Daily Kos

Gator the Traitor: My letter to Bill O'Reilly w/POLL UPDATE

by Gator

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 10:50:27 AM PDT

I just can't let this go: "The KKK is the Republican Base."  I am deeply disappointed in my home blog and I decided to write Bill O'Reilly an email.  If this diary gets any coverage, I hope we all grow from it.  I decided to post this out of respect to my home blog.  If I can tell BillO then I can say the same thing to all of you.  But I want to make it clear that I pleaded for moderation.

What follows is my letter to Bill O'Reilly

"Bill, I have to say that I do not agree with your politics, but I have to say that something I dislike even more is a double standard.

In your recent opinion pieces you have referred to DailyKos  as a "hate" site.  You have referred to them as similar to the KKK or Nazi's.  I also read at Dailykos how many members felt this characterization was unfair and I agreed with my fellow members.  But, you are entitled to your opinion.  I just don't agree with it.

I was appalled when members of DailyKos members  participated in the very same type politics by recommending this comment: "The KKK is the Republican Base."

Here is the story: http://www.dailykos.com/...

Take a look at the second comment:  "The KKK is the Republican Base"

Now, the title is important, but what is more important is the number of recommends given to the comment: 178.

Kos calls this a community monitored site so please pay attention to those that negatively rated the comment in an attempt to squelch the bullshit comment. Well it didn't work.

Over 150 members recommended the statement.  Now in all fairness to the original poster that person did state in a later diary that the comment was "over the top."

http://www.dailykos.com/...

Notice  in the same story, despite the original poster's comment that it was uprated even further to 178.

I couldn't believe it.  So I posted this diary with a poll:

http://www.dailykos.com/...

I'll let the diary and poll tell its own story.

Now I want to make it clear that I do not participate in hate.  I do not like your program and I do not like what you do as a television personality,  but what I seriously dislike more then anything else is a double standard.

Peace

Gator"

UPDATE
"Silence can be violence sorta like a slit wrist"
Rage Against The Machine

When you see a Bullshit comment call it out don't cosign with a non-comment or a rec.
That is the point of my diary.

Of course if you want to Defend the original comment, and DailyKos here is BillO's email.

http://www.billoreilly.com/...
Peace

Poll

I believe, as a DailyKos member,...

16%7 votes
13%6 votes
20%9 votes
30%13 votes
18%8 votes

| 43 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Bill O'Reilly, Daily Kos (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 60 comments

  •  TR away (1+ / 0-)

    I am just calling bullshit when I see bullshit.

    by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 10:50:54 AM PDT

  •  You left out "pie" (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shayera, AaronBa, jimraff, Pager, ubertar, Gethsemani Sam

    and I think this is pretty stupid. Give it up.

    Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

    by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:04:56 AM PDT

  •  So? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ubertar, Jeff Y

    While the KKK has long since been disbanded, institutional bigotry still remains in the Republican party; simply look at immigration policy to assure yourself of this.  Yes, I agree that the comment was extreme and hyperbolic, but it had some basis in fact.  I just don't really fully grasp your problem with it -- are you expecting people here to be as meticulously correct as a political commentator should be?  That's absurd.

    by Begoner on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:05:22 AM PDT

    •  Yes, I have a high standard (0+ / 0-)

      "...are you expecting people here to be as meticulously correct as a political commentator should be?  That's absurd."

      Yes, I have a high standard
      Especially in light of BillO's recent comments.  Especially when all it requires is holding off on the rec button.  Especially when it is such a gross over generalization that the original poster has already agreed to.

      "but it had some basis in fact.

      Some folks call this a "myth."  I agree with them.

      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:16:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Gator, shayera

    The diary sucked, but at least the title rhymed.  I like rhyming titles.

    I had not thought death had undone so many.

    by TruthOfAngels on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:23:31 AM PDT

  •  Council of Concerned Citizens (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shayera, SheriffBart, debedb, ubertar, NotGeorgeWill

    One of the groups that Haley Barbour made his rounds to prior to making Governor.  Here's their website: http://www.cofcc.org/

    There is a race obsession going on with the Republican base. I find it difficult to overlook that their enemies are generally of non-caucasion  races, with the exceptions of homosexuals and single moms.

    by lilorphant on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:31:32 AM PDT

  •  let me see if i have this right (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shayera, FrankieB, NotGeorgeWill

    you disagree with the comment, so you decided to let billo know that in your opinion, there are hypocrites in our midst.

    a comparatively draconian immigration bill failed recently because republicans believed that losing everything people had worked for and paying a nearly impossible fine was wasn't hard enough on brown people and should be considered amnesty.

    there's a video out of the right-wing supported minutemen, beloved and lionized by the limbaughs, malkins and coulters of the world, executing someone for attempting to cross the border.  the minutemen are private citizens, republicans, hunting people of color.

    would i go so far as to say that all republicans are bigots and endorse these things?  nope.  but the institutional bigotry noted elsewhere in the comments here is alive and living, and embraced by individuals who tend to vote republican.

    and

    Acting Globally, Acting Locally: The Silent Tsunami Campaign

    by jmonch on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:32:41 AM PDT

    •  Please, clarify,... you agree with this comment; (0+ / 0-)

      "The KKK is the Republican Base."

      ???

      Answer, and I will comment on you post.

      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:38:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I understand bringing this to us but what is (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shayera, Residentcynic

        the point of emailing it to billo. I just don't get the logic in that part. By the way I agree that the comment in question should have been hidden rather than uprated.

        A view from the border you need to see.

        by buddabelly on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:49:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Public Forum (0+ / 0-)

          I guess the two-faced, "double standardishness" of it all just really disappointed me.  It wasn't the comment, it was the 178 fellow kossacks that rec'ed it that bothers me.

          When I tried to engage the community in conversation about the comment I was troll-rated over and over just for trying to address the double standard.

          In the past I have possessed some stereotypical, overgeneralized beliefs and what cured me of them the quickest was embarrassment.  In this public forum, I just decided to go a tad bit more public and ask these folks to stand by their support.    

          by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:07:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  @$%#^$ happens in communities and the (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Gator, shayera, FrankieB, lvillelass

            point of broadcasting those problems to people who want to harm the community makes no sense.

            This would have been a good and rec worthy diary concept to engage the community and attempt to change some minds. Instead you help those who wish to harm. Makes no sense to me.

            A view from the border you need to see.

            by buddabelly on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:54:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Probably caught more attention with this method. (0+ / 0-)

              I've already been branded a concern troll.

              I tried to keep it inhouse.

              by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:01:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And how did that work out for you? (0+ / 0-)

                I tried to keep it inhouse

                Perhaps the quote that is causing all of this dispute
                should have read:
                Most KKK are republicans
                Would that have made more sense and been more truthful?

                When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

                by lvillelass on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:14:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not to well (0+ / 0-)

                  Yes I believe this comment might be more truthful.

                  "Most KKK are republicans"

                  by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:20:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then perhaps you might just think about (0+ / 0-)

                    cutting everyone some slack.  IMHO what has most people on this site so upset with you is your lack of seeing any shades of gray.  I read your whole last diary and was sickened by your constant harping about one slightly mis-worded sentence.  So, lets ends this by
                    agreeing that the statement should have read
                    "Most KKK are republicans".  Okay?

                    When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

                    by lvillelass on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:28:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then do the same for me. (0+ / 0-)

                      Cut me some slack.

                      The comment was over the top.

                      It was not fair and if you simply look at the number of people who rose to defend it then you would be "truly sickened" as I was.

                      Last word to you.

                      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:46:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh, for christ sake (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Gator

                        just let it go.  I was trying to cut you some slack
                        but you seem to want a fight.  Personally I'd much rather spend my time fighting for the 2008 elections than trying to reason with you.
                        So, word out

                        When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

                        by lvillelass on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:00:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  no (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shayera

        your commenting on my post really isn't all that interesting to me, so, no.  i'll not be bullied.

        Acting Globally, Acting Locally: The Silent Tsunami Campaign

        by jmonch on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:54:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  changed my mind (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shayera

        people get tired and frustrated and say things that are over the top or extreme or that they really don't mean.  and sometimes, other people who are tired and frustrated agree with them at that moment, even if they don't agree in a larger sense.  some of the people maybe really agreed; some maybe really didn't.  but in a community of over 130,000 registered users, around than 0.14% took the moment to rec the comment.

        your response to that 0.14%, without of considering their state of mind or motivation, was to feed the right wing nose machine with your own self righteousness.

        so... no, i don't agree with the comment; i didn't see it at the time but wouldn't have recommended it if i had.  but i surely see the frustration, anger, and national attitudes toward race that led to it.

        Acting Globally, Acting Locally: The Silent Tsunami Campaign

        by jmonch on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:08:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am glad you changed your mind. (0+ / 0-)

          In the original diary, I was simply asking people to not Rec out of frustration. So yes I guess i did feed the right wing noise machine, but 178 fellow kossacks provided their own excellent meals to be shoveled into the machine.  

          Of course you can email and refute everything I've said to BillO

          http://www.billoreilly.com/...

          by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:19:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The KKK is a significant part of the GOP base (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shayera, jmonch, FrankieB, lvillelass

    I think there is more than a little truth to this.

    While the KKK may not be the name on the store front -- it is just a statement of fact that groups like the CCC (designated as a Hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center), and elements of the "Minutemen" organization are White Supremacist groups.  In fact one of the GOP presidential candidates, Tom Tancredo has made no bones about his affiliation with the CCC.

    Look no further than the action on the immigration bill.  Guys like Limbaugh, and even O'Reilly are definitely coddling nativist sentiments on this issue.

    We could talk about the fall in median wages--and what impact illegal immigration may have on wage pressures; but the GOP base and its mouthpieces instead focus instead on things like the Mexican flag, or the American anthem being sung in Spanish, or the odd illegal immigrant who commits murder or rape.  The flag, the anthem, criminal tendencies -- these are all emotional plugs that tap into hard-wired prejudice.  There's a reason that guys like O'Reilly and Limbaugh press these buttons -- it's because a large segment of their audience is receptive to the message, and because there's money to be made selling and reinforcing stereotypes.

    On the other side you have anti-gay marriage amendment ballot measures used as GOTV during the past election cycles (used in Ohio in 2004 as well as about a dozen other states in 2004 and 2006).  In a very real sense the use of those measures can be reduced to "how much do you hate gay people; come out and show your support for gay bashing and the GOP."

    Now I suspect you know people -- as I do -- who vote Republican more often than not.  On a personal level these can be kind, decent people.  They may be great with their families.  But when you talk about the kinds of issues that really move GOP core supporters at the polls, it's hate and bile.  It may not be pleasant, but that's simply a fact.  

    Btw, I would class your diary as a worth-while exercise in contrarian thinking.  

    I do think the left side of the political spectrum is developing it's own authoritarian streak -- you can see a little bit of it in the pack mentality that comes into play with some diaries -- but that very fact doesn't necessarily disprove the statement the "KKK is the Republican Base".  

    I would argue for a more qualified statement "the KKK is a significant part of the Republican Base".  But provocative statements are what they are.  Some people like to write and talk in gross-generalizations and hyperbole.  I have no problem with gross-generalizations and hyperbole, just as long as the person who makes the statements is willing to defend the point of view in an open forum.  I see a significant difference between a commentator who makes a statement on a blog like DKos, and a TV or radio personality who controls the format, the guests, and the questions, and who gets paid for trafficking in stereotypes, prejudices, and gross generalizations.

    "The KKK is the GOP base" might draw an audience on a non-subscription, completely open Democratic blog; however, it's equivalent has sustained the careers of people like Malkin, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, and an entire network in the Fox News Channel -- the GOP base has not only eaten the message right up, but they've paid through the nose to get more and more of it.  Someday there might be a significant market for this on the Democratic side, but it isn't there right now.

    by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:02:42 PM PDT

    •  You've modified the original comment (0+ / 0-)

      Which is all that I asked of posters on the original thread.

      Instead 178 people rec'ed the diary.

      4 TR'ed it

      So lets be clear

      178 kossacks rec'ed this comment

         

      "The KKK is the Republican Base."

      We will see how many rec you "revised comment."

      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:24:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why did people recommend the diary? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shayera, FrankieB

        Maybe some of those recommends came not as an endorsement of the language, but because people wanted to put the diary out in the open to challenge the viewpoint.

        Sometimes the best way to challenge gross-generalizations is not to silence them, but to bring the ideas out into the open for debate.  I would not necessarily see 178 recommends as an endorsement of the diarists viewpoint.

        Even if the diarists statement is a generalization -- a point that I would only partially concede -- when you talk about equivalence you also have to look at the format, the forum, and the market.  

        Even if every single one of those 178 recommends was viewed as an endorsement of the diarists viewpoint there is no equivalence between 178 recommends on a completely open non-subscription blog, and a multi-million dollar industry the likes of which supports the O'Reillys, Hannitys, Coulters, Limbaughs, and Fox Newses of the world.

        I think it does stand that the KKK is the GOP base -- especially in reference to attitudes towards immigration, gay marriage, and non-white culture (be it in the Middle East, or elsewhere in the world).  If you look at a candidate like John McCain his 1 to 3% poll numbers can be attributed to a combination of his age and stance on immigration.  That tells me an awful lot about the GOP base.

        by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:38:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was not the diary that got rec'ed (0+ / 0-)

          ... it was a the second comment in a diary and it was the second highest rated diary for the day.

          by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:45:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We're still dancing around the core issue. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Gator, shayera, FrankieB

            Is the statement "the KKK is the GOP base" untrue?

            What are you trying to demonstrate with your diary?

            by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:55:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am trying to say that ... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              NotGeorgeWill

              gross over generalizations like this comment
              "The KKK is the Republican Base."

              Are just as wrong, dim witted, and obtuse as ...

              BillO saying that DailyKos is a hate site, not different then the KKK or Nazi's

              I am trying to address the double standard.

              by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:58:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Got it. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Gator

                I think it's also important to spell out our differences.  

                You seem to be saying that "the KKK is the GOP" is untrue.  I say it's a generalization that has more than an ounce of truth to it.  The statement can be supported by poll numbers and electoral strategies that the GOP has employed and is using during this current election cycle.  

                I think what makes the statement a little hard to swallow is that folks might feel uncomfortable acknowledging that people who are very loving and generous in their private lives are also extremely hateful and highly prejudiced in their public judgments -- in the policies they endorse, and in the candidates that they vote for.

                That doesn't make the statement "the KKK is the GOP base" untrue -- it just means that the statement is unpleasant to hear.  That's my view at least.

                My qualification regarding "the KKK is a significant part of the GOP base" isn't substantively different from the commentators point of view.  I would define "significant" not as a significant minority, but as 80 to 90% of the GOP's base -- the activists.  So while I don't entirely agree with the commentator, I think it's safe to say that I agree more than disagree.

                I also think it is a mistake to draw an equivalence between O'Reilly and some DKos commentator.  The analogy -- to the extent that there is one -- deals only with the use of generalizations; not in terms of market reach or influence, or the truth of the generalizations.  I think these are factors that can't be overlooked.  

                I think it's fine that you've raised the issue in a diary, but to the extent that there is a double-standard I see a weak correlation.  I might agree with you that the statement expresses frustration and anger, but I don't think the statement is untrue.

                It's also worth pointing out that the standards between a comment posted on an open-forum, and one stated on in front of a national TV audience on a nightly basis with heavy-handed moderation; supported by millions of dollars in ad revenue; have significantly different impacts.  

                If you want to talk double-standards, let's also talk about market reach and impact.  The equivalence just isn't there.

                Unlike O'Reilly, DailyKos allows a person such as yourself to at least present a viewpoint that contradicts this orthodoxy -- and it gives you ample time to defend your point of view.  O'Reilly's platform doesn't even offer its critics this luxury.  This represents a significant difference in my view between the generalizations that you find here at DKos and the ones that O'Reilly makes on a nightly basis.  

                If we want to judge speech content, let's also examine the forum in which the viewpoint is expressed.  In this respect there is no equivalence; there is no double-standard.

                by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:54:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do not disagree with anything you have said. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  NotGeorgeWill

                  but I see no difference in what some folks characterize as a casual comment and Rec with the their mouse.  and what BillO says on national TV.

                  The mentality is the same.  Throw out some red meat and someone will bite. Someone will cosign this bullshit.

                  So I ask you should we call this BS when we see it or wait until we have market reach?

                  last word to you

                  by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:16:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Points of agreement. (0+ / 0-)

                    I agree with your decision to write the diary.  However, I think the move only goes half way.  

                    If your mission is really to moderate the tone of the public debate it's probably better to write O'Reilly's advertisers, or to sign up for Fox Attacks, than to write his show voicing your concerns.  

                    For the purposes of generating a discussion here, your letter to his show was a useful device.  But as far as O'Reilly is concerned, it will have no impact--even if the letter airs.

                    by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 03:43:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Drawing Attention, raising eyebrows (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      NotGeorgeWill

                      I could have put the most heart felt diary voicing my concerns and it would have been ignored.  At least this title gets scoffed at, excluding you.  I appreciate your comments.

                      I don't expect anything from O'Reilly, nothing.  I wish DailyKos, or rather the posters of Dailykos on 8/15/2007 when the original comment was made had responded in a different fashion.

                      This diary will probably accomplish nothing.

                      It was more of an act of letting the issue go for myself.

                      It really did bother me.

                      Just getting it off my chest, finally.

                      Peace

                      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:34:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's a good exercise too. (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Gator

                        If a comment or diary bothers someone they should write a reasoned response as you did.  Your diary still generated quite a few comments.  It served its purpose for you and other readers.

                        I think the commentator who made the "KKK" remark was just doing some venting, so I wouldn't put too much value in it.  

                        Personally, I'm more troubled by the appeals that the GOP presidential candidates have been making in recent years; and the appeals that apparently work in GOP primaries.  I'm troubled by the fact that a guy like George W. Bush could win two elections, and that even now--several months after the 2006 election--you still have GOP judiciary members voting along party lines to help stymie investigations into areas like the firing of the U.S. Attorneys (which represents a fairly big institutional crisis in my view).

                        Last night I was throwing back some beers with some friends who a few years ago would have been considered fairly strongly self-identified Republicans.  I didn't ask them directly if the "KKK is the GOP" these days -- but on some level I suspect they would agree with the statement.  They aren't exactly enamored with the Democratic field or party either.  More than anything they're just disillusioned.  They state that it's "time to throw the bums out," but I don't think they see an answer on either side right now.

                        Me personally, I've voted for both parties in the past; although in recent years I've become much more strongly identified with the Democratic party.  Even though I have my concerns about the party long-term, I don't have any doubt about which party has my interests in mind right now -- especially as it relates to meat and potatoes economic issues and Constitutional issues.  

                        That's enough of my own venting I guess.

                        In any event, good diary, and good discussion.

                        by NotGeorgeWill on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 09:38:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

  •  You've modified the original comment (0+ / 0-)

    Which is all that I asked of posters on the original thread.

    Instead 178 people rec'ed the diary.

    4 TR'ed it

    So lets be clear

    178 kossacks rec'ed this comment

    "The KKK is the Republican Base."

    We will see how many rec you "revised comment."

    by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:13:36 PM PDT

    •  Oops (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NotGeorgeWill

      This comment intended for NotGeorgeWill

      by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:24:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  how many times do you need to repeat yourself? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NotGeorgeWill

      I did not see that diary nor those comments you quote but I do not agree with generalizations they are wrong however you are generalizing here too. You are saying we are like O'Reilly. Please note I recently moved from a state that is so red that this past election cycle we LOST Dems in the election. Also note that racism and prejudice runs rampant in Georgia. That does NOT mean that all GOPers are racist but it does show that most racists are GOPers, can you not acknowledge that?? Please go research SPLC and their web site you will learn much. Oh and please be proud of yourself when Billo uses your letter to prove that everyone here is a Nazi, hate monger. I applaud your wanting to debate this but really question what if anything you have accomplished in cuddling up to Billo except aleinating those here that you wish to engage in debate with. I know it certainly makes me less likely to debate things with you because I am concerned that anything I say will be used by you to prove that we are all a bunch of &%(^#^ hate mongers here. The only bias I have to people are towards those with prejudices. Seems to me though that with posting this you will paint me with the same brush you have others. This is despite the fact that you really do not know what their thought processes are.  Peace to you and may you find the community that you are searching for where everything is light, love and never is anything other than black/white, good/evil and good/white NEVER looses but I really do not think you will find it this side of heaven!

      "Veto Proof" is DC Dem for "Stay the Course." khereva

      by FrankieB on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:11:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are correct (0+ / 0-)

        I did over generalize in the sense that I used some pronouns carelessly.

        I will clarify.

        Some folks at DailyKos participate in the same politics as BillO.  Throw out some red meat like,

        "The KKK is the Republican Base."

        You could get as many as 178 bites.

        by Gator on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:24:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

Permalink | 60 comments