Daily Kos

Lord Saletan Discovers Tobacco Control

Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 03:52:13 PM PDT

Lord Saletan, the world's worst reporter on "science, technology and life", has turned his attention to tobacco control policy in an article in Slate.  It's called "Kicking Butt: The international jihad [sic] against tobacco."  It's classic Saletan, i.e. complete garbage and vague discomfort masquerading as a policy piece.  It's abundantly clear by the end that he really has only a passing familiarity with tobacco control policy.

http://www.slate.com/...

I hate smoking. It's a filthy habit. It kills hundreds of millions of people, including bystanders. Just being around it nauseates me. Cities, states, and countries all over the world are banning smoking in public, and I couldn't be happier.

Saletan wants to establish his anti-smoking bona fides from the start.  That way the article won't come off as smoker's rationalization or Big Tobacco PR.

In fact, it's such a rout, it's getting out of hand.

The problem with tobacco all along was that politicians and the public didn't recognize it as a drug. They called it a tradition, a "crop," and a "legal product." As though coca and marijuana weren't crops. As though a product's legality should decide its morality, instead of the other way around. When it came to smoking, culture overpowered reason.

Is that really the problem here?  I wouldn't say so.  Caffeine is a drug.  It's even addictive to some degree.  However, there's no Coffee Control section at the CDC, and there's a good reason for that.  The difference between coffee and tobacco is that more than 400,000 Americans die from tobacco use every year.  Tobacco use is a public health crisis.  That's what makes it a public policy question.   Identifying the core problem as being one of whether tobacco is a drug, a custom or not really misses the point entirely.  Having developed this frame for thinking about the issue, Saletan proceeds to see the entire question in terms of comparisons to policies on other drugs and how we can alter the drug to make it less harmful.  

Now public opinion and governments have turned against tobacco. But the anti-smoking jihad, born of science, is beginning to outrun it. Culture is trampling reason again, this time in the other direction.

OK.  Now we're getting to the normal Saletan bullshit part.  Just as pro-choice women evidently don't know they are killing a fetus, and stem-cell researcher proponents give Saletan the creeps, the tobacco control jihadis are evidently outrunning science, where I would suppose outrunning science means something like advocating policies that don't reduce tobacco use or exposure.

Nonsmoking areas in restaurants haven't worked too well. The smoke just drifts from one area to the other. To fix this, European countries are now isolating smokers in sealed rooms with separate ventilation. Lest any waitress encounter a toxic cloud, Holland, Slovenia, and other countries have outlawed eating in the smoking rooms. That's pretty harsh. I thought we were trying to remove smoke from eaters, not food from smokers.

Uhh, they're trying to remove smoke from the workers, because they believe that workers should have a safe workplace (crazy concept, I know).  In these countries, restaurants and bars can have separately-ventilated smoking rooms which are off-limits to wait staff.  How Lord Saletan thinks that patrons are going to eat in smoking rooms without interaction with wait staff is really beyond me.

Likewise, the point of recognizing tobacco as a drug was to regulate it as strictly as comparable drugs, not more so. Five months ago, a report by a British commission found that the financial health costs of alcohol and tobacco were equal. Tobacco was by far the bigger killer, but when the analysis moved beyond self-destruction to harming others, the annual death toll from alcohol-related car accidents exceeded the toll from secondhand smoke in the workplace. Drinking, unlike smoking, played a role in 78 percent of assaults and 88 percent of criminal damage. The commission concluded that if legal drugs were classified like illegal ones, alcohol would be judged more serious than tobacco. Instead, British law allows advertising of booze but not cigarettes.

The point of regulating tobacco is to deal with a public health crisis not to regulate it as strictly as comparable drugs (whatever that means).  Frankly, I have no idea where he even got that idea that tobacco control advocates were sitting around calibrating the regulation of tobacco against other harmful drugs instead of crafting policy to reduce tobacco use and tobacco harm.

Regulation of alcohol is quite simply another topic.  If Saletan wants to make proposals on how to regulate alcohol, he should go ahead, but it is well and truly irrelevant to questions of how to deal with the tobacco public health crisis.

The strangest thing about the current round of smoking bans is its focus on pubs. All over the world, reporters have been interviewing bar patrons about the merits of expelling tobacco. "It means I can drink and not come out [of] the bar stinking like an ash-tray," one guy in Hong Kong told Agence France-Presse after a night of partying. There's nothing more annoying than a stinking cigarette when you're trying to get stinking drunk.

The strangest thing?  The focus of workplace smoking laws is on restaurants and bars because in many places there are already laws which ban smoking in workplaces other than restaurants and bars.  Tobacco control advocates are trying to eliminate those exemptions and extend workplace smoking bans to all workplaces.  That means extending the law to take in bars and restaurants.  Again, Saletan seems to completely fail to see how workplace safety is the critical factor in workplace smoking laws.

Tobacco myopia isn't just a British problem. In South Korea, a university president has proposed to permit booze but "remove smoking students from our school." In Amsterdam, coffee shop patrons will soon be allowed to smoke marijuana but not tobacco, despite evidence that two joints cause as much noncancerous lung damage as five to 12 cigarettes.

I'm not quite sure what the point is about tobacco myopia.  I thought the thesis of this article was that the tobacco "jihad" had overrun science.  But it seems that all Saletan wants to complain about is how weak alcohol regulation is.  Maybe he should have written an article about that instead.

Furthermore, Konkuk University is a private university.  They can establish any admissions policies they want.  I fail to see how that's a question of public policy.  I also fail to see what is controversial about the proposed alcohol policy.  "In addition, Oh will start a campaign for a responsible drinking culture at the school."  Is Salatan in favor of an irresponsible drinking culture instead?  The legal drinking age in South Korea is 19, so most college-age students can legally drink.

Last but not least, Saletan is just plain wrong that "coffee shop patrons will soon be allowed to smoke marijuana but not tobacco."  He evidently failed basic reading comprehension because the article he links to makes it clear that the regulations are the same for tobacco smoke and marijuana smoke.  "Coffee shops will be treated in the same manner as other catering businesses. They will be smoke-free," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told NOS television.  "It would have been wrong to move towards a smoke-free catering industry and then make an exception for coffee shops. People would not have understood that."  What part of "Coffee shops will be treated in the same manner as other catering businesses. They will be smoke-free," was unclear to Lord Saletan?  Coffeeshops will be able to have separately-ventilated smoking rooms just like any other bar, cafe, or restaurant and patrons will be able to smoke tobacco as well as marijuana.       But, hey, who needs facts when you can just claim it's so?

In the private sector, the tobacco crusade has turned personal. According to a recent survey, 1 percent of companies refuse to hire smokers. Some use random urine or breathalyzer tests to spot nicotine. If you flunk the test or refuse to take it, you're out. Officially, the rationale is that smokers cost companies too much money in health insurance. But some policies go further. One company forced out several smokers, including at least one who wasn't on the company health plan. By her account, employees were told that the ban applied even to nicotine gum and patches, which don't produce secondhand smoke or drive up insurance premiums.

Smoking status (or even nicotine use) is not a protected category under employment discrimination law.  Short of making it a protected category, this is each company's choice, not a public policy question.

Urine tests are a warning sign that the war on smoking is morphing into a war on nicotine. The latest target is snus, a tobacco product that delivers nicotine without smoke. Despite studies showing it's far safer than cigarettes, most European countries allow smoking but prohibit snus. In the U.S., sponsors of legislation to regulate tobacco under the FDA are resisting amendments that would let companies tell consumers how much safer snus is. The president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids complains that snus will "increase the number of people who use tobacco," letting "the big companies win no matter what tobacco products people use." But the goal shouldn't be to stamp out tobacco or make companies lose. The goal should be to save lives.

10 paragraphs in, we have finally hit something that could be said to be relevant to the science and tobacco control policy.  Scandinavian snus is in fact a very familiar product to Americans.  It is very similar to American "snuff", "dip", or "moist smokeless tobacco", Skoal, Copenhagen, and Kodiak, etc...  Snus usage is undoubtedly safer than smoking tobacco, although not safe.  Nicotine in smokeless tobacco still contributes to heart disease and high-blood pressure and carcinogens in the tobacco can cause oral cancer and other cancers.  The public health question regarding snus or snuff is whether it would be beneficial to public health to allow smokeless tobacco manufacturers to market smokeless tobacco as less harmful than smoking.  The problem is that a message that smokeless tobacco is less harmful than smoking may simply encourage more non-smokers to use smokeless tobacco without appreciable numbers of smokers switching from smoking to smokeless tobacco.  That would do nothing to reduce harm.  As of yet, there has been too little research to know either way.  I can certainly understand the concerns of European tobacco regulators who don't want to start another tobacco problem by allowing Snus use outside Sweden without knowing whether it will actually reduce the number of smokers.  In any case, this is definitely not a case of the tobacco "jihad" outrunning the science, but of the science being insufficient at this time to make a policy recommendation.

After this the article just gets weird.  Saletan throws in a criticism of the pro-smoking crowd for good measure but then goes back to criticizing tobacco control advocates, claiming that they can't decide whether more or less nicotine in cigarettes is bad.  There are downsides to both raising and lowering nicotine in cigarettes.  Higher nicotine cigarettes would lead to higher smoking initiation because they would be more addictive to youth smokers.  However, lowering nicotine levels in cigarettes would lead to compensatory smoking among current smokers, exposing those smokers to more carbon monoxide and carcinogens.  There is nothing contradictory about criticizing Big Tobacco for manipulating nicotine (in order to gets kids hooked) while being having reservations about lowering nicotine levels.

Instead of indiscriminately vilifying tobacco, we should reengineer it. Bypass the combustion, purge the tar, dial down the nicotine—whatever serves public health.

There's Saletan's one sentence solution to the global tobacco crisis.  Reengineer tobacco.  Let's talk about real tobacco myopia here.  Tobacco Control isn't something that was first thought of last Monday.  Scientists  have been studying the problem of reducing the harms of smoking and other tobacco use since at least the 1950s.  There are many recommendations which are so common that it boggles the mind that Saletan would throw out his reengineer idea and leave it at that.  Effective tobacco control requires reengineering tobacco marketing, packaging, and retailing, implementing effective youth access controls, higher tobacco excise taxes, increased spending on tobacco prevention and cessation programs, and limits on exposure to second-hand smoke.  

In 2000, the Surgeon General even wrote a whole report on the best-available science on the subject.

http://www.cdc.gov/...

Thinking that we just need to reengineer tobacco shows that Saletan has no idea what is involved in this question.  I don't know why Slate continues insulting their readers by publishing garbage like this.

Tags: Tobacco, William Saletan, Slate, nanny state (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 56 comments

  •  It's SuperOrtcutt!!!!! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    G2geek

    .....here to bravely rescue us all once again from the evils of personal freedom. Sigh...my hero!

    I strongly recommend you get a cape.  All superheroes have one.  I just question whether yours should have a big "O" on it for Ortcutt or a big "N" for Nanny.

    Be warned though.....those of us desperately trying to cling to the last remnants of freewill in our society are searching for the kryptonite needed to get superheroes like you to MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.

    •  And It Can't Be Long Until.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      G2geek

      ...."eugene", he who plays Robin to your Batman in the crusade against personal freedom in America, makes his first appearance in the Nanny-mobile.

      •  I dunno what your problem is. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ortcutt

        Restrctions on tobacco use in public places enhance the personal freedom of those of us who don't smoke, by making it possible for us to go places without being grossed out or sickened by second-hand smoke.  

        Also, the main point of what Ortcutt wrote is Lord Saletan's sappy non-revelations, not tobacco control policies themselves.  

        Renewable energy brings national security.

        by Calamity Jean on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 06:32:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NogodsnomastersMary

      It just wouldn't be a diary without you coming here to present the anti-public health point of view.  If you don't care about public health, then why do you read DailyKos.  You'll find lots of kindred spirits over at LGF or someplace.

      •  Since When Is Daily Kos.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        .....a venue for "public health" fascists to spout their police-state-for-your-own-good blather as opposed to the political blog I always thought it was?  The level of statist muscle you advocate using to coerce the peasantry into living a lifestyle more like ortcutt lives his/her lifestyle is politically and ethically treacherous territory for the Democratic Party to pursue.....and I exercise my option to call you on it in attempt to save the party for sawing off its own head.

        •  Cheers (0+ / 0-)

          You got a laugh out of me-Thanks

          "Religion has run out of justifications.Thanks to the telescope and the microscope, it no longer offers an explanation of anything important." -C.Hitchens

          by TheSocialDarwinist on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:38:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Cuz' it's a progressive blog... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          NogodsnomastersMary

          and progressives believe that public health is a public policy concern.  I guess you oppose Medicare, Medicaid, the CDC, OSHA, NIH, etc... as well?

          •  If Progressivism Is Defined by "Public Health"... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            G2geek

            ....in the form of lifestyle control mandates, then will there ever be a limit to the edicts you and your ilk will shout out of the windows of your castles to the "naughty" peasantry filling their bodies with all kinds of horrific poisons?  Or does this crusade begin and end with smoking because you and Bill Saletan find it "yucky"?  Either way, I have no respect for you or your cause.

            And yes, you got me.  Because I favor adults having the freewill to put what they choose to into their own bodies, that also means I oppose Medicare and OSHA.  I can't believe nobody has connected those obvious dots before.  Leave it to SuperOrtcutt!!!!  to save the day once again.

            •  If you don't think that public health is a... (0+ / 0-)

              public concern then how can you justify taxing someone to pay for someone else's Medicare.  If you're going to be a libertarian, at least be a consistent libertarian.

              •  Most Nations on the Globe..... (0+ / 0-)

                ....separate the principles of public health policy and allowing their people to legally and affordably consume demanded products that are less than healthy.  I see no reason why I can't support the same philosophy that France and Switzerland do.

                •  France and Switzerland (and Europe) (0+ / 0-)

                  France has a smokefree workplace law coming into effect on Jan. 8, 2008.  Canton Ticino in Switzerland already has one.  Furthermore, cigarettes in France run about 5 Euros ($6.75) per pack.

                  In fact all of the following European countries have workplace smoking laws in effect or laws which go into effect by 2009. *(Laws currently in effect)

                  Albania*
                  Belgium*
                  Denmark*
                  Estonia*
                  Finland*
                  France
                  Germany
                  Hungary
                  Iceland*
                  Ireland*
                  Italy*
                  Lithuania*
                  Malta*
                  Netherlands
                  Norway*
                  Portugal
                  Slovenia*
                  Spain*
                  Sweden*
                  United Kingdom*

                  •  The Law is Ignored.... (0+ / 0-)

                    ....in most of those countries.  People will continue to defiantly light up in France restaurants and bars after January 8, as they have whenever the French government has tried to put their smoking population in cages in the past.  

                    But "indoor smoking" is not the topic at hand here...or at least it wasn't until you were boxed into a corner trying to defend your nanny-statism.  This diary very clearly endorses stepping up every possible means of forcing cigarette smokers into retreat.  You defended the expansion of smoking bans outdoors in this diary.  You defended consumption of marijuana and alcohol as less harmful than tobacco in this diary.  And on other occasions, you have endorsed the diary of forcing working-class smokers to pay your taxes for you in the form of massive new excise taxes on cigarettes.

                    And after all this, you STILL haven't answered my questions from the last post.  If your anti-tobacco posturing is really coming from a "public health" perspective, then will you be just as merciless on the forcing the peasantry into submission in regards to their other naughty habits?  Or is your crusade limited only to "yucky" cigarette smokers?  What's a nanny-stater to do when he/she back himself/herself into this much of a corner?

                    •  Uhh (0+ / 0-)

                      The Law is Ignored in most of those countries.  People will continue to defiantly light up in France restaurants and bars after January 8, as they have whenever the French government has tried to put their smoking population in cages in the past.  

                      Have you done a study of smoking in the countries with smoking bans in effect or are you just making shit up?  My bet is on the latter.

                      You defended consumption of marijuana and alcohol as less harmful than tobacco in this diary.

                      I did?  Please point out where.

                      If your anti-tobacco posturing is really coming from a "public health" perspective, then will you be just as merciless on the forcing the peasantry into submission in regards to their other naughty habits?

                      The question is too abstract to answer.  Please define what the public health problem is that you are referring to.

                      •  I've Read Reports.... (0+ / 0-)

                        ....about how smoking bans are being ignored by an unwilling peasantry, although admittedly most of the stuff I've read has come from France and India.  Perhaps the muscle of the state has been more effective in pushing around the peasants in the other countries on your list.

                        The public health problem I'm referring to?  How about alcohol consumption?  There are alcohol-related deaths every day in America.  How about "transfat" and the obesity "epidemic" in general that has become the latest breathless cause celebre of nanny staters worth their weight in tofu casserole?  How about soda pop, a key contributor to obesity and a detriment to public health utopia?  How about Internet access among young people, expanding waistlines and threatening the blissful world of "public health" Kumbaya?  Video games? Television? White bread? Sugared cereals?  Canned soups? The list of products and/or lifestyle choices that threaten public health are seemingly endless.  At what point do you remove your talons from the necks of smokers and seek new prey to "civilize from their own savagery" the way the slave traders so bravely saved the people of West Africa a few centuries ago?

                        •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

                          You're actually comparing workplace smoking bans to putting people in slavery.  Holy crap.  Is there any limit to your depravity?

                          •  Same Principle.... (0+ / 0-)

                            ....at least as it pertains to your crusade for "public health" as justification for a whatever-means-necessary approach to smacking cigarettes out of the mouths of smokers.  In both cases, the "civilized" group insist that only they are able to save the silly savages from their own savagery.....and it's for their own damn good!  In both cases, you fancy yourselves as better able to control their lives than they are.

                            And you didn't answer my questions regarding the extent to which your "public health" jihad applies to the other items on the list, all of which contribute to a less-than-perfect public health apparatus.  Why are those who eat canned soups any less worthy of being saved in the name of public health the cigarette smokers?  Why do you want those who become sedentary playing video games to die when we could simply criminalize video games (or impose massive new video game "sin taxes") and solve that problem?  You have alot of things to consider if you are REALLY interested in public health, ortcutt?

                    •  i caught ortcutt on this one... (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      raster44, Mark27

                      ...with the findings that demonstrate serious respiratory health consequences to children living near freeways, and the fact that juvenile consumption of caffeine is a gateway to later use of speed (find me one speed freak who wasn't guzzling down caffeinated drinks when they were a child).   Not to mention the fact that the health risks of pipes and cigars (I prefer my pipes) are so minimal they're barely worth mentioning much less going on a jihad about.

                      See, it's not about smoke and it's not about drugs.  It's specifically about tobacco smoke and about nicotine.  It's an obsessive desire to stamp out a particular behavior that's felt to be sinful.  

                      Someone should make a new Reefer Madness film, and call it "Ciggie Madness."  Complete with pictures of evil men luring innocent (white) women to take a puff, while jazz music plays menacingly in the background, and then the (white) women turning into zombies with a whole pack in their mouths at once.  And then the Knights in Shining Armor swoop down and raid the "smoke-easies" and haul the evil sinners off to prison to the tune of "Glory Glory Hallelieujah!"

                  •  And You're Also Defending..... (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    raster44, G2geek

                    ....legalized discrimination of employees based on tobacco consumption.  Please explain to me how empowering the bossman to fire employees who engage in legal activities off the clock fits in with your "protecting workers" canard?

                    •  Uhh (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm not defending it.  I think it's terrible policy for the for most employers to discriminate on the basis of smoking status.  (I do think though that health-care providers ought to hire doctors who are non-smoking.)  I'm just saying that it's legal for businesses to do so and that short of adding smoking status as a protected category, there is nothing that the state can do about that.  I guess you nanny-staters want the state to tell businesses who they can and can't hire though.

                  •  yes, and in Iran... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...they hang people by the neck, from Public Works Department cranes no less, for homosexuality.   In Saudi they stone 'em to death.  In the Taliban's Afghanistan, it was beheading, as a form of entertainment at halftime during soccer matches.  Sure, they all do it, which makes it right.  

                    Nothing like a little tribal blood-lust against sinners.  

                    •  WTF are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

                      What relevance do those have to anything we are talking about?  Has any smoker been hanged or beheaded for smoking in the US?  The hyperbole is too much.  It's frickin' hilarious the shit you guys come up with.

                      •  they were in the middle east... (0+ / 0-)

                        ....under various attempts to outlaw smoking on pain of death.

                        Here in the civilized West, we merely smother people in paperwork, and we deny them employment.  But the principle of tribalism is still at work amongst moral crusaders.

    •  amen to that. (0+ / 0-)

      There are already three technologies available for safer smoking, all of which have been around for centuries:  The cigar, the pipe, and the hookah.  There's no need to invent something new just to get a patent.  Personally I prefer a pipe.  

      I don't suppose Mr. O is willing to tolerate those among consenting adults either.  In fact in New York, you can't smoke 'em even inside a tobacco shop, while the air just outside is thick with automobile smog.  

      As for "not a protected category," neither is Marxism, meat-eating (especially grilled steaks, with their oodles of carconogens), or vegetarianism for that matter.  According to O's rationale, companies could go around firing Marxists, meat-eaters, vegetarians, etc. according to their preference.  Companies could also dictate what color you paint your house, and what flowers you grow in your yard, since these aren't protected categories either.  

      Sure, let's have the Nanny Employer right next to the Nanny State.  

  •  I'm finding the piece thoughtprovoking, (0+ / 0-)

    even where wrong.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:26:33 PM PDT

    •  careful, ben... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mark27

      ....when they take away my pipe, they'll surely go after yours even more vigorously than in the past.  When pipes are outlawed, only outlaws will have pipes.  

      General principle:  Internal Freedom.  Your body is not property of the state, nor is it property of your employer.  

      •  I wasn't suggesting it's big-picture wrong. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        and i prefer joints to pipes. handroll tobacco too.

        Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
        Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

        by ben masel on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:09:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes there does seem to be a correlation... (0+ / 0-)

          ....people who smoke pipes, tend to smoke "whatever" in pipes.

          People who like to roll 'em up, like to roll 'em up with "whatever."  

          This of course is consistent with the hypothesis that it's all about, or with marijuana at least partially about, the oral gratification factor.  Same as: some people prefer chocolate, others prefer mints.  Dammit now I've got myself wanting a peppermint pattie.  After I have a brownie.  Hmm!

      •  Who's taking away your pipe? (0+ / 0-)

        There is no major tobacco control organization that advocates tobacco prohibition.

        •  I've Never Heard You Cite a Location.... (0+ / 0-)

          ....where you don't believe that smoking should be banned.  You and Eugene were even advocating criminalizing tobacco use in private homes a few months ago lest the smell aggravate the neighbors and put their health at risk.  You also believe that cigarettes should be so artificially and prohibitively expensive that a black market would surely emerge to fill the void.  So no.....you haven't outright stated your desire to criminalize tobacco use.....you just can't come up with a single place where you believe consumption of tobacco should be legal....and you believe that the product should be artificially priced beyond the means in which consumers can afford to purchase it.  That's what rational refer to as hair-splitting.  The policies you advocated effectively do criminalize the purchase and consumption of tobacco.

          •  Umm (0+ / 0-)

            I'll have to remember that one.  If someone hasn't said where they think something should be allowed, then you can just assume they think it should be prohibited.  I'll run that by some logician friends of mine for laughs.

            I think that people should be allowed to smoke in their homes, vehicles (or private workplace without employees) if there are no minors present.  I think that people should be allowed to smoke outside anywhere except for posted places (parks, schools, beaches, transit shelters).

            I think that tobacco should be more expensive, perhaps $8 per pack or so.  Consumers could certainly buy some cigarettes at that price.

            If those policies were applied to marijuana, people would call it legalization, so why do you characterize it as criminalization?

            •  Your List of "Possible Exemptions".... (0+ / 0-)

              ....particularly with the "posted places" provision, could be anywhere.  Parks? Beaches? Why should they be any different than any other outdoor venue?  And would you seriously fail to come out in support of proposed smoking bans in homes and cars?  I'd be shocked if there was a single antismoking measure that you would actually be against.

              And cigarettes are likely to be in the $8 per pack range in most places in the country very soon, with all kinds of states pretending they want people to quit smoking even as they make themselves almost universally revenue-dependent on higher cigarette taxes.  So when they do reach the $8 per pack range, do I have your word that you're done trying to make smokers' lives hell?

        •  they sure did in NYC. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Mark27

          Can't go into a pipe shop and sample the blends.  Illegal to smoke in pipe/cigar shops.  Despite ventilation and air filters, and despite the smog on the streets just outside the door.  

          Also, Belmont California: Illegal to smoke in condos and townhouses.  Presumably the reason they exempted single family residences was because they know something about firearm ownership among homeowners and didn't want to provoke an overt rebellion.  

          All this "oh we didn't intend to outlaw it entirely" is a "who, me?" defense*, like Hollywood disclaiming copycat murderers that follow after film releases.

          ---

          *"who, me?"  Originally used with regard to malodorous flatulence (stinky farts) in enclosed spaces (such as elevators).  The idea being that if the person who did the deed looks all innocent, it can't be him/her, it's gotta' be the other guy.  

  •  How many people get carpals tunnel disease (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    G2geek, Mark27

    each year? It's a bloody health crisis, dag nabit...now stop typing!!!! And put down that donut.

    "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle

    by java4every1 on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:02:22 PM PDT

  •  What about Colorado? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    G2geek, Mark27

    Last year Colorado instituted a totalitarian smoking ban.

    When I say "totalitarian", I mean just that.  The building where I officed (we've since moved) had a smoking lounge.  It was separately ventilated -- only smokers used it.  The janitorial staff that did the cleaning were all smokers.

    But, because all indoor smoking in public buildings was banned (except, you know, for in casinos; can't drive the smokers away from their slot machines for a smoke break, eh?), the building was forced to close the lounge.

    Ditto for restaurants with separately ventilated smoking areas.  What is the harm if the wait staff in those areas are smokers?

    Oh, and actors can't smoke on stage, even if smoking is integral to the role.  WTF?  There's more environmental harm being done by the asshats driving their SUV's to the theater, than by an actor lighting up a ciggie or two, in a large space, fer christ's sake.

    These bans go far beyond public health issues and into areas of totalitarianism.

    The time for action is past. Now is the time for senseless bickering -- My T-Shirt

    by Frankenoid on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:38:38 PM PDT

    •  I suggest you... (0+ / 0-)

      look up the word "Totalitarianism".

      Second, if wait staff are allowed to enter separately ventilated smoking areas, then (1) someone can't quit smoking and still carry out that part of their job (2) either non-smokers end up going in the separately ventilated area or the smoking employees get an advantage because they will assume more risk.  Occupational Health and Safety regulations in general aren't optional.  Neither the employer not the employee can choose to waive them.  

    •  the "evil" of smoking on stage... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mark27

      ...is that it might encourage all the nonsmokers in the audience to go run right out after the play and buy a pack of cigs (or worse yet, a cigar!).  

      Yes, people have no free will, so we need minders to mind us into mindlessness.  Especially when it comes to entertainment.  

      Just wait until the new digital editing technologies go to work on the classic films!  Imagine Bogart with a celery stick!  Sherlock Holmes with a candy cane!  Winston Churchill with bubble gum!   Yes, the moral cleansing of society has only just begun...

      •  Indeed.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        ....and you'll notice ortcutt is avoiding at all costs answering my three-times-asked question about what his/her next purity crusade will be in the name of "public health"....apparently because ortcutt doesn't want to scare away those receptive to his/her smoker-hatin' propaganda by tipping them off that their "naughty" habit is next on the sin purge.

        •  no doubt it will be something... (0+ / 0-)

          ...that in some way is associated with sex, whether in the form of sexy spokespeople for the sinful activity, or rituals involving seduction, or something else.  "Do you smoke after sex?"  "I don't know, I never looked!"  

          So let's see, "candy is dandy and liquor is quicker."  I suppose that was a reference to seduction, so now we get to choose: will it be alcohol prohibition, or an anti-sugar crusade?  Maybe chocolate, let's not forget the Valentines' Day rituals involving boxes of the stuff, no doubt to seduce someone into bed.  

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