Daily Kos

Libertarian Bashing (Again)

Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:13:17 AM PDT

One of my hobby horses is going after libertarians. There are several reasons for this, but lets just condense it to their philosophy has been (mis?)used to justify greed and plutocracy.

The criticism falls into three classes:

  1. It is an incoherent utopian philosophy
  1. It is anti-democratic and breeds selfishness
  1. It is a tool of the super wealthy to foster plutocracy

I've examined the philosophical contradictions before and won't repeat the arguments in detail. Here are the links:
Ayn Rand's Social Policy

The Angry Libertarian

It all boils down to a belief that one should be free to do whatever one wants without the interference of government, except that we need a strong military/police sector to ensure that no one takes my property. This is incoherent.

As for being anti-democratic, this follows directly for point one. A democracy decides what should be done by the tapping into the will of the majority. To the extent that this isn't done properly then the democracy is imperfect, but we are speaking of ideals. Let's take some simple example, like mandatory seat belts. After decades of experience it was decided that this would be a net benefit, because they saved lives and prevented harm to others as well. This is an impermissible imposition on libertarians. It is taking away their "freedom". What they really mean is that they don't want to have to obey laws they disagree with. This is anti-democratic.

Now on to my real point the connection between the super wealthy and libertarianism.

A couple of observations to put things in perspective. Libertarians are a fringe group, especially in economics, yet they get lots of public attention, why? Libertarianism is almost exclusively a US phenomena (there is a small group in the UK), again why? If its truths are so universal why isn't it being studied and adopted everywhere?

To give an example of what usually happens to fringe social and economic utopian ideas consider the case of Henry George. If you have never heard of him, Wikipedia will give you the highlights. At one time he was a famous social philosopher and gave speeches all over the US. There is still a society dedicated to promoting his work. Basically he wanted to replace all taxes with a single tax on land. The details aren't important, his obscurity is.

Modern libertarianism is usually traced back to Ayn Rand and her version called "Objectivism". I'm oversimplifying, but only true believers care about the various factions within the movement. She wrote two popular novels which detailed her philosophy. People who "get" her ideas either become life-long followers or grow out of it. So why has this movement persisted since the 1950's? As I always say, follow the money.

In this case the money comes from a group of super wealthy families some of whom are libertarians and some who are backing it for reasons to be discussed below. I want to highlight one of the most important of these backers - Charles Koch, a man you probably have never heard of. He and his brother control the largest privately owned company in the US - Koch Industries. The influence he has exerted is detailed in this collection of data that I've put together:

Charles Koch and Libertarianism.

Two of his  most important activities have been the funding of the Cato Institute and in providing enough funding to turn the George Mason University economics department into a libertarian stronghold. When a fringe group is assured of generous funding they can do things to promote their cause that ordinary groups can't. They can hire big name thinkers, publish books and white papers, sponsor meetings and workshops, and hire an adequate PR staff.
The money enables the libertarian's ideas to be heard. Those who work at these institutions don't consider themselves as being under the thumb of those who are paying their way, but without the institutional structures made possible by this money they would not have any impact. Libertarians would be as likely to get jobs in big universities as Georgists.

Now why do the super wealthy back libertarianism? It provides an intellectual veneer which justifies greed. To quote Ayn Rand:

The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life."

Not to use their wealth and talent to better society, but "self-interest". This is the law of the jungle, not civilization. So the wealthy are behaving "rationally", they are buying intellectual cover which allows them to continue being plutocrats.

The libertarian intellectuals are also behaving "rationally". They are making a living doing the bidding of the super wealthy. Many probably think that they would be doing this in any case, but I think I've made it clear that without the money behind libertarianism they would be unlikely to find a job which allows them to do this.

I've been criticized because of my highlighting the $23 million given to GMU to support libertarian programs. "Rich people frequently give money to universities to support things they believe in". Establishing an endowed chair and then leaving it up to the staff to pick a suitable person to fill it is one thing, hand picking the faculty is quite another. That universities can behave in a craven manner is not a defense - "they all do it", is a schoolyard excuse. We will leave a discussion of the ethical lapses of universities to others to discuss.

Finally we come to the ordinary blokes who have bought into the philosophy. They are not behaving "rationally". They are neither wealthy, nor being paid to promote the ideas. They are ideologues. They are also deluded. The dream that everyone can become wealthy is an illusion. There is no commonality of interest between the wealthy and the rest of us. We need to work to live, they don't. We will need public services at various points in our lives, they don't. We need to have our infrastructure in good repair, this includes health, education and civil engineering. They can helicopter out, whenever things get too bad.

Many people think that social philosophy can be argued on an intellectual level and the best ideas will out, but in the US these days, the deck is stacked. One side is wielding ideas and the other is using money to promote their ideas, buying up media access, and politicians. It's not a fair fight and the sooner the left realizes this the better.

I think there needs to be a conscious effort whenever a partisan spokesmen is being engaged in a debate of policy to establish who is paying for their efforts. Organizations like SourceWatch are trying to do this, but everyone can pitch in if they have some additional information. I think you will find that very few on the right are untainted by the money of the plutocracy.

In a sense this is what scares them about the rise of the left-leaning blogosphere. In general no one is paying us for our efforts. If we can continue to avoid being corrupted by money we will win not only because our ideas are more just, but because we can't be bought.

Tags: libertarianism, wealth, Charles Koch (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  I thought I heard Markos say he was (0+ / 0-)

    more a Libertarian on Charlie Rose the other night.

    Sic him robertdfeinman! ;-)

    Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything. Harry S. Truman

    by deepsouthdoug on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:15:32 AM PDT

  •  How libertarian is Wall Stree these days? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DaleA, cpresley, lams712, Tam in CA

    I knew this story would come in handy.  From today's Financial Times...

    Socialism is for capitalists

    When William Poole, chairman of the St Louis Federal Reserve, said that "the Fed should respond to market upsets only when it has become clear that they threaten to undermine achievement of fundamental objectives of price stability and high employment or when financial market developments threaten market processes themselves", I gave a cheer.

    Not so Jim Cramer, hedge fund manager and television pundit, who declared last Friday that chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, "is being an academic!...My people have been in this game for 25 years. And they are losing their jobs and these firms are going to go out of business, and he’s nuts! They’re nuts! They know nothing! . . .  The Fed is asleep."

    So capitalism is for poor people and socialism is for capitalists. This view is not just offensive. It is catastrophic.

    "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

    by New Deal democrat on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:20:58 AM PDT

    •  This is the same Cramer (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      ...who now tells investors to avoid any company that has ever seen a mortgage, when previously he was pumping (and dumping?) the homebuilders.

      Today, McMansion builder Toll Brothers is trading at $22, down from its peak over $50 in July 2005. And what was Cramer saying then? Buy buy BUY!!:

      Bubbleheads, Admit Defeat by Housing

      By Jim Cramer


      RealMoney.com Columnist

      6/16/2005 10:11 AM EDT  

      Homebuilders

         * The people who've said to bet against housing and to be worried about the speculative boom in homes look wrong now.


         * Yet Toll's at a high and housing stocks are outperforming other groups.

         * We must be willing to hold these bubbleheads accountable for being wrong.

      As Toll Brothers (TOL - commentary - Cramer's Take - Rating) cruises through $100, it's time to hold the bubbleheads accountable. Who are the bubbleheads, in my book? Those are the people who have told you to bet against housing and to be worried about the speculative boom in homes.

      Here's where I am coming from. All day, I listen to and read people who say that housing's got to roll over, that these companies can't work, that it is just a matter of time. Then I look to see what's been outperforming these stocks. Is it drugs? I don't think so. Financials? Nah. Techs? Nope, not at all. Now I want to know when those who have warned us incessantly or told us it can't last will get their comeuppance.

      http://www.thestreet.com/...

      Cramer was a main promoter of the housing bubble, ridiculing anyone who raised an alarm as "bubbleheads." After the homebuilders started to slide mid-2005, he was for months saying that a bottom was forming and it was time to get back in.

      Comeuppance time for Cramer.

    •  'Twas always thus (0+ / 0-)

      No functioning capitalist economy has ever operated on pure laissez-faire principles.  No one in a capitalist society would ever support that once she or he contemplated the full implications of such.

      Here's the deal:  you can't have capitalism (at least as we understand it) without a state.  At a minimum, you have to have some kind of third-party authority that can do things such as enforce contacts.  Once you've introduced the state, you've opened up political space for the constant back-and-forth negotiation (if you at the same time believe in democracy) of the proper role of that state.

      Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

      by Linnaeus on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:06:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And in the end you get Corporate Monopolism (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Linnaeus

        for a government, with a government bought and paid for by monopolistic corporations who basically make the population in servitude.

        Hmm, not that different that we have today. It's another kind of extremism that screws 99% of the population.

        (BTW- I'm agreeing with you)

        "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

        by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:22:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I understood you (0+ / 0-)

          Corporate monopolism is one possible outcome, because corporations have personhood that gives them an ability to work in the political arena.

          It need not be that way, because in a democracy, you can have countervailing power that takes part in the political negotiation of the proper role of the state.

          Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

          by Linnaeus on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:12:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Randbert (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Linnaeus, Bouwerie Boy, lams712, bythesea

      I'm no expert on the internal splits and fissures of the "libertarian" movement, which are usually pretty vicious, but it's my understanding that Randroids and Libertarians hold each other in mutual contempt, and that Randroids don't refer to themselves as Libertarians.  The berts may or may not enjoy Rand's novels, but I don't think they'd agree that libertarianism derives from Rand's philosophy; rather, that Rand stole and twisted bits of libertarian dogma for her own purposes.  That is to say, that Rand and her groupies are considered wackoids even by the wacky standards of the berts themselves.

  •  Almost Nobody in Libertarianism or Conservatism (1+ / 0-)

    are also deluded. The dream that everyone can become wealthy is an illusion.

    Well not in this way, certainly none that I've ever met.

    They simply believe in the rule that government must not intervene in the economy.

    They expect and they are perfectly happy with the huge spread in outcomes of wealth, health, safety and opportunity that result from operating industrial/ information age economies by libertarian rules.

    They feel it's up to the individual or to whatever private-sector institutions they may construct to help them cope with the threats and opportunities available after the strong have taken their fill.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:31:06 AM PDT

    •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)

      Most libertarians - at least the ones I've known - are not "deluded".  They know, more or less, what the likely outcomes of their economic and political philosophy are.  They simply believe those outcomes are the right ones.

      Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

      by Linnaeus on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:53:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Going after libertarians" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lams712, Boreal Ecologist

    It's just good, wholesome fun, like Parcheesi.

    Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

    by Cheez Whiz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:32:28 AM PDT

  •  What utter bullshit... (5+ / 0-)

    ...yes, libertarianism is "anti-democratic", in the exact same sense as the First Amendment.

    The notion is that certain rights, like say Freedom of Religion, trump democracy.  I can't fucking believe I have to explain this to people who are involved in American politics.  

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:41:14 AM PDT

    •  I call BS on your comment (0+ / 0-)

      Constitution vs. laws:

      Freedom of religion is in the first Amendment.  Even that could be overcome by a sufficient supermajority.

      RDF:  "What they really mean is that they don't want to have to obey laws they disagree with."

      I can't believe I have to explain to someone involved in American politics that in a republican democracy, if you believe the law is unconstitutional, take it to court; otherwise. you have to obey the laws even if you disagree with them.  

      "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

      by New Deal democrat on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:06:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't know what you're talking about... (0+ / 0-)

        ...and neither does RDF.

        What we believe is that certain laws ought not be laws, because they exceed what we consider the Constitutional scope of our democracy.  And (shock of shocks!) that losing an appeal in court is not simply the end of the conversation as to what the proper scope of the law is.

        The courts, for example, believe that Federal marijuana prohibition trumps states' medical marijuana laws.  Should we just give up then?  Or should we keep talking about changing the law?

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:08:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And in the meantime (0+ / 0-)

          after the courts rule against you becuase you believe that the laws "exceed what we consider the Constitutional scope of our democracy", do you obey them?

          That ought to be a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

          And if the answer is "no", then you are no different than any self-appointed commissar wheterh left or right.

          "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

          by New Deal democrat on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:23:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Um... (0+ / 0-)

            ...you see a lot of libertarians advocating illegal medical marijuana trading?  Libertarians do not advocate ignoring the laws you don't believe in, a handful of crazy tax protesters aside.

            No aspect of libertarian philosophy suggests that you should disobey unjust laws outside of the frame of civil disobedience.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:26:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Wasnt Federal designed to be limited in scope (0+ / 0-)

          To external affairs, internal civil rights, and interstate trade, and taxes.
          Feds interfering in a States medical law just seems illegal, and pointless.
          Going by the Bill of Rights, Feds can enable but not disable.

          Morality is the single most important issue.

          by Ferrofluid on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 04:03:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Money (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lams712

      You do realize this essay is about money and not about the various beliefs of certain philosophical factions.

      I only put all that in as background for those who aren't up on all the details. If you want to debate the virtues of libertarianism or whatever flavor you support why not write your own diary. I'm sure we will all be happy to participate.

  •  A bit more about Koch (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DaleA

    From Thomas Franks' "What's the Matter with Kansas?"

    The Kansas sensibility with which Vernon Smith is most closely connected is not that of populism, but Koch Industries, the nation's second-largest privately held company.  Based in Wichita, Koch's primary business is oil, but itis far better known for its owners' openhanded political activities than for its petroleum operations.  The founder of the dynasty, Fred Koch, was a charter member of the John Birch Society.  His billionaire son Charles founded the libertarian Cato Institute in 1977, and another billionaire son, David, ran for vice president on the Libertarian ticket in 1980.  Koch money flowed through Triad Management Services, which delivered such crucial assistance to Sam Brownback's senate campaign in 1996; and Koch money, mingled with the money of so many other oil interests, supported the presidential campaign of Geroge W. Bush.  Most important, though, Koch money subsidizes the mass production of bad ideas, zany free-market policy recommendations that usually aim to starve or otherwise disable government while making business ever more profitable.  When I read that right-wing Kansas state legislators were proposing that the state sell off of its highway system, for example, I knew instantly that Koch money was somehow involved in nurturing this daft notion.  Koch money props up such hothouses of the right as Reason magazine, the Manhattan Institute, the Heartland Institute, Citizens for a Sound Econony, and the Democratic Leadership Council.  The Koch's influence is so well-known in Washington that wags refere to their intellectual empire as "the Kochtopus."  It is the Populists' "money power" in the flesh.

    Koch money has also been instrumental in advancing the academic career of Vernon L. Smith.  He was brought to George Mason University by a Koch Foundation grant; he is employed there by the Koch-funded Mercatus Center; his writing is published by the Koch-funded Cato Institute;p and his market-worshipping ideas are praised to the skies by the Koch-funded Reason Institute, whose Web site includes an item referencing Smith's Nobel Prize as all-trumping evidence of his rightness.  "Believe him," it commands.  A more straightforward take on Smith's Nobel and the credibility that it instantly generated for his bad ideas came from Charles Koch, who said, simply, "The Koch Foundation's gift was an excellent investment.

    Vernon L. Smith was the winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize for economics.

  •  True L believers are scary, actually. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lams712

    There is one who posts a column in our papers "writers group" about once a month.
    She seems to honestly believe that there should be the ability to subscribe to different levels of police and fire protection and that people will pay for clean drinking water if it's important to them.
    She also has mentioned having a voluntary donation system to support public schools and for roads.

    "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

    by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:54:51 AM PDT

    •  I'm a moderate libertarian (0+ / 0-)

      But I will point out that we currently have the ability to subscribe to different levels of police and fire protection and pay extra for water.

      Private security firms and alarm systems are a booming business and bottled water pours off the shelf at higher prices than gasoline.

      I do think that we should have joint support of schools and roads as common infrastructure, however I prefer single payor schools rather than the current system of government schools (mislabeled as public in an Orwellian newspeak manner).

      •  C'mon, get real. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lams712

        She's talking basic levels financed that way. That would lead to anarchy.
        Most libertarians that I've run into, when you push them, don't like funding anything that they do not percieve a direct and immediate economic benefit for, and there's the wink and nod racism.

        "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

        by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:02:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, well I do (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          UndercoverRxer, Tam in CA

          I think that an infrastructure is a common investment and taxing people is an appropriate way to get the funds.  I do worry about taxes that one group applies to another, but it's how societies work.  I think it should be applied sparingly.

          I think that one of the problems libertarians have is that very few people who are, at heart, libertarians go as far as the ones who currently make up the libertarian party.  If the libertarian party had a real chance of governing, you would see an influx of moderates and it would be much more like the libertarian wings of the Republican and Democratic parties.

          •  I'll give you that. (0+ / 0-)

            There are a lot of little L libertarians these days. Many who seem to be Republicans who can't admit it.

            The person I'm referring to in my local paper appears to be a right-wing evangelical whose had a run-in with the local school system over her kid preaching in the hallways of school. She runs a small business and wonders why, in a very liberal college town, her sales have plummeted since she's been ranting in the paper.

            "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

            by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:07:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  "Strong Police Sector" (1+ / 0-)

    That's Clintonism, not libertarian.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:55:16 AM PDT

  •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jay Elias

    Despite their political leanings my daughter got an excellent education at GMU.  They are definitely libertarian as far as the economics department and the school itself is right leaning.  My daughter, however, managed to get an economics major and a math and global affairs minor and she is still a democrat.  She was the first economics major from GMU to be accepted into a top five phd program. I am hardly going to quibble about where the university gets its endowment.  Plus, I think it is important for democrats to stop being so holier than thou when it comes to think tanks and institutions like Cato.  The only way to make a difference is to infiltrate them from the inside, not throw rocks from the outside.

    If you are in DC see Man of La Mancha at the Church Street Theater opening 7/10/08

    by BDA in VA on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:21:59 AM PDT

  •  The Constitution is libertarian (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jay Elias, Ferrofluid

    but the federal government is written to have a negative rights function to serve the desires/ needs of the country as a whole.

    In other words, as the Ninth Amendment gives us, every citizen defines for him or herself what rights are inherent in that individual.  I can claim I have the right to do anything I want as long as it does not purposefully trample on the rights of another.  The federal or state government can only take away rights, not grant them, and they can do this if there are health, safety, security, economic, ownership, etc., issues in the expression of what I deem are my rights that curtail the rights of others, especially the most basic rights of all as espoused in the Declaration (which does have judicial standing through precedence), i.e., life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    It is certainly correct to state that the libertarian title has been overtaken by putative plutocrats and it is being able to see through this that has led so many to move over to the D side.

    As for the seatbelt example, if I have no one who relies on me for monetary or physical support, how can it be claimed to be fair that the state is going to force me to wear a seatbelt?  If I die, I'm dead, it was my choice.

    Forcing kids into child safety seats?  Absolutely since children can't make such life and death decisions for themselves with all the consequences in mind and an adult deciding for the child that the child needs no such equipment is quite clearly an abuse of the child's right as an endangerment.

    But, why must an adult on whom no one relies be forced into it?  Of course, then you get into enforcement issues when the law is so narrowly defined as to exclude a group like that so it may make sense to force all just from a practical standpoint.  However, that is the argument and the justification is, as it often is, the slippery slope.

    Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

    by lgrooney on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:24:54 AM PDT

    •  And in another scenario.. (0+ / 0-)

      As for the seatbelt example, if I have no one who relies on me for monetary or physical support, how can it be claimed to be fair that the state is going to force me to wear a seatbelt?  If I die, I'm dead, it was my choice.

      But let's put you in the common circumstance of you didn't wear your belt, you are not in a fatal accident, but you are paralyzed. Your insurance runs out in about 5 days in the ICU. Would you be willing to be thrown on the street? Or if your medical insurance gets you through your hospital and rehab, but you can't work. Ready to beg on street corners?

      Would you be willing to sign away any future governmental benefits, including any publically funded EMS responding to your accident, for the right to go seatbeltless?

      "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

      by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:18:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If I was an unrepentant and honest (0+ / 0-)

        libertarian, I would.  Alas...

        Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

        by lgrooney on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:26:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is the usual answer I get. (0+ / 0-)

          We evolved within a cooperative society, and upon introspection, most libertarians really want the good things that cooperative actions brings, they just want to pay for it.

          "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

          by UndercoverRxer on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:11:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, hell yeah! (0+ / 0-)

            That's the biggest lie in civilization, i.e., progress essentially means luxuries eventually move to everyman's goods and then eventually to needs.  Furthermore, as long as we do live in a society, any form of absolute individualism / libertarianism beyond one's own head is out the door because, to a large degree, we all must succumb to the written and unwritten rules that make civilization civil.  TJ's desire to see America as a nation of gentlemen landowning farmers is a genteel, libertarian framework, and I think the absolute ideal of America albeit one temporally interpreted much as the framework provided by the Constitution, but as soon as you trade goods, engage in any discourse with another, decide what consists of the boundaries of property, who settles any disputes, what rules are assigned to the settlement of disputes, decide that defense should be collective, etc., any absolutist visions are moot.

            Oh and, by the way, while the Ninth Amendment is my second favorite (after the First), there are no libertarians I know of that would want to claim me... lest you get the wrong idea.  I am simply stating some of the reasonings and rationales behind libertarian ideals.  I provide no endorsement beyond the fact that the framework of those ideals are what gave us our Constitution.

            Just as the small-government, anti-moral legislation, limited-foreign engagement, no-subsidies, small- and balanced-budget conservatives have been taken over by the overpaid corporate suit looking to abuse the ideology's name for advantage almost directly counter to all of those ideals, so too libertarianism... and a certain strain of Democrats.

            Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

            by lgrooney on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:47:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  You die in a car wreck due to no seat belt (0+ / 0-)

      Some poor sod has to clean up the messy puddle,
      wearng a seatbelt you live and less mess to clean up.

      Morality is the single most important issue.

      by Ferrofluid on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 04:08:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree totally with everything you say... (0+ / 0-)

    ...when I was a political science student in the early 1990s libertarianism was a very "trendy" philosophy and was one of the faster-growing groups on campus. We even had members of the Libertarian Party come to campus and give their short quiz and map out their version of the policitical spectrum.

    I do disagree with one thing, though:

    Libertarians are a fringe group, especially in economics, yet they get lots of public attention,

    Although it is most blatant at GMU, I would say that libertarianism is not a fringe group, but a very COMMONPLACE philosophy in economic departments all over the US, and has been that way since the late 1970s and early 1980s. The free-market worshipping was so bad that it was one of the main reasons why I dropped out of graduate school in economics in the late 1990s.

    "...if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine...." {-8.13;-5.59}

    by lams712 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:07:48 AM PDT

  •  Bashing the left Libertarians (0+ / 0-)

    just because they share ground with middle road and right leaning Libs, seems like a good way to hand 08 over to the Republicans.

    Morality is the single most important issue.

    by Ferrofluid on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 04:05:23 PM PDT

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