Daily Kos

Proof of Scientology Fraud!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:36:33 AM PDT

Two things came up recently that I feel are significant.
One, a champion boxer/cocaine addict, one Johnny Tapia, had to leave Scientology front group Second Chance due to "health issues."

The second was a letter of complaint from Scientology lawyers to Google, seeking the removal of devastating "confidential information" about their Purification Rundown.

That information is now on the web, whether Google pulls it in accordance to Scientology's request or not. We have it. It's fair use. Now you have it too.

It was bound to happen sooner or later, high-profile figure suffers health problems while undergoing a Scientology "treatment."

The Albuquerque Journal featured a story about boxing champion Johnny Tapia, who was sent to Albuquerque's state-funded Second Chance program.

Second Chance is basically the same thing as Narconon, only with inmates as its target. It involves taking Scientology courses as well as their "Purification Rundown," a bit of Hubbardian junk science that has been reviewed and discarded as nonsense by legitimate medical personnel.

The Purification Rundown is a Scientology detox treatment invented by science fiction writer/college dropout L. Ron Hubbard. Involving toxic doses of niacin coupled with dangerously long sauna sessions, it can result in permanent liver damage and blindness from the levels of niacin administered. Yet, somehow, programs which include this debunked "therapy" are still getting the green light from legislators who are either uninformed, ignorant, or under Scientology influence. When an organization worth billions of dollars has your ear, you might listen to the sound of donations piling up in your campaign chest.

Or, you might be too damned busy to look past the brightly colored, glossy brochures extolling the virtues of the program. Either way, the taxpayers lose, and scofflaws are involuntarily forced into exposure to Scientology teachings and potentially dangerous quackery.

Tapia was sent to Second Chance by court order. The Journal reports, "Former boxing champion Johnny Tapia has been released from a drug-rehab program because of a medical problem that complicates his treatment, Assistant District Attorney Mark Drebing said Friday."

Of course, we won't hear what the exact nature of the medical problem really is, but might it be due to spending 5 hours in a sauna while slurping down cooking oil and toxic doses of niacin?

Assistant District Attorney Drebing had this to say, "It's not that he wasn't doing well," Drebing said. "It was just that some health issues were raised and because of (some treatment conflicts) with the program, alternatives are being looked into."

Treatment conflicts? Tapia has a seventeen year record of problems with cocaine. Chronic users of cocaine and other other substances often suffer liver damage and are not in the best of health to begin with. So why are Albuquerque courts assigning addicts to this medically unsound, thoroughly debunked Scientology quackfest?

It is astonishing that a program like Second Chance would even be allowed to get its hands on these vulnerable people, let alone spend public money to fund it.

Scientology seems to have focused on the Four Corner states in its attempt to install its programs in state prisons and court systems.
Utah, Arizona and Nevada rejected them. One out of three isn't bad, considering New Mexico is the state that spent money on talking urinal cakes to warn bar patrons not to drink and drive. Perhaps it's no surprise that New Mexico fell for the glib claims of Second Chance success. These claims are easily disproven, for they contain inaccurate, misleading and outright false information, coupled with anectdotal meaningless testimonials.

The lack of effort spent in researching critical information on these Scientology front groups is a serious problem at legislative levels. These are the people who determine whether or not a program gets the green light and thousands of green dollars.
The best sources of critical information are easily found on the web with a google search. Scientology knows this, and does its best to get these critical sites taken down, with little success. Once in a while, it does manage, but by the time it does, the information is already "out there" on the web.

A good recent example of this is outlined on Chilling Effects. In this case, the ruling body of Scientology, the Religious Technology Center, or RTC, sent a complaint to Google about copyrighted information being posted.
In the complaint, RTC's legal team states, "We also represent Bridge Publications, Inc. ("BPI"), exclusive licensee of the copyrights to the published works of the Scientology religion, which includes the work, "Purification Rundown Case Data Purification Rundown Case Data," registration number TX 1 328 179, and "The Nature of a Being," registration number TX 3-090-515."

This is valuable as confirmation that the material posted is genuine.
And it's little wonder that the "church" of Scientology would not want this information available to outsiders. Take this little gem, for example:

"The Purification Rundown is a Spiritual activity based on and administered according to the doctrine and practices of the religion of Scientology as set forth in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and adopted by the Church. No part of the Rundown is intended as the diagnosis, prescription for, or treatment of any bodily or physical condition or ill."

I would like to ask the Albuquerque District Attorney why a program that includes a "spiritual activity" in a way contraindicated by church documents themselves is being utilized and court mandated in this manner.

"No part of the Rundown is intended as the diagnosis, prescription for, or treatment of any bodily or physical condition or ill."

Is this sentence incomprehensible? The Purification Rundown is used by Narconon, Criminon, Second Chance and the New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project. Hundreds of naive, hopeful people have had their health put at risk by placing trust in a Scientology front group! Others are put at risk by judges who either support the program or know little about it.

Here it is, right from the source! "No part of the Rundown is intended as the diagnosis, prescription for, or treatment of any bodily or physical condition or ill."

Yet this is precisely what they're using in their "secular" programs! This sentence cannot say it any plainer, it's a religious ritual which does nothing.

Despite all the solid evidence weighing against the Purification Rundown, the cult still manages to scrape up supporters for it.

Last year it was reported that NYC councilwoman Margarita Lopez shoveled over $600,000 of public money into the NY Rescue Workers Detoxification Project, which opened to great fanfare when Tom Cruise arrived to promote it.

The current New Yorker shilling for this front group is
Councilman Hiram Monserrate, who seems to think it's the best thing since crunchy peanut butter. Who doesn't think that a regimen of toxic vitamins is a Good Thing for rescue workers exposed to potentially dangerous substances? Show of hands? (it should be noted here that, in keeping with Scientology beliefs about pharmaceutical drugs, firemen have reported being urged to quit taking any medication they might be on. Can you say "practicing medicine without a license?")

The best way to fight this fraud is by informing yourself and your local government. Scientology is very good at influencing the naive, ignorant and greedy. They invite "opinion leaders" to glitzy events.
They have front groups bestow awards on those they would like to cultivate. And then, they trot out their stable of celebrities! Like some lurking online pedophile, they groom the naive, become their friend and advisor.

This isn't a religious issue. It's simply an issue of a powerful cult selling a fraudulent product to suck up public money, while using that opportunity to indoctrinate and recruit new members.
Cult spokespersons deny that there is any link between Scientology and these secular front group programs, despite the fact that the elements used are identical to the courses purchased by practicing Scientologists. This is a blatant and easily disprovable lie.
You've got to wonder, what keeps these politicians from seeking the truth about the Purification Rundown and Scientology?

Are they afraid Tom Cruise will no longer take their calls?

Tags: Scientology, fraud, Second Chance, New York, New Mexico, Johnny Tapia, Margarita Lopez (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 69 comments

  •  An unholy mess (8+ / 0-)

    Great catch, Xenubarb - thank you.
    Please put up a tip jar.

  •  Recommended (13+ / 0-)

    Opposing Scientology is a progressive cause.

    •  A person's faith is really none of anyone else's (0+ / 0-)

      business. That's exactly how millions of Jews, Muslims and other religious minorities were persecuted and killed over the years. Scientology maybe a bogus religion to you, but people have their own minds, their own souls and beliefs. The moment you oppose their faith, is the moment your faith should be questioned by others as well. Just leave them alone. Christians have proselytized to me a thousand times more than Scientologists do. This blog goes ape over right wing Christians, but doesn't expand that to all Christians. How would you react if all Jews and Muslims think all Christians are crazy?

      You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

      by tazz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:59:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You clearly don't know what the hell you are (8+ / 0-)

        talking about here tazz - or you're a scientologist - either way you're not clued into how dangerous this cult actually is.

        •  My daughter is a Scientologist (0+ / 0-)

          and she is far from right wing politically. When it comes to my daughter and her faith, I clearly know what I'm talking about. FYI, I am Agnostic.

          You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

          by tazz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:03:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is a predatory cult not a religion. (9+ / 0-)

            If they did not use predatory tactics and were not known to stalk people to get them in or when they've decide to leave, I would pick no bone with them.  But they are predatory and they are dangerous especially to people who have problems with depression etc.

          •  You're A Scientology Apologist (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            alizard, YetiMonk

            Well, at least you've revealed why you're speaking up for Scientology forcing people to suck down their indoctrination in government funded and ordered "rehab".

            Why don't you examine more closely your failure to protect your daughter from the cult she's in, instead of acting like you have any credibility on religion?

            "Agnostic" but your daughter's a Scientologist. What a cop out. Which is your prerogative. But don't go spreading your weakness in the face of dangerous cults like you're "morally superior".

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:48:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  there is a difference between a CULT (5+ / 0-)

        and a religion, it may be difficult to sort them out but it can be done, slippery slope arguments are for the lazy, Scientology is a cult and a particularly dangerous one at that.

        "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

        by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:02:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think all religions are cults (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cometman, KansasLiberal

          You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

          by tazz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:05:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But most are in fact free of charge. (3+ / 0-)

            Not so with Scientology.

            There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

            by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:11:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I hope you don't mind that I defend my daughter (0+ / 0-)

              from a prejudicial headline clearly stating her faith and beliefs are a fraud. I am sure the fact that you stereotype people who don't believe like you are phony, but to me, no one gives more money to a cult than the Catholic Church. To me, no other people are so indoctrinated and subservient to a religion than Catholics. I don't see Scientologist bombing abortion clinics or claiming people will go to hell if they don't take a long dead Jewish Rabbi as their god and savior. Sorry, I really don't appreciate someone calling my daughter a fraud. And I apologize to any Catholics, I was trying to point out that going after anyone's personal faith is not a great cause.

              You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

              by tazz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:18:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think that you misread the title. (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart, trashablanca

                The title is "Proof of Scientology Fraud" not 'Proof Scientology IS A Fraud' or even 'Proof that Scientologists ARE Frauds.'  This diary is simply pointing out a fraud perpetuated by Scientology.  

                My dream ticket in 2008? John Edwards-Kathleen Sebelius

                by KansasLiberal on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:26:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  First off, I agree, they are ALL cults (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                alizard, inclusiveheart, Dartagnan

                And I'm not calling your daughter a fraud anymore than I'm calling my sister a misogynistic, exploiter of ignorant people (Catholic).

                I believe my sister, and your daughter to be victims.

                But given that, I do see a distinction between an organization that requests donations, and one that requires money in exchange for advancement along levels of enlightenment that purport to involve gaining powers that defy physics.

                Seriously, no offense meant toward your daughter. But Scientology is a seriously scary organization. It is set up primarily as a profit machine.

                You say you are an agnostic. I myself see dispassionate rationality as being the cornerstone of that perspective.

                There is a logical fallacy known as appeal to consequences. An example of this might be, "There has to be a God, because if there isn't, then life is pointless and we just die."

                I suggest that you keep that in mind as you defend Scientology. It seems that you are so eager to protect your daughter's standing, that you are unwilling to see Scientology for what it is.

                Scientology is a very scary organization with a history of exploiting its lower members to the extreme and doing threatening things to those who walk away.

                Your daughter is involved with them. You ignore the facts at your daughter's peril.

                There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

                by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:37:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're a Hypocrite (0+ / 0-)

                You just called your daughter's "religion" a cult. But you're insisting on letting our government fund and order Scientology indoctrination.

                You're free to leave your daughter in a cult. But don't force the rest of us to accept our government helping you do it.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:49:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry I have no patience with your argument (3+ / 0-)

                The headline of this diary does not "insult" your daughter. It appears to insult you.  In my opinion, and possibly the opinion of the diarist and others responding to it, Scientology deserves to be excoriated and vilified because it is, in our opinion, demonstrably dangerous. Www.xenu.net, a site which are you are no doubt familiar, could shed some light on this to you.  Holding up your daughter's "faith" is a dodge, as you are attempting to personalize what is actually a criticism of Scientology's methods. Your daughter is not being called a "fraud."  A cult that seeks to intimidate, silence, harrass, and economically assault its critics can, however, accurately be termed a "fraud" when it purports to represent a "religion."

                Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

                by Dartagnan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:55:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Is Your Daughter Named 'Scientology?' (0+ / 0-)

                Nobody called your daughter a fraud, unless your daughter is the corporate entity doing business under the name Scientology.

                Nope, she's just another victim of this destructive cult.

                THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

                by xenubarb on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:06:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  in a way yes, but to different degrees (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            KansasLiberal

            scientology is dangerous, at least you speak to your daughter, but i hope she and her family don't have any mental health issues.

            "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

            by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:12:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My daughter is a teacher who has (0+ / 0-)

              won awards for community activism and achievements. My grandchildren are fine and no more neurotic than the average Christian child. FYI, my son-in-law I believe is still an Atheist.

              You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

              by tazz on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:23:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Yep--about 100 years. (0+ / 0-)

          Ah, but does the Buddha have cat nature?
          --dallasdave ca. 2008

          by dallasdave on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:16:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The difference between a cult..... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          KansasLiberal

          and a religion is decided by whether one is a member of one of these groups or not.

          It is purely a subjective opinion.

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:20:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  nope (3+ / 0-)

            methinks the followers or ex-follows of Jim Jones may disagree with you.

            "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

            by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:30:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Jones followers believed in his 'religion'... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DocGonzo, tazz

              His opponents considered it a 'cult'.  

              The Catholic Church has millions of followers who believe that they are literally eating the flesh of their god once a month at communion.  That sound like a fairly ghoulish practice to me, one that is worthy of a 'cult'.  But millions of people obviously disagree.

              That's the point I was trying to make- it all depends what side of the fence you're sitting on.

              "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

              by cometman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:47:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ok (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                cometman, Scientician

                the short answer is as non-members can evaluate a group from the outside and determine whether a group is a cult or not. true there's no bright line, but at one end you have cults and on the other groups like the catholic church (of which i am not member).

                "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

                by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:02:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  A lot of people were shot in the back trying to (0+ / 0-)

                escape Jim Jones' "love".  Shot dead - as was a Congressman who went there to escort people out of that compound who wanted to leave and were not able to because of a meniacal and insane cult leader.

                That is how you know it was really a cult.

                I have not heard of any incidences of the Pope having people shot when they have decided to leave the Catholic Church.

                Trust me - I had to think a lot about what the differences were between traditional religious institutions and cults because I had three close friends join three different cults when I was growing up in SF - where Jim Jones started btw.  One girl I knew spent a weekend in a closet at some Moonie's house.  Scary sh*t.

                The whole cult experience left me thinking that all organized religion is pretty weird, but there is something distinctively different about how a cult works and that has much to do with the fact that cults are generally very predatory and often engage in retribution towards people who attempt to leave.

      •   With all respect, Scientology is not a faith. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Boreal Ecologist

        It is a vicious, mind-warping cult.

        Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

        by Dartagnan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:14:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And that is subject to interpretation. (0+ / 0-)

          Having been subjected to 12 years of Catholic education, I could make some serious arguments that almost all religions have cult-like tendancies.

          Some cults are just so old and powerful that they become religions.

          There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

          by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:41:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  check out (0+ / 0-)

            www.xenu.net

            and read up on the contemporary behaviour of scientology.

            It is not comparable in any sense to the behaviour of catholicism (at least in modern terms).

            •  Oh I agree (0+ / 0-)

              but I don't think it's really an organization's behaviour that determines whether or not it is a cult.

              My thought is that really, what happens over time is that the more "reasonable" a cult behaves, and the more it can moderate itself, the sooner a "cult" becines a part of society at large and makes the transition to religion.

              If David Koresh had lived 2,000 years ago, there could very well have been a hard-core group of survivors that kept his name alive and embellished his feats and maybe even his mortality.

              Eventually, the unique properties of that "cult" become more and more accomodating to the wants and needs of the societies within which they function. It appropriates other similar sects, and eventually acquires an aura of inevitability and respectability.

              In other words, cults are new, religions are old. The terms actually better represent points on a continuum. Chances are, if Scientology survives for 1,000 years, it will have had to shed its more extreme characteristics, and will probably be referred to as a religion without anyone batting an eye.

              There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

              by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:56:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Religions of faith... (3+ / 0-)

        ...as a general rule take free will (and that entails) seriously.

        That's why, for example,  if you walk out of your Baptist church after 20 years of faithful service,  the worse you will suffer is a barrage of short-lived gossip from the congregation.

        Cults, on the other hand, deem free will a weakness & threat.

        That's why, for example, if you walk away from  Scientology after 20 years of faithful service, your life, more than likely, is going to become... uncomfortable.  

        "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."-Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi Republican.

        by wyvern on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:33:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Government Sponsored Mandatory Proselytizing (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        inclusiveheart, YetiMonk

        We're talking about government funded, government ordered "proselytizing" of people locked in a cell.

        If Jews, Muslims and Christians did that, then hell yes it would be our business. If it were our government.

        People have the right to believe whatever crazy superstitious nonsense they prefer. They do not have the right to force anyone else to believe it, or even listen to it if they don't want to. And certainly not on government funds or government orders.

        What are you, some kind of theocrat? Now that is crazy.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:46:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What does religion have to do with it? (0+ / 0-)

        Did you miss this sentence in my blog?

        "This isn't a religious issue. It's simply an issue of a powerful cult selling a fraudulent product to suck up public money, while using that opportunity to indoctrinate and recruit new members."

        I could not put it more clearly. Public money is not an infinite commodity, and it should be put to more careful use.

        THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

        by xenubarb on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:03:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  a bit trite, comparing this to anti-semitism (0+ / 0-)

        Show me the "fair game" doctrine within the Jewish faith.

        Show me the officially sanctioned Muslim special forces like the Sea Org of Scientology.

        How much does it cost to be a Jew?  I guarantee it costs a lot more to be a Scientologist.

        Did you know Scientology committed the largest ever spying operation on the US government?  It's a matter of public record now.  

        Check out
        http://www.xenu.net
        for the dangerous practices and objectively horrible behaviour by the CoS.

        It's not the beliefs (xenu and whatnot) that are so bad (though the opposition to psychiatry is bad for scientologists who could use legitimate mental health assistance), but the behaviour of the church itself.  

        My opposition to scientology is based on actual things their group has done, and continues to do by all available evidence.  The existence of harmless scientologists like your daughter doesn't comfort me.  The organization as a whole is run by a group of sociopaths.  

  •  So where's the Religious Right? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Tigana, Dimetrodon

    The ones who think their job is to defend this supposedly Christian country's supposed Christianity? Are they so busy attacking gay marriage and "Happy Holidays" signs that they don't have time to go BAT-SHIT BONKERS over the fact that their religion is actually under attack for a change?

  •  Hubbard: You Forgot the Section 8 (5+ / 0-)

    Ever wonder why Scientolgists are so against psychiatry?

    Might have something to do with LRH's psychological discharge from the Navy.

    I weigh 666 pounds in zero gravity; COME AND GET ME!

    by thirdnostril on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:52:18 AM PDT

  •  Many years ago, a friend was deprogrammed from (6+ / 0-)

    Scientology.  We were both in our late teens.  His parents spent eight grand to have him taken by the deprogrammer to a safe location where he could be held for a weekend, and be told about the Church of Scientology.  In fact, what the deprogrammers told him made good sense to him, because he'd gotten high enough in the Church organization to have become troubled by what he saw.  So I have never been surprised at the sorts of revelations (or allegations) highlighted in this dairy.

    I don't know if anyone still does this kind of deprogramming.  I guess not; one unsuccessful deprogramming would destroy you legally.

  •  www.xenu.net (7+ / 0-)

    For the awful truth.

    I weigh 666 pounds in zero gravity; COME AND GET ME!

    by thirdnostril on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:54:53 AM PDT

  •  Someone ought to write Bill Richardson (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    YetiMonk, Dartagnan, txlosthorn

    about this issue...

  •  Didn't Hubbard himself, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dartagnan, dallasdave, txlosthorn

    before his death, essentially admit that Scientology was just a made-up scam to make money?

  •  I was stalked by a scientologist when I was (3+ / 0-)

    a teenager...  until my father got on the phone with the guy (at my request) and told him that he'd break his kneecaps if he came near me again.

    Oh the joys of growing up in San Francisco.  I knew all the cultists!

  •  ugh. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Paulie200, Dartagnan, txlosthorn

    Anyone else in NYC ever consider setting up a counter-Scientology table directly across from those "stress test" tables they set up in Union Square station? Those fuckers sucker so many people into the seats, and it's disturbing that so many have no clue what they're possibly inviting into their lives.

    •  they also show up at every disaster to offer (0+ / 0-)

      "aid". I saw them a lot at the assistance centers in nyc following 9/11, every time i saw them i alerted the powers that be, but no one did any thing. (i was working for legal services non-profit)

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

      by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:35:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Boreal Ecologist

        scientologists offer actual aid.

        I'm not a scientology apologist, I'm just saying that church has used its mega bucks to do some good.

        And denying someone help b/c of the religion (or "religion") of the helper is kinda callous. IMHO.

        •  I'll the MCC any day, any disaster. (0+ / 0-)

          (Mennonite Central Committee)

          You'll pay me the 8s I won of you a-betting?

          by Boreal Ecologist on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:44:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  sorry, not aid as in cookies and blankets (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          inclusiveheart, YetiMonk

          aid as in "counseling", they walked around looking for people to convert. Groups like that Salvation Army and the Red Cross, General Mills, etc. provided the food and stuff. Now the neo-nazi's were offering food i'll tell them to fuck off, likewise to the scientolgotist, who were trying to use 9/11 to get converts. (and yes i group Scientologists with neo-nazis)  

          "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." obama 5.16.08

          by mad cow on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:52:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  They don't offer "aid." (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          inclusiveheart

          They offer Scientology.

          Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

          by Dartagnan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:02:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Scientology "help" (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Paulie200, Dimetrodon

          You would do well to do a little research on the Scientology Volunteer Ministers. In particular, their antics after the Beslan school massacre, and their "help" after 911.

          http://xenu.net/...

          Internal emails gloated over disrupting legitimate mental health professionals who arrived to help the traumatized victims of this tragedy.

          "Additionally we are trying to move in and knock the psychs out of counseling to the grieving families and that could take another 100 plus people right now. Due to some brilliant maneuvering by some simply genius Sea Org Members we tied up the majority of the psychs who were attempting to get to families yesterday in Q&A, bullbait and wrangling. They have a hard time completing cycles of action and are pretty easy to disperse. But today they are out in full force and circling like vultures over these people and all of our resources are tied up in the support efforts in the disaster zone at present."

          Furthermore, Scientology doesn't spend any of IT'S billions on helping people; emails are sent out to members, begging for donations to send Volunteer Ministers to disaster sites, and pay for printing up copies of their little handbook, 'The Way to Happiness' to distribute onsite. At a profit to them, of course.

          Learn what you're talking about.

          THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

          by xenubarb on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 01:15:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Stress test (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      milkmit

      Thankfully, they've never accosted me (I often pass the one in Times Square), but if they do, I just may reply:

      "Of course, I'm stressed!  You're stressing me out right now!"

  •  I always though the proof ... (7+ / 0-)

    Was in the fact there are numerous people who have confirmed Scientology L. Ron Hubbard frequently said that if he wanted to make a million dollars, he'd start a religion.

    I mean, really, you don't get much clearer than that.

  •  Look out for the "fair game" docterine, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    section29, Paulie200

    they will come after you worse than Bill O'

    •  oddly enough, that's the first thing ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Paulie200

      that occurred to me when Bill-O started throwing S-P (="secular progressive") around as an epithet whilst plugging his last book: it seemed very much like he was using the term in its Scientological context.

      "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth! It is wise and terrible."

      by section29 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:21:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rove used that term when refering to (0+ / 0-)

      Valerie Plame...  mostly chalked it up to coincidence, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out Rove is a Scientologist.

  •  Cult (via Dictionary.com)... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    YetiMonk

    cult –noun

    1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
    1. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
    1. the object of such devotion.
    1. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
    1. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
    1. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
    1. the members of such a religion or sect.
    1. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

    What these definitions leave out is this: Cults (unlike mainstream religions who abide free will) usually stalk,  hassle  and/or punish those whom either leave or demean their cult.

    Look up Scientology & their concept of "fair game."

    "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."-Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi Republican.

    by wyvern on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:21:50 AM PDT

    •  That sounds like a definition.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      KansasLiberal

      of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Scientology, etc.

      As far as mainstream religions who allow free will, have you ever checked out Protestantism and John Calvin?  Predestination and all.  You can leave the church, but that's only because God damned you to hell before you were even born already and there's nothing you can do about it.

      What a lovely doctrine....

      "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

      by cometman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:25:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm familiar with... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        YetiMonk, Dimetrodon

        Presbyterians.

        If you are trying to argue that being a Calvinistic Presbyterian is the same as being a Scientologist, then your argument is specious.

        Besides, this diary is about how Scientology is a fraud. While it's probably a redundant point, nonetheless, it's  still a salient point to make.

        Dragging legitimate denominations & religions into the discussion serves no purpose.

        At least no purpose I can surmise.

        "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."-Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi Republican.

        by wyvern on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:49:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because it is all the same game. Only time (0+ / 0-)

          separates the 'legitimate' religions from Scientology or LDS. They all rely on the individual to believe in something that one man or some group created, and was perpetuated by ardent followers. In the end, all religion is in the eye of the beholder as to whether or not it is legitimate. My personal opinion is that they are all a scam.

          "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

          by Boisepoet on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:17:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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