drop in her negatives?

                Again, based on what? Normative speech may be the province of hopes and wishes, but it doesn't make the world an oyster.

                'Fie upon the Congress' - Sen Bob Byrd

                by Maxwell on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:59:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Scientician

        Gore let all sorts of shit be said about himself and never responded.

        "Never" is incorrect, although Gore should have been (and SHOULD be) more swift and forceful in self-defense. If I were around, I would have made sure that he was.

        However, Gore did respond to the attacks in some way or the other, but the press refused to listen.

        And, some of the attacks on him started and spread like wild fire before he even had a campaign apparatus to fight back.

        Of course, there was no such thing as the netroots back then to get our side of the message out and to neutralize the Rightwing Noise Machine.

        BTW, FYI, They did put this out on the internet meme against Gore:

        Al Gore's support of the Internet, by V.Cerf and B.Kahn
        Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:43:58 -0400
        From: vinton g. cerf <vcerf@MCI.NET>

        No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community.  But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore’s contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.  

        Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

        by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:45:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gore actually joined in the joking about his (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          alleged tendency to fib. You cannot do that. He endorsed the meme when he did it. Gore ran a terrible campaign. I like the guy but he was in waaaaay over his head. And I worked and voted for Gore.

          But he did not attack memes swiftly, He and his campaign thought Clinton asked for the grief he got and just assumed that as long as they were clean - and Gore is Mr. Clean - that shit wouldn't happen to them. When it did happen, they didn't know what to do.

          If he jumps in now, that isn't a mistake he'd make again - I'm quite confident of that.

          The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

          by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:58:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Scientician, pamelabrown

            I won't allow you to spread this false meme: "Gore ran a terrible campaign." It's FALSE.

            Gore overcame severe double digit deficits he inherited from the scandal/impeachment circus (even before the internet meme surfaced) and won the popular vote (and likely the election itself.)

            Gore trailed Bush in 3/99 by: 18% points
            Gore won on 11/7 by: 0.5 points

            Net gain by the Gore campaign: 18.5 points.

            Gore got 48.4% of the vote compared to Clinton's 49% in 1996 running as an imcumbent w/o the the handicaps that Gore was handed, including by Clinton's reckless conduct.

            There is no fucking way that a campaign that gained 18.5 points (against significant odds) can be allowed to be called a "terrible campaign. No fucking way!

            Details can be found in: 2000 Election Synopsis.

            Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

            by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:06:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, it's true. He did run a terrible campaign. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ghost2

              He won and the election was stolen from him, but he still ran a bad campaign. Hell, he was on his way to concede the election when CLINTON thought to check the current tally, and called him in his limo to let him know it was up in the air .

              Gore didn't have a rapid response team. He just didn't. And you cannot campaign against the current GOP without one. He won anyway, but once we were in the post-election debacle, again he didn't have a way to swiftly combat their charges against him.

              I like Gore a lot. But he made the same mistakes that both Dukakis and Mondale made - namely, not aggressively challenging their rhetoric against him.

              The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

              by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:37:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Gore overcame an 18 point deficit (0+ / 0-)

                Hell, he was on his way to concede the election when CLINTON thought to check the current tally, and called him in his limo to let him know it was up in the air .

                That was Bill Daley from what I've read. Do you have a link for your claim?

                Gore didn't have a rapid response team. He just didn't. And you cannot campaign against the current GOP without one. He won anyway, but once we were in the post-election debacle, again he didn't have a way to swiftly combat their charges against him.

                Of course, he had a campaign PR and message team.

                Screw all this crap.

                Gore Won. Period.

                Let him get in the race and I'll run the rapid response and deliver landslides in both the primary and the general election, it he asks me nicely :)

                Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

                by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:52:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's what I said - Gore won and the election (0+ / 0-)

                  was stolen from him. NO one here is debating that. I worked for Gore and voted for him. He got fucked.

                  But he ran a lousy campaign. He just did. He didn't have a rapid response team and a PR team is not a rapid response team.

                  I'll find the link. It may take a little while, but yes, it was Clinton.

                  The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                  by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:02:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  please find the link (0+ / 0-)

                    Gore campaign made some mistakes, but they aren't the ones that people talk about. But, every campaign makes their share of mistakes.

                    However, when one judges performance, you have to look at the starting point and compare it with the ending point. Gore started 18 points down, ended 0.5% up. Hence his campaign actually performed well by a very objective measure.

                    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

                    by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:32:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  if a student begins (0+ / 0-)

                      freshman year with a C average in high school (for reasons beyond his control) ends college with an A total GPA (against continued difficulties; in Gore's case media/RWNM smears before the netroots came to exist AND Nader), then the performance assessment on that student would called stellar. Not "lousy" or "terrible" just because he didn't finish A+

                      Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

                      by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:35:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I am waiting for your link as i mentioned above. (0+ / 0-)

                Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

                by NeuvoLiberal on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:53:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Did you really just compare (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        masslib

        Hillary to Reagan?

        Seriously?

        Wow.

        A Vote For John Edwards Is A Vote For Yourself. Iowa Underground

        by ThunderHawk13 on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:36:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, the two have nothing in common. (0+ / 0-)

          I pointed out that people don't vote for platform, they vote for the person that they like the most. They liked FDR better than Hoover. They liked Truman better than Dewey. They liked JFK better than Nixon. And they liked Reagan more than Carter.

          The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

          by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:27:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And do Democrats, in all their wisdom, (6+ / 0-)

      really want to back the candidate for whom Rupert Murdoch is raising money?
       That's just crazy in my mind.
       Talk about shooting yourself in the face....

    •  Your 2nd quote don't support your thesis (0+ / 0-)

      (-7.38,-2.51) 76% of dKos readers think I'm a secret wing-nut operative!

      by Gustavo on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:30:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  tips? & prediction (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alegre, Scientician, tigercourse, masslib

    i guessed in another thread that this poll would be 80% more favorable (!!!) - seems a bit high, of course, but we'll see... ("same" doesn't count for prediction-testing purposes)...

    what would joe rauh do?

    by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:17:31 AM PDT

  •  Don't Worry - We're Used To GOP Rule (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueCT, dotster

    Should Hillary win the Dem nomination, many observers believe that another 4-8 years of GOP rule is a near certainty.

    I hope Hillary and her misguided followers will at least try to consider that...

    "I've been an oilman all my life, but this is one crisis we can't drill our way out of" --T. Boone Pickens

    by bincbom on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:19:00 AM PDT

    •  ah, many observers. they are usually right. nt (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      what would joe rauh do?

      by nbutter on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:20:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have to agree. (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Yoshimi, Mooncat, jct, TrueBlueCT, dotster

      When Karl Freakin' Rove all but endorses Hillary, that should scream at you.  The GOP wants her as the nom, and wants her bad, because she's the ONLY one they have a chance to beat.  If HRC is the nom, then the GOP will have an automatic rallying point to GOTV and raise funds, and a lot of folks like me will vote for third party candidates or stay home.  If its Obama or Edwards, then the GOP faithful will probably stay home, GOP fundraising will be flat, and the Dems walk away with the WH and Congress.

      It's up to y'all: are you SO sold on HRC that you're willing to risk the election?

      •  So Rove endorsing Hillary makes people (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        oldpro, Alegre, cpresley, masslib

        MORE inclined to vote for her? Is that what you're thinking? What Democrat will vote for Hillary in the primary because of Rove's endorsement?

        I'd like to hear you explain how rove endorsing Hillary means that Republicans want to run against her. If I understand you, what you're saying is that Rove is endorsing her, assuming that will help get her the nomination. Once she has the nomination, the Pubs can then defeat her the easist.

        So do the math for me here - who votes for Hillary because Rove endorses her? And if that's not how you think it unfolds, how do you see it?

        Because frankly, I see Rove's positive words as words that would drive most Democrats away from Hillary. Does it make YOU more like to vote for her when Rove endorses her? OR does it make you less likely to vote for her? And if it makes you less likely to, what makes you think you aren't responding exactly as Rove hopes you will?

        The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

        by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:32:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All Excellent Points (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cpresley, masslib

          I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply though. Not sure how anyone could answer your questions.

        •  You couldn't get me to vote for her with a gun to (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Mooncat, dotster

          my head.  

          My point is, Rove and the other GOP pundits are trying to sway popular opinion in the direction that HRC is the heir presumptive, thus short-circuiting the primary process.  In states with open primaries, Repubs and conservative Independents will likely vote for her.  She's the GOPs last hope for victory in 2008 -- because she's the easiest one to use to raise funds and energize the conservative electorate.

          So which is more important to you: defeating the GOP, or electing Hillary?

          •  If we elect Hillary, we defeat the Repubs. n/t (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            masslib
          •  What evidence do you have that Pubs will vote (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cpresley, TrueBlueCT

            for her based on that endorsement? Because Obama is the one who is ranking fairly highly among Republicans.

            You're encouraging people to vote against Hillary based on those favorable words. What states have open primaries? You need to present some evidence - which you haven't - that Rove's words could play out the way you say they will.

            I don't think you've thought this out and I think Rove is playing you like a well tuned fiddle.

            The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

            by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:52:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So electing HRC is more important than winning? (0+ / 0-)

              That's the problem with the Kool-Aid crowd.  They keep waving polls and voting records around, and are oblivious -- by choice or ignorance -- to the wider context of the election.  Hillary will lose.  Obama or Edwards will win.  It doesn't matter what she's polling now, it doesn't matter what her policies or voting record is, she's a blast of ill wind from the past that will depress Democratic voters and energize the GOP.  If you can't see that, then you deserve to lose.

              •  this isn't constructive (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                masslib

                You're just being insulting now.

                Stop using terms like "kool aid" about fellow progressives and Democrats.

                •  First of all (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm not a Democrat.  It's arguable that I'm a progressive.  I'm a Libertarian with fairly liberal views, and most importantly for the sake of this discussion, I'm an anti-Republican.

                  And the "Kool Aid" metaphor seems apt, based on my experiences with Hillary supporters.  If you don't like her, you're a sexist.  If you like one of the other candidates, then you haven't properly looked at her record.  And nothing you can do or say is going to convince them otherwise.  

                  •  Well (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    lorelynn, masslib

                    None of those apply to me, or anyone else in this diary debating you.  No one has called you sexist or claimed you haven't looked at her record.

                    Hell, this is DailyKos where Hillary gets 9% support.  So I don't know where you're encountering these Hillary kool aid drinkers but I have seen more Ron Paul and Kucinich cultists here than unreasonable Hillary supporters.

                    Your only thesis is that she's guaranteed to lose and it's a weak claim because it's based on conversations with people you know.  Anecdotal evidence isn't going to convince people, not when polling data is telling them the opposite.

                    So you need to retool and make a better case against her.  

                    •  Actually, I don't. (0+ / 0-)

                      She's a Dem -- y'all's problem.  If you give her the nomination, you will deserve to lose.  I won't vote for her, and plenty of other people will show up to vote against her.  Time will tell.

                      And the Kool-Aid crowd is definately present here, and I've seen and argued with them at a number of venues.  They are every bit as sold on a Hillarytopia as the Bushies are that they are on a divine mission to liberate the Holy Land.  

                      This is not an argument that will be won on poll numbers or logic or voting records.  It will be won or lost on pure emotion, and HRC inspires that.  Just not the good kind.

              •  You have to present some evidence that (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                masslib

                she will depress voter turn out - you haven't. In fact, Hillary's lead is due to her unprecedented popularity with women who traditionally don't vote. They are supporting her campaign enthusiastically.

                What polls actually suggest is that Hillary will turn out voters who don't normally vote and that we may be looking at a landslide win on her part.

                So go ahead - what polls have revealed that conservatives will turn out in record numbers to oppose her? Or is this a notion you found on the bottom of a Kool Aid pitcher?

                The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:53:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I talk to them. A lot of them. And they aren't (0+ / 0-)

                  exactly the "poll taking" sort.

                  Maybe my last few months of intense local political scruitiny doesn't measure up as scientifically as the polls you put so much store in -- but I know when I feel a shift in the political wind.  HRC will do poorly in the South, and probably also in the West (except for the PACNW)and my relatives in the Rust Belt ain't exactly enthusiastic about her either -- and half of them are women and all of them are Union.  

                  So discount me, if you dare.  I think we're all used to the GOP by now.  

                  •  Ahhh, so there is no evidence. (0+ / 0-)

                    And of course, Hillary will do well with unions. She sponsored the Employee Free Choice Bill, votes with the AFL-CIO 93% of the time, walks picket lines and already has the endorsement of Dolores Huerta. Unions will turn out in big numbers for Hillary because she's good to them - and with good reason.

                    I don't know if there is another candidate whose union credentials are in the good order that Hillary's are.

                    The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                    by lorelynn on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 11:16:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think Hillary does well in your (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            masslib

            demographic....whatever that is???? i can think of a few choice categories.

            Hillary, Commander in Chief AND CEO of the Free World.

            by kitsapdem on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:25:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My demographic? (0+ / 0-)

              White, male, Southern, middle-class, gun-owner, pro-choice . . . what demographic is that?

              Oh, yeah.  The one that turns out to vote religiously and has been the determining factor in every election in recent memory.

              You're right.  She doesn't do well in my demographic.  Perhaps you should pay attention to that.

        •  Good points (0+ / 0-)

          I am sure you won't get any replies, might take some real thinking.

          Hillary, Commander in Chief AND CEO of the Free World.

          by kitsapdem on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:24:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, this can't be good for our Party... (3+ / 0-)

        Last cycle we ran a Massachusetts liberal, and this cycle we want to re-hash the Clinton era? Ugh!

        Has everyone forgotten about the affair with the intern, and the ugliness of the subsequent impeachment?

        And for a while there I thought us Dems were making progress...

        Obama supporters need to be good winners down the stretch. Repeat after me, Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do. Clinton Democrats care...

        by TrueBlueCT on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:32:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wha? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cpresley, masslib

          You're holding Bill's affair and the Republican pogrom against him (including his impeachment) against Hillary?  That's patently unfair.

          Never mind any objections you may have had to Bill Clinton's presidency and policies.  It's clear now that the republicans would have impeached any Democrat for any reason.  Impeachment was clearly what they were up to for a long time with Clinton, they just needed a reason.

          The fact that they latched onto such a pathetic and minor infraction is my chief evidence of this.  They dug dug and dug into Whitewater, the Christmas card list, the travel office and even the damn cat, and found squat.  Then they got a blue dress and took off running.

          Oppose Hillary for many substantive reasons.  What happened to her husband at the hands of an insane Republican congress is not one of them.

          •  I do (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mooncat, TrueBlueCT

            You cannot separate Hillary from Bill and vice versa.

            Want to know something else? I guarantee you Bill has had affairs (as in multiple) since the impeachment (read, while still in office as well as after leavin office). I have been made privy to one in particular that took place in Martha's Vineyard.

            All of that, every last dirty bit of it, will come out and will hurt Hillary.

            That's the swiftboat plan. One of Hillary's biggest strengths was the fact that she could forgive Bill and make up after the Lewinsky affair. That positive gets turned into a negative when it comes out and she's painted as somebody who Bill has consistently played for a fool.

            Nobody wants to purposefully elect a fool as president.

            Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.

            - Albert Einstein

            by Walt starr on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 09:51:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ahhh...the old "I have been made privy to" (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              masslib

              argument...my personal favorite.

              Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

              by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:36:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know for a fact of one (0+ / 0-)

                It's also undeniable there have been others beyond the one I know of for a fact.

                So if you want to lose in 2008, nominate Hillary. It'll happen.

                And don't say I didn't warn you, either.

                Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.

                - Albert Einstein

                by Walt starr on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 01:30:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, let's put you to work on oppo research (0+ / 0-)

                  where the mother lode of scandal resides.

                  Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

                  by oldpro on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 06:21:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I happened onto this knowledge quite by accident (0+ / 0-)

                    though it does put me at one degree of separation from Bill Clinton.

                    Believe me, I never wanted to know about it and would never reveal the woman's name.

                    But if I found out about one (and this knowledge given to me six years ago), you know the Big Dawg is still "hittin' it" with others.

                    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.

                    - Albert Einstein

                    by Walt starr on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 07:16:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  As sinister as it all was, voters will not (4+ / 0-)

            want to see all these issues coughed back up again.
             It was an ugly time.  People will be looking for a new face, a new page, a fresh start, someone with no old, divisive baggage.
             And why in the world would Dems waste this opportunity on a candidate whose policies more accurately reflect those of a moderate Republican?

            •  you sound a bit like (0+ / 0-)

              David Broder here.  No offence I hope.  Voters still love Bill Clinton

              Your last statement I might agree with.  I just dislike this canard among the netroots that Hillary is somehow unelectable.  

            •  In a different thread (0+ / 0-)

              Some one brought up the Lieberman experience, I think to refute my position. You can follow the conversation here if you're inclined.

              I think the Lieberman scenerio is instructive to consider in answer to your question:

              And why in the world would Dems waste this opportunity on a candidate whose policies more accurately reflect those of a moderate Republican?

              Bear with me a moment. In the wash, Lieberman ended up being a loss for the left. The reason, in my opinion, is because there were enough center-rights in Connecticut to win the election for him as an independent candidate.

              While I'm inclined to believe that the trend on the national front is decidedly moving left of center, it's not so far left that we can afford to alienate our moderate Democrats.

              Hillary was laughed at/booed, when she suggested that she speaks with her own voice and not the voices of the people who give money to her campaign. I think she may have genuinely been surprised to find out that so many people in the audience would think otherwise. I was surprised that the response was unexpected from her.

              That got me to thinking more closely about it. What, specifically, has she done to feed a notion that she is in the pocket of the special interests who supposedly control her?

              She may listen to the DLC, but her voting record is decidely progressive. She is often accused of following the polls to inform her votes. Why would her vote on Iraq be any different? What exactly makes people think that there wasn't significant support among her constituents in favor authorizing the use of force?

              Either she follows the polls or she doesn't. If anything, her speech on the Senate floor strikes me as the words of someone who struggled to find the means to reconcile her personal thoughts on the issue with the will of her constituents. That's her job as my representative. I haven't seen evidence of her doing that kind of soul searching for any special interest other than the people of New York.

              Still, that was a long way to get to the answer to the question posed above. The reason why we should use this opportunity to elect someone who is perceived to act like a moderate Republican is because the perception is inaccurate. Her record and her conscience is progressive, and she may be able to reach some of those moderate republicans, particularly the female ones whose politics are more in tune with Hillary's on certain issues than her male counterparts. (Not because she's a woman, but because of where she stands on issues important to moderate republican women).

              •  thanks for taking the time to try (0+ / 0-)

                to answer my troubling question.  You make some good points.  I have to admit that I never gave much thought to Hillary's war vote representing the will of her constituents-----I was so mad at everyone who voted for it---furious, I should say.  It would be interesting to know what the NY polls were at the time of the AUMF vote.  Do you know?  I will vote for Hill if she is the nominee, but there are so many issues surrounding her that bother me.  I don't like the coziness between the Clintons and the Bushes, for instance.  I think it's unhealthy for our country.  I don't like Rupert Murdoch.  And I do think she would give the Repubs a chance as all their dirty tricksters would be out in full force if she is the nominee.  And I have many moderate Repub friends---sad to say that's mostly all I have----and to a person they say "no way" to Hillary.
                 And being from Illinois, and studying Barack Obama closely and carefully for years, I think he is about the best you could ever hope to have leading your country----all the superlative adjectives and the courage to speak out against the war when it was not popular to do so.  I trust his judgment and good sense.  And I am still idealistic enough to think about the momentous, healing moment it would be for this country to elect him president-
                ---and would immediately give hope to the rest of the world---we would be perceived so differently.
                 I would just be sad to waste this opportunity.      

                •  I don't know what the poll numbers were, no (0+ / 0-)

                  I wrote some of my speculations here regarding the matter. The I/P thing really muddies the traditional left/right context of things and there is significant Jewish voice in NYC. I'm just out of touch with exactly what that voice is saying and whether or not they were saying it in public.

                  I want to like Obama, no, I do like Obama. My only concern with him is his campaign. Hillary really isn't hitting him as hard as he could be hit, and his campaign is just not set up to handle what's being lobbed at it.

                  If you step back a bit and really look at what has happened, it becomes the picture is even more bleak. For example, Obama has tried to position himself as a visionary.

                  In the two instances when he's tried to break away from the pack, he has been forced to admit that his positions are right in line with Hillary. By pointing to her own words to use in defense of his own vision, he has ceded the role of visionary to her. If she said what he said first, how can he expect anyone to believe that this new vision is indeed his? Strike one.

                  Hillary then managed to sidestep the "hypocracy" brush he tried to paint her with, by citing his inability to appreciate the nuances of what she originally said; thereby highlighting his inexperience. Strike two.

                  So basically, for anyone who doesn't have a dog in the fight, Clinton, in essence, lands a double jab (I know I'm mixing sports metaphors).

                  But these are lovetaps by Clinton's camp, no where near the visciousness that the Dem candidate can expect from the Right Wing Noise Machine(tm) come the general election.

                  •  I don't think we're going to (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    MaxUS

                    reach an agreement, Max.  You have your ideas and I have mine.  
                     I happen to think that Obama's campaign has handled everything skillfully.  I like Obama's statement that the only way to deal with the attacks is to keep telling the truth---over and over--- until it becomes the truth