Daily Kos

On A Clear Day...You Are Definitely NOT in China

Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 04:46:58 PM PDT

As some of you know, I just returned from a nearly 3 week trip to China with my family.  I've only begun to process my impressions and thoughts about the trip, which I hope will ultimately form the basis of several diaries.

But there was one impression so deep that I felt the need to write about it even before I've fully processed it.  And it's not the impression I thought would be the deepest.  Much as I love Al Gore and long to see him on the campaign trail, I've never been terribly "green."  I reflexively support his positions on the environment and global warming because, well, he's Al Gore, and besides, they make sense.  I support them because I want my bis-bis-bis-bis-bis-bisnietos and bisnietas, born long after I die, to be able to live on Earth's surface and breathe its air and drink its water.  But I rarely feel passionate about environmental issues.  Which is another way of saying, I rarely feel truly scared about environmental issues. Spending a couple of weeks in China, however, has significantly increased my Environmental Fear Factor.

I was warned that the air quality in Beijing was bad, and even renewed a long-expired prescription for Albuterol for my once-asthmatic daughter as a precaution.  But I was unprepared for what passes for air in Beijing.  And it wasn't just Beijing; it was everywhere, including areas far from any major city.  In 17 days, we saw a blue sky only once.

Ironically, while we were away, the New York Times posted a series of articles about China, including this one  about the relationship between China's explosive economic growth and its worsening environmental problems:

Environmental degradation is now so severe, with such stark domestic and international repercussions, that pollution poses not only a major long-term burden on the Chinese public but also an acute political challenge to the ruling Communist Party. And it is not clear that China can rein in its own economic juggernaut.

Public health is reeling. Pollution has made cancer China’s leading cause of death, the Ministry of Health says. Ambient air pollution alone is blamed for hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water.

Chinese cities often seem wrapped in a toxic gray shroud. Only 1 percent of the country’s 560 million city dwellers breathe air considered safe by the European Union. Beijing is frantically searching for a magic formula, a meteorological deus ex machina, to clear its skies for the 2008 Olympics.

Environmental woes that might be considered catastrophic in some countries can seem commonplace in China: industrial cities where people rarely see the sun; children killed or sickened by lead poisoning or other types of local pollution; a coastline so swamped by algal red tides that large sections of the ocean no longer sustain marine life.

One major pollutant contributing to China’s bad air is particulate matter, which includes concentrations of fine dust, soot and aerosol particles less than 10 microns in diameter (known as PM 10).

The level of such particulates is measured in micrograms per cubic meter of air. The European Union stipulates that any reading above 40 micrograms is unsafe. The United States allows 50. In 2006, Beijing’s average PM 10 level was 141, according to the Chinese National Bureau of Statistics. Only Cairo, among world capitals, had worse air quality as measured by particulates, according to the World Bank.

I can tell you though, that reading these words (which I did only upon my return) would not have meant much to me without seeing it, and more importantly, breathing it.

Our Chinese tour guide was a delightful and thoughtful fellow with excellent English and a sense of humor, who gave us often surprisingly frank insights into the enormous changes in Chinese politics and culture over the last few decades. He offered candid views of Chairman Mao, the surprisingly poor scope of Chinese health insurance coverage, the gender imbalance caused by the government's "one child" policy, and the parameters within which "free speech" is permitted.  The environment, however, was one of only two subjects about which we quickly realized he could not speak frankly (the other was Taiwan).  Answers to our questions about it were either avoided, or answered with rote talking points, with a skill worthy (if that's the right word) of Tony Snow.  It's not smog, it's fog.  China is a humid country.  It's only like this when it's really hot.  It's only like this in the cities.   And the Yangtze River.  And towns and villages near the Yangtze River.  And in completely empty areas on or near the Yangtze River. And then, when there were too many questions, China's growth didn't cause global warming, that was caused by America and Europe and now they want to prevent anyone from catching up to them....

Such rationalizations can't obscure the truth the way that the smog obscures the half-built high-rises and cranes that crowd the hazy skylines of Beijing, Xi'an, Chongqing, Wuhan and Shanghai.  China, simply put in a tourist's terms, is a treasure chest whose contents can only be accessed while standing in a glass vault filled with smoke and sulfur.

It was not the hole-in-the-floor toilets still found in the smaller cities and towns, or the stink of the fish markets on the streets of poor neighborhoods, that made me wonder, "How can people live like this?"  It was the air, the dry itch in the back on my throat, and the almost ceaseless gray haze that hid both the sun and the clouds while holding in the sweltering heat.  

China's newspapers cover environmental problems only in terms familiar to those of us who decode White House pronouncements on the efficacy of The Surge in Iraq: an admission of "challenges" is necessarily followed by inspirational sounding descriptions of progress and hurdles overcome.  And in truth, the government is trying to deal with some of the environmental consequences of what is China's real "Great Leap Forward" of the last twenty years. It's just that many of its attempted fixes have spawned their own negative environmental consequences.  For example, China's mammoth Three Gorges Dam project is on the itinerary of many tours as a symbol of national pride and of China's commitment to controlling its environment.  We spent half a day viewing and learning about the dam, which intended not only to generate power but also to control the often catastrophic flooding along the Yangtze River and its tributaries   However, as reported by the Wall Street Journal(subscription) here and here, the dam (the world's largest) has caused unanticipated erosion, silt build-up, water pollution and landslides, even though the dam has not yet become fully operational.  (The dam also required the relocation of over a million people, which has had its own unintended environmental consequences.)

Anyway, this is just one of the things that my trip to China has moved me to think about, and hopefully, to write about. For now, I need to continue processing.  But in China, along with the Great Wall and the Forbidden City and Terra Cotta Warriors, along with emerald green rice paddies and terraced orange groves, there lies a stark warning not only of what can happen when economic growth is unconstrained by concerns about the environment, but of how environmental damage may be much harder to undo than to prevent.  For this intellectual but not-very-passionate supporter of environmental reforms, it was an eye-popping, jaw-dropping lesson.  

Tags: China, environment, air, pollution, water, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 102 comments

    •  Hen hao (7+ / 0-)

      After all, I live on the Southern California coast.

      We're all in this together.

      by JTML on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 04:49:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  When I first started learning Mandarin (7+ / 0-)

      I tried to say "ni hao ma?" to one of the guys in the food booths at the Food Court in Chinatown.

      His big smiling reply to me was. "My horse is doing very well and how is your horse?".

      These danged tonal languages are just impossible!! ;-)

      I like the silence of a church, before the service begins better than any preaching. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

      by Norwegian Chef on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:06:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  welcome! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      litigatormom, lemming22

      I loved your bizarro diary!

      check in with us environmental kossacks...its actually about all I keep up with - I just can't keep pace with each fresh outrage du jour in these interesting times we are enduring here, and this problem will be with the world long after this country solves the problems little boots left it with.

      Amazingly though, it is China that has done more to solve this unsustainability than any other country: if every couple on the planet had 1 child (and no seconds for divorcees!) we could be back at a 1 billion population by 2100!

      We need to go from the Age of Excess to the Era of Modesty.

      •  choosing to have one child also has (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Creosote, litigatormom

        unforeseen consequences...preference for sons, which crosses all cultural boundaries - sex ratio imbalances can have dire consequences

        "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

        by Pandoras Box on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:58:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was writing my comment below as you posted this (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          Very appropriate given your username.

          "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

          by litigatormom on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 07:50:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  actually, son preference varies widely (8+ / 0-)

          both within china and between most cultures. given the tools necessary for sex-selective abortion (ie. hi-def ultrasound), the impact on sex ratios are widely different in japan (slight female preference), south korea (unbelievably strong male preference) and america (more or less a wash), but also vary widely between, say, shanghai (close to even sex ratio) and guangdong or fujian (male preference that rivals the koreans).

          you are right that it has huge consequences for china, both in terms of an overall sex imbalance as well as just a rapidly greying population without a state safety net to cushion the blow to elderly couples with one child to support them.

          everything has consequences these days, both population growth and population shrinkage.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:45:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Japan has a slight *female* preference? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wu ming, Pandoras Box

            I would not have anticipated that.  I remember reading a lot of articles a few months ago on the sex-selection situation in India, where it's technically illegal to use such equipment for that purpose, but it still happens, especially with the proliferation of cheap equipment to do so.

            (-3.63, -3.03): Dkos' rabid right wing
            John McCain. The President lobbyists have been waiting for.

            by someone else on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 11:35:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yup, although very slight (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              splashy, litigatormom, Pandoras Box

              and only in the past couple of decades.

              in africa, there are tribes with strong female preferences, IIRC. matrilineal, matriarchal ones, unsurprisingly.

              i would be willing to bet that the degree of son preference varies widely in india, much as in china, but i have not seen studies on that. i suspect that castea nd regional cultures exert strong pressures in more than one direction.

              sex-selective abortion certainly reveals the intensity of various cultures' (and often, subcultures') preference for one sex over the other, and in which order (a couple sons first, then daughters? or a daughter, then a son? or just as many sons as humanly possible?).

              more often than not, strong son preference tends to correlate with patriarchal, patrilineal societies with joint-family systems, but within that there's a fair amount of difference.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 12:31:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Of course (4+ / 0-)

            Now we have to throw into the mix the growing Chinese baby industry. I've never looked at the numbers, but I've seen very few American couples pushing around male children in their strollers.

            "Almost every desire a poor man has is a punishable offense." - Louis Ferdinand Celine

            by goneblank on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:37:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  yes, i had read about female preference (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            splashy

            in Japan - it's just that son preference is so much more prevalent. It's interesting about Japan, isn't it? :)

            I'm not really sure that there's NOT a preference for sons in the US. I think it's because there are no governmental controls on reproduction - but if you look at the CIA factbook for the USA, I think for the first time (2007) there are now more males between the ages of 0 and 64 than females.  We used to have a slightly higher female population, but we are trending away from that.

            Age structure:  
            0-14 years: 20.2% (male 31,152,050/female 29,777,438)
            15-64 years: 67.2% (male 100,995,752/female 101,365,035)

            https://www.cia.gov/...

            World population figures:

            Age structure:  
            0-14 years: 27.4% (male 931,551,498/female 875,646,416)
            15-64 years: 65.1% (male 2,174,605,518/female 2,124,494,703)

            So, in the US figures for 2007, between the ages of 0 and 64:
            132,147,802 males and
            131,142,473 females

            In the figures for the entire world, between the ages of 0 and 64, there are:
            3,106,157,016 males and
            3,000,141,119 females

            So you see something missing there?
            100,000,000 women

            that is not nothing...

            "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

            by Pandoras Box on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 06:08:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A long time ago I read about a study (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pandoras Box, Wes Opinion

              that said among American couples with two children of the same sex, many more parents of two boys "tried for a girl" than parents of two girls "tried for a boy."

              I forget what the disparity was.

              "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

              by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:56:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have twin sons, and might have "tried" (0+ / 0-)

                for a girl, if I hadn't been afraid I would have twin GIRLS! :p

                Once you've HAD twins you are statistically more likely to have twins again (I don't have links - read all of that in the many, many books I read while I was pregnant, oh so long ago) and I was NOT goin' there!

                I would be interested in the study you cited, since the statistics are trending away from that.

                "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

                by Pandoras Box on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:15:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  China's attempts to control its population (4+ / 0-)

        growth are both impressive and frightening.  Unfortunately, the one child policy has been achieved not just from contraception and voluntary abortion, but also from female infanticide and abandonment (and subsequent out-of-country placements) -- and many of the voluntary abortions are gender-related as well.  Then there is the whole issue of forced abortion, which is something the Chinese press doesn't like to talk about (and which supposedly is a thing of the past).  

        Ironically, the severe gender imbalance may, in another generation or two, do more to reduce China's population than the one child policy alone, as 20% or more of young Chinese males are unable to marry and have a family. In some regions, the gender imbalance is as high as 165 males to 100 females in children under 5, and in many other areas it ranges from 116 to 125 males to every 100 females.  The "normal" gender ratio is 107 to 100.  Even among young adults, there are cities and towns where the gender balance is already seriously out of whack, with growing concern that increased numbers of forced bachelors are causing (or falling prey to) social problems such as alcoholism and violence.

        Or, the ancient Chinese preference for male children may finally end as people begin to value girls!

        This all goes to my point about how it is easier to prevent environmental problems than undo them.  China is already arguably past the point of being able to support its population -- some experts believe it's arable land and resources can comfortably support only 800 million -- half a billion fewer than it already has.  The Chinese government understandably tried to put an immediate brake on further population growth, but because its measures were (necessarily, from the point of view of efficacy) mandatory rather than voluntary, a completely different social problem emerged, and womens' civil liberties were (and possibly still are) being infringed.  

        "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

        by litigatormom on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 07:49:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Share Your Concern (0+ / 0-)

        over the population explosion.  Paul Ehrlich was prescient.  I fear that if WE don't do something, Malthus will!!!

      •  I'm stalking you... (0+ / 0-)

        We have moved to a blog because yahoo is........ just....... you know...
        http://sfkossacks.net/...

        sign up NOW!

    •  thanks for this! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box

      truly fascinating diary and excellent
      writing, as always.
      Cheers!

      Don't fear the Tux. Use Linux

      by fareast on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:25:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  LOL... you learn fast LM... anyway, welcome home (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      splashy, serrano, Pandoras Box

      and welcome to the world of green, where people think it's the issue that should be thought about and acted upon several times a day.  For me, it's the issue right behind the impeachment of Bush/Cheney and what we can do about the Democratic leadership problem we have.

      This planet is ailing and Bush doesn't care.  I know that China must stop the construction of new coal plants if we are serious about saving the planet.  Of course, just like the Bush regime, China isn't willing to do much.  

      Did you witness or feel rumblings from the students and the young people who do "get it" and are taking action?  While these friggin' governments are trying to make the climate crisis a political issue, which it really isn't.  It's about having respect for the earth.  It's about a deeper connection and knowing that the earth is part of us.  Knowing that, we take care of the earth like we take care of ourselves, our families, the children and our pets.  People are taking individual steps, both big and small, to change their carbon footprint.  Cities (like Denver have Green Groups) and Mayors like Hickenlooper are planting trees.  The efforts are taking place everywhere that people understand that we are dependent upon the earth and are willing to give up their gas guzzling SUVs and their American lifestyles.  

      Don't dispair LM... do your family, your extended family, neighbors, community, co-workers.  Do them?  Watch Inconvenient Truth with them and try to answer their questions.  Help them plan their personal efforts and let Al, Laurie David, Bobby Kennedy and the others work on China please.

      I'm very sleepy so will stop with no time to edit.  Hope my message is clear.

      •  It's hard to tell what ordinary people (6+ / 0-)

        in China think about the state of their environment -- as I said, even our tour guide, who was otherwise pretty unguarded in his comments, clammed up when asked questions about pollution.  

        Even when it came to discussing the massive relocations that were made necessary by the Three Gorges Dam project, our guide downplayed any resistance or objections.  According to him, the young people were happy about it, since it gave them the opportunity to go to larger cities, or live in new, improved housing built higher up on the banks.  Only the elderly, according to him, were unhappy about them.

        One thing that is pretty clear is that the Chinese government views the rapid expansion of the economy, with the accompanying rapid improvement in living standards, as a way of muting concern about the environmental havoc being wreaked.  Our tour guide, and the English-language China Daily (the only English language paper easily obtainable outside Beijing and Shanghai), constantly sang the praises of the government's economic programs. The China Daily is clearly "reviewed" by the government for content, and international television channels like CNN International and BBC are unavailable to ordinary citizens.**  Deng Xiaoping is spoken of in more heroic terms these days than is Chairman Mao (although Mao still has a portrait hanging in Tiannamen Square).

        In other words, the Chinese government and the Republican Party have more in common than one might think....
        _______________

        **International TV channels are available only in the big tourist/business hotels, and even those broadcasts are censored; we noticed over two weeks that almost every story about China would cause a temporary black-out of the audio and video....

        "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

        by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:06:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  U Know All the Tour Guides (4+ / 0-)

          are direct employees of the Central Govt., rite??  Ours, laughably, in Tiananmen, tried to tell me there were never disagreements or protests...even as my friend saw a Falun Gong protestor descended upon and vanished by the PLA so quickly it would make your head spin!!!

          Our trip down the Yangtze five years ago was magical (I LOVED Ghost Castle!!!), with the scenery on the shores simply breathtaking (so to speak!).  I recall vividly, tho, the HUGE piles of coal up and down the river, and the dirty muddy quality of the water throughout.  

          It seems China may be destined to be the world's environmental laboratory.  If we were smart, we would make common cause w/them to try to find new ways to resolve their overwhelming problems w/both air and water pollution....

          •  This tour guide was supposed to be (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            WI Deadhead, splashy, serrano, Wes Opinion

            an employee of the tour company who organized our land tour and river cruise.

            However, he did say he was "licensed" by the government.  And it was clear that there were certain things he was supposed to say -- or not say.  

            But he told us more about some things than I expected.  Perhaps it depends on the guide.

            "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

            by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:46:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds Like U Had a Better One (0+ / 0-)

              than we did...they also get kickbacks from the jade and other shops where they arrange "special" visits--I imagine you saw that.  

              It does amaze me the extent of their paranoia over Taiwan--quite the 'Mouse and the Elephant' story, huh???

              •  Yeah, we had a "special visit" (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                serrano, Wes Opinion

                to a jade factory and a silk factory.  I didn't mind, frankly, because the quality of the goods was more reliable than the stuff you pick up in the markets, which often isn't real, and the prices were reasonable, if not the very lowest you might find on your own (assuming you weren't ripped off altogether).

                Still, we did make one visit to an "art gallery" that I thought was a complete waste of time, which could have been better used in more time walking through Suzhou.  

                "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

                by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:14:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Caught this on the rebound ... (4+ / 0-)

      ... too late to rec, but hat tips to you.  Looking forward to more lessons and impressions from your China trip.

      Fwiw, I have been involved in competitive cycling, a sport one practices by gulping in huge quantities of air.  Most participants live in cities.  For awhile I lived in one known for its ozone and particulate pollution.  The particulate numbers cited in the NYT article are, if you know anything about particulate pollution, and especially if you exercise, jaw-dropping.  I wouldn't advise any athlete to go up a flight of stairs in such air, let alone train, or compete.

      Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

      by Yellow Canary on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 06:34:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Much Particulate Pollution Probably (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        WI Deadhead

        traceable to the rampant construction under way.  Here in Phoenix, we are belatedly trying to enforce watering of dirt during construction projects.  I am pretty sure no such enforcement is taking place in China...

        •  According to both our guide and several (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          WI Deadhead, serrano

          newspaper articles we saw in China (which meant they were government approved), China is responsible for close to 25% of all current construction in the world.

          "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

          by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:58:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Even More Staggering.... (0+ / 0-)

            tho not unbelievable, considering the high-rises, I was told that they had 80% of the construction cranes in the World!!!

          •  Btw, In Response to Your Earlier Comment.... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            WI Deadhead, splashy, litigatormom

            I found that trip five years ago changed my consciousness and perception of not only China, but the World forever!!!  It was simply fascinating on so many levels.  The artwork (tho all of the good stuff is in repose at the Chiang Kai-Shek Museum in Taipei--that's why the Forbidden Palace looked so bare-naked) is beautiful, the scenery breathtaking.  

            I find it unbelievable I was never told anything at all in school about Chinese culture or history, even as we were forced to memorize every boring detail of European history!!!  

            I am personally committed to altering that legacy, sharing my impressions and enthusiasm w/all the young people I can talk with.  We plan to return next year, and I hope to take my 18-year-old niece with me.

            •  Chinese history is so different than Western (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              WI Deadhead, serrano, Wes Opinion

              history, and though my kids were exposed to it much more than I was in school, we are all pretty ignorant of it.  I really want to learn more.

              "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

              by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:11:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I Was Incredibly Fascinated by Xian... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                WI Deadhead

                and the Terra Cotta Warriors.  In fact, Emperor Qin Xi-Huang (a small version of him, at least) still sits in my living room.  

                What an incredible historic figure--equally brilliant and brutal!!!  He began the Empire and the Great Wall, initiated their systems of measurement and currency, and had all of those fantastic sculptures made!!!  I'm pretty no society has ever created so much original artwork in such a brief period of time.  Can u imagine the percentage of artists they had???!!!

                •  The Terra Cotta Warriors blew me away (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  serrano, Pandoras Box

                  I had no idea they were displayed en situ, in a vast room that really gave you the sense of an army read to come to life.  Did you know that every one of those warriors has a different face?

                  "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

                  by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 12:31:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes--Isn't That Incredible!!! (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Pandoras Box

                    Basically, at least 4000 individual sculptures!!!  Qin Xi-Huang had a stunning set of achievements, on par w/any figure I can think of in the World...and the entire treasure trove, advanced as it was, was discovered in 1976 by two guys digging a water well w/a stick!!!

                    Standing at the edge of that pit is something I will never, ever forget!  I hope it made an impression on your kids and encourages them to study more about this fascinating civilization!!!

    •  Wo Hen Hao, Xie-Xie!!! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      litigatormom

      Sorry you didn't make it to Chengdu, our Sister City and home to the Pandas.  Even tho the area around it has most of the sparse forests in China, the air there, too, is usually bad.  A schoolteacher we spoke with told us that people are desperately trying to move out into the country.

    •  wow, excellent diary (0+ / 0-)

      I lived in Beijing during the summer of 2000. The air was every bit as filthy and gross then, although I didn't really process it in my mind at the time quite as much as you have here. A very clear memory is the day I looked around me - towards the end of my 2 mos there - and saw a clear sky and mountains surrounding Beijing. Every single person in our group was shocked. We're surrounded by mountains? We never knew. We had never seen them before. The smog renders them entirely  invisible.

      Thanks for this diary and I look forward to your future diaries on China.

  •  Interesting (5+ / 0-)

    I heard the average life span for a traffic police man in Beijing was around 39 or 40 years old due to his exposure to poor air quality.  

    Our country and China need to do something quickly together to reduce air & water pollution. Bush could care less and will not do anything, but all of our candidates need to address this problem.

    Thanks for sharing about China.  

  •  litigatormom as canary! (6+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the report.

    Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

    by andgarden on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 04:59:47 PM PDT

  •  I pray a M7.8 Dam Induced Earthquake (8+ / 0-)

    Doesn't end up causing a total catastrophe.

    The 3 Gorges Dam was recommended against by none other than Cal Tech seismologist Charles Allen. I personally talked to Professor Allen about the risks and they are frightening. A dam burst could kill unfathomable numbers of people.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:00:38 PM PDT

    •  Even without an earthquake (8+ / 0-)

      it has destabilized some of the surrounding areas.  Part of the impetus for the dam was "clean power" -- right now, China is still very dependent on coal, and certain industrial stretches of road resemble the road into Mordor.  There is also an obsession with controlling floods, which ruined crops and dispossessed hundreds of thousands every few years.  So they dispossessed 1.3 million people permanently, and submerged some of the better farmland.  An acceptable trade off if there weren't other dire consequences -- who knows?  But with all the questions, it's scary.  

      I did not get many pictures of fisherman on the Yangtze because most of the Yangzte -- indeed, large stretches of many of China's rivers -- no longer yield edible fish.  There were curiously few bugs on the river (I came armed with "Off!" and never used it) and very few birds anywhere.

      This wasn't a miserable trip through an airless void, and I don't mean to make it sound like that.  I was simply unprepared for the extent of the problem, and the coincidence of seeing the NYT and WSJ stories upon my return has gotten me thinking.  I wish I knew more about this stuff.

      "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

      by litigatormom on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:22:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for your sharp eye and curiosity. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box

        though this is profoundly sad:

        very few birds anywhere.

        •  Mao considered small birds (7+ / 0-)

          one of four pests which he ordered destroyed

          Villagers were told to rush out to the fields, banging on pots and pans and screaming at the tops of their voices.

          The sparrows took to the air, and as the pandemonium continued, stayed there, too terrified to land, until they dropped dead from exhaustion.

          The only trouble was that sparrows are a vital link in the food chain and are particularly fond of locusts. With no sparrows left to eat them, there was a plague of locusts, the crops were ruined and millions of people died in the ensuing famine.

          I suppose the bird populations have not recovered since that time. When I was in China I thought I saw a bird one day, turned out it was a black plastic bag caught on the wind.

          None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe

          by limaike on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:03:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  birds a plenty (5+ / 0-)

          Outside my Beijing apartment I see birds everyday. 100s of them perch on trees above the sidewalk at night. At worst you can't see them up there which make walking dangerous without an umbrella or the courage to walk on the street and not under them. Because they are big and black I assume they are magpies or crows (hard to tell at night).

          Also lots of sparrows.

          I blog about Beijing pollution sometimes. Also have lots of pics of tourist sites but looking back at them I'm disappointed in the lack of sunshine in them all. Otherwise I'm sure they'd be great.

          On another notes, we've lots of sunshine the last couple weeks since they took about 33% the cars off the for those 4 days.

          "Gorbachev sings tractors: Turnip! Buttocks!" - Bloom County

          by NorthAndEast on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:27:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only place I saw birds in any quantity (4+ / 0-)

            was in Shanghai, of all places. Didn't see them in Beijing at all, although we were staying in the Hilton on the Third Ring road in the Chaoyang district, which is practically a single huge construction site.  But what struck me was that there were few birds even in the big open spaces like Tiannamen Square (compare that to Trafalgar Square, which is overrun with pigeons), or in the park surrounding the Temple of the Heavenly Gate, where I expected to see lots of birds.  You could hear the crickets (loudly) but no birds.

            Maybe we were there during a bad time.  We were in Beijing in the middle of the month, at the start of the trip, so perhaps it was before the driving bans had any affect. We were there on one of those days, and the sky seemed just the same.

            And yes, tourist pictures suffer.  Even our pictures of the Great Wall aren't as spectacular as they should be, because of the pollution -- it shows up on the photos even more than to the naked eye.

            "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

            by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:13:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOVE Shanghai!!! (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              litigatormom

              What a truly great, world-class city, huh???  Complete w/famous jazz bars--very cosmopolitan.  You can understand why it is the cradle of most of the positive 'freedom' developments in the last 20 years!!!

              •  Shanghai reminded us of NYC (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                WI Deadhead, serrano

                The energy, the bustle, the sophistication.  The new, Pudong district, where skyscrapers are being built by the hour, it seems, looks a bit like something out of Buck Rogers or Star Trek, while the older part of the city, across the river, has streets that look like something out of London or Paris.

                My husband and I are already planning to go back.  We're not usually tour people, but we thought that with the kids it would be hard to navigate the country by ourselves, and that was probably right.  But we could have used more time in Shanghai -- we really didn't get a chance to sample the growing art scene there, or eat at the more adventurous restaurants.  

                "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

                by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:51:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I Had the Same Impression!!! (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  WI Deadhead

                  The Pudong/Old Shangai contrast is truly otherworldly.  Old Shangai is very textured and enchanting.  Did u happen to catch the replica of our White House???  Kinda strange, but it's an Art Museum/Workshop.  

                  At the end of our trip, we were only in Shanghai overnite, and instantly regretted the brevity of the visit.  For next year, we plan three days there--should be much more satisfying!!!

    •  I just watched a Discovery channel special (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cdreid

      on the Three Gorges Dam - it really was frightening.  They talked about how it was built on or very near a fault line, and as if that wasn't bad enough, the weight of the water behind the dam was very likely all by itself to CAUSE earthquakes.

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 04:43:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  None of the troubles with the dam (4+ / 0-)

        were discussed when we had our tour.  It is described as an engineering wonder that will have huge benefits.  

        It probably is an engineering wonder.  However, it is already having unintended consequences in terms of silt build-up, destabilization of the new shorelines, increased sewage problems, etc.

        Sadly, the increased depth of the Upper Yangzte also reduces the height of the Three Gorges and the Lesser Three Gorges, one of China's great scenic tourist sites.  Indeed, parts of the Lesser Three Gorges will be reduced to almost nothing.

        "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

        by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:17:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  :::sigh::: unintended consequences (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          litigatormom

          will be the undoing of us all

          "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

          by Pandoras Box on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:21:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We Had a Wonderful Picnic Stop (0+ / 0-)

          at Lesser Three Gorges--the guys maneuvering the smaller tour boats were very skilled, and most gracious as they shared this special treat w/us!!!

          I still remember the monkeys we caught glimpses of along the banks!!!

          •  My daughters spotted some monkeys (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            serrano

            but I only saw a few mountain goats.

            The Lesser Three Gorges were beautiful, more impressive in a way because the tributary river (the Dana???) is much narrower than the Yangzte.  But the cliffs are not as high, and there are stretches of lower lying land, some of which has already been submerged, more of which will be.  Sad.

            "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

            by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:01:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did They Show You (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              WI Deadhead

              the mountain passages of the ancient messengers???  They inserted wooden poles into holes in the steep mountain walls, then removed them as they traversed the area, removing them as they went so they couldn't be followed---fascinating!!!

  •  Environment tag added for DKos Environmantalists (5+ / 0-)

    Welcome to the large group here concerned about the environment. Our lives truly depend on it.  Clean air and clean water cannot be taken for granted.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:05:17 PM PDT

  •  I could have saved you some $$. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Creosote, Pandoras Box

    I grew up in one of the smoggiest areas in the US in the 60s and early 70s.  Don't need to tell me what it's like to feel your lungs burn and eyes stinging from the smog.  The air quality where I grew up has improved slightly in the past few decades.
     These days you can see similar heavy smog problems in the CA Central Valley (from outdated farm equipment belching out diesel fumes, plus pesticides, not to mention traffic issues of urban sprawl.)

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:09:56 PM PDT

    •  i was just in bakersfield a week ago (7+ / 0-)

      which had the added pollution of the zaca fire's smoke, and while it was iunbearable, i have to say that the air was cleaner than nearly any chinese city, with the possible exception of kunming (and hong kong, if you count it as china).

      as bad as things are in the states, they do not hold a candle to chinese pollution. sometimes it is difficult to see across major intersections, the air is so bad.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:48:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Puebla, Mexico, Too!!! (0+ / 0-)

      A few years back I was in Puebla, which is an incredible city (can u say Mole??!!), but, as a very old Colonial City, has narrow streets.  As Mexico does not yet have our emission standards and VW's are built in Puebla, I had an unpleasant deja vu---the same sick smell I recalled from childhood in the late 50's and 60's.  

      We desperately need to 'progress' this world together!!!

  •  China is the part of the carbon equation (4+ / 0-)

    that really gives me pause. When a quarter of the planet is running on 19th-century energy technologies, whatever the rest of us do isn't going to be enough. We have to help solve their problems as well as our own, or the rest will still be for naught.

    •  China's insistence on pursuing rapid growth (6+ / 0-)

      and postponing consideration of environmental issues is, of course, one of Bush's justifications for nixing the Kyoto accords.  Because why should we have to reduce carbon emissions while the Chinese get a "free ride"?  

      Of course, Bush's position allows the Chinese leadership to rationalize the continuation of what they are doing.  China's status as a developing vs. developed country is confusing, even to the Chinese.  There is enormous pride at the modernity of portions the major cities -- parts of Shanghai look like something out of Star Trek -- and an insistence on being taken seriously as a major power in the international community.  

      And yet, even among sophisticated city people, there is a tendency sometimes to see themselves as backwards.  And then, of course, there remains staggeringly poor communities -- some in the city, someone outside -- where life really does remain in the 19th century.

      "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

      by litigatormom on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:28:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just to clarify (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Creosote, litigatormom, Pandoras Box

        I didn't mean that China is backward technologically anymore. I'm sure you saw much evidence to the contrary (and practically every object in an American household says otherwise nowadays). Our own manufacturing base is lackluster by comparison — don't have to look further than the auto industry for an example where we lag.

        But the William Gibson quote definitely applies: "The future is already here, it's just unevenly distributed." China's coal-based economy is not only hurting them, but the rest of the planet as well. And as the (debtor) drivers of so much of China's manufacturing, we have consider our portion of responsibility for their pollution alongside that for our own direct pollution.

        Among the great what-if's of a 2000 Gore presidency is the difference it might have made to the planet had we signed the Kyoto treaty and proceeded from there. China and India were exempt from the accord caps, but politically it might have made a big difference in those countries. Currently there are 2000 coal powerstations operating in China, on the order of one new one built every week, and plans for at least 500 more. That's a scary summary link by the way; America has long been the planet's most disruptive country ecologically, but as you note here, China is about to give us serious competition for the title.

    •  the spark of hope in china (5+ / 0-)

      is that their infrastructure is not built in a way that locks in as massive a demand for oil as our economy, so there is more potential for radical change away from the status quo than we have here, since our sunk costs demand that we use cars or else abandon whole cities.

      that, and their problems are bad enough that people notice them, and have a government that can, if it has to, mobilize a hell of a lot of force to change course.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:52:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Engage China thru more Mandarin in schools (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    litigatormom, fareast

    How to deal with China is, of course, the big issue for us across the 21st century. The solution to all global problems, from terrorism, to energy, to pandemics, to global warming, involve China centrally.  So, how do we influence China. I have no simple answer, but, it seems to me, we start with teaching many more of our children Mandarin and sending them to study abroad in China. Then hope that their better understanding of China will lead to some break throughs.

    •  joint-ventures on solar panels and wind farms (4+ / 0-)

      with technology transfer to sweeten the deal. offer the government as much help as possible in insulating houses and other conservation measures. sell environmentalism as the most advanced aspect of modern societies.

      it can be done. but learning mandarin isn't a bad idea either, if just to listen as much as we try to convince. there's a lot of churn on the issue over there.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:54:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Kids Are Ready!!! (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      WI Deadhead, splashy, litigatormom

      I spoke this summer w/classes of inner-city kids, and was pleasantly surprised to find them remarkably open to the world, fascinated by other languages (say something in Chinese!!!), and totally absorbed by the photos I shared w/them of China (some really didn't want to give them back!!!).  

      I see Mandarin classes spreading very rapidly, and that's a good thing!!!

      •  My daughter, whose Spanish is even (5+ / 0-)

        sparser than mine, despite earlier school study, has thus far shown more passion for studying Latin than any other language.  But she was very intrigued by Chinese, and is thinking of trying an intro course when she goes to college.

        Maybe it's just because I am older, but learning the language is a daunting prospect.  How to you learn to write a language that has 64,000 characters (or even the 2500 needed for "minimal fluency), or to speak a language in which the same word has a different meaning depending on which of four (or seven, in Cantonese) is used?

        And yet, knowing Chinese is going to be a huge advantage for the next generation.  So maybe we should be ditching the French lessons and substituting Mandarin for middle schoolers.

        "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

        by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:06:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Forget the Cantonese (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          WI Deadhead

          Putonghua ("People's Language"), or Mandarin, is now being universally-taught, and has become China's lingua franca.  I have been a student for several years, and find the characters daunting.  

          The conversational stuff isn't as bad, tho.  U get used to the tones, and mastering a large handful of basic words and phrases will get you a long way, and engender much respect and appreciation.  When they ask if you really speak Mandarin, just say, "Nali, Mama Huhu"--that will provoke an appreciate laugh!!!  Literally, that means, 'horse, horse, tiger, tiger", but is understood to mean, "Naw, just a little bit"!

          I would encourage your daughter to revisit the Spanish somewhat.  I am fluent in it, and find its impact to be growing exponentially.  The Latin may help a lot, tho I couldn't bring myself to study a dead language....

          •  She's still studying Spanish (0+ / 0-)

            but she LOVES Latin.  She may actually wind up being a classics major -- if she doesn't end up taking political science.

            "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

            by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 10:13:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Proselytising Romanophile... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pandoras Box

              ...I've found Latin to be the most useful language I've ever studied (I've studied way too many--living and threatened and long-ago expired). It's an excellent basis for learning any other Romance language and for easily gaining at least a reading/passable understanding of all of them--moreover, because learning Latin requires assembling and disassembling word forms and seeing how different groups of words interrelate, it's also an excellent way of learning how to think about the underlying structure of any language's grammar. It's an accessible route to understanding the evolution of how humans speak in general, if taught well and in context with other ancient cultures. Supplement Latin with Mandarin, Japanese, other languages certainly, and certainly with a language that requires understanding of non-Roman writing. Well, do all that if you're as much a fiend about languages as I am. I'm afraid I even enjoy learning programming languages.

              I was surprised when I went into publishing to discover that the best editors (at least, the ones to whom all our weird English grammatical rules made the most sense) were the ones with a background in Latin, not English. And, what can I say, ancient Rome is just such a fun playground.

              Double majors are good, too!

  •  I was there (4+ / 0-)

    I saw it too, when I was in China 2 years ago. The smog was so bad, you couldn't see across Tienamen Square, and by 2 in the afternoon, you could look at the sun only through a very smoky haze--like it was an eclispe. I can't believe the Olympics are going to be held there: you might as well have them in a coal mine. No sports records will be broken--except in negative ways.

    Also, check out Beijing Wide Open for a Tibetan activist's take on the upcoming games.

    "Zen: Infinite respect for all things past; infinite service to all things present; infinite responsibility for all things future."--Huston Smith

    by Maggie Pax on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:45:15 PM PDT

    •  One of the measures Beijing is planning for the (4+ / 0-)

      Olympics -- which are already being tested several times a week -- are partial bans on commuting by car.  We were in Beijing on one of those days.  Traffic did not seem sigificantly reduced, and there was no apparent effect (at least not immediately) on air quality.  The car bans will become more frequent as the Olympics approach, and the government will apparently also close down many if not most factories in the area (a benefit of a centrally planned economy).  

      But even with all that, I can't imagine having to run or bicycle outdoors in Beijing even if there were some improvement in air quality. Nothing the government does it going to make the air quality good. Currently, as the NYT article points out, Beijing's air is THREE TIMES as bad as Los Angeles's.  Will the atheletes be okay if its only TWICE as bad as LA?   Not to mention that, every day we were in China, it was over 95 degrees Fahrenheit.  

      "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

      by litigatormom on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:00:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  one crazy thing (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box

      is that when i was there in 2002-3, the air in beijing was actually better than i remembered it in 1997. not that it wasn't horrendous, but just that there seemed to be some small improvement, accomplished from what i could figure out from exiling several factories to the hebei countryside.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:56:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  See pic of mine from Beijing. . . (5+ / 0-)

    This (below) is from two summers ago (taken
    around 6:30-45 a.m.).  

    And this one is from last summer:

    Haven't been there yet this year, but hoping to go soon.  Yes, I'm afraid that the Marathoners (let alone just your good ol' ordinary everyday residents) will be dropping like flies next summer...

    BenGoshi
    ____________________________________________________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 09:44:19 PM PDT

    •  not sure what to make of that first picture (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box

      is that in b&w or is that how it actually looks, colourless and gray ?

      "To you, I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen

      by soros on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:09:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's b/w, but not much different... (0+ / 0-)

        from how it actually looked "in color".

        Second one is in mid-afternoon on a non-overcast day -- meaning that that's just good ol' smog making it gray.

        BG
        _____________________________________________________________________

        "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

        by BenGoshi on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:34:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  China's environmental "problems"... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cdreid, Pandoras Box

    There are at least two books in our University Library devoted to the oncoming ecological catastrophe(s) in China (that's why I put the word "problems" in quotation marks).  I don't remember the names of the books (I read them several years ago) but the message was clear - China is despoiling its environment at a breathtaking rate.  It is not just air pollution - it is the destruction of its soil, it's aquifers, it's waterways, and etc.  Both books predicted severe problems in food production, and potential health problems due to inadequate water quality as well as the more visible air pollution - and both predicted these adverse effects taking place in the near future.  

  •  Good Diary...glad I saw it in the Diary Rescue. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    WI Deadhead, splashy, Pandoras Box

    I do wish you had posted some pictures though:)

    "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG

    by Mr SeeMore on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 10:07:40 PM PDT

  •  Complex country (4+ / 0-)

    I have been a student of China my whole adult life and I know I won't ever figure it out.  Much too complicated for me.  

    You could have done a separate diary on their labor woes, land use, local corruption, censorship and media intimidation, energy shortages or internal language barriers.

    However, as we look with horror at all of their problems, lets remember that over the past 25 years, they have brought about 400 million people out of poverty. That counts for something.

    •  I'm fascinated beyond description by China now (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      serrano, Pandoras Box

      I went there as a casual tourist, but upon my return I went out and bought a book written by a professor of Chinese history at Yale, Jonathan Spence (I never took his course), which serves as a textbook for his course on Chinese history from the Ming dynasty forward.  I had read some very brief summaries on Chinese history before we left, but I want to learn a lot more.

      And yes, there are a lot of different issues that could be written about, but I'm realizing that I need to do more research about them before I write. The pollution issue was the thing that struck me most deeply, and could be written about (at least initially) based on personal observation.

      "Mom, did you hurt yourself, or are you yelling at the TV again?

      by litigatormom on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:25:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you want a very interesting book on China (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        WI Deadhead, serrano

        Try "Harmony in Conflict - Active Adaptation to Life in Present-day Chinese Society".

        It was written a few years ago but it is a very interesting look at the internal workings of Chinese culture and society.

        As for pollution I remember living in Taiwan when we had levels of 385 on the index (over 50 is not good). I could not even see the building across the street and I swear you could slice the air with a knife. What was interesting was at that time it was still under martial law and the pollution index was deemed a national secret (at least the current day's index was). So you would read in the paper " You should not have gone outside yesterday as pollution level were excessive".  But progress has been made and pollution in Taiwan is much better than it used to be.

        I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

        by taonow on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:03:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  MUCH Better!!! (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          WI Deadhead, taonow

          And they boast a truly outstanding Subway/Train system that made $750,000 PROFIT its very first year in operation!!!  I had the chance to tour and ride on it, and it's fabulous!!!

          We were there from Phoenix to learn and WE DID!!!

          I know Taipei is dense in population, but that still knocked the Hell out of the conventional wisdom that Mass Transit ALWAYS loses money!!!

  •  My environmentalism (5+ / 0-)

    came (at a young age) but under semi-similar circumstances.

    I grew up "in the woods". Always near them at the least and spent uncounted hours doing what we now call "hiking". Back then they called it "he's off running through the woods like an idiot again".

    Then as a teen i moved w family in coal country Kentucky. (The apalachians). And saw the real effect. Not one building that wasnt covered with black coal dust. "Streams" so full of sulphur that the absolute only thing that would live in them were tadpoles and cat tails. Large areas that had once been beautiful and wild now slate wastelands. Think of a land made up of slightly oily, black fish scales. Rock that rotted over time. It makes you see the point of view of those who see human beings as a virus. A disease of the planet.

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

    by cdreid on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:22:25 AM PDT

  •  Smoggy fog! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    WI Deadhead, Pandoras Box

    There is a shred of truth to what the guide said about the fog. Makes photographing the landscape frustrating...

    Haven't been back to Beijing recently to check, but my first time there was ten years ago and the pollution was the worst I've experienced to date. One of the few places I've been where I literally could not breathe at the top of an