Daily Kos

What It Takes to Find Out What's True; Democracy, Israel & Dkos

Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 12:42:05 PM PDT

There have been many discussion as to what the purpose of this site is as well as what discussions, topics and issues are relevant to that purpose. I would put forward that the following exchange pretty much summed up the parameters of such debates;

REP. FORD: But, but, Markos, in all fairness, your site has posted awful things about Jewish-Americans. Your site...You--now you have a site up about...something about Cindy Sheehan, she uses it as a--she has a heavy presence there in talking about her run against...

And the response, of course...

MR. MOULITSAS: It's called democracy. If you don't like regular people--hundreds of thousands of people...

Because I don't control hundreds of thousands of voices. You and your organization have a few dozen people. You can control that message. And you don't need to attack Democrats.

Yes, democracy; how strikingly unremarkable that on a site which receives thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of hits a day, that there will be a wide range of discussions, positions and ideas present. Some may think Cindy Sheehan should run against Pelosi (like me, and I do hope she wins as well), others may not. Some feel that the Democratic Party's policy on Israel/Palestine is just fine, and others (like me) are not pleased with said policy and want to discuss it, and god forbid, change it. Really, how controversial is that?

Well, when one has a profound disregard for democracy and discussion, it's pretty clear what one does; you follow the right-wing attack machine tactics of smearing and silencing your 'enemy.' Like Ford and O'Reilly, you just go on the attack, personal attacks especially, while doing your best to steer clear of the actual topic, ideas and issues being discussed. You get this on Fox, on CNN, and on the blogospehere as well, particularly when the discussion of Israel/Palestine comes up.

That's why it is more important than ever to make sure that open, fair discussion and commentary on US Middle East foreign policy, particularly as it pertains to Israel/Palestine continues and develops further, here on DKos and elsewhere, among Democrats and Republicans, because there are those who wish for nothing more than silence on this issue;

The Chicago Council on Global Affairs has canceled a September speech on U.S.-Israel relations and Washington’s pro-Israel lobby by two prominent U.S. political scientists.

  John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt were scheduled to use the Sept. 27 address to outline their upcoming book, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," which is expected to be released by Farrar, Straus & Giroux early next month. But the president of the Chicago Council, Marshall Bouton, canceled the event under pressure from critics who were uncomfortable with the academics’ arguments, according to a letter drafted by Mearsheimer and Walt to the Council’s board.

   These opponents of the event argued that the two political scientists could only address the Chicago Council if someone from the opposing side, "such as Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, concurrently appeared on stage with the authors.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to sample a number of articles written recently, all written by Jewish Israelis whose views need to be heard and known by others, and in particular, by Americans (who pay for the crimes of the Israeli government, among other crimes paid for and committed by our government), by Jewish people (in whose name the state of Israel acts), and in the end by all human beings, who have even the merest pretense in caring about the fate of their fellow brothers and sisters.

The first is a recent article by Amira Hass of Haaretz, and if you have not read her books yet (Drinking the Sea at Gaza: Days and Nights in a Land Under Siege and Reporting from Ramallah: An Israeli Journalist in an Occupied Land), then I highly recommend that you do so.

And here is part of The Hebron Tactic

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racist, violent graffiti written in a Palestinian girls school (recently victim of an arson attack) in Hebron by Israeli settlers; I believe one of them says death to the headmistress of the school, but help with the translation is welcomed

The tactic is one that is well-known from Hebron, the same tactic that helped to cleanse the Old City of most of its Palestinian residents: Jews harass and bully and then threaten to lodge complaints against their victims with the Israeli police. Harassment and sabotage of a much more serious nature than what we experienced has become routine for the Palestinian shepherds and farmers in the area. As a result, about 850 of the 3,500 or so inhabitants of the area known as Masafer Yatta (Yatta's periphery) have left their habitations, in caves and tent encampments. Sometimes it is their access to water sources that is damaged, sometimes their herds, other times themselves. They have piles of papers attesting to the police complaints they have submitted. Until they stopped filing complaints.It is easy to blame the two men, or those like them. But they practice terrorizing Palestinians because Israeli authorities let them do so. In their own way, they do the same thing the "legitimate" occupation authorities do: They drive the Palestinians off their land to make room for Jews. In other words, they are following orders.

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destroyed homes in the South Hebron Hills (Yatta's periphery)

Another voice on the matter of Hebron and the settlers, from Gideon Levy, who states in response to the recent evacuation of settlers from a Hebron market building, that they in fact, should not be evacuated;

No to evacuation

We must also apologize to the families for expelling them: They should not have been discriminated against in comparison with the city's other settlers. There is no difference between their act of robbery and the other acts of robbery in the city...It would also have been better had the self-righteous evacuation performance, which incorporated a very large force, 3,000 soldiers and policemen, never taken place - including the staged acts of refusal and violence that are a hallmark of the well-timed show. These absurd acts of evacuation don't help anyone, they only cause damage. In Hebron there should be one rule: all or nothing. Either the government has the courage to uproot the entire abscess, or it should allow it to grow unabated.

There is no other place in the territories where the essence of the truth and the evil of the settlement enterprise is revealed, without camouflage, as in the City of the Patriarchs. Here the violence, dispossession and terror against a helpless population are a daily routine diabolically taught from birth. So the failure to uproot the Hebron settlers is the real crime, and we will pay for it. Nothing has changed in Hebron after the evacuation. Thousands of Palestinians who lost their property and their chance for a decent life, the victims of genuine ethnic cleansing, are doomed to a life of poverty and humiliation, and no one can help them. The settlers' celebration continues in full force, and most Israelis continue to stare at what is happening with horrifying indifference. They are shocked only at the highly publicized refusal of a handful of soldiers and are clicking their tongues: We will never be able to evacuate the settlers.

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More racist violent graffiti from Hebron's settlers on Palestinian homes

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Al-Shuhada Street closed to Palestinian business & driving due to military orders & settler violence; notice the doors covered with stars of david an dother graffiti.

In the Levy article, he goes further into the nature of the evacuation and it's sham-like spin for the media,making this very important comparison to the way that the Israeli military conducts itself with Palestinians as opposed to Jewish Israelis;"An evacuation that could have been carried out in minutes, in the middle of the night and by surprise, as is done to the Palestinians whose homes are demolished, was carried out in the spotlight, with several weeks' advance warning, to allow the settlers to produce their big show and benefit with pictures of it. In another article the title alone makes it very clear the racist divide that separates Jewish Israelis from the occupied and oppressed Palestinians, and it is a piece that hits home for me personally. I have visited my relatives there a number of times, and my cousin's son will be turning 18 in the coming years. Then I spoke with her strongly of my hope that he refuses to join the Israeli military, like many other brave refuseniks, but I am not so sure that she will allow him to do so, or that he will even know that it is an option. It truly breaks my heart, because he is a very sweet young boy, and I can only imagine how the experience of becoming a soldier and having to serve in an army of occupation will change him.

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Soldiers in Bil'in village; who is afraid of whom?

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A Palestinian beaten in Aboud, carried by his father and the writer

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An occupied Palestinian talking to Israeli soldiers on occupied Palestinian land

Let's hope his mother becomes as brave as Nurit Peled-Elhanan

IDF Soldiers Never Go to Jail for Killing Palestinian. Never.
The Murder of Abir Aramin, Nine Years Old

The soldiers of Israel are called upon to sacrifice children, parents, volunteers, and sometimes themselves on the altar of the megalomania of the insolent and corrupt leaders of the state of Israel, who have succeeded in converting this whole country into an altar on which they sacrifice other people’s children to the god of death. And no one is guilty of their deaths; no one is ever punished for the murder of a Palestinian child. The state takes care of those who serve it, sometimes. Other times it sacrifices even them, with the same cold-bloodedness and for the same reasons.

And the murderers? What about them? Do they know that they committed crimes? Do they toss and turn in their beds at night? Are they tormented by images of the small bodies that convulse and fall under their rifles, bombs and shells? Probably not. We know of no case in which any soldier turned himself in and expressed remorse for his actions. That is the biggest success of Israeli education: the distinction between blood and blood, between dead child and dead child, and the inculcation of the firm belief that the murder of Palestinians and their friends is not a crime.

And if my son Yigal really does want to participate in the military programs that they impose on high school students starting in grade 10, or God forbid, to enlist in the army of occupation and torment, I will see it as a dreadful educational failure. A terrible maternal failure. And if I do not do everything I can to prevent him from becoming a murderer or a corpse at the age of 18 I will know that I betrayed him and my vocation as a mother.

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Israeli soldiers beating and detaining an Israeli demonstrating with Palestinians in the village of Aboud

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Israelis demonstrating with Palestinians in the village of Bil'in

And finally, we have the voice of Uri Avnery; I don't always agree with him, but when I do, I do. Here are some snippets from a Gush Shalom article on Wolfowitz and Wolfensohn, and other political observations;

But beyond personal traits, there is a profound ideological chasm between them. To me, they personify the two opposite extremes of contemporary Jewish reality. Wolfensohn belongs to the humanist, universal, optimistic, world-embracing trend in Judaism, a man of peace and compromise, an heir to the wisdom of generations. Wolfowitz, at the other end, belongs to the fanatical Judaism that has grown up in the State of Israel and the communities connected with it, a man of overbearing arrogance, hatred and intoxication of power. He is a radical nationalist, even if it is not quite clear whether it is American or Israeli nationalism, or if he even distinguishes between the two.

In the eyes of Wolfensohn, both sides are to blame for the current situation, but he clearly blames Israel more, since it is the stronger and more active party. No doubt, Israel is very important for him. He had a lot of sympathy for it (In World War I, his father was a soldier in the Jewish battalions which were set up by the British army and sent to Palestine.) He gave the interview to the Israeli paper in order to voice a severe warning: time is not working for us. The demographic clock is ticking. Today, Israel is surrounded by some 350 million Arabs. In another 15 years, it will be surrounded by 700 million. "I don't see any argument that supports the idea the Israel's situation will get better."

All that is happening now is theater. Olmert pretends that he really wants to "save Abu Mazen", while doing the opposite. At Bush's request, he allowed the transfer of a thousand rifles, with a lot of fanfare, from Jordan to Abbas, so he can fight Hamas - understanding full well that to an ordinary Palestinian this will look like collaboration with the occupier against the resistance. He enlarges the settlements, keeps the "illegal outposts" and closes his eyes while the army is helping the settlers to put up more outposts. That is a foolproof recipe for a Hamas takeover in the West Bank, too.

Everybody knows that there is only one way to strengthen Abu Mazen: immediately to start rapid and practical negotiations for the establishment of the State of Palestine in all the occupied territories, with its capital in East Jerusalem. Not more discussions about abstract ideas, as proposed by Olmert, not another plan (No. 1001), not a "peace process" that will lead to "new political horizons", and certainly not another hollow fantasy of that grand master of sanctimonious hypocrisy, President Shimon Peres.

I will end with the words of Jackson Browne, on what it takes to find out the truth, and act on it. The lyrics are from a song about America, but it can just as easily be used in reference to Israel, and the dogged determination to silence the discussion that we need to continue;

As if freedom was a question of might
As if loyalty was black and white
You hear people say it all the time-
My country wrong or right
I want to know what thats got to do
With what it takes to find out whats true
With everyone from the president on down
Trying to keep it from you

(from For America, Jackson Browne, album title Lives in the Balance)

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Tags: Israel, Palestine, Democracy, Racism, Harold Ford, dlc (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 210 comments

  •  the usual one-sided rant (10+ / 0-)

    It's not even "Israel bad, Palestinians good" -- it's "Israel bad, Israel bad bad, Israel bad bad bad."

    In memory of Tom Disch.

    by zemblan on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 12:46:58 PM PDT

      •  Why bother, when it never changes? (4+ / 0-)

        You have one agenda, and you stick with it.  The message never changes, why bother reading the same things over, and over, and over again?

        •  And you have no agenda? (18+ / 0-)

          why bother with constant criticism of diaries which you admittedly do not even read? Why bother with the same tired mythology and talking points? Why bother mis characterizing well written articles by Israelis, my pictures, personal testimony and ideas as my 'one agenda?"

          If you want to have a decent discussion, I welcome it; I do not however, believe in silencing such discussions just because they are unpopular or controversial.

          •  You use graffiti as "agenda"? (4+ / 0-)

            Seriously dude, you used graffiti to prove your point.  What is that about? Are you saying it was done by the government, or by individuals?  If it wasn't governmental in nature, then you are just projecting your feelings into unrelated events.

            I don't have a single agenda, I have balance.  I've got thousands of posts here, on every topic under the sun- all but one of your posts are on this one topic.

            People without balance topple over.

            •  Just to be certain (7+ / 0-)

              People without balance topple over.

              is that a threat?

              And do you really consider yourself both fair and 'balanced?' Really?

              •  Threat? (6+ / 0-)

                Yeah, the zionist conspiracy is gonna kidnap you while you sleep.

                Seriously dude, Harold Ford says that Dkos has some anti-israel stuff on it that at times borders on anti-jewish, and then you go and try to hold an entire nation culpable for a couple bits of graffiti?  

                Looks like you're doing your damnedest to prove him right.  

                •  PS, white kid wearing a kefiyeh (4+ / 1-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Red Sox, EnderRS, SteamPunkX, BrooklynBlue
                  Hidden by:
                  GN1927

                  Very trustafarian of you - gimme a break.  It's not judaism's fault you're guilty about how good you had it growing up.  

                  •  wow... that is so not cool on so many levels (10+ / 0-)

                    I can't even believe that you wrote it... just disgusting, really.

                    •  Fashion advice separate from policy advice (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      SteamPunkX, BrooklynBlue

                      of course - just saying it's silly, fake and pretentious to wear that, you're not a Palestinian, spare us.

                      I say the same thing about white kids with dreds, for the record.

                      •  I am still appalled (5+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Euroliberal, sofia, Noah in NY, RAZE, paxmonger

                        and you are way way off-base on this one. period.

                        I support Palestinians and their struggle for peace and justice

                        I have never, never stated that I am a Palestinian nor want to be one, whatever that means

                        I wear Kuffiyehs here, there, and anywhere I darn well please as a statement of my solidarity... that and they are very handy in both hot and cold weather, politics aside. And aside from that, I will also help secure and carry beaten and detained people as I am doing in the picture; funny how you completely missed that.

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                        'moderate physical pressure'

                        despite how telling it is that seeing a Jewish person with a Kuffiyeh on annoys you, end the personal attacks now please, while you still have a shred of dignity left.

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                        Israeli Jew Matan Cohenwearing a Kuffiyeh weeks before being shot in the eye by the Border Police in Beit Sira

                        •  Dude, I'm not even jewish, (3+ / 0-)

                          I could give a shit.

                          I hate posers regardless of creed.

                          And yeah, going out of your way to get zip tied so you can take pictures and brag about how maybe there was a red mark for a couple hours qualifies as "poser".

                          •  I don't care what you are (8+ / 0-)

                            but regardless, your comments are vile, and getting viler; now you attack a person who you do not know and make assumptions about how it was his fault that soldiers attacked him during a non-violent protest in his village and beat him severely, requiring medical attention; blame the victim much?

                            just horrible, really.

                            •  Requiring medical attention???? (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              1918

                              Dude, look at the picture you showed me - about 4 seconds of applied pressure from a noodle would leave marks like that.

                              And yeah, I'd say buying a plane ticket to cross the world and "nonviolently? insert yourself into a combat zone qualifies it as "your fault" you were in the way.  

                              If you're gonna go enter a war, either do real peacekeeping with the UN, real humanitarian work with medecines sans frontieres or another nonpolitical group, or bring an AK and fight for real.  That's how they do politics there.  Man up.  Until then, don't talk like you're tough because you relied on the fact that the IDF is the most professional force in the region not to get you killed.

                              You think Palestinian security services or arab armies show fire discipline like that when some random white kid is in the way of their mission?  

                              •  The man was beaten severely (5+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia, RAZE, paxmonger

                                about the head and body and required medical attention; I was there, I know these things. You were not there, so please stop making assumptions so you can peddle your talking points.

                                •  I can see the pics - (0+ / 0-)

                                  calling that guy "beaten severely" is a discredit to anyone who's ever really gotten his ass kicked.

                                  •  Again, you were not there (2+ / 0-)

                                    Recommended by:
                                    sofia, RAZE

                                    so let it go with the uniformed assumptions, it's just getting more and more revolting.

                                    •  Yes, but I know what a beating looks like, (0+ / 0-)

                                      No black eyes, broken nose or missing teeth on that guy - like I said, poser.  The irish dudes I used to live with in Somerville are more real than that guy, at least they really got their teeth knocked out being idiots.

                                      •  Oh, that guy is Palestinian, (0+ / 0-)

                                        Nevermind, he's real - my opinion on you wearing a kefiyeh stands.

                                        •  I know, you certainly have no shame (1+ / 0-)

                                          Recommended by:
                                          RAZE
                                          •  See below, made serious comment to you (0+ / 0-)

                                            Seriously, you have some passion and want to fight injustice, good, join an apolitical relief group and actually do good work helping people.  That's how men looking to fix problems act, they do things that will get results, as opposed to kids trying to feel important who just do things that sound romantic.  Who's life did you ever improve by delaying their home's demolition for a half hour?

                                            You probably contributed to some of those beatings by making it a more confrontational atmosphere - I know that's probably hard to hear but it could very well be true in a couple cases.  Think of the good work you could do if you helped PAlestinians start small businesses or whatever - development leading to a happier populace AND more likely to seek peace and move on, maybe to your 1-state solution within a few generations.  Do something good.  Don't make a "statement", just do it.  

                                            •  You really do not know much about occupation (3+ / 0-)

                                              Recommended by:
                                              Euroliberal, Brecht, sofia

                                              and I don't need or want your respect or approval. I do what I do and have no problem with it.

                                              The very idea that you think I should have "helped PAlestinians (sic) start small businesses or whatever" shows how little you know as well as your own patronizing attitude towards them. If they only had some more businesses and started behaving like civilized people, etc etc- what nonsense! What good would it do if I helped start a business for/with someone, and the home was destroyed, the were employees arrested, or the customers assassinated? Palestinians live under conditions you could hardly imagine and obviously have no clue about.

                                              I do this work because it addresses the injustice of the situation as well as what needs to end for there to be peace. The only possible way for me to have been there was on the invitation and welcome of the Palestinians I work with, so your opinions are virtually meaningless in that regard.

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                                              Mohammed Khatib of Bil'in obviously not pleased to be demonstrating with a Jewish American and Jewish Israeli woman among others. Who knows, maybe he wants more of them to help out?

                                              (warning; snark alert)

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                                              Palestinians obviously not friends with Jonthan Pollack, Israeli non-violent organizer and demonstrator

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                                              Palestinians begrudgingly feeding International and Israeli activists that help them with the olive harvest

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                                              Palestinian woman in Nablus not interested in showing international activist her belongings and home destroyed by an IOF invasion

                                              (enough snark)

                                              We refuse to be strangled by the wall in silence

                                              December 1, 2005

                                              Mohammed KhatibBy Mohammed Khatib

                                              Member of Bilin’s Popular Committee Against the Wall and the secretary of the Council of his village.

                                              In our village of Bilin, near the West Bank city of Ramallah, we are living an important but overlooked story of the occupation. Though Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza earlier this year, they are continuing to expand their West Bank settlements.

                                              But a year after the International Court of Justice’s decision, wall construction Palestinian land continues. Behind the smoke screen of the Gaza withdrawal, the real story is Israel’s attempt to take control of the West Bank by building the illegal wall and settlements that threaten to destroy dozens of villages like Bilin and any hope for peace.

                                              Bilin is banging, Bilin is screaming. Please stand with us so that we can achieve our freedom by peaceful and nonviolent means.

                                              We invite you to participate with us in an international conference that we will hold in Bilin to address the occupation and build nonviolent resistence to it, February 20 & 21, 2006.

                                              For more information on the conference, please write to: bel3en@yahoo.com

                                              Please forward this invitation widely!

                                              Bilin’s Popular Committee Against the Wall and settlements

                                      •  With me that day was my Irish friend (0+ / 0-)

                                        who is an actual doctor, and he made it clear to the IOF commander that he needed medical attention after they beat him for no reason (actually, there was a reason, it was to try and end the demo; you grab some Palestinians, beat them & use them as leverage).

                                        Still want to spout nonsense? A Palestinian demonstrating against the theft of his land is a poser, but a non-Jew making near anti-semitic accusations against a Jewish person is a not a poser?

                                        •  Didn't call that guy a poser, (0+ / 0-)

                                          Or maybe I did but took it back when I realized he's actually from there.  

                                          I'm still stickin with it with you though.  Get an AK if you really want to fight the occupation, or encourage economic development if you want to do some good.  

                                  •  Here's more (4+ / 0-)

                                    Recommended by:
                                    Euroliberal, Brecht, Noah in NY, RAZE

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                                    A sixty year old woman, her shoulder broken due to army violence; does she merit sympathy or is the victim to blame?

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                                    matan cohen before,

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                                    and after; care to comment more on events/people/places you do not know anything about?

                                    •  I know a bit about it, (0+ / 0-)

                                      Been there although not with a gun and had friends who served.

                                      Join UNRWA or Doctors without Borders or a group that actually does some good and I'll have respect for you as a man. So will the Palestinians.

                                      Hang out with a bunch of punk kids who accomplish nothing but testing soldiers discipline until an accident happens and you're just a rich kid with a daddy problem.

                                      •  I have no need for your respect (5+ / 0-)

                                        Recommended by:
                                        Euroliberal, Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia, Tanya

                                        and I'll contribute in the way I choose; I am prous of the ISM and of being in the ISM, period.

                                      •  ISM do enormous good (5+ / 0-)

                                        Recommended by:
                                        Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia, RAZE, Tanya

                                        just ask the Palestinians who they accompany to protests, or the kids they accompany en route to school, etc.

                                        How about we focus on the diary, and not on what the diarist likes to wear?

                                        •  ISM got that kid shot in the eye (0+ / 0-)

                                          for what?  Delayed a home demolition by a half hour?  Was it worth it?

                                          •  you are just a moral train wreck (2+ / 0-)

                                            Recommended by:
                                            sofia, echatwa

                                            again, I know the events that happened, know the people there then and have seen the video of the shooting itself (I was in Balata refugee camp that day under invasion helping to collect dead, murdered bodies from homes).

                                            you however, have the moral compass of a soup ladle, it is just astounding.

                                            Matan Cohen has been an activist with a number of Israeli groups and was in Beir Sira as well as elsewhere by his own choice; he was shot willfully by the border police, whose commander shouted before shooting "fuck them in the head."

                                            What kind of twisted mentality takes that willful act of violence at an unarmed human being (a Palestinian was also shot in the abdomen as well, requiring surgery to remove the rubber coated metal bullet, which means they were shooting at well within the restricted range) and then blame the ISM for it? Matan has not blamed the ISM, the Palestinians did not blame the ISM (many, many young Palestinians have been shot in the eye by Israeli soldiers in the past years, it is frighteningly common, The same thing could have happened to me, and if so I would certainly not have blamed the ISM.

                                            I just finished reading a story from an Israeli film, where a soldier throws a gas grenade in a home in Tulkarem, which ends up suffocating a 2 year old child. The soldier is racked with guilt and seeks forgiveness from everyone but the family themselves. When the interviewer asks him why he has not asked them, he states that he is the real victim, and that they should apologize to him for not opening the door sooner (See Walled, by Sylvain Cypel pages 71-72).

                                            Sound familiar?

                                            Palestinians have very few choices; they can sit back and watch their land being colonized before their eyes, or they can resist that process; I work with Palestinians using non-violent resistance methods, and whether we are victorious for just a moment or a few days, months or years before the land is taken, the trees cut or the home is demolished, I know from what I have seen that it is worth it. As my friend says, "To resist is to Exist."

                                            •  the Israeli film, by the way is a documentary (0+ / 0-)

                                              called testimonial, fyi

                                            •  What happened.. (0+ / 0-)

                                              ..with Matan Cohen's eye?  Did he lose his vision?

                                              •  partially I think (2+ / 0-)

                                                Recommended by:
                                                Rusty Pipes, sofia

                                                but last I heard I don't think he lost the eye, but I could be wrong, it happened not very long before I left. It was pretty harsh to say the least. At the demos in Bil'in and Beit Sira you may get different soldiers, but the border police you get to know, and they are usually very violent folks; they did not get drafted, they volunteer for that shit. when Matan was shot, we all were freaked out, I mean here we are demonstrating together day in and day out, it could have been any one of us, Palestinian, Israeli, or International.

                                                •  Thanks.. (0+ / 0-)

                                                  ..for the info. Sorry to hear of the loss of vision -- I'd been thinking of him since I saw the photo hoping that he was OK, although it looked really bad.

                                                •  Agree that border police (0+ / 0-)

                                                  are usually a lot more thuggish than the army folk who are just doing their national service.

                                                  Still think sending people into a war zone to accomplish not a damn thing but causing a stir forfeits your right to act outrage when some things WAY short of war happen to you.

                                                  •  again you invert the normal moral universe (2+ / 0-)

                                                    Recommended by:
                                                    sofia, Terra Mystica

                                                    I do not 'send people' anywhere, not does Matan, what kind of garbage is that?

                                                    And I am not talking in the abstract; this is one of many specific instances where the Border police are just doing their 'job' and inflicting senseless violence on unarmed civilians; comment on that and not some theoretical reality/comparison.

                                                    This 'war zone' is people's homes, their streets, places of work, etc. I chose to go there to be in solidarity with those suffer under occupation, just as Matan chose to go there from his home in Israel. As he is still very active in the movement with his Israeli groups, I know that he feels that what he is doing is worth it, as I know that what I have been doing has made a difference.

                                                    Would you say such horrible things about Goodman or Schwerner or Chaney, that they should have known what could have happened, that Mississippi was a 'war zone' and they should have let the government take care of things instead?

                                                    My outrage is against the occupation and the barbaric violence it uses against Palestinians and those who would join them in solidarity; I refuse to blame the victim, which you seem to enjoy doing.

                                                    •  Help build a new house, (0+ / 0-)

                                                      or give someone a bowl of soup - that'd do a lot more good than the fappery that is the ISM.

                                                      Let alone, you know, encouraging the Palestinian political leadership to pursue final status negotiations which would actually help things.  Adding drama to scenes involving lots of people with guns never helps anything.

                                                      And, yeah, civil rights, different story.  If black people were blowing up cafes in the 60s they prob wouldn't have succeeded either.

                                                      •  give someone a bowl of soup? (2+ / 0-)

                                                        Recommended by:
                                                        sofia, Terra Mystica

                                                        where do you come up with such patronizing garbage?

                                                        Who the hell am I to encourage Palestinians concerning negotiations? You seem to miss the point that I reject any notion that I or anyone else should control them or make choices for them. I support the choice made by many of them to resist the occupation non-violently, I don't add any drama, I witness it, get it? (I have, however, worked with ICAHD, so in a sense I have helped to rebuild destroyed homes; would you like to join them doing that?).

                                                        And your disgusting last comment, well, actually I'm not surprised at all you came to such a horrid conclusion.

                                                        •  Hey, it's true, (0+ / 0-)

                                                          If Martin Luther King was building bombs and blowing shit up he wouldn't have gotten anything done.  Arguably the same with Gandhi although the Raj wasn't going to last much longer anyways, the whole subcontinent owes that guy a favor for pursuing peace and reconciliation.

                                                          That's the difference between the situations.

                                                          •  Let me ask you this. (1+ / 0-)

                                                            Recommended by:
                                                            Terra Mystica

                                                            Is jon building bombs and blowing up shit? Are the people who are engaged in non-violent protests against the occupation building bombs and blowing up shit?

                                                            Now, there were Black activists, nationalist movements, that did go around building bombs, blowing up shit and robbing banks, advocating violence. Did MLK and non-violent activists deserve the beatings they received because of the others? Should they have predicted it? Should they have known better even though they weren't responsible for what the others did and could have in no way prevented it?

                                                            You don't think before posting do you?

                                                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                            by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:43:05 AM PDT

                                                            [ Parent ]

                                                            •  You again, geez, (0+ / 0-)

                                                              the black civil rights movement and the indian independence movement were blessed with leaders who wanted reconciliation.

                                                              That's the difference.  Of course Palestinians don't deserve to get beat just because of who their leaders are - but they will, continually, until a political settlement is reached.  Mindless resistance accomplishes nothing, and Jon would have helped more people by giving his plane ticket money directly to some Palestinian family than everything he did ever in terms of very slightly slowing down military operations that ultimately went through 100% as they were planned.

                                                              Given the fact that the guy's on record as wanting Israel to no longer exist, and the fact that he's done very little humanitarian activity compared to, say, UNRWA, red cross, doctors w/o borders, etc etc, I think he's grinding a political axe MUCH more than trying to help people.

                                                              Where did you stand on that one, btw, would a 2-state solution be ok with you?  

                                                              Cause we should all be on the same side here, the people who are after peace versus annihilation of one side or the other.

                                                              •  Yep. (0+ / 0-)

                                                                I was talking about peaceful protests. Non-violent resistance. It wouldn't have mattered if MLK was present. It wouldn't have mattered if MLK did not exist. If Blacks were participating in peaceful protests, then they would not and did not deserve to get beaten for their efforts.

                                                                jon participates in peaceful protests. And he deserves abuse for peaceful protests? Oh that's right! jon should've expected it. Like Blacks expected the hose and clubs. Blacks should not have protested then. Right?

                                                                Do you want Palestinians to use violence to get a message across or pacificism? Which would you prefer? Which do you think is more effective?

                                                                Please. Just STFU.

                                                                The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:03:35 PM PDT

                                                                [ Parent ]

                                                                •  Non-violence is more effective (0+ / 0-)

                                                                  If the Palestinians tried nonviolent protest exclusively for any length of time they'd have their state.  Hell, if they had fewer people launching violent attacks SPECIFICALLY TO DISRUPT peace negotiations, they'd have their state.  But, in a difference that you and yours are always trying to blur, UNLIKE in the civil rights movement, violence is the predominant method of protest.

                                                                  They found a 3/4 mile tunnel coming out of Gaza today.

                                                                  So, yeah, I don't get where you get off telling me to STFU considering you're the one barging into a dead thread.

                                                                  And what ISM does is manifestly unhelpful compared to any number of groups that work with Palestinians in a development, charity, or political organizing fashion.  Which is fine, it couldn't be any less helpful than bitching on a message board about it.

                                                                  I'm just saying you can't attend a protest and "nonviolently" cross yellow-tape and interfere with armed government forces, stuff like that then cry "repression!" when you have some mild marks from zip ties on your hands after they haul your oh-so-rebellious ass away.  Real adults do things that achieve results, not necessarily making a dramatic statement while doing so.

                                                                  •  Um.... (0+ / 0-)

                                                                    1. Not all Blacks chose non-violence in the 'struggle'.
                                                                    1. Some of the activities by Blacks non-violent activists were illegal during that time.

                                                                    But, in a difference that you and yours are always trying to blur, UNLIKE in the civil rights movement, violence is the predominant method of protest.

                                                                    And what does this have to do with soldiers beating the crap out of non-violent protestors?

                                                                    So, yeah, I don't get where you get off telling me to STFU considering you're the one barging into a dead thread.

                                                                    And you're the hypocrite who keeps replying...

                                                                    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                    by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:01:18 PM PDT

                                                                    [ Parent ]

                                                                    •  quote "non-violent" (0+ / 0-)

                                                                      If you cross marked lines and interfere with soldiers in a war zone, you are LUCKY if all you have happen is you get beaten. There's a different between an actual street protest, which Palestinians do all the time and the only people to break them up are opposing militant groups, and deliberately "non-violently" obstructing government forces.

                                                                      It turns out, even when people deliberately obstruct an ongoing military action, they are very rarely beaten, usually just zip tied and carried safely out of harm's way.  I'm fine with that.  The times they're beaten shouldn't happen, but you play with fire, you get burned.

                                                                      (re-read the above paragraph now, please - it's actually very reasonable)

                                                                      And you tried to blur that difference again.  Key word:  predominant.  

                                                                      •  To expand- (0+ / 0-)

                                                                        If I were "non-violently" crossing a police barricade in a riot situation in the US..

                                                                        I would get my fucking ass beat like you read about - way worse than these ISM kids on average.

                                                                        •  And to expand... (0+ / 0-)

                                                                          Israel should expect rockets in their backyards and suicide bombings in their cities and hatred for generations to come for conducting an illegal, theiving, brutal occupation of a people for 40 years.

                                                                          Fair play.

                                                                          Right?

                                                                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                          by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:29:19 PM PDT

                                                                          [ Parent ]

                                                                          •  Ok by you and jon, I guess, (0+ / 0-)

                                                                            What other country on god's green earth would sit there and take it with the rocket attacks to the extent that Israel has over the last year or so?

                                                                            If mexico tried that shit with us, we'd half-genocide them, and I'm not joking, if Bush wouldn't do it then someone more extreme would get elected.

                                                                            But yeah, ideally, peace negotiations will take place and a withdrawal from 95% or so of the West Bank will start to happen in stages.  You DO want that, right?  You dodged that question the last time.

                                                                          •  I think that was more insightful than you intende (0+ / 0-)

                                                                            d.  Now you get it.  That's where Hamas is.

                                                                            Will you agree to understand that now?

                                                                            •  Naw... (0+ / 0-)

                                                                              I just think you don't get it at all...

                                                                              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                              by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 02:21:34 PM PDT

                                                                              [ Parent ]

                                                                              •  You keep dodging that thing (0+ / 0-)

                                                                                about 2-state solution - is it that hard just to clarify for the record that you'd like to see one?

                                                                                •  Do non-violent protestors deserve beatings? (0+ / 0-)

                                                                                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                                  by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 02:47:39 PM PDT

                                                                                  [ Parent ]

                                                                                  •  I never said deserve, (0+ / 0-)

                                                                                    I specifically said do not deserve, but, you play with fire, you get burned -- and I specifically attached that to the western protesters.  Palestinians I feel bad for and I wanted the occupation ended and a 2-state solution as soon as humanly possible with a degree of security.  I'm on record with that a ton of times.  You're consistent an amazing streak of deliberately misreading me or you've actually gotten dumber which is hard to believe.

                                                                                    So you don't think they should have two states?  

                                                                                    •  'kay... (0+ / 0-)

                                                                                      So, protesters should expect beatings and if anyone sympathizes with them, then he or she should expect someone like you to ridicule their sympathies and also ridicule the people who are getting their asses kicked by thugs with guns. I mean, you have to be a thug to beat the crap out somebody (or shoot them) for actually doing the right thing - like protesting non-violently against an illegal occupation, demolitions, confiscations and so forth instead of shooting the shit out of the perpetuators like it's done down here in the South when strangers so much as 'toe' the yard.

                                                                                      Got it.

                                                                                      You're consistent an amazing streak of deliberately misreading me or you've actually gotten dumber which is hard to believe.

                                                                                      That's cute too...

                                                                                      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                                      by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 03:13:42 PM PDT

                                                                                      [ Parent ]

                                                                                      •  He's not in favor.. (1+ / 0-)

                                                                                        Recommended by:
                                                                                        Terra Mystica

                                                                                        ..of any type of resistence by Palestinians.  jon's activities working with Palestinians in non-violent resistence bug him because the resistence is a thorn in the side of the Israeli army, whose activities he generally supports, and is bad PR for Israel. He's in favor of complete Palestinian surrender and acceptance of whatever scraps Israel is willing to throw them, and if they want to call it a state, fine with him.

                                                                                        All the rest is bullshit.

                                                                      •  Oh, okay then. Now I see... (1+ / 0-)

                                                                        Recommended by:
                                                                        Terra Mystica

                                                                        Palestinians are predominately violent. The same argument can go for Israelis, right?

                                                                        When the IDF wipes out families, destroys schools and homes, then we can attribute this violent behavior to all Israelis. Especially when Israeli settlers vandalize Palestinians homes and abuse Palestinians physcially and Israel does nothing to prevent it or punish the Israeli criminals. Right?

                                                                        I mean, damn the Israelis who actually want to make peace with Palestinians. And damn the Israelis working alongside Palestinians in non-violent protests. And damn the Israelis who want a quick end to the occupation.

                                                                        Hell, they're all violent. Predominantly so. Right? Some Israelis are doing it so all are violent. Right?

                                                                        And an illegal act, is an illegal act. If Palestinians deserve to get beaten for attempting to protect their home, their lands, their businesses, then Blacks deserved to get beaten for attempting to protect their rights. Is that what you're saying, dude? They should expect it and therefore deserve it?

                                                                        Please, man. No more with the cracker-jack logic. People are starting to wonder what the f'ck I'm laughing about...

                                                                        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                        by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:25:19 PM PDT

                                                                        [ Parent ]

                                                                        •  the RESISTANCE is predominantly violent (0+ / 0-)

                                                                          God, you will stop at no amount of misparsing to demonize rather than understand.

                                                                          Why don't you join the ISM too, you can feel all empowered by slowing down a home demolition by 5 minutes.

                                                                          •  Heh... (0+ / 0-)

                                                                            God, you will stop at no amount of misparsing to demonize rather than understand.

                                                                            That's just too cute.

                                                                            Thing is, I have more respect for a person who will stand before an army without arms for something that is right. You know, like Blacks and Jews and even Whites during the Civil Rights movement who broke the laws because the laws were unjust. Like how the occupation is unjust which would make the demolitions and confiscations unjust. But they all should expect the beatings and persecutions because they broke the law. They deserved it didn't they?

                                                                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                                                            by callmecassandra on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 02:46:55 PM PDT

                                                                            [ Parent ]

                                                    •  PS until you change your handle, (0+ / 0-)

                                                      Your problem is obviously with a lot more than the occupation - your handle states in plain english that you consider Tel Aviv "occupied territory"

                                                      So gimme a break.

                                                      •  PS unfounded saying I should change my (0+ / 0-)

                                                        handle is rich indeed, considering you have made one unfounded statement after another; are you trying to beat some sort of personal best?

                                                        the work I do with ISM focuses on the occupation, and in terms of my personal political views, I am an anti-zionist, among other things. I see no problem with that at all.

                                                        Your Tel Aviv nonsense is just bait, and I'm not taking it; if you would like to start with actual serious discussion, though, that would be more than welcome

                  •  Maybe it keeps the sun off his head (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Brecht

                    They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. -Ben Franklin

                    by paxmonger on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 02:12:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  That is not what Ford said. He said anti-semetic (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Dcoronata, paxmonger, jimmyboyo

                  posts were on Daily Kos. Stick to the facts.

                  •  And there have been, (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    BrooklynBlue

                    and you'll find this clown's uprates on them if you go back far enough -- dig a little for carl nyberg and eileen fleming

                    Anyways that wasn't my point.  My point is even if you distinguish wanting to destroy the only jewish nation in existence from anti-semitism, you could certainly understand how someone would fail to understand that?

                    And then to respond to Ford's charges by writing a diary like this that brushes up really close to anti-semitism?  How about say some nice things about jews for once?  That'd be a bit more productive, by, you know, not being anti-semitic.

                    •  I fail to see how (5+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Euroliberal, Brecht, sofia, RAZE, paxmonger

                      the writings of Israeli Jews like Hass, Levy, Avnery and Peled & my experiences/pictures/ideas in any way

                      brushes up really close to anti-semitism

                      And what in the heck is this

                      How about say some nice things about jews for once?

                      I mean, seriously, say something nice about the Jews? Are we in fifth grade or something? I couldn't even imagine saying something like "how about you say something nice about Palestinians/Muslims," I mean seriously, what is up? It's about facing the horror which is being inflicted day in and day out, and doing the right thing to stop it, not saying 'nice things' about peoples/nations/etc so we all can be happy and such... wow....

                      •  The point is, and I'll be serious for one moment (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Doughnutman, Dcoronata

                        That your diary was a bunch of "nyah nyah you are too!" crap - I mean, graffiti?  Huh?  Is that an official action of the Israeli govt or anybody besides a couple wackjobs?

                        Dovetailing it with the Harold Ford thing basically just said "I'm going to try and prove this guy's point by throwing out a bunch of boilerplate negative crap about Israel, how dare he accuse us of being anti-ISrael!"

                        So I've responded with snark and derision.

                        •  I think the graffiti is relevant (4+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia, paxmonger

                          It's not an argument in itself, but its an illustration of an argument. Settler abuse is part of what has made life so miserable for Palestinians in Hebron that thousands of them have left. See B'Tselem:

                          'The main elements of Israel 's separation policy are the severe and extensive restrictions on Palestinian movement and the authorities' systematic failure to enforce law and order on violent settlers attacking Palestinians. The city's Palestinian residents also suffer as a direct result of the actions of Israel 's security forces...

                          Over the years, settlers in the city have routinely abused the city's Palestinian residents, sometimes using extreme violence. Throughout the second intifada, settlers have committed physical assaults, including beatings, at times with clubs, stone throwing, and hurling of refuse, sand, water, chlorine, and empty bottles. Settlers have destroyed shops and doors, committed thefts, and chopped down fruit trees. Settlers have also been involved in gunfire, attempts to run people over, poisoning of a water well, breaking into homes, spilling of hot liquid on the face of a Palestinian, and the killing of a young Palestinian girl.

                          Soldiers are generally positioned on every street corner in and near the settlement points, but in most cases they do nothing to protect Palestinians from the settlers' attacks. The police also fail to properly enforce the law, and rarely bring the assailants to justice. By failing to respond appropriately to settler violence in Hebron , the authorities in effect sanction the settlers' violent acts. These acts, in addition to being severe, have also contributed to the "quiet transfer" of thousands of Palestinians from the City Center.'

                          •  Fixed, like evacuating Hebron? Like last week? (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Doughnutman

                            There was a major evacuation of settlers from Hebron LAST WEEK

                            Which ISrael, as always, receives no credit for whatsoever.  Why should they make goodwill gestures if they just get shit on by the world and receive nothing in return?  

                            Somehow they still keep making them though.

                            •  Hang on (3+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              Brecht, sofia, paxmonger

                              that's a separate point. I'm talking about why the graffiti is relevant. It's relevant as part of the larger campaign of settler intimidation and violence that has made life so miserable for the Palestinians living in that town (those that are left, at any rate).

                              As for last week - it was a very minor evacuation of two families. A new outpost has already sprung up to replace them, and there are still many settlers in Hebron. As Gideon Levy says, two families just ain't enough.

                              •  Well, it's a step, (0+ / 0-)

                                Among lots of other little steps WRT the west bank.

                                What is so g-d infuriating about this is when Israel tries to make good faith efforts, a few things invariably happen

                                -The Palestinians don't reciprocate whatsoever
                                -Militant groups fill the void with increased activity
                                -eurolefties and dkos palestinians don't give them any credit whatsoever
                                -they have to take back the concessions forcibly when attacks rise

                                So, just a little acknowledgement in between your bouts of boilerplate condemnation of Israel would go a long ways.

                                •  Well, and I know you'll find this annoying (2+ / 0-)

                                  Recommended by:
                                  Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia

                                  but it reeeeeeeeally isn't even close to approximating anything like good enough. I don't think it's a "good faith" effort, I don't think it means much when other settlers in Hebron remain cosy on illegally appropriated land and even as construction continues on other, equally illegal settlements and I don't think it's really plausible to suggest that, overnight, the people in charge of Israel's policies in the West Bank suddenly had a total change of heart and decided that the policies of intimidation, violence and aiding the settlers to rid Hebron of Palestinians (as described by B'Tselem) weren't really a good thing after all.

                                  I think what happened in Hebron last week was largely a show designed for public consumption - I think it was just another of Olmert's pathetic "gestures" intended to boost Abbas' political standing and make it seem as though Israel is doing its utmost for peace, even as it does nothing of the sort.

                                  I know you disagree, but I'm no more in the business of clapping governments on the back when I don't believe they deserve it than you are.

                                  (btw, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any "dkos palestinians" left. Oh, except for Ray Hanania.)

                                  •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

                                    and I meant the "israel sucks caucus" but was trying to come up wtih a better term..

                                    Usually when two parties are at total impasse, you have faith building measures.  Small stuff to get dialogue started.  The fact that there's zero modulation in your tone when Israel makes real concessions in exchange for nothing leads me to think that you won't be satisfied when they make bigger concessions - anything times zero is still zero.

                                    So that's just a trigger for me.  Of course it's not "good enough", but let's see, Israel built the PA, they made a very good final status proposal at camp david, they withdrew from gaza in 2005.  All in the last 12 years or so.  In each case, afterwards, nobody gave them anything from the other side and the government that made the concessions fell to a more hardline gov't  (only sort of in the 2005 case but you get what I mean).  Hey, if I were Joe Voter (or Jacob Voter in this case), I'd be like "We tried nice, it didn't work, fuck em!"

                                    That's politics.  Israel has made several attempts.  Were any of them perfect?  In the monday-morning quarterbacking sense of the word, of course not.  But some fairness in blame-apportioning as well as legitimate recognition of good deeds on either side would go a long ways.  And maybe if Israel were rewarded a little better the times they do make a significant leap, or even if they could see a similar leap on the Palestinian side, I'd have a little more sympathy for the "Israel is soooooo horrrrrrible!" point of view.

                                    •  re (4+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      Rusty Pipes, Brecht, sofia, SteppingRazor

                                      Israel has made no concessions at all. What it has done is removed a couple of families who were illegally squatting on Palestinian land, even as it has allowed other illegal squatters to remain and, indeed, even as it is continuing to build new houses, roads, infrastructure, etc. to encourage even +more+ people to go an become illegal squatter on Palestinian land.

                                      Last year alone, 992 tenures for new housing units in the settlements were issued. This year, construction has continued on settlements both east and west of the wall.

                                      I think it is instructive to examine how Israel gets rid of Palestinians who, it says (without merit), are living in a place illegally. What it usually does is informs them that they have so-and-so amount of time to before their house will be demolished, and when that time runs out, they go and they demolish the house. So that's what Israel does when it is really serious about removing people who it claims have no right  to be where they are. The difference between that and last week, and its performance regarding outposts/settlements overall, is vast, and it tells you something.

                                      Another thing - it's wrong for you to call them "concessions". What Israel did last week was no more a "concession" that when a thief returns a bit of stolen property.

                                      'Israel built the PA, they made a very good final status proposal at camp david, they withdrew from gaza in 2005.'

                                      Well, I don't really want to have that discussion again, but briefly: the PA was designed to be Israel's "enforcer" in the territories. May I recommend Shlomo Ben-Ami and Meron Benvenisti on this topic. At Camp David, Barak offered Arafat a bantustan "state" so outrageous that even he could not accept it. The reasons behind the "withdrawal" (redeployment would be more accurate) from Gaza were adequately explained in 2004 by then advisor to Ariel Sharon, Dov Weisglass:

                                      ‘"The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president’s formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians...

                                      The disengagement plan makes it possible for Israel to park conveniently in an interim situation that distances us as far as possible from political pressure. It legitimizes our contention that there is no negotiating with the Palestinians. There is a decision here to do the minimum possible in order to maintain our political situation. The decision is proving itself. It is making it possible for the Americans to go to the seething and simmering international community and say to them, `What do you want.’"

                                      You write:

                                      "But some fairness in blame-apportioning as well as legitimate recognition of good deeds on either side would go a long ways."

                                      Well, that's the thing. I don't think they were good deeds, and even if they were I think whatever 'goodness' that was in them was purely incidental. It is my view, and I think I can support it quite easily, that Israel is not interested in any genuine peace with the Palestinians. It's aim is the creation of a Palestinian "state" divided into separate, de facto non-contiguous cantons, legitimated by the Palestinians and the international community. Until it feels it has a Palestinian partner that would agree to such a thing, its main goal is simply the maintenance of the status quo, perhaps changing it slightly to increase its control over th