Daily Kos

My support for Hillary, despite Iraq.

Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:09:28 PM PDT

I've seen Hillary's decision to support the Iraq War Resolution criticized here many times. I was asked why I support her, despite this vote (given my moniker), so I wanted to address my support for her candidacy.

As someone who was looking out for the viability of Hillary’s Presidential candidacy, I would have recommended her vote for the Iraq War Resolution for three reasons:

  1. Part of this issue is the historical context:

The United States, following the British example since the end of World War I, had a history of supporting military strongmen in the Middle East. Saddam Hussein was just one example of this kind of recipient of American support, and the Shah of Iran was another. For most of the twentieth century, this worked to the benefit of American interests, specifically energy interests.

  1. Another part was the legal context of Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq:

Whereas members of al Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to "work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge" posed by Iraq and to "work for the necessary resolutions," while also making clear that "the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable";

http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

In retrospect, I think most Americans understand that the Bush Administration’s invasion of Iraq was much less about the alleged War on Terror than it was a settling of old scores by Neocons, despite the above (in retrospect rather Machiavellian) enumeration. When Bush was elected in 2000, I expected an invasion of Iraq during his presidency. I was amongst the demonstrators in San Francisco during the buildup to the military effort to liberate Kuwait.

  1. The third reason I believe Hillary voted for the Resolution was that I think her opinion of the endeavor was affected as those of most Americans were:

October 2002:

"While 67 percent of respondents in the Times/CBS poll said they supported the use of military force to remove Saddam Hussein. . ."

http://www.wsws.org/...

February 2003:

Only 27% opposed military action, the smallest percentage since the polls began in April of 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

March 2003:

"An ABC News/Washington Post poll taken after the beginning of the war showed a 62% support for the war. . ."

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

Graphic of the dynamic:

http://www.hist.umn.edu/...

Hindsight is 20/20. If the question is: Why do I support Hillary when I should oppose anyone who signed onto the Iraq War Resolution? The answer is that I was a supporter before the Iraq War, and while I did not agree with the decision, I was sympathetic to her reasoning behind the decision.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Iraq War (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 175 comments

  •  Flames and whatnot. n/t (14+ / 0-)

    The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

    by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:07:32 PM PDT

  •  Remember: Iraq Is Not Really "An Issue" (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Overseas, pkbarbiedoll, Leo in NJ

    Iraq is THE issue.

    "I've been an oilman all my life, but this is one crisis we can't drill our way out of" --T. Boone Pickens

    by bincbom on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:14:17 PM PDT

  •  What do you make of her recent statement (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Overseas, pkbarbiedoll, smitha007

    ... about Maliki?

  •  asdf (5+ / 0-)

    It is not her only her vote on the war (although that is part of it), it is her rhetoric since then.  She seems to be in bed with the corporatists so people are questioning her progressive credentials.  Even some of her most recent comments (on Malaki and the talk of a "new war") have caused a lot of people to raise an eyebrow.  I think people could overlook her vote on the war, but that, coupled with other Liebermannlike stances have given people pause.

    http://icasualties.org/oif/ ** 4144 **

    by BDA in VA on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:17:32 PM PDT

  •  "whereas pigs do sometimes fly out of my butt, (0+ / 0-)

    it is therefore correct to label pork, poultry."

    Anyone who advocates, supports, defends, rationalizes, or excuses torture has pus for brains and a case of scurvy for a conscience. - James Wolcott

    by rasbobbo on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:23:15 PM PDT

    •  Letting Hillary off of the hook (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      steelman, Overseas, leonard145b, smitha007

      The AUF VOTE IS NOT JUST ANY VOTE. tHE CONSWQUENCES OF THIS VOTE HAS BEEN DEVASTATING FOR OUR COUNTRY IN COST'S OF LIVES. MONEY AND OUR STANDING AROUND THE WORLD. 23 DEMOCRATIC SENATOR'S VOTED AGAINST THIS RESOLUTION.

      She didn't do her homework by not reading the NIE.
      She doesm't think her vote was a mistake, She has said nothing to indicate that her vote was wrong.

      Finally in November of 2002 A gALLUP POLL FOUND THAT 58% of THE aMERICAN POPU;ATION SAID THEY BELIEVED THAT THE bUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS GOING TO INVADE iRAQ.

      She makes  excuses that she didn't think Bush would go to war without exhausting all diplomatic means.

      I cannot support a candidate such as her with that track record and with no remorse that her vote was a mistake.

      •  my comment was meant to ridicule (0+ / 0-)

        the "whereas" & "wherefore" language of the authorization, not to let ms clinton off the hook. sorry for the confusion.

        Anyone who advocates, supports, defends, rationalizes, or excuses torture has pus for brains and a case of scurvy for a conscience. - James Wolcott

        by rasbobbo on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:53:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's a hard case to make since most of us (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pacifist, masslib

    Especially since most of us were in the 27%...I just can't understand not voting with Graham and Levin...yet I recall her speech, and Kerry's reluctance to not give the president an open hand...I think a normal president requires a sabre to rattle sometimes...also, Clinton is a true believer in the rule of law and I really think (what do I know, I can only guess) she believed the terms of the agreement were to be met and sufficient.

    HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

    by kck on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:28:04 PM PDT

  •  HRC's judgement on Iraq was no better than (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    steelman, a night owl, Stroszek

    HRC's judgement on Iraq was no better than:

    Most Americans

    GWB

    I want a better president than that.

    Obama 08

    We shall overcome, someday. Yes we can.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:28:20 PM PDT

  •  Your argument... (6+ / 0-)

    ... especially point number 3, re-enforces one of the biggest problems with Hillary - that she pays way too much attention to what polls say.  It's not much of a justification to say that Hillary was supporting the war but that's okay because so were 67% of Americans.

    Obamananaramonotophiliac

    by jamesparenti on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:29:49 PM PDT

    •  I'm comfortable with representatives (8+ / 0-)

      reflecting the will of their constituents. In a democracy, it's hard to get elected by doing things the people oppose, or refusing to do the things they want you to do.

      The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

      by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:31:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  war (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Marie, ShadowSD

        Then you would support her even if she wanted to invade Iran if the american people thought they had nuclear weapons and with no attack by Iran against the US and it;s allies.

        •  No, I would not. n/t (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Caldonia, Pluto, masslib, KnowVox

          The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

          by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:41:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  She's nt in the least signaled a (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          campskunk, Caldonia, Hairy Legs, KnowVox

          desire to go to war with Iran.  

          •  Have you read her speech to AIPAC? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Karma for All

            It contradicts your statement.

            Obama/McCaskill vs. McCain/Jindal? Call it a funny feeling.

            by ShadowSD on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:50:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Willingness to take military action (6+ / 0-)

              certainly doesn't suggest desire to, or plans to.  

              •  Using the main neocon selling point for Iran in (0+ / 0-)

                your speech does.  

                Just like the fake Saddam Hussein-9/11 connection was used to sell Iraq to Americans on an emotional basis, so is "Ahmedinejad is Hitler" the emotional groundwork being laid down for an eventual strike against Iran; the problem with that is that the Iranian President's actual statement called for destroying the state of Israel, not eradicating people for their religion, and furthermore, the President in Iran is just a figurehead while the Supreme Leader's branch of government has all the real power.

                Anyone who perpetuates that Ahmedinejad's quibble with the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 (a quibble, whether we agree with it or not, that is  shared by most people in that region of the world)  is the same as advocating genocide against the Jews is a). insulting all those who actually had to face a genocidal madman in the 40's, b.) conflating Iran to have some sort of legitimate democracy where the President is actually in control, when they are nothing but a theocratic dictatorship, and c.) setting up a strawman argument that would set the whole region aflame if it were to actually catch on.  All that, just to continue the emotionally driven narrative that will justify an Iran strike if and when it happens.  

                Clinton's reference to and perpetuation of the mistranslation in this speech does not have any alternate explanation, unless you'd care to offer one; to be fair, even Edwards disappointed me by firing off some of this rhetoric in his AIPAC speech, too.

                Obama/McCaskill vs. McCain/Jindal? Call it a funny feeling.

                by ShadowSD on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:46:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It helps to be right (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        0wn

        Popular decisions are great, unless they are wrong.
        Being wrong about making war is too wrong.

        Obama 08

        We shall overcome, someday. Yes we can.

        by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:41:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Constituents Think We Should Get Out Of Iraq! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mike Taylor

        So, by your way of thinking, Hillary, is wrong!

      •  She didn't have to STICK BY BUSH even AFTER (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Karma for All

        he made the decision to go to war, though, did she?

        She knew Bush was wrong to go in AFTER the weapons inspectors were proving war was not necessary - but she stuck with Bush's DECISION to go in. Kerry voted for IWR but promised to call Bush out if he rushed to war without doing the diplomacy and inspections follow through promised.

        Would Hillary back Kerry up on that? No.
        Did Hillary back up Kerry on Tora Bora? No.
        Did Hillary back up calls from Kerry, Dean and Clark for Rumsfeld to go after Abu Ghraib? No.
        Did Hillary want Downing Street Memos investigated? No.
        Did Hillary acknowledge Iraq was in Civil War and support withdrawal timetable BEFORE she started running for president?  No.

        Three of our best known Democrats, Bill and Hillary Clinton, and Joe Lieberman were ALL supporting Bush on his terrorism and Iraq policies from 2001-2006, and they did so DELIBERATELY to help keep Bush covered for 2004.

  •  I Was Thinking About This Just Today (6+ / 0-)

    Iraq is MY number one issue -- hell, Afganistan totally pissed me off. We were buffoons to go in there, too (chasing criminals with tomahawks, forgodsake).

    However -- I was imagining a year from now. I was imagining Hillary running against whatever hater/wingnut the Right excretes.

    I was imagining the Right (corporatocracy/MIC) running the usual fear-mongering campaign. Stepping it up, until the Sheeple are cowering in their basements -- coming out only to vote.

    I was imagining Hillary able to stand up against this because of her hawkish performance in the past.

    I was also remembering her courageous commitment to health care reform years ago.

    I was remembering she is a woman.

    The first woman president in US history.

    We need this and I think she can win.

    Just saying...

    Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

    by Pluto on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:31:18 PM PDT

  •  Disagree (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mickT, Karma for All, Mike Taylor

    and I think Clinton underestimates the potential electoral effect of that vote, and her unapologetic view of it, to her presidential candidacy's peril.

    I'm sick of it.  Sick and tired.

    Troll rate me, but in my opinion, America's been looking for new n****ers to lynch ever since the Civil Rights movement make overt black-hating unstylish.

    How in the world can we ever justify the absolute evil this country wrought upon a sovereign nation that wasn't doing shit to us, had no more relation to 9-11 than Singapore, except the fact that its inhabitants were the wrong race and religion?

    I'm so incredibly tired of this; I can't formulate an excuse for the Iraq war and the set of people who made it happen, and who now are still expressing their lack of remorse.  You have sympathy for them all you will; I have NONE.

  •  She voted for it because BILL TOLD HER TO - just (6+ / 0-)

    like Bill advised everyone in our party to get behind this action and get behind Bush on terrorism AND Iraq.

    Hillary 2008 was in operation long before 2004 race even started.

    Bush would have two terms and Hillary could be next - so happy Hill and Bill saved us from that anti-corruption, open government Democrat, John Kerry. We sure wouldn't want any of the books opened on BushInc.  Bush2 will need Clinton2 to cover for him the way Bill did for Poppy.

    This talk by historian Douglas Brinkley occurred in April 2004:

    http://www.depauw.edu/...

    Whom does the biographer think his subject will pick as a running mate? Not Hillary Rodham Clinton. [DOWNLOAD AUDIO: "VP Hillary?" 372KB]"There's really two different Democratic parties right now: there's the Clintons and Terry McAuliffe and the DNC [Democratic National Committee] and then there's the Kerry upstarts. John Kerry had one of the great advantages in life by being considered [unable] to get the nomination in December. He watched every Democrat in the country flee from him, and the Clintons really stick the knife in his back a bunch of times, so he's able to really see who was loyal to him and who wasn't. That's a very useful thing in life."

    Here's Clinton helpfully defending Bush's decisions on terrorism and Iraq in June 2004.

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    Clinton defends successor's push for war
    Says Bush 'couldn't responsibly ignore' chance Iraq had WMDs

    (CNN) -- Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

    "I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

    Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

    http://www.tpmcafe.com/...

    Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)

    By M.J. Rosenberg |

    I just came across a troubling incident that Bob Woodward reports in his new book. Very troubling.
    On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

    Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

    So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

    So what happened?

    James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.

    "Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

    "Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

    Matalin does, advising Bush that "somebody in authority needed to get in touch with J. Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio who would be in charge of any challenge to the provisional votes." An SOS goes out to Blackwell.

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    •  I liked a lot about Kerry. . . (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Caldonia, masslib

      Kerry was nevertheless a poor candidate. I'd have been MUCH happier with Edwards, and he was my pick from the beginning, last cycle. Kerry is undoubtedly an excellent human being, considers his positions carefully and has a formidable intellect, but he gives me the impression of extreme narcissism.

      The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

      by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:47:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are WRONG. And a poor judge of character if (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Marie, mickT

        that is what you have concluded.

        If he wanted to stroke his ego he would have sold out for glory YEARS ago, just like Bill and Hillary did. Protecting the bUshes and their cronies reaps the greatest benefits and perks.http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

        Doing the constant DOG work that carries with it all the criticism is what one does when they are NOT a narcissist. That was KERRY'S work uncovering and investigating IranContra, BCCI, CIA drugrunning that Bill swept under the rug for Poppy.

        Narcissists also do not risk their lives so consistently for the lives of others.

        Your posting is showing a poor judge of character, Pacifist.

        •  I'm only referring to his speaking. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Caldonia

          Did you see his speech on the floor of the Senate, explaining his decision not to run? This is an example of what I'm referring to, not a condemnation of his personal character, which I have no personal experience with.

          The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

          by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:00:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you show poor judgment - and if you (0+ / 0-)

            KNEW more about our Democratic leaders and the roles the issues they have effected over the last 30 years you certainly wouldn't be praising any Clinton while attacking Kerry.

            The Clintons have worked actively to PROTECT THE BUSHES and their cronies while there isn't a lawmaker in DC who has uncovered and investigated more government corruption than John Kerry has.

            Now - if you are a Clinton type of Democrat who WANTS the Bushes and their cronies protected at all costs, then I would expect you to weigh in against Kerry.

            Anti-corruption, open government Democrats RECOGNIZE which Democrats side with the citizens and which side with the secrecy and privilege of the powerful elite.

            You apparently have chosen sides with secrecy and privilege.

            •  Anyone who disagrees. . . (0+ / 0-)

              Anyone who disagrees with me is clearly either misinformed or stupid?

              The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

              by Pacifist on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 07:08:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No - anyone who sides with PROTECTING the Bushes (0+ / 0-)

                is a Coverup Democrat whose allegiance is to protecting secrecy and privilege over the rights of the citizens to open government.

                Anyone who sides with anti-corruption, open government Democrats sides with honest and open government that respects the CITIZENS and the CONSTITUTION.

                •  Ah, yes. It's all a conspiracy; I'd forgotten. nt (0+ / 0-)

                  The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

                  by Pacifist on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 11:12:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No. Just the way it went down. If you have other (0+ / 0-)

                    information or knowledge that others do not regarding IranContra, BCCI, Iraqgate and CIA drugrunning and the way Clinton chose to deal with those matters, then please share that information with your fellow Democrats.

                    Because you certainly can't find that info in Bill's book or in the historic record.

                    In fact, Bill doesn't mention BCCI even once in his book.  Odd, eh, considering we may end up in Iran thanks to AQ Khan and his role in BCCI operations. The biggest terrorist bank that existed with ties to Bushes, Bin Ladens, and Dubai and Bill dare not even mention it?

  •  A pacifist supporting Hillary? (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Marie, steelman, Karma for All, geph, smitha007

    You can't call yourself a pacifist and support a Hawk like Hillary. I know a lot of pacifist who are in so much pain over the war on Iraq. It was wrong and Hillary voted for the war and still supports it. She also wants to wage a war on Iran.

    "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos." - Jim Hightower

    by Hanna for Change on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:48:38 PM PDT

    •  Imagine arguing against the hawkish woman. (5+ / 0-)

      During President Clinton's Administration, I can remember people saying that no woman would ever be President because they weren't tough enough on "Defense Issues."

      The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

      by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:50:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are not a pacifist. N/T (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Marie, Karma for All

        "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos." - Jim Hightower

        by Hanna for Change on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:52:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've done violence to no one since I hit puberty. (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Caldonia, Pluto, masslib, Hairy Legs, KnowVox

          You do not speak from knowledge, on this.

          The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

          by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:54:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I absolutely do! (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Marie, Karma for All, Overseas

            No pacifist I know would ever support the war on Iraq. It is shameful that you call yourself a pacifist. Over 600,000 people died in Iraq. That is wrong!

            "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos." - Jim Hightower

            by Hanna for Change on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:00:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm a pacifist in terms of my own behavior. n/t (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              campskunk, Caldonia, KnowVox

              The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

              by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:08:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That is not a pacifist! (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Karma for All

                If it were a majority in this country could claim to be pacifists.

                Not being a pacifist myself, because I do like to leave a little wiggle room, I didn't support either of  our two latest foreign adventures.  Iraq because it was completely clear that it was not an emminent threat and Bu$hCo was lying their butts off to get their war on. Afghanistan because 1) Bu$hCo screws up everything they touch (except for stealing elections) and 2) it was a bizarre response to 9/11 - the perps were dead and finding their collaborators was a police and not military action.

                Ghandi and MLK, Jr. were pacifists.  Wouldn't have lifted a finger in defensive violence to save themselves and didn't support governments waging wars.  Read MLK, Jr's speech on why he opposed the Vietnam War(iirc 1967) - it's still relevant today.

                You are despoiling the word pacifist and we have so few words that haven't been depreciating in the last couple of decades that it saddens me to see this one go as well.

                What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                by Marie on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:37:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm sorry you're sorry. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Hairy Legs

                  I would not commit violence to save myself, either, but I also recognize that others do not feel the same way, and I make my choices only for myself.

                  In other news, I read a lot about the conduct of war, play a lot of chess, and like violent movies and video games. The only line I draw is at my own behavior. Others are free to make their own decisions.

                  The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

                  by Pacifist on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:41:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  The American people WEREN'T INFORMED (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Marie, Cecrops Tangaroa, smitha007

    People were looking to their leaders for guidance.

    The 62% support for the war was BECAUSE people like Hillary gleefully enabled Bush on this shortsighted, naive, and utterly disastrous endeavor.

    To be perfectly frank, reading some of the comments here are absolutely terrifying. There is no doubt in my mind, now, that if Bush were to get in front of the cameras tomorrow, if he were to trot out the same flimsy innuendo, the same cheap rhetoric, the same 'photographs of mobile weapons labs', some of the 'Democrats' here would support invading Iraq all over again, proclaiming it a 'wise' and 'informed' move all the way back into Iraq.

  •  Just for the sake of argument (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    a night owl

    ....I've become more and more convinced that people like who they like and it's not necessarily for any logical reason.  So I don't think I can convince you that Hillary's war vote was cynical and opportunistic.  But, people can change their opinions of political figures (I used to like Hillary and now I don't!!) so I'll try.

    One cannot really argue that there was extreme pressure on Democrats to vote for the war.  I believe it was 21 Dems who voted against it (+ Chafee and Jeffords? - don't quote me), including the Senators from the states I'm closest to, Maryland and Michigan.  So I know it didn't have to be that hard.  I believe that Clinton, Kerry and Edwards all thought it would hurt them politically to vote against it and so they didn't.  They made the wrong bet.  

    If she wasn't being cynical and opportunistic, then she was being gullible, swayed by Bush et al.  Neither position makes her someone I want running the country.

  •  Had the Clintons opposed the war (7+ / 0-)

    and joined Gore in doing so, they could have easily rallied 80-90% of more of congressional Dems to oppose the war. That's the kind of influence they had in the party. As it was, about 60% of house Dems and 45% of senate Dems voted against the war.

    Had the Dems nearly universally opposed the war, it would have become a pure Bush/neocon adventure and that's a risk Bush/GOp may not have taken (because there was a pretty good chance that the war would not go well and an even better chance that WMD would not be found).

    So you see, when there was a vacuum in the Dem leadership (which by defacto were the Clintons), they went neocon.

    Gore came out to oppose and apparently inspired some Dems in congress to stand up vote against the war resolution. Kucinich worked in the house build opposition to the war. Graham and Durbin tried that in the senate. Gore's speech was kept out of TV networks, and he was bashed mercilessly by pro-war media pundits for opposing the war.

    In fact, if you think about it, had the Clinton led the Dem leadership to broadly oppose the war, most likely, it would have influenced a good percentage of the public to side against the war. Since there was no resistance (and people like Edwards, and Clintons were going around supporting Bush's false WMD claims and the invasion), the public opinion was influenced to be as high as it was.

    In the sense, this excuse of polls is just that. and excuse. and even a self-fulfilling prophesy.